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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan (Read 7610 times)
George W. Maschke
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Proposal for APA Election Debate
Reply #15 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 11:12am
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If there is interest, I would be willing to host and moderate a debate on the upcoming American Polygraph Association elections. This would be done via Google Hangouts and would be streamed live online. Questions for the participants could be submitted in advance, and after the debate, the video would be made available on YouTube. This could be arranged as early as, say, this coming Saturday at 1 PM Eastern time.

My moderation policy would be similar to that applied to this message board. I would not cut off or mute anyone's microphone for saying something with which I disagree. I would, however, discourage personal attacks or ad hominem argumentation. The goal would be to foster civil discourse and afford each participant a full opportunity to express his or her views.

If Daniel, Jamie, or any of the other candidates in the upcoming APA elections would be interested in this, please drop me a line at maschke@antipolygraph.org at your earliest convenience.

In the alternative, the APA could host such an online public debate itself. But I suspect the same concerns about moderation policy that Raymond mentioned in connection with the APA message board would also apply to an online event such as this.



  

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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #16 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 4:04pm
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George, that is most generous.

Deal me in for a one-on-one debate with my opponent for APA president elect, Jamie McCloughan.

What say you, "dedicated to truth" APA establishment politicos -- especially Mr. McCloughan. Are you ready to break some new ground?

[cue crickets]
  
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Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #17 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 9:09pm
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George W. Maschke wrote on Jun 13th, 2016 at 11:12am:
If there is interest, I would be willing to host and moderate a debate on the upcoming American Polygraph Association elections. This would be done via Google Hangouts and would be streamed live online. Questions for the participants could be submitted in advance, and after the debate, the video would be made available on YouTube. This could be arranged as early as, say, this coming Saturday at 1 PM Eastern time.

My moderation policy would be similar to that applied to this message board. I would not cut off or mute anyone's microphone for saying something with which I disagree. I would, however, discourage personal attacks or ad hominem argumentation. The goal would be to foster civil discourse and afford each participant a full opportunity to express his or her views.

If Daniel, Jamie, or any of the other candidates in the upcoming APA elections would be interested in this, please drop me a line at maschke@antipolygraph.org at your earliest convenience.

In the alternative, the APA could host such an online public debate itself. But I suspect the same concerns about moderation policy that Raymond mentioned in connection with the APA message board would also apply to an online event such as this.


  Actually what I proposed was cutting off microphones when attacks become personal or when people started talking over one another.  Drives me nuts when people of that.  Also, no dodging questions from either side.  Answer the question, or be called out on it. 

That went for both people.  It's a debate, not a three ring circus.  If we want a three ring circus, watch a trump/clinton debate.

My offer was for a fair independent, and unbiased debate.  People didn't like that idea. 

With all due respect to everyone here, both sides will only debate, when the rules favor one side over the other.  Starting to learn, that is how things go in this business
  

Joe
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #18 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 9:58pm
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If Mr. McCloughan doesn't have the stones to debate me, he should withdraw from the race.
  
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Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #19 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 10:24pm
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Dan Mangan wrote on Jun 13th, 2016 at 9:58pm:
If Mr. McCloughan doesn't have the stones to debate me, he should withdraw from the race.


Oh come on Dan.  You know I agree with you so much, but seriously? 

I was working on a deal that could have made it possible.  He is not doing to debate (speculating) when there is nothing in it for him, and in a debate structor which has an appearance (no offense GM, this is how they probably see it) of being biased.  Frankly, you had a way better chance of you letting me arrange it than here.

I personally want to see one happen.  I think it would give the voters a better understanding of the dynamics going on.  Moreover, I think it gives both parties more than 500 words for their platform, and questions can be asked and answered. 

If you think that calling him out like this will work, think again.  It's human nature man, there is nothing in it for him.  Personally, I think it would benefit both of you
  

Joe
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Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #20 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 10:25pm
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most of all it would benefit the members
  

Joe
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #21 - Jun 14th, 2016 at 2:07am
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Joe, I appreciate your interest to facilitate a debate, or even provide a solo platform, to bring more exposure to the APA election process.

But the fact is that www.antipolygraph.org is the Ferrari of polygraph-information web sites. It has masterful administration, worldwide recognition, and a highly regarded history going back more than 15 years.

In other words, www.antipolygraph.org has gravitas -- street cred.

By contrast, your Internet resources are like a wheezing Yugo -- at least audience-wise -- yet you insist on copyright restrictions(!).

Think I'll pass.

Look, Joe... If you can get Mr. McCloughan to participate on your channel, I'm all in. Otherwise, I'll stick with a proven forum that's far better equipped to get the word out.

-----------------------------

Meanwhile, I find it interesting that the "dedicated to truth" APA establishment politicos scatter like cockroaches when faced with the harsh light of scrutiny.

In all fairness, Mr. McCloughan may be busy with the functions and festivities related to the American Association of Police Polygraphists national shindig, which is taking place this week at the Mohegan Sun casino and resort in Connecticut.

As an aside, I'm always amused when polygraph seminars are held at casinos. It seems most fitting, given the crapshoot nature of the "test".

I'm hopeful, that, over the next few weeks, Mr. McCloughan will be man enough to debate the APA-election issues with me -- anywhere on the world wide web for the public to behold.

  
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Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #22 - Jun 14th, 2016 at 3:38am
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First, you came to me.  I didn't write that email.  You asked for a debate, took it upon my self to facilitate that you get treated better than I did.  My mistake, I apologize for even trying.  I now totally get why some of the other responses were curmudgeonly.  Maybe I should learn to do the same.  With age comes experience, it's a hard lesson to learn; but like drinking orange juice after brushing your teeth, one that we all have to relearn the hard way. 

I tried to give ya the vocal forum and linked it here.  You had your cake and could have ate it too.   

You say you want the forum, but, it was just handed to you, and linked to here for all to hear.  I am just to a point, where I think you don't want to debate; you want a debate or platform where you have the advantage and control so you can dictate the narrative and agenda.  That is not how debates work.

You aren't even trying anything else to make him want to debate you, other than shooting your mouth off here.  And even then, all you can say is

Dan Mangan wrote on Jun 13th, 2016 at 9:58pm:
If Mr. McCloughan doesn't have the stones to debate me, he should withdraw from the race.


Seriously?  That is all you have to convince him? 

Dan, what is in it for him to debate you?  That is the real question.  He has this locked up so far as he is concerned.  Even you acknowledge you know you'll lose.  What kinda person runs knowing he is going to lose, and not at least try to pull off an upset?

Oh and as the copyright talk, well never mind. 

Done with this.  Have fun. 

Back to handling real issues and corruption in the industry. When you get done thinking little bugs are tough, come on down and try fighting a gorilla and her trained chimps.  The APA is the least of the Industry's problems.
« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2016 at 6:23am by Joe McCarthy »  

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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #23 - Jun 14th, 2016 at 10:53am
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Joe McCarthy wrote on Jun 14th, 2016 at 3:38am:
The APA is the least of the Industry's problems



Indeed, the APA has, to a great extent, fueled the polygraph indu$try. Here are some reasons why...

> A fifteen-year claim of 98% accuracy

> Home-grown "Model Policies" that have little in the way of scientific foundation

> Staunch resistance to a bill of rights -- similar in spirit to those in the medical and mental health fields -- for polygraph test-takers, to elevate informed consent and minimize potential harms

> An industry-insider culture that is insular, closed-minded and self-protective

> Continued avoidance of a countermeasure challenge


People, it is time to eradicate the APA's self-made legacy of unrealistic expectations, and be forthright about the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph “testing.”

As American Polygraph Association president elect, I will work tirelessly to bring truth, honesty and accountability to the APA, and to the entire polygraph profession. Members, please join me. 

And Mr. McCloughan, should you ever muster the courage to debate me -- preferably out in the open -- I'll be waiting.

  
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #24 - Jun 14th, 2016 at 11:19pm
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You know, I should thank you for not calling in last night.  it seems I hit some sore spots in Texas with what I said, while waiting on you to man up (so to speak) 

I will clarify tonight.  Who knew using this format of media would have gathered the most response I have been looking for over the past two years when people started telling me this was an issue for the courts.

Anyway, have to set up the pod cast.
  

Joe
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #25 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 12:43am
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New for the 2016 American Polygraph Association election cycle is the use of Dropbox, an online file-hosting service.

Dropbox is the APA's chosen venue -- available to its members via the "2016 APA Elections" page on the APA web site -- for posting each candidate's 500-word statement and photo, prior to the electronic elections which run from July 3-9.

Also enabled via Dropbox is a dialogue mechanism, ostensibly for APA members to post comments and/or questions in the run-up to the election proper.

On the Dropbox pages for both myself and my opponent for APA president-elect, Jamie McCloughan, I took the opportunity to post the following comment:

George Maschke has generously offered to facilitate a live debate between me and my opponent for APA president-elect, Jamie McCloughan -- as well as host debates for other APA office seekers.

Such a venue would overcome the limitations imposed by the 500-word candidate statements that appear on the APA web site and in its magazine.

APA politicos Walt Goodson, Skip Webb, and Barry Cushman have expressed a desire to make the candidates more accessible to the APA electorate during the election cycle, so that voters can make a more informed decision.

Well, boys, here's your chance to walk the talk.

Would you endorse such a venue? If not, please explain why.

Learn more here:
https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1465505671/15#15


Let's see what the "dedicated to truth" APA administration has to say.

My prediction is they will do anything and everything to avoid, besmirch or discredit such an opportunity.

Should that be the sad outcome, it will be most telling of their true values.
  
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Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #26 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 1:07am
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SPECIAL POLYGRAPH EPISODE, PART 2

Seems I have cut a nerve in Texas, Lets see is I can cut a wee deeper

Seems the truth can be hard to swallow in Texas, but now I know I have their attention.  I have had three, very angry phone calls about last nights show.  What was their review, well, lets just say, it was strong.


There was also some discussion on anti trade, and anti competitive issues and that as APA members, I thought this behavior was frowned on.

If they were pissed at what I said last night, well, lets just say I won't be driving a convertible or washing dishes next to the kitchen window anytime soon; especially with the treats I have had in the past from Texas Association of Polygraph members.

Also we I'll be talking about his Dan is actually right about a few things.  I know the texans will be listening.

A fifteen-year claim of 98% accuracy

> Home-grown "Model Policies" that have little in the way of scientific foundation

> Staunch resistance to a bill of rights -- similar in spirit to those in the medical and mental health fields -- for polygraph test-takers, to elevate informed consent and minimize potential harms

> An industry-insider culture that is insular, closed-minded and self-protective

All good points in some way. 


http://www.blogtalkradio.com/maxprovocateur/2016/06/15/special-polygraph-episode....
  

Joe
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Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #27 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 3:41am
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And now I wait to be served. 

But my questions to Dan and Jammie stand

1.  It's one thing to say you are against anticompetitive behaviors of your members, and lets not deny that it doesn't, because I have evidence otherwise.  What do you plan to do to curb apa members from engaging in anti competitive behavior?  This protects everyone in the industry

2, If we sell polygraph, should the APA, follow suit with AAPP and the Arizona polygraph industry, and require polygraphs for examiners, when necessary to clear ethics investigations?  If you believe polygraph examiners should not be subject to the very tests we sell; why?

  

Joe
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #28 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 12:41pm
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Joe, those are two good questions.

In my opinion, the best way to curb the kind of anti-competitive behavior you speak of is through polygraph-consumer education and awareness, as well as through the APA's rigorous endorsement of a comprehensive bill of rights for polygraph test-takers, which could contain specific items geared toward consumer protection vis-a-vis the open market.


As for using polygraph to "clear" ethics issues within the microcosm of the polygraph industry, forget it. Polygraph is without any proven scientific basis. It functions best as a pseudo-scientific contraption (bogus pipeline) that aids the investigation and interrogation process by facilitating admissions.

For almost 95 years (!), the courts have overwhelmingly declared polygraph inadmissible, condemning the "test" as being unreliable.  And for good reason -- it is. Thus, it would make little sense to use polygraph in ethics investigations.

It seems to me that far better remedies would be available through the courts, or perhaps agreeing to binding arbitration with a reputable -- and neutral, obviously --arbiter, wherein the rules of civil procedure are generally followed.

« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2016 at 1:20pm by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #29 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 6:39pm
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Too close to home.
Too close to home.

Bronze Leaf Dr
Spring Creek Pkwy
75
W. University Dr
West St

Something to think about, Joey

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Brunchberry+Ln,+Plano,+TX+75023/@33.0610308,-9...
  
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