Normal Topic CM vs relevant question breathing pattern (Read 13732 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box tedt3526
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 3
Joined: Oct 17th, 2009
CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Oct 18th, 2009 at 12:01am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The CM technique explained in TLBTLD does make sense. I have a question though. If you use breathing CM for a control question, let's say hold your breath 4 - 5 seconds. At the same time, you also have noticeable reaction to relevant question, but a different pattern, say decreased amplitude. Even though CM makes the control question reaction bigger than the relevant question reaction, but the fact is that these two reactions have different patterns. would that be a give away to the examiner? anyone has an opinion on that?
« Last Edit: Oct 18th, 2009 at 12:44am by tedt3526 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Reply #1 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 5:56am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
tedt3526,

The breathing countermeasures outlined in Chapter 4 of TLBTLD should result in the absence of significant reactions to the relevant questions.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box tedt3526
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 3
Joined: Oct 17th, 2009
Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Reply #2 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 3:51am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George, are you referring to the technique of practicing even and relatively shallow breath at 15-30 per minute? I understand that if the subject can breathe evenly during relevant question so the examiner sees no reaction, that would be ideal. however what if the subject is sensitive to the relevant question and involuntarily breathe in a different pattern? in that case, the poly examiner sees that relevant question produces a smaller, but different breathing reaction than the control question, and might get suspicious? 

without conscious use of CM, is it normal for a truthful subject to have different breathing reactions to different (control) questions, or all reactions are supposed to show same pattern?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Reply #3 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 4:09am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
tedt3526 wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 3:51am:
George, are you referring to the technique of practicing even and relatively shallow breath at 15-30 per minute?


Yes.

Quote:
I understand that if the subject can breathe evenly during relevant question so the examiner sees no reaction, that would be ideal. however what if the subject is sensitive to the relevant question and involuntarily breathe in a different pattern? in that case, the poly examiner sees that relevant question produces a smaller, but different breathing reaction than the control question, and might get suspicious?


I suppose that's possible. To the best of my knowledge, however, there is nothing in the polygraph literature on the detection of countermeasures through observation of such differences. 

Quote:
without conscious use of CM, is it normal for a truthful subject to have different breathing reactions to different (control) questions, or all reactions are supposed to show same pattern?


I am aware of no research indicating that individuals always exhibit the same breathing reactions to stimuli. However, it's possible that such a folkloric belief exists among some polygraphers.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box tedt3526
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 3
Joined: Oct 17th, 2009
Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Reply #4 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 6:39am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George, would you recommend using different breathing countermeasures randomly on different control questions and/or different repetition of the test? If the subject uses a single CM (such as holding breath for 4 to 5 seconds) consistently for all control questions, maybe that produces too "pretty" a chart to arouse suspicion?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Reply #5 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:12am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
tedt3526 wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 6:39am:
George, would you recommend using different breathing countermeasures randomly on different control questions and/or different repetition of the test?


No, not necessarily.

Quote:
If the subject uses a single CM (such as holding breath for 4 to 5 seconds) consistently for all control questions, maybe that produces too "pretty" a chart to arouse suspicion?


If all reactions appear identical (same magnitude, same duration), that might indeed arouse suspicion. Thus, there may be some benefit for varying the size and length of breathing countermeasures, even if the same countermeasure (e.g. breath holding) is used in each instance.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Joebrown
Guest


Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Reply #6 - Mar 3rd, 2012 at 12:05am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
OK. Just to make sure I am understanding correctly.

If a person only uses one of the CM breathing methods and varies the magnitude and duration of that method. Then they  don't have to use the other CM breathing methods and should not have a problem "passing" the "test" with just one CM breathing method.

Thank You
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Amos Bill
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 1
Location: Rr, Scotland, CT 06264
Joined: Jun 13th, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Reply #7 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 11:42am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Is it necessary to hold breath for 4-5 sec during the CM breathing methods? How will it work?
  
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
Ex Member


Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Reply #8 - Jun 13th, 2012 at 9:04pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Amos Bill wrote on Jun 13th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Is it necessary to hold breath for 4-5 sec during the CM breathing methods? How will it work? 

Amos, no this is not correct. Please read TLBTLD carefully then come back with some residual questions.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Daniel Rustburn
Guest


Re: CM vs relevant question breathing pattern
Reply #9 - Jul 11th, 2012 at 11:44am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The use of a CM will work if you enhance your breathing only at the control questions.  Make the pattern identical and this will show consistency and you will pass the test.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CM vs relevant question breathing pattern

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X