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I need advice (Read 3260 times)
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I need advice
Oct 16th, 2013 at 6:30pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
I been lurking on these forums for a while now and I feel comfortable to post something.

Like most of you, I been a victim of the polygraph. According to my first polygraph test, it showed signs of deception when asked if I have committed a crime. I was quite shocked and nervous.


To make a long story short. I got a mail saying they are canceling the "Conditional Offer" and disapproval to be allowed access to classified information. And their reason for this decision was written all out of context from what I told them.


So I have 3 options:

1) "Request a copy of your investigative file"

2) "Request a review of the decision" which I write stating further details I can provide to overturned their decision.

3) Wait 1 year and re-apply or "you may file an appeal" after the 1 year passed.


I don't know what to do, any successful stories of making their decision overturned or is this some kind of false hope?

Should I go straight to option 2 and skip option 3? Because I know what I told them but I don't know what they have in file, and base on what they wrote to me is all out of context and I want to correct that. Or I just let this go and forget about ever applying anywhere else that requires security clearance because I'm screwed either ways?  Undecided
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Re: I need advice
Reply #1 - Oct 16th, 2013 at 8:52pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Sorry to hear your story.  Which agency did you apply to?  Was it CIA?

I am a CIA reject.  I got the Conditional Offer of Employment (COE) and then "failed" my polygraph during my 3-day processing at the CIA Dulles Discovery Building (13900 Air & Space Museum Parkway, Chantilly, VA).  I got a certified letter a couple of months later saying I had been "denied access to classified information" and my COE rescinded.   I had a security clearance, have never been arrested, no criminal record, no drug issues, no foreign contacts, no security violations.  Yet, I'm some sort of security risk?

I went ahead a filed a Freedom of Information Act / Privacy Act (FOIA/PA) request, which came through with a copy of my background file.   There wasn't much there since the CIA didn't run my background check yet for my clearance.  All I really got was a copy of my SF-86 security clearance form and a completely censored copy of my polygraph report (the report was essentially blank pages with my name and occupation on the header, the polygraph info was redacted).  I requested a "review of the decision", hence an appeal, and it took 2 years before I heard anything.  My appeal was denied.  I was granted one final appeal which was also denied.  No surprise.  I have never heard of any applicant for the CIA successfully appealing their negative polygraph result.  It screwed my cleared career for a while but I eventually got hired by another agency and got my TS/SCI clearance, no polygraph needed in this case. 

The polygraph is garbage and they accuse EVERYBODY of something, usually crime or drugs or foreign contacts, to see if you'll confess to something they never would have found out about in the first place.  They have to reject a certain number of applicants to prove that the polygraph "works", which is doesn't.  You just drew a bad straw.  As did I.  Sucks for both of us.  I compare polygraphers to psychics, mere hogwash.

I would suggest you file a FOIA and appeal the decision, as I did, but don't expect anything.  Forget about it, and move on.  The appeal doesn't cost anything and at least you'll have on record that you did appeal and completely disagree with their decision.  That is the only advantage of appealing.  You can still have another good cleared career without these polygraph-agencies.  As for re-applying, I don't know.  I haven't found any stories online about people getting hired by the same agency that rejected them previously due to a failed poly, but I'm sure it does happen.
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Re: I need advice
Reply #2 - Oct 16th, 2013 at 9:41pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Thank you very much for that input. Yes, I am a CIA reject too. To this day, I can't sleep well from all that's transpired.

I'll go ahead and take your advice. I will share my response, in due time.

Anyone else who's reading, I would like to hear your advice too.
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Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: I need advice
Reply #3 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 12:49am
Mark & Quote Quote 
While I haven't personally applied for CIA employment, I concur with what "a cia reject" wrote. I'm not aware of a single case where an applicant for federal employment was later hired by an agency whose polygraph he or she "failed." That doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't any such cases, but if there are, it would seem that they are exceedingly rare.
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George W. Maschke
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Re: I need advice
Reply #4 - Oct 17th, 2013 at 10:03am
Mark & Quote Quote 
KC1,
What is it that you told them during your polygraphs? What information led you to get rejected?

By the way, one thing I learned from my process is that I was denied SCI access by the CIA, not TS clearance.  But as far as the government is concerned, it is the same thing.  I was denied access to classified info. And if you have a clearance already, an Incident Report will soon be placed in your file, which is a negative red flag.

George is right.  I've never heard of anyone getting hired by the same agency where they failed the polygraph.  Another agency, yes, but that same agency, no.
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Re: I need advice
Reply #5 - Oct 24th, 2013 at 5:33am
Mark & Quote Quote 
Thank you George, I hope for the best.

@"a cia reject"

During the polygraph, I was accused of committing a "major" crime. I said, I tried hacking into the hackers group Anonymous the day before they took down the FBI website. They wanted to know my process, how it went about doing it. After telling them how and i also mention I did this with good intentions, for the greater good, that if i can locate and identified 1 of them, It could really give me a boost in my academic career.

My letter stated, I'm a member of Anonymous.
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Re: I need advice
Reply #6 - Oct 24th, 2013 at 10:35am
Mark & Quote Quote 
KC1,

This sounds like an egregious instance of "admission inflation," where a polygraph operator spins a minor admission into something disqualifying. Polygraphers have an incentive to do this because they are typically evaluated based on their post-test confession rates. Falsely branding you as a member of Anonymous allowed your polygrapher to inflate his or her stats. The claim that the CIA polygraph division prevented a member of Anonymous from infiltrating the Agency may also be used to justify future funding requests.
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George W. Maschke
E-mail: maschke@antipolygraph.org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
Bitmessage: BM-GtK3fjwGHLLcdRRsYU9eHRdPGxGabbuL
Twitter: georgemaschke
Tel/SMS: 1-424-835-1225
SIP: georgemaschke@ostel.co
Encrypted voice and text chat (XMPP via Jitsi): georgemaschke@jit.si
Postal mail: Van Trigtstraat 53, 2597 VX The Hague, The Netherlands
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. -- Saul Bellow
WWW George W. Maschke  
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Re: I need advice
Reply #7 - Oct 24th, 2013 at 10:49am
Mark & Quote Quote 
KC1 wrote on Oct 24th, 2013 at 5:33am:
During the polygraph, I was accused of committing a "major" crime. I said, I tried hacking into the hackers group Anonymous the day before they took down the FBI website. They wanted to know my process, how it went about doing it. After telling them how and i also mention I did this with good intentions, for the greater good, that if i can locate and identified 1 of them, It could really give me a boost in my academic career.

My letter stated, I'm a member of Anonymous. 

Once a polygrapher accuses you of lying, he goes into a frozen-mind mode where he can hear only words that confirm the accusation.  All other information is filtered out.

Your mistake seems to be that you responded to his accusation with actual information.  Unfortunately your response included the words "hackers group Anonymous", "I tried hacking" and "took down the FBI website", with maybe "boost in my academic career" as a condiment.  Nothing else made it through his filter.

Never tell a polygrapher anything.  Polygraph sessions are unmonitored and unrecorded (they won't even let you have the chart), so when the Polygrapher lies about what you said, you have no evidence to counter him.

Giving him a hook to hang his lies on encourages him to think that you can be bullied.  It boosts his confidence and erodes yours, so that you don't even want to write the letter disputing his findings.
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Re: I need advice
Reply #8 - Oct 24th, 2013 at 11:23am
Mark & Quote Quote 
Aunty Agony,

One correction: Unless there has been a recent policy change, the CIA actually does record polygraph examinations. Retired CIA polygrapher John Sullivan documents this in his book, Gatekeeper. The FBI, by contrast, has a deliberate policy of not recording polygraph interrogations (a policy for which there is no good faith justification).
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George W. Maschke
E-mail: maschke@antipolygraph.org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
Bitmessage: BM-GtK3fjwGHLLcdRRsYU9eHRdPGxGabbuL
Twitter: georgemaschke
Tel/SMS: 1-424-835-1225
SIP: georgemaschke@ostel.co
Encrypted voice and text chat (XMPP via Jitsi): georgemaschke@jit.si
Postal mail: Van Trigtstraat 53, 2597 VX The Hague, The Netherlands
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. -- Saul Bellow
WWW George W. Maschke  
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Re: I need advice
Reply #9 - Oct 24th, 2013 at 5:10pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Thank you George.  I stand corrected.  Now I wonder if the policy of not recording poly sessions is as widespread as I thought.
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Re: I need advice
Reply #10 - Oct 26th, 2013 at 6:25pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
KC1, sounds like you got screwed bad!   Sorry to hear about this.  The CIA recruiters are nice, but the security folks are evil rat bastards.   Their employees have to get polygraphed every 5 years, so I wonder what happens when a current employee "fails" their polygraph during their clearance review?  I wonder what happens when polygraphers polygraph other polygraphers?  Do they use the same ruse, knowing that they both know the "lie behind the lie detector"? 

George is right.  "Admission Inflation" is common not only with polygraphers, but also your security clearance background investigators (BIs).  I had something similar happen when I told an investigator something  minor, which was not illegal at all, but the investigator either misinterpreted what I said or just decided to spin it into making it sound like I had no regard for the law (it was all in my FOIA file).  This wasn't the reason for my employment rejection at that time, but I'm sure it did not help me.   One thing I learned is that polygraphers and BIs are not your friends.  They try to instill a false sense of friendship in you, warm you up, so you are open to talk about things.  They will smile when they meet you, shake your hand, maybe even crack a few jokes.  I bet your CIA polygrapher asked you things like, "how was your weekend?", "did you have a nice flight?".  If you are a guy, they may even talk to you about sports and all the pretty women working at the agency and in DC.  They best thing to do when having your polygraph or BI interview is to give short sweet yes/no answers.  Do not give any extra info.  Do not elaborate on anything unless asked.  You need to be that boring candidate who doesn't talk much.   The more you talk, the more your words can get twisted around and harm you.  It is similar to police interrogations.  "Anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you". 

Like I said previously, go ahead and FOIA your file and appeal, and then move on.  On the down side, expect that the info you have to the CIA to be shared with other agencies, so if you need a clearance for a job in the future, this incident will come back to bite you in the ass.

Admissions are what polygraphers strive for, it is like their gold star and they do a little celebration dance jig when they get them.  The polygrapher with the most admissions on their file gets bragging rights in the office.  Did the CIA make you sign any admission forms at the end of your polygraphs?



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Re: I need advice
Reply #11 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:37pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Thanks guys, I really got the bad hand here. it's such a shame the way how things are done.

Should I write and ask at the same time to send my investigation file and to review my case?

Or only do one? and which one.
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Re: I need advice
Reply #12 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 6:08pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
KC1,

Filing a FOIA/PA request is an entirely different process than appealing your security denial.  Do both.  All you have to do more or less is write a letter to each office.  Your FOIA/PA file will come through in a few months.  Your security (SCI) denial appeal will take a couple of years at least, as mines did.  File both.  Neither costs anything but a postage stamp.

Did the CIA make you sign any confessions or other forms after your poly?
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Re: I need advice
Reply #13 - Dec 5th, 2013 at 11:16pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Quote:
KC1,

Filing a FOIA/PA request is an entirely different process than appealing your security denial.  Do both.  All you have to do more or less is write a letter to each office.  Your FOIA/PA file will come through in a few months.  Your security (SCI) denial appeal will take a couple of years at least, as mines did.  File both.  Neither costs anything but a postage stamp.

Did the CIA make you sign any confessions or other forms after your poly?

How does one appeal their CIA security clearance denial?  Is that done through the same office that handles the FOIA/PA requests? Sad
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If any scum from the CIA Office of Security/Office of Personnel  or any pernicious Agency polygraphers are monitoring this site, I say to you incompetent jerks and worthless parasites:  MAY YOU FLUNK YOUR NEXT POLYGRAPH REVIEW AND GET OU(S)TED! 

"The only good spook is a DEAD spook!"  The best "tradecraft" is NO "tradecraft".  Our country cries out for its own citizenry to re-enact the events  of 25 January 1993.

Let's see more of those anonymous "memorial" stars gracing the hallowed halls of Langley! 

The only good polygraph machine is a SMASHED polygraph machine!

Let's see more Agency COS's follow the path of Buckley in Beirut!

Let's hope that all the "brave" Milan kidnappers get themselves extraordinarily renditioned back to Italy, to serve the sentences that they received in absentia from the Italian courts!  Let's see the name of the Agency credit card spendthrift NCS streetwalker/kidnapper "Monica Courtney Adler" appear with a star on the sacred wall of death at Langley!
 
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Re: I need advice
Reply #14 - Dec 5th, 2013 at 11:19pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
KC1 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 11:37pm:
Thanks guys, I really got the bad hand here. it's such a shame the way how things are done.

Should I write and ask at the same time to send my investigation file and to review my case?

Or only do one? and which one. 



Do BOTH.  You won't stand the remotest chance of reversing an Agency's adverse hiring decision, but making a PA request and then reviewing the (redacted)  BI reports you will receive may well shed valuable light on how and why your Agency application got fouled up.
At least, it helped me understand who caused my employment application to be  f*cked up. Angry
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If any scum from the CIA Office of Security/Office of Personnel  or any pernicious Agency polygraphers are monitoring this site, I say to you incompetent jerks and worthless parasites:  MAY YOU FLUNK YOUR NEXT POLYGRAPH REVIEW AND GET OU(S)TED! 

"The only good spook is a DEAD spook!"  The best "tradecraft" is NO "tradecraft".  Our country cries out for its own citizenry to re-enact the events  of 25 January 1993.

Let's see more of those anonymous "memorial" stars gracing the hallowed halls of Langley! 

The only good polygraph machine is a SMASHED polygraph machine!

Let's see more Agency COS's follow the path of Buckley in Beirut!

Let's hope that all the "brave" Milan kidnappers get themselves extraordinarily renditioned back to Italy, to serve the sentences that they received in absentia from the Italian courts!  Let's see the name of the Agency credit card spendthrift NCS streetwalker/kidnapper "Monica Courtney Adler" appear with a star on the sacred wall of death at Langley!
 
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