Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored? (Read 31043 times)
Dippityshurff
Ex Member


Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #30 - Aug 23rd, 2006 at 1:09am
Print Post  
EosJupiter wrote on Aug 23rd, 2006 at 12:58am:
RetCopper,

Its a victory for the preservation of your Constitutional Rights. The process for doing this type of surveillance was designed to use the approval & protections of the FISA courts in order to get a warrant. Bush circumvented that protection and squashed the 4th Amendment under the guise of National Security and the war effort. Everytime we lose a protection of our rights we head further into the abyss of becoming a police state with no rights. Your a retired LEO, this should be readily apparent to you, that once a right is lost it is never returned.  Bush and this administration has consistantly shown it will circumvent personal protections for its own ends. I am more than willing to accept the threat without trashing the Bill Of Rights.

Regards



I am as well.  Though I think perhaps we are going overboard in treating non-citizens with the same safeguards as citizens,  I'm always wary when any right is eroded, even though that erosion may have a built-in sunset provision.  But tough times call for tough measures and I do wish there were a little less carping from the left.  Having said that, carping for the greater good is always welcome *LOL*
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
retcopper
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 192
Joined: Aug 31st, 2005
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #31 - Aug 23rd, 2006 at 5:36pm
Print Post  
Eos:
I am a staunch supporter of our constitutional rights. In fact I spent 30 yrs defending these rights.
(Please refer back to my post about how I supported the Miranda decision becasue of the abuse by cops in the past.)  However, there comes a time when  the safety of our country becomes more important than our rights. Common sense has to prevail. I won't go on about how I think Bush has the safety of our countyr  at hear  because you are  probably a liberal  who is anti Bush everything and I am a conservative Bush backer and we will never agree. I would rather have the Feds do  wtaps on suspected individuals who mean to do harm to us than see one of our cities become destroyed by some "dirty bomb" because we were concerned about some terrorist's constitutional rights.

Have a good day.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
underlyingtruth
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 123
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2006
Gender: Female
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #32 - Aug 23rd, 2006 at 6:02pm
Print Post  
retcopper wrote on Aug 23rd, 2006 at 5:36pm:
I would rather have the Feds do  wtaps on suspected individuals who mean to do harm to us than see one of our cities become destroyed by some "dirty bomb" because we were concerned about some terrorist's constitutional rights.


There are not very many bank robberies in Mexico.  That is because when someone tries hold up a bank, the guards start shooting everything that moves until the perpetrators are dead.  If you happen to be a customer or a worker, you better hit the floor and take cover because your life is inconsequential. They WILL get the perpetrators and anybody that gets in the way is just the cost of security.

I have no concern for a terrorist's constitutional rights, but I do have concern for individuals who are caught in the crossfire.

Does the end justify the means?

Also, wouldn’t the intelligent terrorists be using secure methods of communication that are nearly impossible to intercept?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #33 - Aug 24th, 2006 at 12:44am
Print Post  
retcopper wrote on Aug 23rd, 2006 at 5:36pm:
Eos:
I am a staunch supporter of our constitutional rights. In fact I spent 30 yrs defending these rights.
(Please refer back to my post about how I supported the Miranda decision becasue of the abuse by cops in the past.)  However, there comes a time when  the safety of our country becomes more important than our rights. Common sense has to prevail. I won't go on about how I think Bush has the safety of our countyr  at hear  because you are  probably a liberal  who is anti Bush everything and I am a conservative Bush backer and we will never agree. I would rather have the Feds do  wtaps on suspected individuals who mean to do harm to us than see one of our cities become destroyed by some "dirty bomb" because we were concerned about some terrorist's constitutional rights.

Have a good day.


RetCopper,

I am neither conservative or liberal. I make my decisions on issues by what I perceive as moral, honest and correct for any given problem. GW Bush has nothing but the best interest of the country I am sure. Except he listens to his cabinet full of self important neophytes that have, since he was first elected given him bad info and advice on policies, Iraq, and homeland security.
But you bring up a good point and you show it quite well in your message. That you are willing to give up some of your liberties for security. This is dangerous as it sets us down this police state road everytime we do this. The germans did this in 1932 when they elected Hitler because he promised them security, in return he expected complete loyalty by the population. If you do not see this correlation, then I suggest reading the "Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich". The similarities to today will scare you. Especially the part where Hitler was given the powers from the Enabling Act. He guaranteed security with the giving up of liberties.

Regards ...
  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cesium_133
Senior User
***
Offline


Nulla veritas in se qui
dicunt "Animum tuum lego"

Posts: 91
Location: USA
Joined: Jan 8th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #34 - Aug 24th, 2006 at 8:16am
Print Post  
The polygraph, as a work of fiction, creates fictional security.  So does the concept of GSR monitors ar airports, VSA, and all else in the truth-telling pseudosciences.

Any sort of wiretap sans warrant, searching in houses without warrant (like by heat detection), and things of that nature erode liberty and security.  And as someone said once:

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security."

That was Ben Franklin...

Hitler promised security, which the Jews never got to enjoy because he used his security crap to exterminate them.  His nation was wiped out in 12 years.  And he took liberty, also...
  

I think polygraphers escaped among the evils of Pandora's box, which might have been an old analog polygraph... only God can tell whether you're lying or not, and He's got other things on His plate...
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
retcopper
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 192
Joined: Aug 31st, 2005
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #35 - Aug 24th, 2006 at 4:09pm
Print Post  
Eos:
Yo make some good points and I respect your opinions but the leader of some of the Middle East countries like Iran are sounding just like Hitler with their vitriolic remarks about "wiping Israel off the face of the earth".  The world didn't take Hitler seriously and look what happened. I did read the Rise and Fall many yrs ago but I will have to reread it again to refresh my memory. (Too many bad concussions over the yrs.)

Cesium:

I have read many books abuot Franklin and our founding fathers  but it is my opinon that you cannot take their words and thoughts  from that period and apply them to todays world.

Thanx to both of you for your remarks regarding history. I am a history buff and ehjoy the analogies.

Have a good day.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #36 - Aug 25th, 2006 at 7:36am
Print Post  
retcopper wrote on Aug 24th, 2006 at 4:09pm:
Eos:
Yo make some good points and I respect your opinions but the leader of some of the Middle East countries like Iran are sounding just like Hitler with their vitriolic remarks about "wiping Israel off the face of the earth".  The world didn't take Hitler seriously and look what happened. I did read the Rise and Fall many yrs ago but I will have to reread it again to refresh my memory. (Too many bad concussions over the yrs.)


Retcopper,

I have no doubt that those despotic regimes will never have our best intentions, but most tolerate us as long as the $$$ keeps coming from us buying their oil.  I don't have a problem with us cleanng house either. Iran & Syria I think also need a good butt kicking. But that fight is for a later time. But we still need to watch our own government to make sure that they follow the laws too. Hence why the judge shut the NSA program down. If it had been done right with the warrants and FISA court, this whole discussion would be mute. I played football and lacrosse, and I fully understand concussions and the follow on issues that come from them.

Regards ....
  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #37 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 5:06am
Print Post  
To all Concerned,

It looks like the Bush Administration lost its battle to keep its domestic spying without oversite going.
Here is the link to the article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16673270/

This is a definate win for privacy and the 4th Amendment.

Text follows:

Independent body to monitor spying program

Court has already approved one surveillance request from government

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration has agreed to let a secret but independent panel of federal judges oversee the government’s controversial domestic spying program, the Justice Department said Wednesday.

In a letter to the leaders of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court will have final say in approving wiretaps placed on people with suspected terror links.

“Any electronic surveillance that was occurring as part of the Terrorist Surveillance Program will now be conducted subject to the approval of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court,” Gonzales wrote in the two-page letter to Sens. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., and Arlen Specter, R-Pa.

“Accordingly, under these circumstances, the President has determined not to reauthorize the Terrorist Surveillance Program when the current authorization expires,” the attorney general wrote.

The Bush administration secretly launched the surveillance program in 2001 to monitor international phone calls and e-mails to or from the United States involving people suspected by the government of having terrorist links.

The White House said it is satisfied with new guidelines the FISA court adopted on Jan. 10 to address administration officials’ concerns about national security.

“The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has put together its guidelines and its rules and those have met administration concerns about speed and agility when it comes to responding to bits of intelligence where we may to be able to save American lives,” White House press secretary Tony Snow said.

Snow said he could not explain why those concerns could not have been addressed before the program was started. He said the president will not reauthorize the present program because the new rules will serve as guideposts.

The secret panel of judges, known as the FISA court, was established in the late 1970s to review requests for warrants to conduct surveillance inside the United States. The Bush administration had resisted giving the court final approval over the Terrorist Surveillance Program, even when communications involved someone inside the country.

A federal judge in Detroit last August declared the program unconstitutional, saying it violates the rights to free speech and privacy and the separation of powers. In October, a three-judge panel of the Cincinnati-based appeals court ruled that the administration could keep the program in place while it appeals the Detroit decision.

Additionally, the Justice Department’s inspector general is investigating the agency’s use of information gathered in the spying program. In testimony last fall in front of the Senate panel, FBI Director Robert Mueller said he was not allowed to discuss classified details that could show whether it has curbed terrorist activity in the United States.

Congressional intelligence committees have already been briefed on the court’s orders, Gonzales said in his letter. It was sent to the committee the day before he is set to testify before the panel, which oversees the Justice Department.

--------

This is how it was suppose to be done !!

Regards ....
« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2007 at 6:33am by EosJupiter »  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6006
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #38 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 7:22am
Print Post  
NSA whistleblower Russ Tice appeared on MSNBC's Countdown program with Keith Olbermann to speak more about the NSA's illegal monitoring of journalists. See "Whistleblower: NSA spied on everyone, targeted journalists" on RawStory.com. Here's the Countdown video:

  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #39 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 6:42pm
Print Post  
The NSA's Project "Echelon" probably did the same kind of thing, and took place, I believe, under the CLINTON administration.  I wonder why the left leaning obermann didn't ask about that?  Even as a sidebar.  Selective journalism at it's best.   Cool

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6006
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #40 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 7:43pm
Print Post  
T.M. Cullen wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 6:42pm:
The NSA's Project "Echelon" probably did the same kind of thing, and took place, I believe, under the CLINTON administration.  I wonder why the left leaning obermann didn't ask about that?  Even as a sidebar.  Selective journalism at it's best.   Cool

TC


I disagree. That Olbermann did not discuss Echelon (the code name of a computer system for sharing intercept information between the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) is readily explained by the fact that Tice's allegations of governmental criminality do not concern Echelon. Rather, they are about the NSA's illegal interception of the communications of essentially all Americans -- even those with no terrorist connections -- as well as NSA's (also illegal) targeting of journalists. Olbermann questioned Tice about what he knew and how he knew it. And I think his commentary in this case was spot-on.

Note that Olbermann also took Barack Obama to task over the latter's support for the FISA bill granting telecommunications companies immunity from lawsuits for their complicity in the NSA's law-breaking.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #41 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 1:42am
Print Post  
I said as a side bar, since they were talking about illegally collecting on US citizens.

From what I have read about Echelon (and I had nothing to do with it when I worked in the SIGINT community, and only know what I know from what I've read on the web)  the NSA would collect on UK citizens (which would be illegal for the NSA SIGINT counterpart in the UK ?GCHQ?), then share the info with the UK government.  GCHQ, in turn, spied on americans and shared the info with the NSA.  This so as to not violate USSID 18.  The net effect was as if the NSA had actually spied on Americans.

As for the specific targeting individuals (journalists, funeral directors, gay florists...etc).  Echelon may not have specifically targeted individuals, and was just a computer driven system of collection receivers...etc. as you said,  but who knows how analysts could have sifted through the data once collected by the system.  Via meta tags...etc.   Again, UK on US citizens, US on UK citizens, with the two working together. 

Do you think OBAMA will make any changes as to polygraph policy within the federal government?   That's the million dollar question.

My point is they can get around this stuff, and have for years.  Under all administrations going way back.  As for the Oberman piece, your average viewer (say my mom) would have come away thinking, "Gee, that GW spied on us!".  Which is probably the impression he wanted to make. 

You have to take what you see on TV with a grain of salt, whether from Oberman, O'reilly, hannity, whomever.

Now, as for the CIA's giving unsuspecting soldiers LSD.....just kidding.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fair Chance
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Joined: Oct 10th, 2002
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #42 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 2:47am
Print Post  
Gentlemen,

Even paranoids have real enemies.  Welcome to EVE,  HAL's ugly stepsister.  How close to the truth you are.  So close we better not mention it here.

Regards.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6006
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #43 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 4:53am
Print Post  
Here is the second part of Keith Olbermann's interview of Russ Tice, in which it is revealed that the NSA also collected credit card records of American citizens. Olbermann also speaks with New York Times reporter James Risen, who was the subject of government surveillance:



A text summary is available on RawStory.com.
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2009 at 2:29pm by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
PGP Public Key (offline): 2BF4374B
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: NSA FIRSTFRUITS: Is This Site Being Monitored?
Reply #44 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 6:01am
Print Post  
New York Times?  They lost their credibility with me a long time ago.  If you want the real "dope" you have to read "Hustler"!

It's all politics.  If Obama did it, they'd find a way to cover for him!  Just like they will find a handy excuse for him when he FAILS to pull the troops out of Iraq.

They covered him pretty well during the election campaign.  We will find out soon enough what this lack of vetting will be mean for the country.

But I don't want to get political!   Smiley

TC

P.S.  I forget which of our founding fathers said it, maybe TJ.  But it was words to the effect that any politician even , in his most angelic form is but a "necessary evil", in his worse form a "curse".  The less government and politicians effect us, what ever their ilk, the better!  The best any politician can do is pick our pocket and try to control us!

Joke:  What is the difference between a prostitute and a politician?

Ans:  Well, they both take our money and screw us in the end, but at least with a prostitute, we get our rocks off!!
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Send TopicPrint