Normal Topic Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures (Read 9066 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 5971
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Oct 20th, 2014 at 12:16pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Suppose you were polygraphing a subject for some important purpose, say, the national security of the United States, and the first chart of the first question series began like this:



1. Would you infer that the subject was using polygraph countermeasures?

2. What sort of countermeasures do you think the subject might have been using?

3. If the subject told you that all he did was to focus on changing his breathing during questions where he wanted to create a clear response, would you find that answer satisfactory?

4. Without any further admission regarding the countermeasures employed, would you re-test this examinee and pass him later the same day?
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 651
Joined: Jul 31st, 2014
Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #1 - Oct 20th, 2014 at 3:41pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
As a lowly polygraph operator with only ten years of experience, I'll offer my opinion...

First, when reviewing any polygraph exam, it is important to maintain a sense of perspective. The image that's pictured is less than one half of one complete polygraph chart. Given that a proper CQT polygraph series requires at least three full charts, we're only seeing about 16% of the big picture, if that. Also, any worthwhile review of any polygraph procedure requires a video component to help rule out (or rule in) other possible explanations for apparent artifacts.

In answer to your questions:

1. Absent any other explanation for the movements e.g., distractions such as the sound of a slamming door, or a flying insect strafing the test subject (rare, but it happens) -- I would infer that CMs were likely in play.

2. Physical

3. No, but again, we're only looking at part of the first chart. Many test subjects are nervous as hell, and it can take time for them to settle down. That said, the movements following the CQs on this chart segment are suspicious and damning.

4. In federal polygraph circles, the re-test decision might be up to a supervisor. I don't know. There's much more flexibility in my realm of private practice. For me, the re-test decision would depend on what the rest of the test series looked like. A snapshot such as the one shown here does not tell the tale. If the series had obvious signs of manipulation throughout, it is highly unlikely I would conduct a re-test.

With regard to this particular case or any polygraph, for that matter -- another angle to consider is the possibility of examiner bias.

As an aside, the comparison/control question shown at the bottom of the chart image, Did you ever say anything in anger you later regretted?, suggests the test was of the directed-lie variety.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ex Member
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 710
Joined: Dec 9th, 2012
Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #2 - Oct 20th, 2014 at 9:01pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Since the spikes from the movement sensor occur inside the ROW on each comparison question, I would agree with Dan. However, it's also puzzling that someone would attempt this kind of countermeasure knowing their feet were resting on a movement sensing transducer. Also, the subject was already in EDA and Cardio arousal right before the recorded movement (possibly an NDI chart if he had not tried the movement). In the Pneumo tracings, I can only discern a slight change in the inhalation/exhalation ratio, perhaps resulting from the movement.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 651
Joined: Jul 31st, 2014
Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #3 - Oct 20th, 2014 at 10:18pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I'm not a fan of the directed-lie CQT. Why? When a test subject is instructed to lie to the controls, they have no reason to fear them.

With regard to the mild but noticeable arousal in the cardio and EDA channels of the CQs, it's quite possible those rises in amplitude were tied to the subject's anticipation of "doing the deed" at hand -- that is, executing the countermeasure moves.

There's not much action in the pneumo tracings, but it's largely immaterial anyway. Pneumos are generally disregarded when scoring a DLCQT. However, some examiners score pneumos for RQs in such a test, while purposely ignoring those of the CQs.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ex Member
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 710
Joined: Dec 9th, 2012
Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #4 - Oct 20th, 2014 at 11:05pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Interesting point about the arousal being anticipatory of the "deed", I hadn't thought of that. One of the arguments against your reason for being suspicious of the DLCQT is that the reactions to the CQ's (and RQ's) are a result of mental work, not fear. Also, regarding not giving credence to the pneumo tracing with DL format, Honts' latest research appears to dispel this; he will have a supporting article in the next publication of the APA journal suggesting to score the pneumo as in the probable lie CQT.
« Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2014 at 1:33am by Ex Member »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 651
Joined: Jul 31st, 2014
Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #5 - Oct 21st, 2014 at 1:55am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Ark...  So, Honts, in his new article in the APA journal, is suggesting that we score pneumos in a DLCQT?

Interesting. Very interesting.

Can't wait to see those prolonged apneas in the CQs...

From what I've seen, in the hokey-pokey world of polygraph, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

That's just my humble opinion, of course.

Admittedly, I'd be somewhat more intrigued if Honts' piece was featured not in a house organ of the American Polygraph Association, but in an indu$try-independent academic peer-reviewed journal.

Time will tell.  Or not.

By the way...  I'm aware of the mental "work" allegedly tied to deceptive RQs, but where is the mental "work" in a directed lie CQ?

There ain't none.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ex Member
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 710
Joined: Dec 9th, 2012
Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #6 - Oct 21st, 2014 at 2:44am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The concept of mental work is new to me and I'm a little out of my comfort zone to elaborate on how it would come into play CQ's vs RQ's. If you can point to any literature on it, I'd like to bone up. I know Aldert Vrij is doing work in this area.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 651
Joined: Jul 31st, 2014
Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #7 - Oct 21st, 2014 at 4:48pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Ark, a recent article that's hailed as a breakthrough by some polygraph research bigs is "Credibility assessment: Preliminary Process Theory, the polygraph process, and construct validity", written by John J. Palmatier, PhD and Louis Rovner, PhD. I believe it was published in June of this year, appearing in the peer-review publication International Journal of Psychophysiology.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 5971
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #8 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:32am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Dan,

Congratulations on being the only polygrapher thus far willing to publicly address the questions I posed. As you've no doubt surmised, the chart screen shot pictured above is from the examination that is the subject of the blog post, Confirmed Polygraph Countermeasure Case Documentation.

I think that any student straight out of polygraph school would recognize that the examinee was attempting to augment reactions to the control questions, and doing so by physical means such as toe pressing.

I find it troubling that in the field, a federal polygraph examiner would accept an examinee's explanation that he wasn't doing anything like toe pressing, but merely focusing on changing his breathing, and go on to re-test and pass the examinee later the same day. I wonder what sort of clout the examinee had in order to become the beneficiary of such kid glove treatment.

It's also interesting that a federal polygraph examiner would characterize such a case as one where the examinee learned countermeasures from AntiPolygraph.org when it's plainly evident that the countermeasure employed is something that AntiPolygraph.org specifically advises against.

I note that in a 2008 article on polygraph countermeasures published in Polygraph, Jack Ogilvie and Donnie Dutton falsely stated that toe curling is "consistent with the advice given in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector." I wonder how widespread their mistaken belief is in the polygraph community.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 5971
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #9 - Nov 7th, 2014 at 1:48pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Coincidentally, the polygraph examination in the above example was conducted by the 902nd Military Intelligence Group's polygraph unit. This is the same unit who's chief in November 2000 declined to polygraph me because it was "too hot of a potato."
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box John West
Guest


Re: Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures
Reply #10 - Oct 19th, 2019 at 3:46am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Can you please help me read this chart? Thank you so much
  

20191018_145703.jpg ( 178 KB | 40 Downloads )
20191018_145703.jpg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Questions for Polygraph Examiners on Countermeasures

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X