Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail? (Read 13024 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dr_Shakalu
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 8
Joined: May 1st, 2008
Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
May 1st, 2008 at 4:01am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Hey everyone, I'm new here and I will be taking a polygraph test for the police dept.  I was wondering, if the person giving the test asked hypothetically if you've ever robbed a bank, and you've thought about robbing a bank before, will that make you fail.  Thanks for your input, The Doctor.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6119
Location: Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #1 - May 1st, 2008 at 4:24am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
If having contemplated an act that is the subject of a relevant polygraph question makes you anxious when that question is asked, then yes, it could contribute to one's failing the polygraph. One fails when one's reactions to the relevant questions are stronger than one's reactions to the corresponding control/comparison questions. For more on polygraph procedure, see Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #2 - May 1st, 2008 at 4:47am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Hey everyone, I'm new here and I will be taking a polygraph test for the police dept.  I was wondering, if the person giving the test asked hypothetically if you've ever robbed a bank, and you've thought about robbing a bank before, will that make you fail.


FOR GOD'S SAKE!  Don't ever tell a police polygrapher you have thought about robbing a bank!  If they have gotten a reaction from you already on a relevant question of that nature, an admission such as that is the kind of shit they are looking for.

This brings up an interesting point.  The F3 (Fight, flight, freeze) response the machine actually measures is an unconscious reaction that doesn't distinguish between fact or fantasy.  So just because you "react" during the test doesn't mean Jack Diddley shit!  You may have fantasized about robbing a bank, raping Angela Jolie...etc., but that doesn't mean you've done those things.

So if you have never committed a crime, and that is the question, just answer "no".  Making an "eye brow raising" admission like that will just make the sharks circle.

BTW, they got ME to admit to something I had fantasized about, and never let up, and that is what did me in on my test in 2000.

TC

P.S.  Don't say anything to a polygrapher you wouldn't want repeated to the person or group of people who will MAKE THE HIRING DECISION!
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box notguilty1
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 300
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2008
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #3 - May 1st, 2008 at 3:14pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Dr_Shakalu wrote on May 1st, 2008 at 4:01am:
Hey everyone, I'm new here and I will be taking a polygraph test for the police dept.  I was wondering, if the person giving the test asked hypothetically if you've ever robbed a bank, and you've thought about robbing a bank before, will that make you fail.  Thanks for your input, The Doctor.


Dr,
Welcome aboard!
Any queston that would stir a internal response WILL casue you to fail.
This may be for many reasons YES including lying.
I was Polygraphed for a theft ( that I didn't do) I went with the absolut intent to prove I was not involved by simply telling the truth easy right?? BUT......... FAILED!
Now get ready becasue you are going to get a response fom Sackett or other examners telling you you have nothing to worry about if you just simply tell the truth. Don't buy it.
Of course personally I don't condone lying and I don't know if you intend to lie. But the point is that it may not matter it's really a flip of a coin Pass/Fail inspite of truthfulness.
Good luck Doc
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #4 - May 1st, 2008 at 5:59pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Well Doc,

I see the usual suspects have beaten me to the reponse.  That's right, think of a tree when asked about stealing and you'll fail... Did I ever smoke marijuana, no?  Not to worry, you'll fail that too.  Remember, only the innocent fail and the guilty pass.  Polygraph doesn't work... If you keep that in mind, you'll fit right in here.

Now for my real response.  I used to ask former armored car drivers if they ever thought about stealing the money in the back as an interview (truth) type question.  If they said no, I knew they were lying because it would be a natural process to at least contemplate it.  Maybe not to plan it, but to think of it in passing, yes.  Sort of like suicide..

Thinking about something you haven't done and have no memory of will NOT cause you to fail, regardless of the propaganda you read here.  Full disclosures (without minimization, rationalization, avoidance and lying) to ensure no residual threats exist during testing is the only way to pass.  Of course, the "anti-trolls" have already given you my answer...

Be completely honest and good luck,


Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #5 - May 1st, 2008 at 6:24pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Doc,

Read the "lie behind the lie detector", which can be downloaded from the home page of this site.

If you think you can't fail by telling the truth, nothing but the truth so help you God, then read what the nation's top scientific researchers had to say about the polygraph:

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309084369

They recommended doing away with preemployment polygraphs altogether.  Mandatory testing is already illegal except for LE and Fed Intelligence agencies. 

TC

P.S. Don't say anything you wouldn't want the hiring authority to know about.  Polygraphers want to see how much they can "get out of you", and they try to con you into believing they want to help you and that is the only way you will pass, and that if you react it must be because you are holding back.  That is not the case.  If you react, tell them you thought about stealing an ice cream bar at the local drug store.  NOT ROBBING A BANK!
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #6 - May 1st, 2008 at 6:46pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Yes, do read it.  They also recommend additional research, do they not?!  

Why then, would the esteemed council of "unbiased and neutral" scientists report their findings from their selective meta-analysis and include the need for additional research; in something they (allegedly) find non-scientific, non-viable and unreliable?  Confouding and confusing, is it not?

Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6119
Location: Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #7 - May 1st, 2008 at 7:16pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
sackett wrote on May 1st, 2008 at 6:46pm:
Why then, would the esteemed council of "unbiased and neutral" scientists report their findings from their selective meta-analysis and include the need for additional research; in something they (allegedly) find non-scientific, non-viable and unreliable?  Confouding and confusing, is it not?


Save your indignation, Jim. There's no need to put "unbiased and neutral" in quotation marks in reference to the National Academy of Sciences' Committee to Review the Evidence on the Polygraph. A sine qua non criterion for selection to participate on the panel was to not have a vested interest in the outcome of the research review. Names of proposed members were published in advance, and the public had every opportunity to object to the inclusion of any member. To my knowledge, no objections were made.

The panel were necessarily selective in their choice of studies to review because most of what's been published by polygraphers in trade journals like Polygraph lacks scientific rigor.

The NAS panel's conclusions regarding polygraphy, cited at pp. 212-13 of its report, are quite damning (emphasis in the original):

Quote:
Polygraph Accuracy Almost a century of research in scientific psychology and physiology provides little basis for the expectation that a polygraph test could have extremely high accuracy. The physiological responses measured by the polygraph are not uniquely related to deception. That is, the responses measured by the polygraph do not all reflect a single underlying process: a variety of psychological and physiological processes, including some that can be consciously controlled, can affect polygraph measures and test results. Moreover, most polygraph testing procedures allow for uncontrolled variation in test administration (e.g., creation of the emotional climate, selecting questions) that can be expected to result in variations in accuracy and that limit the level of accuracy that can be consistently achieved.

Theoretical Basis The theoretical rationale for the polygraph is quite weak, especially in terms of differential fear, arousal, or other emotional states that are triggered in response to relevant or comparison questions. We have not found any serious effort at construct validation of polygraph testing.

Research Progress Research on the polygraph has not progressed over time in the manner of a typical scientific field. It has not accumulated knowledge or strengthened its scientific underpinnings in any significant manner. Polygraph research has proceeded in relative isolation from related fields of basic science and has benefited little from conceptual, theoretical, and technological advances in those fields that are relevant to the psychophysiological detection of deception.

Future Potential The inherent ambiguity of the physiological measures used in the polygraph suggest that further investments in improving polygraph technique and interpretation will bring only modest improvements in accuracy.


That's about  as strong a condemnation one will find in a consensus scientific report. Speaking more plainly, the Commitee's chairman, Professor Stephen Feinberg stated, "Polygraph testing has been the gold standard, but it's obviously fool's gold."
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #8 - May 2nd, 2008 at 2:23am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
And compare that with what my  NSA polygrapher (Mr. Lingenfelter) said.  That the test is 98% accurate.  He was UNABLE to point to any study to back that up, and quickly changed the subject!

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box notguilty1
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 300
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2008
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #9 - May 2nd, 2008 at 2:23am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
sackett wrote on May 1st, 2008 at 5:59pm:
Well Doc,

I see the usual suspects have beaten me to the reponse.  That's right, think of a tree when asked about stealing and you'll fail... Did I ever smoke marijuana, no?  Not to worry, you'll fail that too.  Remember, only the innocent fail and the guilty pass.  Polygraph doesn't work... If you keep that in mind, you'll fit right in here.

Now for my real response.  I used to ask former armored car drivers if they ever thought about stealing the money in the back as an interview (truth) type question.  If they said no, I knew they were lying because it would be a natural process to at least contemplate it.  Maybe not to plan it, but to think of it in passing, yes.  Sort of like suicide..

Thinking about something you haven't done and have no memory of will NOT cause you to fail, regardless of the propaganda you read here.  Full disclosures (without minimization, rationalization, avoidance and lying) to ensure no residual threats exist during testing is the only way to pass.  Of course, the "anti-trolls" have already given you my answer...

Be completely honest and good luck,


Sackett


You see Doc this is the trouble with Polygraphers. They know that their technology doesn't work so they have to rely on their judgement. As you can see Sackett points out that an amoured car driver could not possibly be so honest as to never have thought of stealing the money they are transporting!! So if you answerd truthfully and had the missfortune to be examined by Sackett you would be pegged  untruthfull, even before he hooks you to his silly machine.
I always encourage Sackett to keep talking and he never fails to deliver.
SACKETT HAS NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT THAT DRIVER WAS LYING IN HIS ANSWER AND NIETHER DOES HIS MACHINE!!
However, we can chalk up yet another qulification Polygrapher, Doctor now...... mind reader.
Hey Sackett you can save your agency money by just scrapping the polygraph and just let you judge!!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box notguilty1
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 300
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2008
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #10 - May 2nd, 2008 at 2:28am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
T.M. Cullen wrote on May 2nd, 2008 at 2:23am:
And compare that with what my  NSA polygrapher (Mr. Lingenfelter) said.  That the test is 98% accurate.  He was UNABLE to point to any study to back that up, and quickly changed the subject!

TC


My polygrapher said 98% too and added that my research on Poly's "probably hurt me" so much for truth!!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #11 - May 2nd, 2008 at 2:28am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George,

I'll save nothing on this board.  You may have it all, indignation and everything!

You have your opinion about the NAS review and I have mine.  But fair and unbiased, it was not.  

Additionally, hypothetically speaking (meaning that you have a supportive base in the application of polgraph), what exact science and scientists do you feel polygraph should be validated by?  Psychology? Biology? Physiology? Sociology/Criminology? Human Sciences?

Before you answer, I submit my belief is that this is the very reason polygraph has such a difficult time being validated and verified by any group of various disciplined scientists.  Exactly which accepted discipline will do the verifying?  

Polygraph requires a little of each and yet none of the sciences truly accept the practice without some form of qualification or caviat.  Not because it doesn't work, but because the variety of disciplines being applied in the process have their own individual understanding, individual within each discipline and their own agendas, supporting their scientific belief systems.

Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Evan S
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 67
Joined: Dec 22nd, 2007
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #12 - May 2nd, 2008 at 2:31am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Dr_Shakalu raises an excellent question.  I have always wondered if the polygraph can distinguish between reality and fantasy.  How can this be subjected to rigorous scientific testing?

My involvement with the polygraph is that I must take and pass a periodic CSP in order to retain my security clearance.  I took two polygraph tests in 1994 and four in 2000.  When I brought up the subject of a dream (in which I dreamed the IRA wanted to hire me as a terrorist), it so unnerved the federal polygrapher that he had to excuse himself to discuss this issue with his supervisor (or so I was led into believing).  I think he had to reformulate the terrorism question (from "Have you ever committed terrorism against the United States?" to "Other than what you told me, have you ever committed terrorism against the United States?") so that I could "get through" the CSP.  It makes one wonder if these highly-trained federal polygraphers receive training in dealing with fantasies (including speculating, empathizing, and dreaming).

I expect our polygrapher friends to respond to my question by giving their official response: "A properly-trained polygrapher knows how to correctly construct the test questions."


Regards,
Evan S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #13 - May 2nd, 2008 at 2:38am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Evan S wrote on May 2nd, 2008 at 2:31am:
Dr_Shakalu raises an excellent question.  I have always wondered if the polygraph can distinguish between reality and fantasy.  How can this be subjected to rigorous scientific testing?

My involvement with the polygraph is that I must take and pass a periodic CSP in order to retain my security clearance.  I took two polygraph tests in 1994 and four in 2000.  When I brought up the subject of a dream (in which I dreamed the IRA wanted to hire me as a terrorist), it so unnerved the federal polygrapher that he had to excuse himself to discuss this issue with his supervisor (or so I was led into believing).  I think he had to reformulate the terrorism question (from "Have you ever committed terrorism against the United States?" to "Other than what you told me, have you ever committed terrorism against the United States?") so that I could "get through" the CSP.  It makes one wonder if these highly-trained federal polygraphers receive training in dealing with fantasies (including speculating, empathizing, and dreaming).

I expect our polygrapher friends to respond to my question by giving their official response: "A properly-trained polygrapher knows how to correctly construct the test questions."


Regards,
Evan S


Evan,  notwithstanding your sarcasm related to an expected answer, polygraph exminations can not be used to test state of mind issues.  Period!

This is why shows like Moment of Truth, Maury, etc, piss off the professional polygraph community because it does little to support the truth about polygraph and adds cannon fodder to boards like this who blindly want to believe any disinformative polygraph information projected and abilities falsely promoted.

Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?
Reply #14 - May 2nd, 2008 at 4:10am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Evan,

The polygraph machine attempts to measure FIGHT-FLIGHT-FREEZE reactions to questions asked of a test subject.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Such reactions are autonomic/subconscious, yet the test subject is asked to SPECULATE (with their conscious minds) as to what could be  causing such a reaction.  "Yo, subconscious, why you be runnin up my BP and shit?"

Maybe shrinks should simply ask patients with phobias WHY they are so afraid of (snakes, heights, clowns...etc.).  That would save hundreds of hours of psycho-therapy and save a lot of money!

The polygraphers job is to convince the testee that this subconscious reaction can ONLY MEAN DECEPTION.  You must be holding back...etc.
What better way to get the bloke to volunteer information they'd never disclose otherwise.  (See the quote at the bottom of my post).

TC
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2008 at 5:32am by T.M. Cullen »  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Will Thinking About Something Make You Fail?

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X