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Underjustice
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Who Lying
Dec 9th, 2007 at 7:20pm
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I have recently took two poly in less than 30 days and was told I failed them both.  The first poly I failed only one question out of three.  However, I was told because I failed that one question that means I was lying about the other two but I didn't show any lying on those two.
I knew that I haven't violated any conditions of my parole.  I couldn't understand why this one question which was so broad can overshadow the the other two question which was specific to what I am on parole for.
The second poly I failed on the same broad question but I also was told I show same strong reaction this time on the other two questions which I passed on the the first poly.  Again, I knew by a shadow of doubt I have not violated any condition of my parole concerning any of the three questions.  My question than who lying?
  
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Donna.Taylor
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #1 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 8:07pm
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Underjustice wrote on Dec 9th, 2007 at 7:20pm:
I have recently took two poly in less than 30 days and was told I failed them both.  The first poly I failed only one question out of three.  However, I was told because I failed that one question that means I was lying about the other two but I didn't show any lying on those two.
I knew that I haven't violated any conditions of my parole.  I couldn't understand why this one question which was so broad can overshadow the the other two question which was specific to what I am on parole for.
The second poly I failed on the same broad question but I also was told I show same strong reaction this time on the other two questions which I passed on the the first poly.  Again, I knew by a shadow of doubt I have not violated any condition of my parole concerning any of the three questions.  My question than who lying?



You were proabably given a multiple issue maintenance or sexual history examination.  If you are deceptive to one the examiner cannot call you truthful to others.

The bigger question is - does your parole stipulations prohibit you from using the internet?  My guess is 'yes' and you are in violation by being on this site.  So do you want to tell the audience here what question you failed?
  
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Underjustice
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #2 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 8:56pm
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First, my parole stipulations does not prohibit me from using the internet. 

Second, I would love to inform the audience what question I failed; however, as antipolygraph.org has informed the audience that "polygrahs operators also read the discussions on this message board". Because I am in hot-waters now because of my stand with those who have my fate in their hands to play with, I rather not post too much detail where I would be idenfitied and get in worser hot-waters because of my stand on I know that I have not committed any of the questions which I suppose to have failed. 

Last, you still didn't answer my question who is lying when I know the same questions can not give differ answers.
  
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nomegusto
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #3 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 9:10pm
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Underjustice:
Hate to say this. But reading your first post once, then again the second post afterwards would leave me to believe your lying. However, since I'm not interviewing, or questioning you. I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Just for your information Under, I'm not a polygrapher. I'm an leo, with Statement analyzation, and I/I qualifications. I'm in support of various poly procedures, including post conviction cases. I've got personal reasons for my beliefs.
Your first post spoke alot about your situation. However it's not a statement, but certain words would leave a leo to wonder.
I wish you luck. However normally a person in your situation is prohibited. Your on here to figure out a way to beat the polygraph for your own personal reason. Bueno, that's your decision.
As always, I'll wish you luck. Face your demons, and the consequences of your actions... STAY AWAY FROM LITTLE KIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Angry
Sorry George, but I find this disgusting....

  

semper paratus
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Donna.Taylor
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #4 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 9:24pm
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Sorry, but I am not going to help a sex offender on the anit-polygraph web site.  BTW I am a polygraph examiner certified in sex offender testing (PCSOT). 

If you don't have a 'no internet' clause in your parole stipulations - you should have!  My bets are you should not be on any sexually explicit web sites or chat rooms!  It would be in your  best interest to  be discussing your questions with your PO or therapist.
  
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Donna.Taylor
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #5 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 9:26pm
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nomegusto wrote on Dec 9th, 2007 at 9:10pm:
Sorry George, but I find this disgusting....



Ditto
  
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EJohnson
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #6 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 9:34pm
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The only exceptions which allow paroled sex offenders to visit the internet (in every state I am aware of) are when offenders are in college and they are at the campus computer banks. Unless of course the offender is a minor, living with family who are required to password protect their computers. The restrictions are far more justified by the habitual use of pornography and sexual chat rooms by offenders who are being reconditioned to not view human beings as mere objects for pleasure----the classic trait of errant thinking, narcissistic individuals.  Sad
« Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2007 at 9:51pm by EJohnson »  

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EJohnson
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #7 - Dec 9th, 2007 at 9:48pm
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The restrictions are far more justified by the habitual use of pornography and sexual chat rooms by offenders



Of course, the absolute worse case senario is that an offender falls in the 4-6% category of actually sexually reoffending after their conviction. I hope and pray that you aren't in that hopeless category.

Either way, I am convinced that no matter what state in which you live, you aren't even supposed to have a cell phone with internet access, much less belonging to a chat room or web forum------which a forum such as this presents with underaged minors as members ("Colorado"). Your plight of failing a multi-issue test is unfortunate on many levels, but your apparent  lack of recognition of your parole rules places you at a level of risk that you yourself might deny, but data is data.


I can't help but wonder what other kinds of websites you have been surfing. Perhaps it is time for a Monitoring test (recent sex crimes instead of Maintenance/parole stip test), and a sweep of your machine, just for safety reasons. Cry

« Last Edit: Dec 9th, 2007 at 10:51pm by EJohnson »  

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George W. Maschke
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #8 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 2:35am
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Underjustice wrote on Dec 9th, 2007 at 7:20pm:
I have recently took two poly in less than 30 days and was told I failed them both.  The first poly I failed only one question out of three.  However, I was told because I failed that one question that means I was lying about the other two but I didn't show any lying on those two.
I knew that I haven't violated any conditions of my parole.  I couldn't understand why this one question which was so broad can overshadow the the other two question which was specific to what I am on parole for.
The second poly I failed on the same broad question but I also was told I show same strong reaction this time on the other two questions which I passed on the the first poly.  Again, I knew by a shadow of doubt I have not violated any condition of my parole concerning any of the three questions.  My question than who lying?


Underjustice,

Polygraphers are lying when they claim to be able to detect deception. Polygraph "testing" is a pseudoscientific fraud that depends on the polygrapher lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested."  False positives are common, and it is not unusual or surprising that a person might "fail" different truthfully-answered questions when the procedure is repeated.

Donna, Eric, (and all polygraphers who read these forums),

The notion that those subjected to polygraph screening can be kept ignorant of the truth about polygraphy is misplaced. If polygraphy were truly a valid and robust technique for the detection of deception, it wouldn't matter what those who are subjected to it know about it, and its being discussed in a public forum should be of no concern.

If you truly had confidence in polygraphy, you should have felt no need to embarrass yourselves -- and your "profession" -- with your recent trolling campaign on these forums.
  

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EJohnson
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #9 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 4:39am
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Polygraphers are lying when they claim to be able to detect deception. Polygraph "testing" is a pseudoscientific fraud that depends on the polygrapher lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested."  False positives are common, and it is not unusual or surprising that a person might "fail" different truthfully-answered questions when the procedure is repeated.

Repeating this bunk doesn't make it true Mr. M. Your abstract knowledge of polygraph puts you in the same position as a  blind man describing an elephant by holding his trunk. What is clearly lacking in robustness is your knowledge and description of polygraph.

Quote:
The notion that those subjected to polygraph screening can be kept ignorant of the truth about polygraphy is misplaced. If polygraphy were truly a valid and robust technique for the detection of deception, it wouldn't matter what those who are subjected to it know about it, and its being discussed in a public forum should be of no concern.

If knowledge of polygraph operations were required to be such a secret, than perhaps you can explain why polygraph examiners themselves are polygraphed on a regular basis-----and such examinee polygraphers know far more than you about all things relating to polygraph. Don't bother mentioning Mr. Sullivan's run-in with the polygraph, as that was a specific issue test. If countermeasures are so undetectable, shouldn't the nation's leading federal polygraph examiner be using them. Your engine is smoking George, and you know it.
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If you truly had confidence in polygraphy, you should have felt no need to embarrass yourselves -- and your "profession" -- with your recent trolling campaign on these forums.

I never was embarrassed over my vested interest that ex-pats and rabble-rousers do not attempt to obstruct justice or endanger the lives of kids (my kids especially) by advocating the disengagement from therapeutic treatment and manipulation of supervising officers of and by dangerous sexual predators. I am very confident that your site attracts many child molesters and rapists--and I can safely assume that you'd rather the site's visitors be more heavily composed of "fawns to be fed to the polygraph monster"rather than men who have had repeated sex with children, even sex with infants mind you-----incidentally I have much anecdotal proof of your visitor makeup, as do many colleagues. If one offender rethinks manipulating his supervisors by not disclosing challenges of addiction or other specific areas that a simple polygraph test cannot reveal great details of, than it is worth my time. I have said to you as palerider, and I will say it to you as me.....it really boils down to this site advocating cheating on tests and keeping quiet because you are convinced that the test is invalid. Therefore, you knowingly advocate that sex offenders cheat on their tests; tests that are meant to provide help along with other investigative means to keep kids safe. You help child molesters manipulate people. This is not inductive, but concrete reasoning.
« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2007 at 5:09am by EJohnson »  

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Donna.Taylor
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #10 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 5:27am
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George, I polygraph sex offenders on probation / parole daily and it is not to line my pocket as one of your posters mentioned earlier.  I do it for the safety of our children.  If and that is a big IF the SO’s are being honest in therapy and in compliance with their parole stipulations they would not be here.  Everyone who lives in America has to deal with SO’s crimes; however, when sex offenders come to your website in attempts to learn how to beat the polygraph that is a whole different issue.  As stated many times over, go ahead and teach them your tricks – and if you do, you are no better.  The guilty will fail and the unfortunate fact is the honest will probably fail as well.   I thought you said you don’t help sex offenders. 

Also, you list me as a troll because I posted on this forum under an alias….as does at least 98% of your population.  Plus you encourage everyone on AP to remain anonymous.  So, George, get off the high horse and stop calling me names (remember sticks and stones….)   How many people have you contacted to make comments on the Myth Buster show forum of ‘Beat the Polygraph’?  BTW, you forgot to list BUSTED behind that one.  I saw your name and Rhoades (apparently co-founder of AP that changed his listing to AKY_888)…a polygraph examiner and a bunch of alias making posts.  Are they trolls?  The examiner on Myth Busters (regardless of his ‘honorable’ Ph.D status) caught the deceptive and called the truthful as such – even with countermeasures!   3 out of 3 isn’t bad AND it was better than the MRI portion.

Studies have been listed on this site that when an innocent individual uses countermeasures it increases their chance of being called deceptive. 

Am I afraid of you? No.

Am I embarrassed for posting here? Hell no.

Am I irritated at your site? You bet.  Especially when you increase the chances of anyone’s failure (pre-employments and sex offenders) and you assist sexual predators who are trying to manipulate the system.

Is Polygraph 100% accurate? NO.  But as Eric just pointed out and others have time and time again, it is a phenomenal tool to assist the overwhelmed therapists and probation/parole officers manage high caseloads.

  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #11 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 5:45am
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Eric,

That polygraphy is pseudoscience is not just my opinion. It reflects the broad consensus of the scientific community. See Chapter 1 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for a thorough debunking.

That polygraphy depends on examiner deception is also not controversial. These deceptions are documented in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, with ample references to primary sources. Your fellow erstwhile troll, Dr. Lou Rovner, testified that the information in this book "is so thorough and complete it's just breathtaking how good and accurate the information is."

That polygraphers in agencies such as the CIA must themselves submit to polygraph screening tells us nothing about polygraph procedure or validity: it is merely a necessary charade.

Regarding the ethical considerations involved in the publication of information about polygraph countermeasures, see my Response to Paul M. Menges Regarding the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public.
  

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Re: Who Lying
Reply #12 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 7:38am
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Donna.Taylor wrote on Dec 10th, 2007 at 5:27am:
 George, I polygraph sex offenders on probation / parole daily and it is not to line my pocket as one of your posters mentioned earlier.  I do it for the safety of our children.  If and that is a big IF the SO’s are being honest in therapy and in compliance with their parole stipulations they would not be here.  Everyone who lives in America has to deal with SO’s crimes; however, when sex offenders come to your website in attempts to learn how to beat the polygraph that is a whole different issue.  As stated many times over, go ahead and teach them your tricks – and if you do, you are no better.  The guilty will fail and the unfortunate fact is the honest will probably fail as well.   I thought you said you don’t help sex offenders.


According to the study that you posted in support of, and that you referenced in your post,  TLBTLD does not help the guilty pass a polygraph, though it may cause truthful people to fail.  In the post quoted above you wrote, “The guilty will fail and the unfortunate fact is the honest will probably fail as well.”  

If you believe the results of the study, and you believe what you wrote yourself, how is this site helping sex offenders?  The worst George could be accused of doing, if you believe the study and your own words, is causing people to fail who have previously committed sex offenses but who now are being truthful during their polygraphs.  But that can’t be what is happening, since you also wrote, “If and that is a big IF the SO’s are being honest in therapy and in compliance with their parole stipulations they would not be here.”  It seems that sex offenders who are honest and truthful don’t wind up being polygraphed; only the liars are polygraphed, and the study you supported and your own words make it clear that liars who read TLBTLD don’t pass their polygraphs anyway.

Given all that, I’d appreciate it if you could explain exactly how this site helps sex offenders.



Donna.Taylor wrote on Dec 10th, 2007 at 5:27am:
 Also, you list me as a troll because I posted on this forum under an alias….as does at least 98% of your population.  


I believe George refers to you as a troll because you exhibited typical trolling behavior when you posted under your pseudonym “Wonder Woman.”  Trolling behavior has nothing to do with posting without using your real name.  As defined by Dictionary.com, a troll is someone who regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll."
I think any objective review of your behavior and that of your “peanut gallery” comrades would label your behavior as trolling.



Donna.Taylor wrote on Dec 10th, 2007 at 5:27am:
 Is Polygraph 100% accurate? NO.  But as Eric just pointed out and others have time and time again, it is a phenomenal tool to assist the overwhelmed therapists and probation/parole officers manage high caseloads.


Eric has also pointed out that he doesn’t know of a single polygraph examiner that would bet his or her mortgage on the accuracy of a polygraph test.  It is difficult to read a non-endorsement like that and not come to the conclusion that examiners will tout the accuracy of the polygraph when it is of no personal consequence, but back off when the outcome of their supposedly highly accurate exam might have serious personal consequences for themselves or their family.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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Underjustice
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #13 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 8:29am
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Your hateful towards SO is right, Nonegusto, to give me the benefit of doubt.  I am not "here to figure out a way to beat the polygraph for [my] personal reason."  I am here to tell about the hateful and deceitful situation some truthful SO are facing in their so-called treatment with polys.  Also, I have face my demons long ago and the consequences of my acation; however, it is this kind of hateful and deceiftful attitude which keep me away from little kids.

D. Taylor, you mind me of some of the "polygraphers cerfified in sex offender testing" in telling the truth "you are not here to help [me] pass this test, instead of, "I am here to help you pass the test and not here to see you fail."  As the polygrapher told me during my polys.  In other words, the polygrapher was actully saying the same thing you are saying.

EJohnson, you wold love to keep a SO off this kind of forum who does not visit pornography and sexual chat room, instead, is the SO first time chatting on anykind of forum to grivevance his experience to the deceitful polygrphers like the like of D.Taylor and you.   However, if this forum has minors chatting on here than I will be the first to leave with no returen whatsoever because I do not lack the recognition of my parole rules which I do not deny, but to deny me no kind of forum to grievance my injustice - "data is data".

George, you are right about polygraphs and polygraphers lying because I have not [fell] in the "4-6% category of actually sexually reoffending after [my] conviction."  As a matter of fact, I have been release for awhile.  However, the polygrapher's deception in trying to get me to admit to "actually sexually reoffending" when the polygraphers knew that the two question I did not show deception on was "stay away form little kids".  Therefore, I have not manipulated but have been manipulating beliving that I have done something when in fact it is being done to me.  As D. Taylor said, "unfortunate fact is the honest will probably fail as well... Is polygraph is 100% accurate? No...It is a phenomenal tool to assist the overwhelmed therapists and parole officers" to sent honest SO back to prison on a lie.

So George, keep telling the truth about those who are really actully deceiving some "honest " SO.      

Respectfully submitted
      Underjustice
  
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Re: Who Lying
Reply #14 - Dec 10th, 2007 at 11:51am
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Your best day Mr. Maschke, sex offenders agree with you regarding polygraph being unfair.  Indeed a proud day for you.
  
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