Eos:
I am a staunch supporter of our constitutional rights. In fact I spent 30 yrs defending these rights. 
(Please refer back to my post about how I supported the Miranda decision becasue of the abuse by cops in the past.)  However, there comes a time when  the safety of our country becomes more important than our rights. Common sense has to prevail. I won't go on about how I think Bush has the safety of our countyr  at hear  because you are  probably a liberal  who is anti Bush everything and I am a conservative Bush backer and we will never agree. I would rather have the Feds do  wtaps on suspected individuals who mean to do harm to us than see one of our cities become destroyed by some "dirty bomb" because we were concerned about some terrorist's constitutional rights.

Have a good day.

retcopper wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2006 at 5:36pm:


RetCopper,

I am neither conservative or liberal. I make my decisions on issues by what I perceive as moral, honest and correct for any given problem. GW Bush has nothing but the best interest of the country I am sure. Except he listens to his cabinet full of self important neophytes that have, since he was first elected given him bad info and advice on policies, Iraq, and homeland security. 
But you bring up a good point and you show it quite well in your message. That you are willing to give up some of your liberties for security. This is dangerous as it sets us down this police state road everytime we do this. The germans did this in 1932 when they elected Hitler because he promised them security, in return he expected complete loyalty by the population. If you do not see this correlation, then I suggest reading the "Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich". The similarities to today will scare you. Especially the part where Hitler was given the powers from the Enabling Act. He guaranteed security with the giving up of liberties.

Regards ... 

Eos:
Yo make some good points and I respect your opinions but the leader of some of the Middle East countries like Iran are sounding just like Hitler with their vitriolic remarks about "wiping Israel off the face of the earth".  The world didn't take Hitler seriously and look what happened. I did read the Rise and Fall many yrs ago but I will have to reread it again to refresh my memory. (Too many bad concussions over the yrs.)

Cesium:

I have read many books abuot Franklin and our founding fathers  but it is my opinon that you cannot take their words and thoughts  from that period and apply them to todays world.

Thanx to both of you for your remarks regarding history. I am a history buff and ehjoy the analogies. 

Have a good day. 

To all Concerned,

It looks like the Bush Administration lost its battle to keep its domestic spying without oversite going.
Here is the link to the article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16673270/

This is a definate win for privacy and the 4th Amendment. 

Text follows:

Independent body to monitor spying program

Court has already approved one surveillance request from government

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration has agreed to let a secret but independent panel of federal judges oversee the government’s controversial domestic spying program, the Justice Department said Wednesday.

In a letter to the leaders of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court will have final say in approving wiretaps placed on people with suspected terror links.

“Any electronic surveillance that was occurring as part of the Terrorist Surveillance Program will now be conducted subject to the approval of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court,” Gonzales wrote in the two-page letter to Sens. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., and Arlen Specter, R-Pa.

“Accordingly, under these circumstances, the President has determined not to reauthorize the Terrorist Surveillance Program when the current authorization expires,” the attorney general wrote.

The Bush administration secretly launched the surveillance program in 2001 to monitor international phone calls and e-mails to or from the United States involving people suspected by the government of having terrorist links.

The White House said it is satisfied with new guidelines the FISA court adopted on Jan. 10 to address administration officials’ concerns about national security.

“The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has put together its guidelines and its rules and those have met administration concerns about speed and agility when it comes to responding to bits of intelligence where we may to be able to save American lives,” White House press secretary Tony Snow said.

Snow said he could not explain why those concerns could not have been addressed before the program was started. He said the president will not reauthorize the present program because the new rules will serve as guideposts.

The secret panel of judges, known as the FISA court, was established in the late 1970s to review requests for warrants to conduct surveillance inside the United States. The Bush administration had resisted giving the court final approval over the Terrorist Surveillance Program, even when communications involved someone inside the country.

A federal judge in Detroit last August declared the program unconstitutional, saying it violates the rights to free speech and privacy and the separation of powers. In October, a three-judge panel of the Cincinnati-based appeals court ruled that the administration could keep the program in place while it appeals the Detroit decision.

Additionally, the Justice Department’s inspector general is investigating the agency’s use of information gathered in the spying program. In testimony last fall in front of the Senate panel, FBI Director Robert Mueller said he was not allowed to discuss classified details that could show whether it has curbed terrorist activity in the United States.

Congressional intelligence committees have already been briefed on the court’s orders, Gonzales said in his letter. It was sent to the committee the day before he is set to testify before the panel, which oversees the Justice Department.

--------

This is how it was suppose to be done !! 

Regards ....

The NSA's Project "Echelon" probably did the same kind of thing, and took place, I believe, under the CLINTON administration.  I wonder why the left leaning obermann didn't ask about that?  Even as a sidebar.  Selective journalism at it's best.   

TC

I said as a side bar, since they were talking about illegally collecting on US citizens.

From what I have read about Echelon (and I had nothing to do with it when I worked in the SIGINT community, and only know what I know from what I've read on the web)  the NSA would collect on UK citizens (which would be illegal for the NSA SIGINT counterpart in the UK ?GCHQ?), then share the info with the UK government.  GCHQ, in turn, spied on americans and shared the info with the NSA.  This so as to not violate USSID 18.  The net effect was as if the NSA had actually spied on Americans.

As for the specific targeting individuals (journalists, funeral directors, gay florists...etc).  Echelon may not have specifically targeted individuals, and was just a computer driven system of collection receivers...etc. as you said,  but who knows how analysts could have sifted through the data once collected by the system.  Via meta tags...etc.   Again, UK on US citizens, US on UK citizens, with the two working together.   

Do you think OBAMA will make any changes as to polygraph policy within the federal government?   That's the million dollar question.

My point is they can get around this stuff, and have for years.  Under all administrations going way back.  As for the Oberman piece, your average viewer (say my mom) would have come away thinking, "Gee, that GW spied on us!".  Which is probably the impression he wanted to make.   

You have to take what you see on TV with a grain of salt, whether from Oberman, O'reilly, hannity, whomever.

Now, as for the CIA's giving unsuspecting soldiers LSD.....just kidding.

TC

Here is the second part of Keith Olbermann's interview of Russ Tice, in which it is revealed that the NSA also collected credit card records of American citizens. Olbermann also speaks with New York Times reporter James Risen, who was the subject of government surveillance:



A text summary is available on RawStory.com.