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CM vs relevant question breathing pattern (Read 13512 times)

tedt3526 New User Offline Posts: 3 Joined: Oct 17^th, 2009	CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Oct 18^th, 2009 at 12:01am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	The CM technique explained in TLBTLD does make sense. I have a question though. If you use breathing CM for a control question, let's say hold your breath 4 - 5 seconds. At the same time, you also have noticeable reaction to relevant question, but a different pattern, say decreased amplitude. Even though CM makes the control question reaction bigger than the relevant question reaction, but the fact is that these two reactions have different patterns. would that be a give away to the examiner? anyone has an opinion on that?
	« Last Edit: Oct 18^th, 2009 at 12:44am by tedt3526 »

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George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6211 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Reply #1 - Oct 19^th, 2009 at 5:56am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	tedt3526, The breathing countermeasures outlined in Chapter 4 of TLBTLD should result in the absence of significant reactions to the relevant questions.

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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tedt3526 New User Offline Posts: 3 Joined: Oct 17^th, 2009	Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Reply #2 - Oct 20^th, 2009 at 3:51am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	George, are you referring to the technique of practicing even and relatively shallow breath at 15-30 per minute? I understand that if the subject can breathe evenly during relevant question so the examiner sees no reaction, that would be ideal. however what if the subject is sensitive to the relevant question and involuntarily breathe in a different pattern? in that case, the poly examiner sees that relevant question produces a smaller, but different breathing reaction than the control question, and might get suspicious? without conscious use of CM, is it normal for a truthful subject to have different breathing reactions to different (control) questions, or all reactions are supposed to show same pattern?


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George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6211 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Reply #3 - Oct 20^th, 2009 at 4:09am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	tedt3526 wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 3:51am: George, are you referring to the technique of practicing even and relatively shallow breath at 15-30 per minute? Yes. Quote: I understand that if the subject can breathe evenly during relevant question so the examiner sees no reaction, that would be ideal. however what if the subject is sensitive to the relevant question and involuntarily breathe in a different pattern? in that case, the poly examiner sees that relevant question produces a smaller, but different breathing reaction than the control question, and might get suspicious? I suppose that's possible. To the best of my knowledge, however, there is nothing in the polygraph literature on the detection of countermeasures through observation of such differences. Quote: without conscious use of CM, is it normal for a truthful subject to have different breathing reactions to different (control) questions, or all reactions are supposed to show same pattern? I am aware of no research indicating that individuals always exhibit the same breathing reactions to stimuli. However, it's possible that such a folkloric belief exists among some polygraphers.

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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tedt3526 New User Offline Posts: 3 Joined: Oct 17^th, 2009	Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Reply #4 - Oct 20^th, 2009 at 6:39am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	George, would you recommend using different breathing countermeasures randomly on different control questions and/or different repetition of the test? If the subject uses a single CM (such as holding breath for 4 to 5 seconds) consistently for all control questions, maybe that produces too "pretty" a chart to arouse suspicion?


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George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6211 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Reply #5 - Oct 20^th, 2009 at 9:12am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	tedt3526 wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 6:39am: George, would you recommend using different breathing countermeasures randomly on different control questions and/or different repetition of the test? No, not necessarily. Quote: If the subject uses a single CM (such as holding breath for 4 to 5 seconds) consistently for all control questions, maybe that produces too "pretty" a chart to arouse suspicion? If all reactions appear identical (same magnitude, same duration), that might indeed arouse suspicion. Thus, there may be some benefit for varying the size and length of breathing countermeasures, even if the same countermeasure (e.g. breath holding) is used in each instance.

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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Joebrown Guest	Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Reply #6 - Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 12:05am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	OK. Just to make sure I am understanding correctly. If a person only uses one of the CM breathing methods and varies the magnitude and duration of that method. Then they don't have to use the other CM breathing methods and should not have a problem "passing" the "test" with just one CM breathing method. Thank You


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Amos Bill New User Offline Posts: 1 Location: Rr, Scotland, CT 06264 Joined: Jun 13^th, 2012 Gender:	Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Reply #7 - Jun 13^th, 2012 at 11:42am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Is it necessary to hold breath for 4-5 sec during the CM breathing methods? How will it work?

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stefano Ex Member	Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Reply #8 - Jun 13^th, 2012 at 9:04pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Amos Bill wrote on Jun 13^th, 2012 at 11:42am: Is it necessary to hold breath for 4-5 sec during the CM breathing methods? How will it work? Amos, no this is not correct. Please read TLBTLD carefully then come back with some residual questions.


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Daniel Rustburn Guest	Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern Reply #9 - Jul 11^th, 2012 at 11:44am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	The use of a CM will work if you enhance your breathing only at the control questions. Make the pattern identical and this will show consistency and you will pass the test.


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