Normal Topic MRI truth assesment (Read 4781 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box notguilty1
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 300
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2008
MRI truth assesment
Jun 4th, 2008 at 1:04am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I was listening to a radio talk show today and there is a company now who is trying to get a MRI truth assement machine on the market.
The person from the company No Lie MRI was saying that the machine shows oxegen use in parts of the brain that are used when one lies.
A neurologist called in to dispute that the brain works that way when it come to lying. He claimed the human brain simply does not have a set part of it that can be soley used for fabicating a lie and that detecting a lie or assesing truthfulness can not be readily seen on an MRI as one would if a picture of something repulsive or scary was show to the subject.
So my question perhaps to George. Is this another witch hunt or can it be that we may have a geniune lie detector?
By the way all experts on this show agreed that current polygraph is not reliable for use in lie detection that is why results are not admissable in court.  A lawyer with 30 + yrs in criminal law was on to say that the reason that laws against the use of polygraph have been established by courts is simple.
To be accepted polygraph (or any other process) has to be proven by a battery of independant scientific tests if it doesn't as polygraph doesn't it simply cannot be used.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: MRI truth assesment
Reply #1 - Jun 4th, 2008 at 8:17am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Would the radio program you listened to happen to be this one from KPBS San Diego?

http://www.kpbs.org/radio/these_days?id=11868

I haven't yet listened to the program, but the marketing is clearly way ahead of the science on fMRI-based lie detection. It seems that the methodological problems that beset CQT polygraphy apply also to fMRI-based lie tests now being hawked by No Lie MRI and Cephos Corporation.

See the blog for more on this topic:

https://antipolygraph.org/blog/?cat=6
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box notguilty1
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 300
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2008
Re: MRI truth assesment
Reply #2 - Jun 4th, 2008 at 3:19pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Hi George,
Yes it was KPBS.
Thats what I thought and the expert on the program basically confirmed wht you said. Sounds like again a unproven technology that will be shoved down our throats regardless of accuacy.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 441
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: MRI truth assesment
Reply #3 - Jun 5th, 2008 at 2:34pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
ng1

It can't be shoved down your throat unless you open wide and say ah.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Lethe
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 233
Joined: Apr 15th, 2007
Re: MRI truth assesment
Reply #4 - Jun 5th, 2008 at 6:52pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I am reminded of those cartoons images that show a small fish about to be eaten by a larger fish which, in turn, is about to be eaten by an even larger fish.

You have your voice stress people claiming that is a reliable lie detector--and that it can be yours for such and such a number of easy monthly installments.  Then the polygraph people who are totally unified against voice stress analysis and produce a bunch of good data against it.  Instead of VSA you should use the polygraph--financing available!  Then the MRI people are opposed to the polygraph but, of course, all about how awesome their technology is--coming soon to a job near you.

History shows that it is relatively easy to get people to believe a falsehood if they either (1) hope that it is true or (2) fear that it is true.  The polygraph itself takes advantage of this (and many other) psychological shortcoming(s) in very obvious ways.

We'd all like there to be a magic box that can tell us who the bad guys are.  And we all fear being detected in most of the lies that we tell, so we also wouldn't want such a thing to be used on us.  But just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true.  You've got to look at the data, not rely on bandwagon arguments (which are logical fallacies).

I don't know much about the MRI technology, other than that it is in early stages of development and shows some promise of being able to detect lies above chance levels.  My suspicion is that human cognition is far too complicated to ever allow lies to be detected with anything above a 90% success rate, which is about what the polygraph can get under totally ideal circumstances (which, alas, almost never exist outside of very carefully controlled laboratory conditions).

I like science fiction as much as the next guy, but let's hold off on the brain probes until they're proven to work, people.
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MRI truth assesment

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X