Normal Topic Interesting article in "Issues in Science and Technology" (Read 5029 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Interesting article in "Issues in Science and Technology"
Feb 12th, 2009 at 7:25pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~fienberg/faigman-polygraph-issues-2003.html

Titled  "The Limits of the Polygraph".  They do a very good job of covering the issue of court admissibility.

And, no, the authors are NOT phony Ph'Ds,  but rather well respected researchers from academia.

TC
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2009 at 5:59am by Administrator »  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nopolycop
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 383
Joined: Oct 20th, 2007
Re: Interesting article in "Issues in Science and Technology"
Reply #1 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 3:37am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
T.M. Cullen wrote on Feb 12th, 2009 at 7:25pm:
http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~fienberg/faigman-polygraph-issues-2003.html

Titled  "The Limits of the Polygraph".  They do a very good job of covering the issue of court admissibility.

And, no, the authors are NOT phony Ph'Ds,  but rather well respected researchers from academia.

TC


Link didn't work,
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Administrator
Administrator
*****
Offline



Posts: 334
Joined: Sep 28th, 2000
Re: Interesting article in "Issues in Science and Technology"
Reply #2 - Feb 13th, 2009 at 6:00am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The link in the original post has been fixed.
  

AntiPolygraph.org Administrator
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Lethe
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 233
Joined: Apr 15th, 2007
Re: Interesting article in "Issues in Science and Technology"
Reply #3 - Feb 18th, 2009 at 2:32am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Thank you, T.C.  A very interesting article--and by real PhDs to boot!

It was interesting to look at their example of the agency with 10,000 employees and 10 spies.  To get 80% of the spies more than 99.5% of the failed exams belonged to innocent people.  So, the average polygrapher would need to fail 100 people before there was even a 50% chance that he'd stopped a spy.  That's not an argument for or against anything, simply something interesting to consider.  I'm sure similar stats apply to screening exams.

It's scary how little evidence there really is that the polygraph actually helps make anything better in the real world.  But it is even scarier that polygraphers don't care and have no interest whatsoever in seeking such evidence. They've already got theirs, so what difference does it make if they're actually just screwing everyone else over? 

It would actually be fairly easy, using data that's already been collected for other purposes, to test whether pre-employment screening actually improves an agency's workforce.  Not theoretically, but actually.  Cold, hard data, right there waiting to be analyzed that can tell us what we're getting for our tax money.  But polygraphers don't want such a study to take place. 

I wonder why?  Doesn't the truth set you free?
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Interesting article in "Issues in Science and Technology"
Reply #4 - Feb 18th, 2009 at 2:46am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
It would actually be fairly easy, using data that's already been collected for other purposes, to test whether pre-employment screening actually improves an agency's workforce.  Not theoretically, but actually.  Cold, hard data, right there waiting to be analyzed that can tell us what we're getting for our tax money.  But polygraphers don't want such a study to take place. 

I wonder why?  Doesn't the truth set you free?i


Remember, you're talking about politicians and government bureaucrats.  They're not going to change policy because to do so would be an admission on their part that the poly policy of the last few decades has been a mistake.  Einstein himself could return from the grave, study the polygraph, and conclude what we already know about it, and it wouldn't matter.  There are two major rules in Washington:

1.  Trust no one!

2.  Never, EVER admit you screwed up.  COVER YOUR ASS!

There are basically two things the polygraph industry has going for it.  Few people will ever have to take a polygraph and therefore ever be in a position to experience what a fraud preemployment polygraphy is.  Also, the media (along with the population in general) are oblivious.

But that is okay.  This site still serves a function.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Lethe
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 233
Joined: Apr 15th, 2007
Re: Interesting article in "Issues in Science and Technology"
Reply #5 - Feb 18th, 2009 at 5:25pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
TC, there is validity to what you say.  But it doesn't explain the actions of the polygraph community.  They (1) claim to be helping, (2) admit they have no evidence that they're helping, but (3) don't want to obtain that evidence, though it could be easily done. 

This seems to indicate that they know they're really lying when they claim to be helping.  That is, they know they're lying when they claim to be helping society; they are being perfectly honest if they claim they are helping themselves.  That's what it's all about to them: get what you can and train/program yourself so that it doesn't bother you to screw over other people.  That's what drug dealers do.  Ever talk to people who sell drugs?  Ask them about it.  Listen to the way they rationalize it; it'll prove interesting.  I think most know that they're contributing to the crapping up of society, but they don't care because it helps them; it pays for them to deceive themselves.

Anyway, the APA really should look into declaring itself a religion.  Each polygrapher's office could count as a church and be exempted from property taxes.  And their fees could be considered offerings and also escape taxation.  And they could mail out their publications at non-profit bulk rates, too.  It sounds like a winner to me.
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Interesting article in "Issues in Science and Technology"

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X