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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment (Read 28661 times)
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #15 - Mar 2nd, 2007 at 6:01am
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Condoms are not 100% effective---but good enough for me to use. But for my (probablly) sexually active teen children, I don't feel that they are effective enough. Hello------ever heard of the parental double standard?
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #16 - Mar 2nd, 2007 at 9:27am
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palerider wrote on Mar 1st, 2007 at 9:06pm:
Nor would I, a polygraph Examiner. No child's safety is or should be put into risk by a polygraph test that at it's very best accuracy (97%?) would be 3% short of being trustworthy (I have 3 young children.) Similarly, you will find that even oncologists who treat their family members will get a second and third opinion on a positive biopsy. Again I say that at no time does a "passed poly" sex offender on parole/probation EVER get the green light, or get ignored/unmonitored.


Your statement that the polygraph is 97% accurate is not supported by the literature - both pro and anti...

If supervised sex offenders never get ignored or unmonitored, wouldn't that mean that there should be no recidivism in this population because they would have no chance to reoffend?

Do you really believe that a parole office with a caseload of 70 to 120 offenders can effectively monitor all them?

Do you really believe that these POs would not take nondeceptive results to mean that increased supervision is unwarranted because the offender is being compliant?

Do you really believe that an offender who has a nondeceptive test is always compliant?

palerider wrote on Mar 2nd, 2007 at 6:01am:
Condoms are not 100% effective---but good enough for me to use. But for my (probablly) sexually active teen children, I don't feel that they are effective enough. Hello------ever heard of the parental double standard?
Undecided


Comparing the accuracy of polygraphs (a device that has both false positives and false negatives) with effectiveness of condoms (which either stop sperm or do not stop sperm) is simply misdirection. You better stick with your medical diagnosis analogies...
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #17 - Mar 2nd, 2007 at 11:41am
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digithead,

I find it disturbing that someone so deeply deluded as to believe that polygraphic lie detection might have an accuracy rate as high as 97% has anything to do with the supervision of convicted sex offenders. And to suppose that probation and parole officers who have drunk the polygraph Kool-Aid won't make decisions based on the results is sheer lunacy.
  

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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #18 - Mar 3rd, 2007 at 3:49pm
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In reference to condoms, the numerical efficacy of condoms has been scientifically test and those tests are repeatable.

As far as I'm aware, in all cases where polygraphy has been subjected to scientific testing, the results have been that polygraph is about as good as a coin flip.  I feel no comfort in the fact that a sex offender has "passed" a poly.

Please cite you source for the 97% effectiveness claim.
  
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #19 - Mar 4th, 2007 at 9:40pm
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How accurate is the polygraph?
In 1990, Norman Ansley1 published a report of polygraph validity from studies of real cases conducted since 1980. Researchers conducted twelve validity studies based on 3,174 real cases. Polygraphist’s decisions in those cases were compared to other results such as confessions, factual evidence and judicial dispositions. The results, assuming every disagreement was a polygraph error, indicated a validity of 98% when polygraphists score their own polygraph charts. According to Matte2, the algorithms that score computerized polygraph tests are correct about 95% of the time.
References:
1. Ansley, Norman, (ed.) (1997). November-December, “The Validity and Reliability of Polygraph Testing,” American Polygraph Association Newsletter, 30 (6): 6
2. Matte, Ph.D., James. (1996) Forensic Psychophysiology Using the Polygraph, J.A.M Publications, pp 424-425.
  
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #20 - Mar 4th, 2007 at 10:57pm
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Quote:
How accurate is the polygraph?
In 1990, Norman Ansley1 published a report of polygraph validity from studies of real cases conducted since 1980. Researchers conducted twelve validity studies based on 3,174 real cases. Polygraphist’s decisions in those cases were compared to other results such as confessions, factual evidence and judicial dispositions. The results, assuming every disagreement was a polygraph error, indicated a validity of 98% when polygraphists score their own polygraph charts. According to Matte2, the algorithms that score computerized polygraph tests are correct about 95% of the time.
References:
1. Ansley, Norman, (ed.) (1997). November-December, “The Validity and Reliability of Polygraph Testing,” American Polygraph Association Newsletter, 30 (6): 6
2. Matte, Ph.D., James. (1996) Forensic Psychophysiology Using the Polygraph, J.A.M Publications, pp 424-425.


You're going to rely on a study published in a polygraph newsletter to prove that accuracy is high? That's pretty funny. One would think that with those results he could've gotten into a top-tier psychology journal...

So how do you refute the National Academy of Science conclusion that "Estimates of accuracy from these 57 studies are almost certainly higher than actual polygraph accuracy of specific-incident testing in the field. Laboratory studies tend to overestimate accuracy because laboratory conditions involve much less variation in test implementation, in the characteristics of examinees, and in the nature and context of investigations than arise in typical field applications. Observational studies of polygraph testing in the field are plagued by selection and measurement biases, such as the inclusion of tests carried out by examiners with knowledge of the evidence and of cases whose outcomes are affected by the examination. In addition, they frequently lack a clear and independent determination of truth. Due to these inherent biases, observational field studies are also highly likely to overestimate real-world polygraph accuracy."
  
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #21 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 7:08pm
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Not looking for argument, simply posted two studies conducted that indicate high accuracy rates.  I'm not concerned about publishing them or seeing them published nor am I concerned about scientific validity, just responding to the prior post about studies.

Palerider did not post them or respond.  I will however look for other studies that have been published and are in fact studies that have validity according to "YOUR" standards.
  
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #22 - Mar 6th, 2007 at 11:31pm
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Not looking for argument, simply posted two studies conducted that indicate high accuracy rates.  I'm not concerned about publishing them or seeing them published nor am I concerned about scientific validity, just responding to the prior post about studies.

Palerider did not post them or respond.  I will however look for other studies that have been published and are in fact studies that have validity according to "YOUR" standards.  


These are not "MY" standards, rather they are the standards set forth and accepted by the National Science Foundation, National Institute of Health, Nationa Institute of Justice, National Academy of Science, and countless other academic and professional organizations. Simply put, most estimates of polygraph "accuracy" fail to control for confounding, selection bias, and measurement error. They also mix studies with different outcomes and do not distinguish properly between the two types of error (false positives and negatives). Finally, they all fail to properly understand the difference between validity, reliability, and repeatability...

If these high estimates of accuracy are only accepted by the polygraph community and are roundly rejected by the larger scientific community (NSF, NIH, NAS, psych community) as absurd, what does that say about the polygraph profession?
  
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #23 - Mar 7th, 2007 at 2:56am
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As stated before, not looking for an argument or really a discussion relating to any studies or validity of studies.  Simply posted two from the polygraph community.
  
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #24 - Mar 7th, 2007 at 8:35pm
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Quote:
As stated before, not looking for an argument or really a discussion relating to any studies or validity of studies.  Simply posted two from the polygraph community.  


Then why bother posting at all? Is it merely a rebuttal to my claim that the literature does not support the notion of such an absurdly high accuracy rate? Then I stand corrected and amend my claim to say that independently peer-reviewed literature published in academic journals do not support the notion that the CQT polygraph can have any high degree of accuracy...
  
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #25 - Mar 7th, 2007 at 9:47pm
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Thank you so much for your "Amendment".  Still no debate or further discussion.  That post was for information only and is only supported by proponents of Polygraph, conducted by Polygraphists, and used by polygraphists.  Thought you might find it of interest.  Sorry to have disappointed you.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #26 - Mar 7th, 2007 at 9:59pm
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Quote:
Thank you so much for your "Amendment".  Still no debate or further discussion.  That post was for information only and is only supported by proponents of Polygraph, conducted by Polygraphists, and used by polygraphists.  Thought you might find it of interest.  Sorry to have disappointed you. 


Perhaps the reason you're not interested in debate or further discussion is that you know you're shoveling shit?
  

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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #27 - Mar 8th, 2007 at 2:52am
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Quote:
Perhaps the reason you're not interested in debate or further discussion is that you know you're shoveling shit?


My, my.  Isn't that an articulate statement... Roll Eyes

  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #28 - Mar 8th, 2007 at 8:08am
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nonombre wrote on Mar 8th, 2007 at 2:52am:
My, my.  Isn't that an articulate statement... Roll Eyes



I chose my words carefully. I think that ridicule is the only appropriate response to one who advocates a viewpoint while refusing to discuss or debate it, as if that were somehow a virtue.
  

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Re: Polygraphs in Sex Offender Treatment
Reply #29 - Mar 8th, 2007 at 7:00pm
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[quote author=Lienot link=board=post;num=1135087381;start=0#19 date=03/04/07 at 13:40:01]How accurate is the polygraph?
Researchers conducted twelve validity studies based on 3,174 real cases. Polygraphist’s decisions in those cases were compared to other results such as confessions, factual evidence and judicial dispositions. The results, assuming every disagreement was a polygraph error, indicated a validity of 98% when polygraphists score their own polygraph charts.

What is there to debate in this post?  Validity? Method used for the study?  It is not a published study in journals other than polygraph journals?

I did not participate in the studies, have  only read them and believe you should read them before making the statement you made.

I really don't like debating in this format, I prefer face to face debate and deiscussion. 

I will not return your insult Mr. Maschke. Your ad hominem attack deserves no return or retribution.
  
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