Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4  ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) polygraph (Read 28477 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
Ex Member


Re: polygraph
Reply #30 - Sep 28th, 2011 at 3:21pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Pailryder, I would suggest that the therapists all get into a room, open up a big box of granola and find another way.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Twoblock
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 732
Location: AR.
Joined: Oct 15th, 2002
Gender: Male
Re: polygraph
Reply #31 - Sep 28th, 2011 at 4:12pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown

I am certainly not frustrated by the stupid post of people like polyboy1. As you have noticed, I'm sure, there has been no confirmation or retraction. There never is. Statements like polyboy1's and much worse have been made about George primarily, including treason. When they are challenged, there is NEVER any confirmation or retraction. Stupid is as stupid does. If I was in George's shoes, the lawsuits would flow.

Nope, I'm not frustraded. Maybe joyed that this website is enough of a problem to polygraphers that it makes some of them show their ass.

Question to you. Have you learned that the one machine - one operator decision has ruined the LE employment life of many truthful applicants?

Still not frustrated. Just angry.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box polyboy1
Guest


Re: polygraph
Reply #32 - Sep 28th, 2011 at 7:07pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Two Block:  what exactly is "stupid" about my post?  I made a statement that I have seen George M's charts, and we use them to train new examinersin the detection of countermeasures.  I don't have to provide "confirmation" to you or anyone else.  What do you want, a sworn affidavit? Notarized statement?  It's a free country;  you may believe it or not. I lose no sleep over your disbelief.  Reading your past postings, it's clear that you are narrow-minded, and the type ready to sue at the drop of a hat.  What a sad little man you are.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
Ex Member


Re: polygraph
Reply #33 - Sep 28th, 2011 at 7:53pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
What do you want, a sworn affidavit? Notarized statement?

That would do nicely. Please provide it.

There are many who post lies here and then do as you just did: "if you don't believe me, screw you." This is very infantile and totally incongruent with someone who is supposedly an instructor responsible for producing experts. Nobody here can spend time to validate your preposterous claims, it is up to you to give them provenance if you hope to build any credibility.

The truth adds up and fits, lies are awkward and disjointed. Quite frankly, your claims don't add up. First of all, you should only use "training aids" where you can be certain countermeasures were attempted. As George already told you, he did not use countermeasures. Moreover, properly executed countermeasures are impossible to detect, so such a technique cannot be taught, especially by someone with such a neanderthal-like demeanor.
« Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2011 at 1:49am by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Twoblock
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 732
Location: AR.
Joined: Oct 15th, 2002
Gender: Male
Re: polygraph
Reply #34 - Sep 29th, 2011 at 1:28am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Polyboy1

No you don't have to provide proof of anything you say but it sure would provide believability to your statements.

So actually you are calling the FBI liars. Right? They couldn't provide George's charts, asked for in his FOIA request, because "they couldn't find them". Yet they turn up as a training tool vainly trying to discover a way to detect CM's. How ironic!

You betcha I'm suit happy when it comes to protecting my integrity and If I was in George's shoes, some polygraphers would have already felt my sting. At least if I was accused of treason as he was.

I don't want you to lose any sleep. I want you to stay awake and still be greatly bothered by this website.

For your information, I'm not a sad little man. I'm a very happy, 81 yr old, 6', 200 lb. man with very little fat. I can still hold my own with the youngsters at the mine when I want to. I still pump iron and work out on the hanging and speed bags in the gym and haven't lost much timing since my younger boxing days. In other words, I can still kick ass when it's necessary.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Fair Chance
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Joined: Oct 10th, 2002
Re: polygraph
Reply #35 - Sep 29th, 2011 at 2:37am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Dear Readers,

I find it amazing at this point that the proponents of polygraph truly believe in their craft. This country will never understand the true costs of applicants who lost federal careers due to the collateral damage of "false positives." As long as polygraph examiners have their careers that make them money they are very happy to live with collateral damage. That is the price of doing business with the federal government if you want to apply for a job. Mark my words, the time of plentiful federal employee applicants willing to roll-the-dice just to get a job will be ending by about August of 2014. Yes, it will take that much time for the economy to recover and provide a reasonable amount of jobs that employers will have to compete for qualified employees who can pass most background checks.

Combine a two year wage freeze which might be extended by three more years with increased pension contributions, increased health payment deductions, shifting of high-three to high five annuity calculations and the perfect storm is going to be created in filling federal jobs.

Imagine a new FBI agent who is told that the law-enforcement pension has been done away with, the extra 25% law enforcement availability pay has been done away with, and they have to put up with passing a polygraph with yearly financial detailed disclosures for a GS-11 pay grade.  Good luck getting a new applicant for a "Special Agent" position.  You would have to be very "Special" or desperate to apply for a job like that.

If anyone thinks I am exaggerating,  they have not been keeping up with OPM, GSA, recent Congressional acts and proposals.  Passing a polygraph will be the least of any applicant coordinator's problem when they have no qualified applicants in about three years.

Regards.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: polygraph
Reply #36 - Sep 29th, 2011 at 3:58pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Twoblock

Have you learned that the one machine - one operator decision has ruined the LE employment life of many truthful applicants?


I am certainly aware of false positives and false negatives.  I do advocate using BI's to clear up any responses on polygraph.  The standard in the industry, as stated by the APA, states polygraph should be used as an investigative tool.  I am about to retire and enjoy reading about polygraph, assisting in more studies and advocating for stringent regulations on the use of polygraph and polygraph examiners. 

I believe polygraph is a useful tool when used properly.  You don't use a hammer to place a thumb tack on a cushion board, and you don't use polygraph to eliminate candidates.  It should be  used to develop further leads an investigator can followup on.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Twoblock
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 732
Location: AR.
Joined: Oct 15th, 2002
Gender: Male
Re: polygraph
Reply #37 - Sep 29th, 2011 at 6:56pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown

I, and I think the majority of posters, respects your opinion of the polygraph and would go along with an additional BI. However, our national security agencies and most other LE agencies don't hold with your advocacy. Apparently they use it in place of BI's. I believe this is wrong and it's what I rail against. If all polygraphers held your beliefs, there would be less use for this website. There have been entirely too many horrow stories posted here and they all can't be false stories.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: polygraph
Reply #38 - Sep 29th, 2011 at 11:47pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Two Block:  what exactly is "stupid" about my post?  I made a statement that I have seen George M's charts, and we use them to train new examinersin the detection of countermeasures.  I don't have to provide "confirmation" to you or anyone else.  What do you want, a sworn affidavit? Notarized statement?  It's a free country;  you may believe it or not. I lose no sleep over your disbelief.  Reading your past postings, it's clear that you are narrow-minded, and the type ready to sue at the drop of a hat.  What a sad little man you are.

Wouldn't you want to use charts from someone who was proven to have countermeasures for that?

George has always stated he did not use countermeasures and had never even heard of countermeasures.

I'm sure you can see the hole in the logic of simply declaring a set of charts to be an example of countermeasure usage and using them to train examiners how to spot countermeasures.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous ętes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box polyboy1
Guest


Re: polygraph
Reply #39 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 7:24pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sergeant 1107:  you make a good case, but sorry, no sale.  We do use charts from those who have admitted using CMs, but we also use those from cases where there is absolutely no doubt that they were employed.  Funny you should mention that we should use confirmed cases, since this site professes that CMs can't be detected.  Of course George M has always denied using CMs during his two polygraph exams, and he's not going to confess now, after more than  10 years;  it certainly would not help his credibility after all these years.  The majority of those who do, won't admit it, but that doesn't mean they didn't.  It just means it's not a confirmed case.  I suspect you are LE, so let me ask you, when you interrogate a suspect, and he denies involvement in the crime, do you simply take his word?  I wouldn't think so.  Same logic here.  However, we do take appropriate counter-countermeasures to confirm our suspicions, and when they are confirmed, it's a good bet CMs were employed (whether the subject confesses or not).  Again, having myself seen George M's charts, there's no doubt in my mind about his use of CMs.  Nor in the minds of everyone I have talked to who have also seen them.  CMs have been used long before Geoege M came along; I have no doubt some were successful, others were not.  However, polygraph technology has come a long way in the last decade, and we now have more tools to fight CMs than we did in years past.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box getrealalready
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 57
Joined: Oct 6th, 2007
Re: polygraph
Reply #40 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 9:25pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Guest,

You don't begin to make a good case, so not sorry, but, yes, not buying.  Either you are brain dead stupid in the sense that Sergeant 1107 implies (wildly guessing about unconfirmed charts along with your peers) or you are lying. 

George has made the polygraph community look completely stupid (actually allowed it to do so itself) for more than a decade.  If this community had any credible evidence/serious analysis that indicated that GM had used countermeasures and had lied for a decade about same, such would have been exposed long ago and both he and this site would have been history long ago. 

Get real or call my bluff and show me (with charts and real analysis) to be wrong and/or or as stupid and/or as dishonest as I claim you to be.  I'm waiting....lol
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box figs
User
**
Offline



Posts: 32
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011
Re: polygraph
Reply #41 - Oct 1st, 2011 at 3:01am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
A larger point re polyboy1 (Guest)'s misinformation -

The countermeasure info in "The lie behind the lie detector" remains good.

See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19543828. Respiration CMs change SCR (skin conductance), which is the measure most polygraphers rely primarily/exclusively on. They are not detectable.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: polygraph
Reply #42 - Oct 3rd, 2011 at 8:29pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Funny you should mention that we should use confirmed cases, since this site professes that CMs can't be detected.


I don’t know why you would think that was funny.  The easiest method of obtaining “confirmed” countermeasure charts would be to use the charts of those people who have admitted to using countermeasures.

Quote:
I suspect you are LE, so let me ask you, when you interrogate a suspect, and he denies involvement in the crime, do you simply take his word?  I wouldn't think so.  Same logic here. 


It is hardly the same logic.

It would be the same logic if I had no physical evidence or witnesses, but when I interviewed the suspect I believed they were lying (despite their assertion that they were being truthful) so I arrested them.  And then I used a recording of our interview to teach classes on how to identify people who are lying in the interview room.

That would make about as much sense as what you say you do with George’s charts.

I suspect that the “evidence” of countermeasure usage in George’s charts is oddly similar to the evidence in Aldrich Ames’ charts that he was lying.  Once the FBI knew he was a Soviet agent, they were able to review the charts and say, “Oh, sure, here it is.  Clearly he was lying.”

After George became a large thorn in the side of the polygraph industry, I’m sure various polygraph operators took a look at his charts and said, “Oh, sure, here it is.  He was using countermeasures.”
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous ętes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
Ex Member


Re: polygraph
Reply #43 - Oct 3rd, 2011 at 10:43pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
pailryder wrote on Sep 24th, 2011 at 11:25am:
I believe "we" is us!I think almost everyone on our side has seen those charts. 

Pailryder, you are kind of silent for being Polyboy1's partner in all of this. Please elaborate for us about your experiences with George's charts and how you surmised that he was using countermeasures.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 441
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: polygraph
Reply #44 - Oct 3rd, 2011 at 10:56pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Well, Stefano, we got in a big room and opened a box of granola and found another way.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
polygraph

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X