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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang (Read 52016 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #30 - Oct 27th, 2008 at 3:36pm
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notguilty1 wrote on Oct 27th, 2008 at 2:43am:
when they say that Ridgeway passed his Polygraph it is understood that he was asked questions that pertained to his involvement in the murders that they were investigating


You're wrong.

You need to look up the difference between "understood" and "assumed"  

You should probably read the definition of "circular logic" as well. The statement that Polygraph doesn't work because Gary Ridgeway passed his polygraph somehow proves that Gary Ridgway passed his polygraph because polygraphs don't work would be a near classic example of circular logic, more properly called circular reasoning.

Besides this is just one of the plausible explanations offered. 

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #31 - Oct 27th, 2008 at 9:05pm
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A follow-up article by Associated Press reporter Thomas Watkins suggests that the ATF agents who infiltrated the Mongols biker gang were indeed trained in polygraph countermeasures and used them successfully:

Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_re_us/biker_gang_busts;_ylt=AgujwtFpKR...

Polygraphs tested mettle of agents in biker case
By THOMAS WATKINS, Associated Press
Mon Oct 27, 8:16 pm ET

WEST COVINA, Calif. – Weeks of drinking and carousing to win acceptance in a notorious motorcycle gang came down to a nerve-racking moment for three undercover federal agents: taking a polygraph examination in a room full of armed bikers.

Flunking could threaten what would become a three-year probe into the Mongols Motorcycle Club — not to mention the agents' own safety.

Federal prosecutors say all three Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents were prepared for the challenge and passed the tests, critical moments in the investigation that culminated last week in multistate raids and at least 64 arrests on charges including murder, drug trafficking and torture.

The Mongols had been infiltrated before, so gang leaders went to extraordinary lengths to test their "prospects," including running background checks and having a private investigator administer the polygraph tests.

The Mongols ratcheted up pressure by standing directly behind the agents while they were hooked up to the polygraph, Assistant U.S. Attorney Christopher Brunwin said.

"Is it scarier to see the threat that is facing you, or ... taking a lie detector test while someone is standing behind you with a weapon?" the prosecutor said. "They could be getting ready to shoot."

Each agent had been given all they needed to assume a new life — an apartment away from their family, a new Social Security number and a cover story. They had also been trained to pass the lie detector.

"It's a remarkable undertaking that the agents whose lives were at risk displayed this level of courage," Brunwin said.

In all, four ATF agents were accepted into the Mongols "brotherhood," though one agent was not required to take a polygraph test. Officials did not say why.

John Torres, the ATF agent in charge in Los Angeles, declined to discuss how the three beat the polygraph, but said undercover agents generally compile cover stories that echo their own lives so they can tell them more believably.

"Our guys are highly trained and they were pretty much hand selected to do this mission and for their ability to think fast under pressure and beat the box," Torres said, referring to the polygraph machine.

Though the ATF is able to train its agents to pass a polygraph test, the agency still uses lie detectors as part of its screening of potential new hires. ATF spokesman Mike Hoffman said the polygraph is just one of a slew of tests of a candidate's background.

A straightforward polygraph test is accurate about 90 percent of the time, said Edward Gelb, a Los Angeles-based polygraph examiner and past president of the American Polygraph Association. To beat the odds, people can learn how to control their pulse, breathing rates and other responses, though doing so convincingly can be tricky.

"They would have to learn to control their responses without appearing to be controlling them," Gelb said.

California polygraph examiners do not require any state certification, so Gelb wondered how much experience the Mongols' tester had.

The Mongols' background checks and lie-detector tests were not only to prevent a repeat of the 1998 infiltration that led to at least 29 arrests, but to assess aspiring members' willingness to commit crimes for the gang, prosecutors said.

Mongols circulated photographs of the undercover agents among the criminal underworld to see if anyone recognized them, Brunwin said.

On one occasion, a Mongol grew suspicious after coming across an old photograph of one agent posing with ATF colleagues.

"They were telling him, this sure looks like you," Brunwin said. "It seemed like he'd been caught."

The agent convinced them it wasn't him.

Torres said not all agents can handle undercover work. Those that do it feed off the thrill of maintaining a facade.

"It is the adrenaline, it's being able to get one over on the bad guy," Torres said.

Torres said the agents in the Mongols investigation never committed a crime during the investigation, he said, and were still subject to random drug tests.

Four women colleagues posed as girlfriends to help in the ruse, providing backup and an excuse that allowed the male agents to avoid having sex with women who hung out with Mongols, Brunwin said.

According to the indictment, the Mongols awarded each other special clothing patches, or "wings," after they engaged in extreme sex acts, like having sex with a woman with a venereal disease.

The 84-count racketeering indictment against the primarily Latino gang lists allegations including murder, attempted murder, racially motivated attacks on black people, torture, and gun and drug offenses. At least 44 defendants have appeared in court, all of them pleading not guilty. It wasn't immediately known if they had been assigned defense attorneys.

Last week, the government barred Mongols members from wearing clothing displaying the group's trademarked name or logo in what was called a first-of-its-kind seizure of a gang's intellectual property.

Among those arrested were the gang's former national president Ruben "Doc" Cavazos and current president Hector "Largo" Gonzalez. The gang is based in Southern California, but federal and local agents arrested members is six states from the West Coast to the Midwest.

Until his arrest, Cavazos lived with his son and other family members at a home on a quiet and well-to-do street with sweeping mountain views in West Covina, about 20 miles east of Los Angeles. Neighbors said he moved in a couple years ago and had landscaped the front of his property with a new retaining wall and several palm trees.

A woman at the house who declined to identify herself said Cavazos worked as a hospital CAT scan technician.

A neighbor who asked not to be named for fear of retaliation said he often would often be woken at 3 or 4 a.m. by the sound of several motorbikes.
« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2008 at 6:40am by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #32 - Oct 27th, 2008 at 9:23pm
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Quote:
Though the ATF is able to train its agents to pass a polygraph test, the agency still uses lie detectors as part of its screening of potential new hires. ATF spokesman Mike Hoffman said the polygraph is just one of a slew of tests of a candidate's background.


Just one of a slew?   

Passing a polygraph is absolutely required to get a job at ATF/FBI...etc.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #33 - Oct 27th, 2008 at 11:48pm
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So all this Pelosi (nicer word for bullshit) that countermeasures don't work is just that. Huh? This speaks well for our security organization's reliance on the polygraph. 
doesn't it? And our stupid poluted congress allows it to happen just as they are allowing this country to be controlled by the world banking system.

Old Baron Rothschild once made the statement "Give me control of a country's wealth and I will care not about their laws"
  
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #34 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 6:49am
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Very interesting.

This would seem to confirm not only are countermeasures effective, but also that the same government agencies utilizing polygraphs in pre-employment screening are fully aware of how easily they can be defeated.
  

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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #35 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 2:57pm
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Sergeant1107 wrote on Oct 28th, 2008 at 6:49am:
Very interesting.

This would seem to confirm not only are countermeasures effective, but also that the same government agencies utilizing polygraphs in pre-employment screening are fully aware of how easily they can be defeated.


Yes, seems to be quite a blow to Poligraphy and polygraph operators.
  
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #36 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 6:20am
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Hi, cesium back again...

Quote:

A straightforward polygraph test is accurate about 90 percent of the time, said Edward Gelb, a Los Angeles-based polygraph examiner and past president of the American Polygraph Association.

Ninety percent?  I have heard 98% from some corners of their peanut gallery.  Backtracking?

To beat the odds, people can learn how to control their pulse, breathing rates and other responses, though doing so convincingly can be tricky.

"They would have to learn to control their responses without appearing to be controlling them," Gelb said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_re_us/biker_gang_busts;_ylt=AgujwtFpKR...

So it -can- be done.  I thought countermeasures were detectable by a "skilled polygrapher".  Tongue  I even had one tell me he taught their detection at Quantico.  I also don't know how it's tricky.  If you're not using props like a tack in the shoe, it's internal, so what's the tricky part?  Probably Gelb injecting some fiction for sensationalism purposes.

Okay, so control your responses and look casual at doing it.  Blackjack players do that all the time and count the heck out of a 6-deck shoe in the process.  Must be about as easy for a poly.  And it's -not- hard to control physiological responses, for I did so using techniques I learned here.  I am no actor or Houdini who can control involuntary actions.

I still have to hand it to those agents for not totally losing it in the face of those bikers.  Every CM in the world is useless if you're 180/110 with a 140 pulse... probably (lol).  Though such a high baseline could mask any reaction to a question...
  

Polygraphers escaped from among the evils of Pandora's box, which might have been an old analog polygraph... only God can tell whether you're lying or not, and He will judge you in His own time...
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #37 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 6:46am
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It's worth noting that Ed Gelb failed to detect the crude countermeasures Harmon Leon employed when he infiltrated the Lie Detector television program.
  

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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #38 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 2:01pm
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George:  Is this you talking about your own "reputable polygraph examiner"?

Falsely Accused: A resource for those…falsely-accused.…3:16

http://www.falsely-accused.com/library/faqs.html◀ Back to resultsFalsely Accused: A resource for those falsely accused

  
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #39 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 2:10pm
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George.  Is this your "for profit" website?  And why did you feel it necessary to sell out to the polygraph industry?  Why call your personal polygraph associate "reputable" when you are so against polygraph testing?   

http://www.falsely-accused.com/library/faqs.html

I know this is you - Live Search - polygraph - videos - about page 8!

What's up?
  
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #40 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 2:26pm
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Yes, it is George!  Looks like he is trying to pass himself off as a lawyer.

Go to Go to page:  http://www.falsely-accused.com/library/faqs.html

Click on question below:

Should I submit to a polygraph examination?

Tell me is isn't so!!  George referring to his polygraph associate as a "reputable polygrapher"!!   

  
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #41 - Oct 29th, 2008 at 7:12pm
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Quote:
Yes, it is George!  Looks like he is trying to pass himself off as a lawyer.

Go to Go to page:  http://www.falsely-accused.com/library/faqs.html

Click on question below:

Should I submit to a polygraph examination?

Tell me is isn't so!!  George referring to his polygraph associate as a "reputable polygrapher"!!  




I guess it depends on who pays George.  He calls those polygraphers that are in business with him "reputable" - and those that call him a liar are not!  What about this George?  You have this website "dedicated to exposing and ending polygraph waste, fraud, and abuse" and the other you have one referring people to your own polygraph associate who you describe as "reputable".  Care to offer an explanation, George?
  
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #42 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 1:31am
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Is there anything on that site that lists George by name?  I didn't see anything that did.

The person in the video doesn't look like George.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Reply #43 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 1:50am
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Posts in this thread by "U.P. Chuck" and "Dis May Ed" suggesting that I am somehow connected with a website called Falsely-Accused.com originated from a single IP address that traces to Norman, Oklahoma, home of Doug Williams, who in the past has masqueraded on this website as a satisfied customer of his own services and last year bizarrely challenged me to a fistfight, stating: "I look forward to beating your bloated face into a bloody pulp, and stomping your fat ass."

For the record, I have no connection with Falsely-Accused.com.
« Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2008 at 2:23am by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
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Re: ATF Agents Beat the Polygraph to Infiltrate Mongols Motorcycle Gang
Reply #44 - Oct 30th, 2008 at 2:14am
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Quote:
Posts in this thread by "U.P. Chuck" and "Dis May Ed" suggesting that I am somehow connected with a website called FalselyAccused.com originated from a single IP address that traces to Norman, Oklahoma, home of Doug Williams, who in the past has masqueraded on this website as a satisfied customer of his own services and last year bizarrely challenged me to a fistfight, stating: "I look forward to beating your bloated face into a bloody pulp, and stomping your fat ass."

For the record, I have no connection with FalselyAccused.com.


Didn't Doug Williams used to be a polygrapher?  That profession must really do something to people.  Even those who have disavowed the polygraph and have come clean about it.

Or maybe you're just having an effect on his bottom line, even though this site is non-profit.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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