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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Calling all polygraphers (Read 19950 times)
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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #45 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 3:25pm
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Sergeant,  Neither one of us should appear naive here.  You keep talking about letting ones innocent mind wander to where ever it will and that is not the topic under discussion. Let your mind wander all it wants and that isn't  using countermeasures but the minute you attempt to direct your thought process in in any way in order to manufacture or supress a response to a question on a polygraph it becomes a countermeasure. If you engage in countermeasures you are acting in a dishonest and unethical manner whether or not you are caught. You also place yourself squarely in the group Law Enforcement appears to want to exclude from its ranks.

Remember ethics and morals are what govern our behavior especially when no one can see us.

Sancho Panza
  

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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #46 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 3:46pm
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SanchoPanza wrote on Jan 9th, 2008 at 12:29pm:
Attempting to purposely alter the results of the examination is dishonest and unethical.


And, a polygrapher lying to the examinee isn't?  The mere fact that you are hooked up to a machine that is called a lie detector is dishonest on it's face, because the machine cannot detect lies.

In fact, the last time I discussed the issue face to face with a polygrapher, he admitted that he cannot tell if a person is lying.

If a polygraph was actually capable of detecting lies, then a one question test would be valid, such as:  "Did you kill John Doe?"

A yes or no answer, and the poly is over, and spits out the results.  Instead, the examiner first attempts to convince the examinee that the machine is a "lie detector" then falsely "tests" the examinee in a stim test, then presumes that the examinee is telling little white lies during the test on the control questions, but those are not relevant, and then on the relevant questions, the whole truth (or deception) is revealed.  All of  which can be altered if the examinee squeezes his butt muscles, does math in his head, bites his tongue or steps on a tack.

All this is done under the justification that "Well, no test is perfect".  I submit a polygraph examination is not even a test, because there is no objective way to pass.  One must receive a favorable "opinion" that he or she is being truthful or deceptive.  One cannot "pass" an opinion.

Sheesh... The poly is a joke and a fraud.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #47 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 3:51pm
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Sergeant, On a slightly different subject but still pertaining to polygraph, I have been doing some reading on pre-employment screening tests for law enforcement. It appears that after failing your first test because of drugs, you should have been given a specific test on the subject of drugs before being disqualified. When you failed your second test due to fighting/assaults you should have been given a specific test on that subject before being disqualified. When you failed your third test due to theft issues, you should have been given a specific test regarding theft before being disqualified. If these tests occurred what were there results?  If they did not occur you might have a legitimate cause for criticism based on the polygraphers not being thorough.

We've discussed screening exams before, and we've discussed the higher error rates that exist in screening exams. Specifically we have discussed that if you score positive on a TB skin test, they don't start treating you for TB they give you another test to confirm the results of the screening exam. It would appear that this is also the proper protocol for pre-employment polygraph.

Just thought I would share that with you

Sancho Panza
  

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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #48 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 3:52pm
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Nopoly  Once again my response to you is ...
  

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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #49 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 3:57pm
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Mr. Mashke,  Are there any published scientific independant peer reviewed studies that prove that any type of polygraph countermeasure can make a guilty examinee appear innocent or assist an innocent examinee who is having difficulty, pass the exam?

A simple yes or no would certainly suffice if you are busy, but if the answer is yes could you direct me to where I can read it?

Sancho Panza
  

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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #50 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:00pm
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Sancho's last response to nopoly is very telling indeed...
  
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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #51 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:26pm
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chrismcphee33 wrote on Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:00pm:
Sancho's last response to nopoly is very telling indeed...


To keep this response to your comments on topic, it is indeed telling that the polygraph supporters here cannot (or will not) answer straight forward questions honestly, but instead choose to rant and rave about anyone who might want to ensure the success on this arbitrary and capricious procedure commonly called a "lie detector test".

If one goes through my posts, (not suggesting this, but just commenting generally) one will see that typtically the straight forward questions I ask are ignored, or if not ignored, are not answered directly, but emotionally and off-topic.  Or, in the extreme, they do the equivalent of stamping their feet, put their fingers in their ears and say, "I don't HEAR you."  All very childish, in my opinion.

For the record, am pretty much done researching the polygraph, I believe I have a pretty good handle on what takes place during a polygraph examination.  I can now just post for the fun of it, and to help others who come to this site to gain information about the polygraph come to understand it's limitations and the falsity of it all.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #52 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:37pm
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chrismcphee33 wrote on Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:00pm:
Sancho's last response to nopoly is very telling indeed...


THANK YOU Chrismcphee33 I have decided that Nopolys wild unsubstantiated claims and the baiting nature of his posts are unworthy of further response. He appears to lack the ability for logical discussion and chooses instead to toss wild accusations that are without foundation.

You will probably notice, as I have,  that the polygraphers on this board have started ignoring ignoring him as well. You'll need to ask them why.  Surley if you have actually read his posts you don't think that is due to the intelligent nature of his commentary.

He has directly accused me of cowardice and brown nosing without  basis. I have never said anything to anyone on this board that I would not happliy say to their face.

If NoPoly4me had the intestinal fortitude to make that comment to my face he would also need the agility to duck.

So based on all of that I choose not to respond to his comments.
So What?

Sancho Panza
  

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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #53 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:43pm
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In my limited experience posting on this site, it has already become obvious that polygraphers like SanchoPanza tend to make general sweeping statements about morality instead of answering questions. While they are writing these long drawn out responses, which include YELLING and exclaiming! they don't seem to realize that their avoidance of the actual questions is the most telling thing of all about their own understanding of the validity of the polygraph interrogation process.
  
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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #54 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:52pm
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nopoly wrote:
And, a polygrapher lying to the examinee isn't?  The mere fact that you are hooked up to a machine that is called a lie detector is dishonest on it's face, because the machine cannot detect lies.

In fact, the last time I discussed the issue face to face with a polygrapher, he admitted that he cannot tell if a person is lying.

If a polygraph was actually capable of detecting lies, then a one question test would be valid, such as:  "Did you kill John Doe?"

A yes or no answer, and the poly is over, and spits out the results.  Instead, the examiner first attempts to convince the examinee that the machine is a "lie detector" then falsely "tests" the examinee in a stim test, then presumes that the examinee is telling little white lies during the test on the control questions, but those are not relevant, and then on the relevant questions, the whole truth (or deception) is revealed.  All of  which can be altered if the examinee squeezes his butt muscles, does math in his head, bites his tongue or steps on a tack.

All this is done under the justification that "Well, no test is perfect".  I submit a polygraph examination is not even a test, because there is no objective way to pass.  One must receive a favorable "opinion" that he or she is being truthful or deceptive.  One cannot "pass" an opinion.


Sancho:
What part of nopoly's post are the wild and unsubstantiated claims? Could you also tell me which parts are of baiting nature?

  
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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #55 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 5:08pm
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Chrismcphee33   Your assumption that I am a polygrapher is based on what?

I have considerably more evidence that you are and exhibitionist and voyeur than you have that I am a polygrapher.

You just can't seem to acknowledge the possibility that intellectually curious individuals can research polygraph without eventually worshipping at the George Mashcke antipolygraph shrine.

You criticize statements that promote honesty truth and integrity when you came to this forum attempting to learn how to avoid being honest and truthful about your admitted embarrassing sexual behavior in your upcoming polygraph test.

The vast majority of your questions attempt to establish an avenue of credibilty that you can use to justify your intended attempt to alter the results of that test.

You have my answer to that question. There is no moral and ethical justification for using countermeasures of any kind.
Asking the quesion over and over changing the words of the questions without changing the substance of the question is unlikely to elicit an different response.

The use of different kinds of emphasis like the one you call yelling (which seems odd to me considering this board doesn't use sound)is just an attempt at emphasising that "hey you've heard this answer before" or to call attention to a particular point. Your repeated asking of the same questions over and over after you have received responses is just an indication you refuse to read the response or that you are refusing to acknowledge a response because it doesn't tell you what you want to hear.

Sancho Panza
  

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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #56 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 5:25pm
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chrismcphee33 wrote on Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:52pm:
nopoly wrote:
And, a polygrapher lying to the examinee isn't?  The mere fact that you are hooked up to a machine that is called a lie detector is dishonest on it's face, because the machine cannot detect lies.

In fact, the last time I discussed the issue face to face with a polygrapher, he admitted that he cannot tell if a person is lying.

If a polygraph was actually capable of detecting lies, then a one question test would be valid, such as:  "Did you kill John Doe?"

A yes or no answer, and the poly is over, and spits out the results.  Instead, the examiner first attempts to convince the examinee that the machine is a "lie detector" then falsely "tests" the examinee in a stim test, then presumes that the examinee is telling little white lies during the test on the control questions, but those are not relevant, and then on the relevant questions, the whole truth (or deception) is revealed.  All of  which can be altered if the examinee squeezes his butt muscles, does math in his head, bites his tongue or steps on a tack.

All this is done under the justification that "Well, no test is perfect".  I submit a polygraph examination is not even a test, because there is no objective way to pass.  One must receive a favorable "opinion" that he or she is being truthful or deceptive.  One cannot "pass" an opinion.


Sancho:
What part of nopoly's post are the wild and unsubstantiated claims? Could you also tell me which parts are of baiting nature?


First I was referring to his posts in general not the post you referenced although I wouldn’t necessarily exclude it.

If I responded to the above, wouldn't that really be responding to Nopoly?  Go back and read the part where I clearly stated "I have decided that Nopoly’s wild unsubstantiated claims and the baiting nature of his posts are unworthy of further response."  Do I need to resort to capital letters and yellow highlights to get you to read that? If there is some part of that statement you are unable to comprehend, please describe it as best you can and I will try to explain even though the language was sufficiently plain that further explanation would probably make someone accuse me of condescension.

The idea that simply regurgitating his post somehow makes it yours is just a bit silly. Someone might  possibly even call it plagiaristic.   Roll Eyes

Sancho Panza
  

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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #57 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 5:27pm
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SanchoPanza wrote on Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:37pm:
He has directly accused me of cowardice and brown nosing without  basis. I have never said anything to anyone on this board that I would not happliy say to their face.

If NoPoly4me had the intestinal fortitude to make that comment to my face he would also need the agility to duck.
Sancho Panza


NOW it's getting FUN!

I presume you are referring to the following comment:

"You probably survived by avoiding the hot calls, (like you avoid my posts) and getting into internal affairs as soon as you could brown nose enough brass."

Well, of course the above is not a direct accusation as you state, but instead couched as an opinion, which frankly was beneath my dignity and not worthy of a person with my intellectual prowess.  I guess I got caught up in the moment, and for that I apologize.  I find it curious and instructive though, that you actually don't deny it's truthfulness, but instead misdirect by stating that I directly accused you of avoiding hot calls and brown nosing your way into internal affairs.  No, Sancho, I was just stating my opnion based on my 30 years of active duty police work, (I still carry a badge, BTW). You see,  I have seen many people get to the top, (or at least a cushy ROAD* job such as internal affairs) on the backs of good cops and their carreers.

And, I have said nothing here that I wouldn't say to your face, or anyone elses face.  I would welcome a personal meeting with anyone here.  Perhaps Dr. Phil or Maury Povich could arrange it, it could be a very exhilerating experience for all, and extremely entertaining.

* ROAD means "Retired On Active Duty" for the non-police readers.

Gotta go now, I have a one o'clock court appearance.

  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #58 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 5:47pm
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I forgot something in my previous post about polygraphers, like Sancho, not answering questions directly. I meant to also include that he/she also tends to revert back to prvious posts (ie: I have considerably more evidence that you are and exhibitionist and voyeur than you have that I am a polygrapher. ). You can repeat that 100 times, I have no issues with it because I have explained in more detail what I meant...if you really cared to know.  Read over your previous post and it will; be very obvious just how much you avoid the actual questions. You act like you don't want to justify such questions with a response, yet you will respond to my statements about you yelling (ie. The use of different kinds of emphasis like the one you call yelling (which seems odd to me considering this board doesn't use sound).

You made a statement about nopoly making wild and unsubstantiated claims...I am just asking which of the claims he made, which I pasted in my previous post, are wild and unsubstantiated?

  
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Re: Calling all polygraphers
Reply #59 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 6:04pm
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nopoly4me

WOW!!!

Many thanks for putting your life on the line for so many years in these dangerous times.

Good job
  
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