Normal Topic How British Paedophiles Can (And No Doubt Will) Fool the Lie Detector (Read 6077 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6122
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
How British Paedophiles Can (And No Doubt Will) Fool the Lie Detector
Jul 29th, 2009 at 8:41am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
On Tuesday, 28 July 2009, the British tabloid The Sun published an article by chief reporter John Kay on a 3-year pilot project by the UK Ministry of Justice to subject some 450 sex offenders to post-conviction polygraph screening. Kay sat in for a polygraph screening examination administered in Birmingham by US polygrapher Bill Scheve. Apparently relying on Scheve as his source, Kay reports: "It is virtually impossible to trick a lie-detector because it picks up signals of fear, which emanate from the hypothalamus gland in the neck."

Of course, this is laughably absurd. Or it would be laughable were the matter at hand not so serious. All that one needs to trick a lie detector is an understanding of the trickery on which the "test" itself depends and to covertly augment one's physiological reactions to the "control" questions, as is explained in detail in Chapters 3 & 4 of AntiPolygraph.org's free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (1 mb PDF).

Kay lists the questions that are asked on the polygraph screening exams as follows:

Quote:
DO you intend to answer each question truthfully?

DO you consider yourself to be a sex offender at risk?

HAVE you lied to any family or friends since your release from prison about anything serious?

SINCE your release have you been alone with anyone you knew was under 18?

SINCE your release have you violated any rules or conditions of your license?


The first question is a prototypical "sacrifice" relevant question and would not be scored.

The second and third questions, while appearing relevant, are actually probable-lie "control" questions. It is secretly assumed that even sex offenders who have not violated the terms of their probation will show a reaction to these questions.

The last two questions listed are the relevant ones -- the only ones that the probation department is really concerned about.

All that British sex offenders who have violated the terms of their probation and are subjected to such a screening "test" need to do in order to fool the lie detector is to 1) make no damaging admissions and 2) augment their reactions to the 2nd and 3rd questions listed above. This can be done by covertly biting down on the side of the tongue, thinking exciting thoughts, or doing mental arithmetic.

Far from it being "virtually impossible to trick a lie-detector," as Kay reports, it's quite simple. And it's no doubt going to happen.
« Last Edit: Jul 30th, 2009 at 5:55am by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box getrealalready
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 57
Joined: Oct 6th, 2007
Re: How British Paedophiles Can (And No Doubt Will) Fool the Lie Detector
Reply #1 - Jul 29th, 2009 at 10:45am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
One need go no further than the author's placing the hypothalamus in the neck to know what a lame brain this fellow is.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Joe McCarthy
God Member
*****
Offline


Tiocfaidh ár lá

Posts: 526
Location: The Shroud of The Foggy Dew
Joined: Mar 25th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: How British Paedophiles Can (And No Doubt Will) Fool the Lie Detector
Reply #2 - Aug 13th, 2009 at 4:24am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George,

As much as I hate swallowing what very little is left of my pride by defending one of Mr. Holden’s guys, what is right is what is right.  So here it goes.

I looked at the article.  I was almost giddy at the prospect that one of my nemeses may have said something so absurd or boneheaded and found you may be misinterpreting where that information came from.

The offending neck statement was not in quotation marks and therefore may have been from a boneheaded journalist rather than what I hoped it would have been.  I have always prided myself at being unbiased and impartial, even to those who wish me bad or seek to destroy me.  Much to my chagrin, I doubt Scheve said that the hypothalamus gland is in the neck. 

I will say that I hope this pilot program is being closely watched in regard to its independence and unbiased tests and data.  Let’s just say that I know things which are not in that article.  I just hope that Mr. Scheve does not have the same documented disregard for certain JPCOT or APA standards like his cohorts have in the past. 

Polygraph should be used in a manner which is fair, independent and unbiased and not as a tool to be utilized for the furtherance of an Orwellian society.  Polygraph has limits, just like anything else including VSA, MRI, or any other “lie detection” device which would be prone to operator or programming error.  Nothing should be the end all or be all. 

Let’s be fair here.  If you read the article closely, I am sure you will see my point.  I would love to say that one of Holden’s guys said something that stupid.  Nothing would give me more pleasure.  In all fairness, I can’t jump on that band wagon and I am asking that you be a wee bit more fair to Mr. Scheve in your assessment of that ill-fated sentence.

Lastly let’s look at the source here. IT’S A TABLOID.  It is nothing more than a rag sheet, which, according to wikipedia, was dubbed “the king of tabloids” in the 1990’s.  It runs articles which sell sensationalism with fact merely being a byproduct if existent in true form at all. This is not the Boston Globe or the Wall Street Journal here people.  You are counting in the journalistic integrity of a supermarket tabloid that I wouldn’t count on to tell me the weather.  Because if it were raining, the headline would probably read “THE SKY IS FALLING” just to make a few extra Euros.

The Wall Street Journal’s article with Holden trying to pass himself of as a psychologist holds more water than some British rag with their sloppy writing and piss poor fact checking.    

Erin Go Bragh

Joe McCarthy
  

Joe
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nomopolys4me
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 15
Joined: Jul 21st, 2009
Re: How British Paedophiles Can (And No Doubt Will) Fool the Lie Detector
Reply #3 - Aug 15th, 2009 at 12:43am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I would respectfully suggest the information printed in a tabloid newspaper is just about as reliable as the results of a polygraph.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: How British Paedophiles Can (And No Doubt Will) Fool the Lie Detector
Reply #4 - Aug 15th, 2009 at 5:30am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Yes, but at least you can use a tabloid NP as toilet paper!

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6122
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: How British Paedophiles Can (And No Doubt Will) Fool the Lie Detector
Reply #5 - Aug 15th, 2009 at 10:17am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Joe,

The key point here is that the notion that "it is virtually impossible to trick a lie-detector" is a dangerous delusion. Polygraph countermeasures are simple and effective.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
How British Paedophiles Can (And No Doubt Will) Fool the Lie Detector

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X