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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan (Read 6673 times)
Dan Mangan
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American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Jun 9th, 2016 at 8:54pm
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Dear Mr. McCloughan,

As your opponent in the race for American Polygraph Association president-elect, I challenge you to debate me here -- on an open forum that is accessible to all -- so that we may better equip the APA electorate in making an informed decision about who should lead the association.

In a recent edition of the American Polygraph Association magazine, APA president Walt Goodson lamented that the limitations of the current election system -- by which candidates submit a statement not exceeding 500 words for publication in the APA magazine (and on its web site) -- is a grossly inadequate method of communicating campaign messages that may be complex, audience-specific, and multifaceted.

Given your history of vigorous and passionate posts here on www.antipolygraph.org --  see https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1011498360/0).%A0 -- you have demonstrated a willingness to venture into "enemy territory" and courageously take the ideological bull by the horns. 

For the sake of the American Polygraph Association's future, please do so again.

To get things rolling here, I will post my own 500-word statement as solicited by the APA per its election rules. Please do the same.

Following that expository exercise, we can expand on our respective platforms, debate a variety of polygraph-oriented issues, and field questions from forum members.

Why do I take these measures?  Because, in the spirit of the APA, I am "dedicated to truth."

Are you, Mr. McCloughan?

Let's find out.

Sincerely,
Daniel Mangan, M.A.

  

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
Full Member, American Polygraph Association
Certified PCSOT Examiner

Website: www.polygraphman.com
Email: polygraphexam@gmail.com
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #1 - Jun 9th, 2016 at 8:58pm
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Join Me In Making the APA Honest, Ethical and Accountable

Daniel Mangan, M.A.



Since completing my initial polygraph training under the great Cleve Backster and joining the American Polygraph Association in 2004, I have come to the conclusion that the polygraph industry has a problem with telling the truth about the “test.”

As current events continue to show, polygraph is notoriously unreliable, plagued with structural frailties, and easily defeated (or confounded) by following simple instructions freely available on the Internet.

That's reality.

If polygraph were a medical procedure I doubt many doctors would use it, for fear of being sued.

Effective polygraph has precious little to do with science; it relies solely on examiner expertise. All of the model policies, industry insider research and wishful thinking in the world will never change that.

A little history... In 1997, the APA proffered a flattering report – The Validity and Reliability of Polygraph Testing – that spawned a lasting perception of near-perfect accuracy. Here's an excerpt:

The American Polygraph Association has a compendium of research studies available on the validity and reliability of polygraph testing. The 80 research projects listed...involved 6,380 polygraph examinations or sets of charts from examinations. Researchers conducted 12 studies of the validity of field examinations, following 2,174 field examinations, providing an average accuracy of 98%.

Incredibly, the APA stuck to its 98% accuracy claim until 2011 – ten years after the devastating NAS report condemned polygraph as lacking solid scientific underpinnings – when the APA published a home-grown meta-analytic survey showing 89% accuracy.

Beyond its continued claims of “evidence based” high accuracy, the APA should address these other troubling issues: victimization of innocent parties via false results; a lack of research on examiner vulnerability to countermeasures; and, potentially harmful discrimination within the APA.

Consequently, I am running for APA president elect on this remedial platform:

1. A bill of rights – similar in spirit to those found in the medical and mental health fields -- for polygraph test subjects, designed to elevate informed consent and avoid potential harms

2. Open-book research, including an ongoing countermeasure challenge series integral to APA seminars, designed to reveal polygraph's real-world accuracy and expose the wide variations in examiner competence

3. Equality for all APA members regarding access to political and educational opportunities, thereby reducing the inequities of a de facto caste society

Realistically, polygraph is mainly about money. While there will always be opportunists in our field, the principled professional will lead by example. That means living up to the recently (and strangely) abandoned APA goal to “Serve the cause of truth with integrity, objectivity and fairness to all persons.” 

It is time to eradicate the APA's self-made legacy of unrealistic expectations, and be forthright about the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph “testing.” As president elect, I will work tirelessly to bring truth, honesty and accountability to the APA, and to the entire polygraph profession. Please join me.

To contact me, or view my qualifications, visit www.polygraphman.com. I invite your inquiries.
  

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
Full Member, American Polygraph Association
Certified PCSOT Examiner

Website: www.polygraphman.com
Email: polygraphexam@gmail.com
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Drew Richardson
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #2 - Jun 9th, 2016 at 9:47pm
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Congratulations on your strong and principled statement, Dan, as well as for your challenge to Mr. McCloughan. 

Now that you have thrown down the gauntlet, I fully expect Jamie (as I knew him through private conversations) to pick it up. Not only did he participate in vigorous debate with George and I, he challenged George (and I later chimed in) to the debate.

As a younger man, not only was Jamie willing to debate, he was more importantly, curious, and as a result discussed concealed information testing with me and upon my recommendation, spoke (I believe) with David Lykken about same in the latter years of David's life.  This may well be the most important qualification Jamie possesses in seeking the executive position he aspires to.

I hope the aforementioned boldness and curiosity has not wained in the intervening years and as he has become involved in the bureaucracy of the APA.  I look forward to a vigorous debate between the two of you with regard to the issues you raise as well as any Jamie cares to raise.

Good luck to you both...


  
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #3 - Jun 12th, 2016 at 1:45pm
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It has been five days since I emailed my opponent for APA president elect, Jamie McCloughlan, challenging him to debate me here.

Mr. McCloughlan has failed to respond thus far.

However, one of the APA politicos who was copied on my challenge to Mr. McClouglan had this to say to some fellow APA members:

A proposal that an APA election debate take place on a site dedicated to the end of the polygraph profession is all I need to know about this candidate's judgment.

In my opinion, such a comment only reinforces the APA's reputation for being insular, closed-minded and self-protective.
  

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
Full Member, American Polygraph Association
Certified PCSOT Examiner

Website: www.polygraphman.com
Email: polygraphexam@gmail.com
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George W. Maschke
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #4 - Jun 12th, 2016 at 1:58pm
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Dan,

It seems that in the hive mind of the polygraph community, to participate in this forum is thoughtcrime. Such crimethinkis doubleplusungood. You had best cultivate goodthink, lest you become an unperson. Perhaps it is already too late.
  

George W. Maschke
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #5 - Jun 12th, 2016 at 2:21pm
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Oh man, that is so true.

  

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
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Drew Richardson
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #6 - Jun 12th, 2016 at 3:34pm
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Dan,

Perhaps you should point out to your APA politico, that in a free and open debate, electrons flow into and out of this site pretty much as they do on the American Polygraph Association site.

If that is unclear to him/her or he/she continues to shudder or be repulsed at the notion of an open debate here, perhaps you should suggest that the same debate (concerning the issues you have raised (and any others Jamie cares to raise) with full access to the public and with audience questions allowed) be held on the APA site.
  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #7 - Jun 12th, 2016 at 3:45pm
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Drew,

The American Polygraph Association website does indeed have a message board, but it's not open to the public because reasons.
  

George W. Maschke
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #8 - Jun 12th, 2016 at 4:06pm
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The APA pulled the plug on its message board a while back.

There is no mechanism for internal discussion.

All that exists is The Word From On High.
  

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
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Email: polygraphexam@gmail.com
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #9 - Jun 12th, 2016 at 4:18pm
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Cowardice abounds.  Hopefully Jamie has not evolved from the young man that George and I knew 15 years ago to adopt the apparent close-mindedness of the group he seeks to lead.
  
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Raymond Nelson
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #10 - Jun 12th, 2016 at 11:04pm
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George,

No hive mind, and no thoughtcrime.

But nice use of Orwellianisms.

I cannot speak for Jamie or anyone else. I used to enjoy discussing with Dan in public. Privately we only talk about our common interests in loud things. But sadly most or all discussions ended more than a year ago when it became clear that the discussions were not productive and only served as a vehicle for ranting and agenda with little regard for advancement, learning or disseminating knowledge.

I do know that Jamie contacted David Lykken and showed me some email exchange regarding the CIT. To me it was very interesting as the CIT probabilities are scored with multinomial combinatorics that are rather easy to simulate but rather difficult to calculate the exact solution. At that time John Kircher and I also exchanged emails, and in doing so he shared his initial computation of the multinomial, and I shared with him my computations of the multinomial combinatoric solutions for the entire range of CIT outcomes. It was fun.

When Jaimie showed me Lykken's email it was immediately evident that he had briefly described the basic premise and principles of the multinomial solution. I don't know if David Lykken ever completely worked the solution for the distributions of all possible CIT outcomes. As far as I know the full solution might never have been completely worked out until recently, though the principles will be obvious to mathematicians and statisticians who stayed awake during combinatorics lectures. Most published solutions have relied on a simulated distribution for which we now know is quite good and very close to the exact solution.

There is a little used discussion forum for polygraph examiners. Activity has subsided with the introduction of LinkedIn and other services. Dan has access to that and it could serve as a public or secure discussion forum.

In the absence of a favorable response from Jamie, perhaps yourself and Drew Richardson could attempt to engage Dan in a factual discussion about the APA and scientific lie detection. There is much to discuss.

The real question is whether it is possible to focus on the facts with both open minds and scientific curiosity - vs seizing the opportunity for a hateweek of duckspeak.

As always,

.02

rn
  
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #11 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 12:20am
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Ray, please, spare us the apologist song-and-dance routine.

I suggest you get to McCloughan and advise him to respond to my challenge to engage me here on A-P.

The future of the APA could depend on it.

« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2016 at 6:18am by Dan Mangan »  

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
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Email: polygraphexam@gmail.com
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George W. Maschke
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #12 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 4:37am
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Raymond,

You are the chairman of the APA's board of directors, right? Could you explain why the APA discontinued its message board?
  

George W. Maschke
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Raymond Nelson
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #13 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 10:31am
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I am not able to provide an official explanation, and so I can only offer my thoughts.

Message boards have been extremely valuable to the profession. As a result of message boards we have had many many useful and important exchanges. We have developed professional relationships, goals, projects, and knowledge. Equally important, the level of friendship, understanding, and appreciation among polygraph professionals with different backgrounds is much different than it seemed to me when I entered the profession. Some of the most useful and important areas of progress are in part a result of relationships or dialog may have been facilitated my message boards. Whether heavily theoretic, highly technical, dedicatedly practical, just pragmatic all discussions are useful. Even the silly discussions are useful because they help people build understanding and friendships that can make other things possible.

Oddly, the most productive and engaging message boards have been independent of the professional association. I believe this is because they are perceived as professionally safer. Independent forums do not include the same overtones of obligation to policy or hierarchy. Productive discussion sometimes requires the ability to question our assumptions.

Discussion in a forum at the APA website has always been minimal, and mostly limited to professionally safe topics such as announcements and questions about policies.

In my view, interesting and useful discussion will sometimes require the consideration of alternatives, which can make some people feel uneasy if they are looking to the web resources of a professional association for stability. Also, fun stuff that builds deeper relationships will almost never occur in a message board associated with a professional association. Discussion forums at the webspace of a professional association will always have overtones of authority and policy compliance, which tend to limit the degree of creativity and diversity within the discussion.

Out of concern for the importance and usefulness of an independent space for productive discussion we put up a new forum for polygraph examiners a couple of years ago when it became necessary to take down the original forum for technical reasons.

But along with the freedom of an independent forum we also get some chaos in the discussions, and sometimes people are not so nice. We have had opportunities to observe Godwin's law in action (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law), resulting in unfortunate decisions by some articulate folks to refrain from participation, and resulting in limiting the access of others.

In the meantime discussions have also shifted to other more public spaces. Hostility has followed even there. It is my view that the level of agression has resulted in a reduction of useful discussion in those public forums as well.

In an independent discussion forum problems will be moderated by people naturally backing away from further engagement, or by the owners or moderators who regulate and maintain the space. There is no great discomfort with the sensation that the moderation can be an arbitrary or even authoritarian process.

When problems occur in a professional discussion form it becomes someone's responsibility to moderate the problem, and moderation of an "official" forum can bring on even more drama and reactions that start to have professional and political implications. Moderation of a professional forum will require more involved administrative efforts to avoid corruption of association power into the arbitrary or authoritarian hands of whomever does the moderation.

If there is no public discussion forum at the APA website then it is probably only that other options have emerged for productive discussion, and that announcements and policy communications are more appropriately and more effectively communicated in other ways.

.02

RN


  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2016 Race for President-Elect: A challenge to my opponent, APA Director Jamie McCloughan
Reply #14 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 10:44am
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Thank you, Raymond. I would have supposed that the APA forum would have been a more appropriate venue for the debate Daniel is proposing, but in view of its having been closed, I can better understand why he proposed debating Jamie on this forum.

I'm also glad that you don't feel that it is taboo to post to this forum, and hope other polygraphers who might wish to participate won't be deterred by fear of ostracism or retaliation.
  

George W. Maschke
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