First of all the nom de plume is Sancho NOT "Snacho" or are you name calling trying to earn yourself a nastygram from the administrator. 

WJ wrote on Jan 8^th, 2008 at 2:31pm:


Before I respond, to what I see as your silly question "what other tests have an error rate?, let me attempt to explain to you that the error rate in pre employment written tests does not lie in whether or not 2+2 =4. 

The error/accuracy rate lies in the ability of a question or question set to determine what the test is designed to resolve. Or in other words, How well ones ability to accurately answer the question,( "what is 2+2?) determines their ability to be an FBI agent. I guess one could conceivably argue that knowing the answer to "What are 2+2" doesn't have, by itself any arguable ability to determine someone’s overall qualifications as an agent. Although, if you failed that question, the FBI might justifiably determine that you lacked the necessary math skills to perform the parts of the job that required math skills. 

That is why they put all those different questions on the test. It s not really to see whether or not you get the correct answer to any particular question, but whether or not you have answered a sufficient number of questions correctly to convince them that you have the ability to learn to perform the tasks required of an agent. If this test was absolutely accurate in its ability to weed those people out then no one would ever fail the academy for academic reasons. 

Those academic washouts help establish that their written test does in fact have an error rate. Unless you scored 100% on your written test you encountered another error rate, your own. Perhaps the FBI will accept a 30% applicant error rate on its written test, I don’t know I’m just guessing, but for the sake of our discussion that would mean if your accuracy was 70% YOU PASSED.Does that mean that someone who scored a 60% would not make a good agent? No it just means they failed the standard and got eliminated. Somewhere during the application process you may encounter the Minnesota Multi-phasic Personality Inventory or MMPI. I really don’t have a citation but I recall reading somewhere that this test may have an error rate as high as 40% in detecting clinical depression, but it is still used by many Law Enforcement Agencies and I presume that includes Federal Agencies in determining psychological fitness for service. No one is in a better position to be aware of whatever failure rate exists in polygraph and how that rate may be quantified. Error rates are made of  false positives (honest people called deceptive) and false negatives (dishonest people called truthful) The Federal government has made a conscious informed decision that at the risk of letting a few honorable people fail the process they will continue to use the process to weed out all of the dishonorable people they can. That is their right. Your right is not to apply if you don’t like the way they exercise their rights. You do not have any right to act in a dishonorable fashion or cheat or lie during any part of the process in which they evaluate your suitability, your honesty, or your integrity, by whatever method they choose to employ that are within the law. 

Response to “Name another type of test that is used by LE that has error rates.” 
Polygraph
DNA
Hair Analysis
Latent Fingerprint comparison
Blood Alcohol Analysis (Breath)
Blood Alcohol Analysis (Blood)
Handwriting Comparison
Statement Analysis
Determination of speed from skid marks
Determination of speed from yaw marks
Determination of speed from deformation of metal
Presence of blood
Presence of human blood
Marijuana field test
Marijuana Lab test
Heroin Field test
Heroin Lab Test
as a matter of fact to save time all presumptive tests for drugs whether in the field or lab
Urinalysis
Ink analysis
Identification of trace evidence
Foot Print Comparison
Puzzle fit analysis
Ballistics 
NEED I GO ON???  Didn’t you talk about error rates in college? Chemistry?,  Physics?, Biology? Any science at all?

BTW  You said that you used to be a military officer. What is the error rate of the impact location of a 105mm howitzer? If there were not error rate, all of the shells would hit the exact same spot unless the settings were changed. 

I realize this answer is probably too long because I don’t think you are looking for answers. I think you are looking for argument
Sancho Panza

Regarding the 2+2=4 test.  The problem would occur with the graders themselves.  If the graders were so stupid or negligent so as not to score this as a correct answer, then their would be a very easy appeal process.  Such is not the case with a "failed" polygraph based on examiner (grader) error.  The fault isn't with the question, (for example, have you ever stolen from an employer?) but instead, how the answer, (squiggly lines on a chart) are graded.

Sancho,
You are trying to put the subjective "test" of a polygraph in the same column as DNA testing and many other tests which you wrote (more smoke and mirrors).  Polygraph accuracy does not even compare to the accuracy of a sold scientifically proven test like DNA and genetic testing.  For example, DNA testing is 99.999% accurate or it is correct, at a minimum of 99,999 times out of 100,000.  The POLYGRAPH DOES NOT COME ANYWHERE NEAR THIS WITH REGARDS TO ACCURACY.  You should be embarrassed when trying to compare your little 10 week course to the education and skill these medical professionals need to understand and administer genetic or DNA testing.   

Also, you are trying to Divert, Distort and Distract from my intent with regards to my original question.  What other type of tests, that have the lack of accuracy like the polygraph, do LEO use to select new members of LE?

SanchoPanza wrote on Jan 8^th, 2008 at 12:05pm:


How is a person who answers each question truthfully and without withholding any information manufacturing false responses?

There is no verifiable way of determining what someone was thinking, and it is ridiculous to administer a test that includes instruction on what you are and are not allowed to think of after answering each question.

If a test subject answers all questions honestly, and does not withhold any information, how is he behaving unethically if he does long division or recites poetry in his head?

SanchoPanza wrote on Jan 9^th, 2008 at 10:36am:


I am curious as to why you feel you can expect an answer from me when you refuse to answer my reasonable and straightforward question.  In the interests of discussion, though, I will attempt to do so.

The question I will attempt to answer is the bold print in the above quote.  I am not inclined to go through all of CMcPhee’s prior posts to determine exactly what is “his description of what he says he has read, what he has practiced, and what he has said he is trying to conceal.”

If he plans on answering all questions truthfully, and does not withhold any information, I don’t know what else can be ethically, reasonably, or logically required of him.  If that is his intent then he should of course answer the examiner by truthfully saying that he is not going to try to control, alter, or interfere with the results.  I don’t even know how you could claim he is tampering with the testing process if he answers all the questions truthfully and does not withhold any information.  He is doing everything that is ethically and reasonably required of a person who is taking a test that is purportedly able to detect deception.

If, on the other hand, he intends to lie on his answers and then use mental or physical countermeasures in order to attempt to pass, then I would certainly agree that he is attempting to interfere with the test and should tell the examiner what he intends.  Of course, I think if he is planning to lie he should simply decline to take the polygraph altogether and look for another line of work.

To set the record straight, the minor things I discussed..I plan on disclosing. At first I said something general about voyeurism...then later explained it once the angel polygraphers started calling me the devil. At this point we should assume we are talking about telling the truth and using countermeasures.

SanchoPanza wrote on Jan 9^th, 2008 at 12:29pm:

The bold text above strikes me as utterly ridiculous.  My thoughts are my own.  What other people are thinking is completely unverifiable, yet you obviously believe that the thoughts of test subjects are an aspect of the polygraph exam that can and should be controlled by a polygraph examiner.  There is simply no verifiable way of doing that, as you well know.


SanchoPanza wrote on Jan 9^th, 2008 at 12:29pm:


I’m not searching for a “loohole" or a “loophole.”

If I take a polygraph test and the examiner tells me to be honest, and not to clench muscles or breathe incorrectly or step on a tack or bite my tongue, I’ll gladly do all those things.  However, there is simply no logical pathway to thought control and it is completely untenable in practice.

If the examiner tells me what to think about, i.e., to think about the question and the answer I just gave, isn’t that essentially telling me to produce an artificial reaction?  If you ask me if I am 100 years old and I truthfully tell you that I’m not, why on earth would I continue to think about my answer?  If I am asked about stealing or drug use or driving drunk and I answer honestly, why should I continue to think about my answer?  Because my answers are truthful it’s as uncomplicated as answering any other objective question.  If I’m asked what state I live in and I answer, “Connecticut”, why would I continue to ponder the question or the answer?  If I am told that to do anything else is somehow unethical that is absolutely ridiculous.  I’ve answered honestly and there’s no need to give it another thought, so why would I?  Yet according to your stated logic, I’d be behaving unethically by thinking about something else.  That makes no sense whatsoever.


I am fairly confident that neither you nor any other polygraph supporters truly have a problem with a truthful person’s thoughts, for exactly the reason I just stated.  A truthful person will answer and that will be it – there will be little reason for them to dwell on their answer or replay the question in their head because once they answered truthfully they are done.  I don’t see how anyone could disagree with that.

I believe that you, justifiably so, have a problem with someone who lies on the polygraph and then tries to calm themselves by thinking of other things.  The real problem, ironically, is that neither the examiners nor the polygraph are able to determine who the truthful subjects are and who the liars are.