Normal Topic I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program (Read 10838 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mr. Truth
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 192
Joined: Aug 4th, 2003
I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:43pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
"Earlier, defense lawyer Stephen Marsh told The Associated Press that the Georgia Department of Corrections denied his request to allow Davis to take a polygraph test. Marsh had said he hoped the polygraph would persuade the state pardons board to reconsider a decision against clemency."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44592285/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/#.TnovYpZA6Ac

What if you were innocent and the results came back negative? But if you "pass" it seems there are those who won't believe you anyway.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
Ex Member


Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #1 - Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:55pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Mr. Truth wrote on Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:43pm:
What if you were innocent and the results came back negative? But if you "pass" it seems there are those who won't believe you anyway. 

Where is the outrage from the Polygraph community? Should not the APA be stepping forward? The silence from polygraph examiners is deafening.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mr. Truth
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 192
Joined: Aug 4th, 2003
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #2 - Sep 21st, 2011 at 7:12pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Really, what if? What if he did get a polygraph and he was scored as having told the truth. "But, but, he told the truth and you killed him anyway?" It is kind of deafening.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6122
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #3 - Sep 21st, 2011 at 7:14pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
It doesn't reflect well on the state of Georgia that while the Georgia Bureau of Investigation maintains that polygraphy is a "valid and reliable means to verify the truth," the Georgia Department of Corrections has denied a (quite possibly innocent) man who is about to be executed permission to take a polygraph in an attempt to seek clemency.
« Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2011 at 3:47am by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #4 - Sep 22nd, 2011 at 12:11am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George it is your advice to not take a polygraph examination.  Now you advocate, or persons posting on this board advocate that as a last ditch effort to save this man, polygraph be used.  If it is pseudo science, as advertised here, why would the courts or you be favorable and ask that it be used?

The Defendant should have done polygraph testing long ago in this case.  Studying the case gives me the impression that he may be innocent.  I sincerely doubt the courts in Georgia will accept polygraph evidence. 

This is from a search of laws regarding admissibility in Georgia:

States like California, Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, and Florida allow the tests if everyone agrees to them, but may put different emphasis on the tests accuracy. 

Georgia, on the other hand, allows defendants who suffer damage because of a false result on a polygraph test (which are somewhat frequent) to sue the polygraph operator for damages
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mr. Truth
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 192
Joined: Aug 4th, 2003
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #5 - Sep 22nd, 2011 at 12:29am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I am one of those persons you refer to. If the polygraph were as valid as some claim, the results still wouldn't matter. The prosecutors and various higher courts have all ruled the same. They have all the evidence and procedure they need.

I guess its use is okay to help reject people for jobs, but not okay to validate executions. If Davis took the test and failed (and being innocent), his recourse for suing for damages would be quite limited.

I'm just saying it's too bad the APA or some famous polygrapher has not ridden in on Silver and asked to have a shot at this case because maybe, just maybe, with its oh-so-keen ability to detect lies (and conversely, determine truthfulness), the polygraph could save a life.

It won't happen because we all know the ground truth: the polygraph is a fraud and its use anywhere in our legal system is a travesty. You only like the results when it suits your purpose.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box figs
User
**
Offline



Posts: 32
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #6 - Sep 22nd, 2011 at 1:28am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown wrote on Sep 22nd, 2011 at 12:11am:
This is from a search of laws regarding admissibility in Georgia:

...

Georgia, on the other hand, allows defendants who suffer damage because of a false result on a polygraph test (which are somewhat frequent) to sue the polygraph operator for damages


Incorrect. http://digitalarchive.gsu.edu/gsulr/vol18/iss1/36/.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 439
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #7 - Sep 22nd, 2011 at 10:28am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
So this site advocates the abolition of polygraph, unless it can be used to save convicted cop killers?  I don't know if this man's conviction was just or not , but polygraph played no part in it.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mr. Truth
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 192
Joined: Aug 4th, 2003
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #8 - Sep 22nd, 2011 at 3:28pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
It's a moot point now, but let's suppose a test was conducted, Davis was scored as no deception indicated, and using some literature/resources, a 90% "accuracy" rate is referenced (which is lower that one advertised here: http://www.theftstopper.com/polygraph_employee_theft.htm).

Outcome 1: deception indicated
Well, that just confirms what we already knew/believed: he is guilty, off with his head

Outcome 2: no deception indicated
Given that the prosecution didn't use it in the first place, and already have the utmost confidence in the strength of the case presented, backed up by findings from appeals and reviews, the 10% chance the results are wrong is good enough to proceed with the execution. Who would want to defend that reasoning?

Either way, it is good that polygraphers stayed inside their little industrial park or strip mall offices, filled with the cheap furniture and walls covered with plaques from no-name schools or institutes, and did not offer their truth-divining service in the cause of "truth, justice, and the American way" because the truth of the matter is this: it is unreliable, has practically no validity, is a convenient tool for bullying job candidates, and is not used when it really matters.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #9 - Sep 22nd, 2011 at 7:05pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Figs,

This is the link I copied from.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/admissability-of-polygraph-tests-i...

Your link is from 2001 and may be outdated.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box quickfix
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 359
Joined: Jan 15th, 2006
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #10 - Sep 22nd, 2011 at 7:31pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
oh, so polygraph works! No, wait it doesn't work!  No, wait, it only works if it vindicates you, it doesn't work if it confirms your guilt!  No, wait, it only works in crim specific, it doesn't work for preemployment!  No, wait,....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6122
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #11 - Sep 23rd, 2011 at 4:02am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill, pailryder, quickfix,

I'm not arguing that polygraphy has any validity, or that it should have been relied on in the Troy Davis case. Rather, I was pointing out the incongruity between the public position of one arm of the Georgia state government (that polygraphy is a "valid and reliable means to verify the truth") and another arm of the same government denying a condemned man the opportunity to avail himself of that purportedly "valid and reliable means to verify the truth."

For my views on Davis's polygraph request, see Troy Davis and the Polygraph on the blog.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 439
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program
Reply #12 - Sep 23rd, 2011 at 12:08pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George

In fairness to the state of Georgia, Davis had twenty-two years to seek a polygraph, if he really wanted one.

I see no incongruity in the state recognizing polygraph as a useful, valid investigative tool, but refusing to substitute a polygraph result for a jury's lawful verdict in a criminal case.
« Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2011 at 6:10pm by pailryder »  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
I guess death row is a form of post-conviction program

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X