AntiPolygraph.org Message Board - The Polygraph Paradox

(UTC)

Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

You can enhance your privacy when browsing and posting to this forum by using the free and open source Tor Browser and posting as a guest (using a fake e-mail address such as nobody@nowhere.com) or registering with a free, anonymous ProtonMail e-mail account. Registered users can exchange private messages with other registered users and receive notifications.

In addition, check out our live chat server.

AntiPolygraph.org Message Board › Polygraph and CVSA Forums › Post-Conviction Polygraph Programs › The Polygraph Paradox

(Moderator: Administrator)

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

Pages: 1

Add Poll

Send Topic

The Polygraph Paradox (Read 6846 times)

George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6211 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	The Polygraph Paradox Mar 22^nd, 2008 at 7:35am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Today's (22 March 2008) Wall Street Journal features a front-page article about post-conviction polygraph screening by Laurie P. Cohen titled, "The Polygraph Paradox." A PDF copy is attached to this post for discussion purposes. The central argument of this article is that polygraphy doesn't have to be scientifically sound to have utility for deterring violations of parole or probation. Unfortunately, the Journal's editors did a poor job fact-checking this article (if they did so at all). The numerous inaccuracies begin with a glaring mis-statement in the second paragraph: "Confessions made under polygraph aren't admitted as evidence in a vast majority of U.S. courts without the consent of the accused." The opposite is true. My key criticism of this article, however, is that while it focuses on the utility, as opposed to the validity of polygraphy, it devotes no space to consideration of the disutility of reliance on a pseudoscientific technique that is inherently biased against the truthful yet easily passed by liars using simple countermeasures that polygraphers have no demonstrated ability to detect.

	The_Polygraph_Paradox_-_WSJ_com.pdf ( 285 KB \| Downloads ) George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
	WWW Twitter YouTube IP Logged

yankeedog Senior User Offline Posts: 68 Joined: Jul 25^th, 2002	Re: The Polygraph Paradox Reply #1 - Mar 22^nd, 2008 at 12:58pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	George, Quote: "Confessions made under polygraph aren't admitted as evidence in a vast majority of U.S. courts without the consent of the accused." The opposite is true. I read the same article and I agree that the above statement is not accurate. Confessions, if obtained in accordance with the law, are admitted as evidence against the defendant. Is it not amazing that confessions are made after the implementation of a test that you incorrectly claim does not work! . Quote: ...easily passed by liars using simple countermeasures that polygraphers have no demonstrated ability to detect. Please provde specific peer reviewed research to support you assertion. Also, please answer the other question I asked of you about a month ago, which is, "What do you think is the purpose of a pre-employment polygraph examination?" This is not a trick question. I merely would like to know your opinion of the purpose of the pre-employment test.


	IP Logged

pailryder Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 441 Joined: Jun 5^th, 2006	Re: The Polygraph Paradox Reply #2 - Mar 22^nd, 2008 at 1:13pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	excellent questions ydog

	No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers. David Thoreson Lykken
	IP Logged

the_wolf New User Offline Posts: 14 Joined: Dec 6^th, 2005	Re: The Polygraph Paradox Reply #3 - Mar 22^nd, 2008 at 8:21pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	George W. Maschke wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2008 at 7:35am: Today's (22 March 2008) Wall Street Journal features a front-page article about post-conviction polygraph screening by Laurie P. Cohen titled, "The Polygraph Paradox." A PDF copy is attached to this post for discussion purposes. The central argument of this article is that polygraphy doesn't have to be scientifically sound to have utility for deterring violations of parole or probation. Unfortunately, the Journal's editors did a poor job fact-checking this article (if they did so at all). The numerous inaccuracies begin with a glaring mis-statement in the second paragraph: "Confessions made under polygraph aren't admitted as evidence in a vast majority of U.S. courts without the consent of the accused." The opposite is true. My key criticism of this article, however, is that while it focuses on the utility, as opposed to the validity of polygraphy, it devotes no space to consideration of the disutility of reliance on a pseudoscientific technique that is inherently biased against the truthful yet easily passed by liars using simple countermeasures that polygraphers have no demonstrated ability to detect. There is a reason the term utility is used a lot now. It keeps examiners protected from what may be a false + or -. It also gives the examiner the ability to call an NDI chart an inconclusive chart when the examiner has a "gut feeling" they the examinee isn't telling the truth or may have engaged in CM's but the examiner can't prove it. I was in a class once where a prominent polygraph examiner in the community who is billed as one of the foremost authorities said; "if you get an NDI chart and you have a gut feeling, judge it DI or inconclusive. Then mark the folder with the words utility test". I believe it was someone in the DFW area with the initials E. H. that coined this stupid term, “utility test”. Yet as an examiner I see nowhere in the APA or JPCOT guidelines that approve the use of a “utility test”. I wonder how many truthful people went back to prison or jail based on a “utility test”. Things that make you say hmmmmmmm.


	IP Logged

George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6211 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Re: The Polygraph Paradox Reply #4 - Mar 23^rd, 2008 at 9:26am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	yankeedog, Peer-reviewed research supporting my statement that lie detector tests are easily passed through the use of simple countermeasures is cited in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. Regarding you statement, "Is it not amazing that confessions are made after the implementation of a test that you incorrectly claim does not work!" No, not really. You would agree that voice stress analysis is junk science, yes? And yet voice stress operators obtain confessions. Both the polygraph and the voice stress analyzer depend on the same basic deception: duping the examinee into believing that he has been caught in a lie. The examinee who knows the truth about these bogus tests is unlikely to make any admission to a polygraph/voice stress operator that he wouldn't make to an interrogator not using these interrogational props.

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
	WWW Twitter YouTube IP Logged

yankeedog Senior User Offline Posts: 68 Joined: Jul 25^th, 2002	Re: The Polygraph Paradox Reply #5 - Mar 23^rd, 2008 at 2:58pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	George W. Maschke wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2008 at 9:26am: Peer-reviewed research supporting my statement that lie detector tests are easily passed through the use of simple countermeasures is cited in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. No, it is not. Chapter 4 of TLBTLD are merely discussions of the types of rudimentary countermeasures one may attempt. Quote: You would agree that voice stress analysis is junk science, yes? The research would suggest that it is.


	IP Logged

George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6211 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Re: The Polygraph Paradox Reply #6 - Mar 23^rd, 2008 at 3:15pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	yankeedog, If you think that Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector lacks citations to peer-reviewed research, you evidently haven't read it carefully.

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
	WWW Twitter YouTube IP Logged

TheNoLieGuy4U Senior User Offline Posts: 97 Joined: Nov 7^th, 2004	Re: The Polygraph Paradox Reply #7 - Mar 23^rd, 2008 at 4:35pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Both the polygraph and the voice stress analyzer depend on the same basic deception: duping the examinee into believing that he has been caught in a lie. The examinee who knows the truth about these bogus tests is unlikely to make any admission to a polygraph/voice stress operator that he wouldn't make to an interrogator not using these interrogational props. There is a clear distrinction between the polygraph and voice stress analysis. The polygraph records universal physiology; the tracings of which are in ALL human beings (other mammals too). Differences in language and culture are easily overcome with either a native speaker or translator. When done properly and to tried and true formats, results have reached levels of statistical significance depending on the application used for. The supposed voice stress analyzer has no ability to account for cross cultural deviation is linguistic patterns, and the presence or absence of frequency modulation (Their resting premise) can NOT be shown to have coralation to Truth or Deception. The school is four days long. I NOTED that the author mentioned that the polygraph is further being used to monitor those convicted of Domestic Violence which is sure to catch on in other jurisdictions with repeat offenders. Further, I believe that low level drug dealers may be next as we use this valued tool as a real knight in the war on drugs.


	IP Logged

Pages: 1

Add Poll

Send Topic

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

The Polygraph Paradox

Name:
E-mail:
Your Verification Code is:	Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Verification Code:
Preview

Message Icon:

Subject:

Message:
You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.

Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:

Text size: pt

More Smilies

View All Smilies

Collapse/Expand additional features

Attachments More Attachments

Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB

Attachment 1:

Attachment 2:

Attachment 3:

Attachment 4:

Attachment 5:

Attachment 6:

Attachment 7:

Attachment 8:

Attachment 9:

Attachment 10:

Disable UBBC and Smilies:

Check this if you wish to disable parsing of ubbc tags and smilies.