Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New and Nervous (Read 39770 times)
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New and Nervous
Aug 5th, 2004 at 8:48pm
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Hello, everyone. I have read The Lie Behind The Lie Detector and it is very useful and informative. I have a troubling matter to discuss.

I am a teenager in a sex offender treatment program and I will take a polygraph within the next few weeks. It is my first. I want to answer it truthfully but I am afraid that due to the fact that the polygraph is unreliable, I will fail it and have my treatment extended. The people in the group tell me that the questions will only regard whether I have broken any rules during probation. Is that true? If not, what can I really expect during the polygraph? What kind of polygraph test can I expect to take, what types of questions will it contain, and what countermeasures can I employ to protect myself? I would appreciate advice. Thank you.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #1 - Aug 6th, 2004 at 8:46am
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In some sex offender treatment programs, the first polygraph examination administered is a "sexual history disclosure test" that is not limited in scope to whether the examinee has broken rules of probation. The information provided by others in your group suggests, however, that you will not be administered such an examination.

The polygraph technique you will encounter will most probably be a "probable-lie control question test." Based on the reports you've heard from others, it seems that the relevant questions will be about whether you've complied with the terms of your probation. The countermeasures described in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector should be helpful in protecting against the risk of a false positive outcome.
  

George W. Maschke
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #2 - Aug 6th, 2004 at 6:01pm
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Thanks.

I've seen some of the posters here and some of their remarks are just vicious and meanspirited. It's nice to know that there are a few people out there who post legitimate, intelligent, and relevant responses to those who merely seek advice, not opinions.

Thanks again.
  
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #3 - Aug 6th, 2004 at 8:52pm
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kcr and other interested individuals,

You will find the discussion of countermeasures and question types, etc on this site and in particular TLBTLD to be very informative. One thing that I have not seen mentioned though is the following.

*** very important***  The various question types (irrelevant, relevant, control) are reviewed as groups before the in-test  phase of the test---in other words during the pre-test phase.  You don't have to wait for the test (that phase where you are connected to the polygraph, you are being asked questions, and the charts/computer are/is rolling) and try to guess which questions are relevant and which are control (the ones you produce responses too).  You should already know what they are from the pretest (before you are ever attached to the polygraph)...again, pay careful attention-- the questions will be reviewed in groups (largely because they would have to give individual explanations for each question if this were not the case) according to question type.

Those which are similar to but not the same as the main event, i.e., the relevant issues which is why you are there...and often misrepresented as some sort of beginning reprehensible activity that precedes and leads to the relevant issues--these are the control questions and again the ones you want to produce a response to.  The ones that the polygraph operator will tell you are to establish a baseline, establish when you are telling the truth, etc are in fact none of the above but irrelevant questions (e.g., is today Friday?, etc).  Again simply pay attention to the questions as they are posed to you in the pre-test phase.  It should be pretty clear (if you are
simply trying to determine which group is relevant and which group is control as opposed to the type of each individual question) which questions you need to produce responses to.  Again, if you listen, the polygraph examiner has unintentionally told you which questions you need to produce responses to in advance of the test (nice guy, right?---- naaah) which will allow you to successfully pass your test.
  
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #4 - Aug 7th, 2004 at 2:32am
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Seriously Anonymous, what makes you think anyone should listen to your unsolicited advice?   That is providing they can even understand what you are saying.  I've never read such a confusing string of drivel, except in the GG twins (George & Gino's) stuff.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #5 - Aug 7th, 2004 at 7:36am
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Seriously Anonymous, what makes you think anyone should listen to your unsolicited advice?   That is providing they can even understand what you are saying.  I've never read such a confusing string of drivel, except in the GG twins (George & Gino's) stuff.


Seriously, "cop," what makes you think anyone should listen to the empty bluster of an irate polygraph operator peeved at seeing the tricks of his trade openly aired (and powerless to stop it)?

Anonymous' advice was not, as you aver, unsolicited: it's directly responsive to kcr's inquiry. What gets your goat is not that there is anything wrong with Anonymous' advice, but that you know it's spot on.

Grin
« Last Edit: Aug 7th, 2004 at 12:57pm by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #6 - Aug 7th, 2004 at 6:31pm
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Quote:
]you know it's spot on.[/i]

Grin


How in the hell would you know that his advice is "spot on"?  You have never used any countermeasures, and the only 2 polygraph tests you have taken you failed miserably.  You are full of shit George.  But you do have a good vocabulary.  I aver to your use of the word "aver".
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #7 - Aug 7th, 2004 at 9:38pm
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How in the hell would you know that his advice is "spot on"?  You have never used any countermeasures, and the only 2 polygraph tests you have taken you failed miserably.


I know that the various question types (relevant, control, and irrelevant) are reviewed as groups during the pre-test phase because it's a well-documented, decades-old practice of the polygraph community.

For example, the DoDPI Test for Espionage and Sabotage administration guidelines provide as follows:

"7. Explain and review the sabotage and espionage relevant questions.

8. Explain and review the sacrifice relevant questions.

9. Explain and review the directed lie comparison questions.

10. Explain and review the irrelevant questions."

And DoDPI's Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test manual, with a minor change in the order in which the sacrifice relevant question is reviewed, provides, at para. 7.1.6:

"Phase I questions are reviewed with the examinee in the following sequence, sacrifice relevant question, relevant questions, comparison questions, and irrelevant questions. Following the completion of Phase I testing, Phase II questions are reviewed with the examinee in the same sequence."

Polygraph pioneers John E. Reid and Fred E. Inbau also teach examiners to review questions as groups in their classic textbook, Truth and Deception: The Polygraph ("Lie-Detector") Technique. 2nd ed. Baltimore: The Williams & Wilkins Company, 1977. Reid and Inbau omit sacrifice relevant questions, but otherwise teach polygraph examiners to review the question groups in the same order as DoDPI: relevant questions first, then irrelevant questions, and lastly irrelevant questions. See pages 24-32.

Quote:
You are full of shit George.


I leave it to readers to decide which of us is full of what.  Roll Eyes

Quote:
But you do have a good vocabulary.  I aver to your use of the word "aver".


You would have done well to have consulted a dictionary before writing that. Wink
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
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Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #8 - Aug 7th, 2004 at 10:04pm
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And how did you get all that from the drivel anonymous was spouting?  And yes you are right, I should have said 'I refer to your use of the word "aver"'.   I stand corrected.  But you still have no experience with countermeasures, you failed both polygraphs you have taken, and there is no way you could know what is good or bad information about them.  And I find it ironic that you cite the very people you criticize as being frauds.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #9 - Aug 7th, 2004 at 11:04pm
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And how did you get all that from the drivel anonymous was spouting?


Anonymous' post is certainly not drivel. But perhaps it is above your reading level. Roll Eyes

Quote:
But you still have no experience with countermeasures, you failed both polygraphs you have taken, and there is no way you could know what is good or bad information about them.


You refer to my experience of failing two polygraph examinations as if you're divulging some deep dark embarrassing secret. You're not. You know about my polygraph experience because I have shared it in my public statement, "Too Hot of a Potato: A Citizen Soldier's Encounter With the Polygraph." (There's a link to this statement at the bottom of each of my posts to this message board.) It was the experience of telling the truth and yet being branded as a liar by the polygraph that led me to educate myself about polygraphy.

Your claim that "there is no way" I "could know what is good or bad information about [polygraph countermeasures]" is untrue. One need only consult the polygraph literature. The Lie Behind the Lie Detector is well-annotated with references that skeptical readers can check for themselves.

Quote:
And I find it ironic that you cite the very people you criticize as being frauds.


Indeed, polygraphers are frauds. But the sources I cited above were produced by polgyraphers for the training of other polygraphers. So what precisely is ironic about my citing them in a discussion of polygraph procedure? Roll Eyes
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
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Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #10 - Aug 8th, 2004 at 12:59am
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Well, George and "anonymous", I hope you have helped KCR pass his polygraph.  Never miss a chance to help a pervert sex offender, right guys?  And KCR, be sure to listen to George and anonymous, they really have some valuable information - and you might even do as well as George did and fail your test too.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #11 - Aug 8th, 2004 at 1:34am
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Quote:
Well, George and "anonymous", I hope you have helped KCR pass his polygraph.  Never miss a chance to help a pervert sex offender, right guys?  And KCR, be sure to listen to George and anonymous, they really have some valuable information - and you might even do as well as George did and fail your test too. 


Whether the population being screened is law enforcement applicants, CIA agents, or convicted sex offenders, polygraph screening has no validity whatsoever. Truthful persons in post conviction polygraph screening programs are in as much need of protection against the pseudoscience of polygraphy as anyone else. Indeed, they are arguably more so.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
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Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #12 - Aug 8th, 2004 at 1:57am
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Truthful?  Yeah right.  Just like you were truthful when you failed both of your polygraph tests George.  Everyone who thinks George was truthful, stand on your head and stack greasy bb's with your nose.
  
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #13 - Aug 8th, 2004 at 6:12am
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I'm quite enjoying this thread. It amuses me to see each one of cop's feeble attempts at putting up an intelligent argument swatted down like flies. Notice how he just gave up and resorted to childish name-calling?

"Perverts" or not, sex offenders as well communists, grade school students, ice cream vendors, government officials, or whatever need to be informed about polygraph "tests." The reason why a person needs to take a polygraph is irrelevant. The truth is, people are being misled about the polygraph's abilities.

Thanks again, George.
  
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Re: New and Nervous
Reply #14 - Aug 8th, 2004 at 10:55pm
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Hello there.  I am too working on becoming a police officer.  I am shocked by the idea of explaining how a to pass a poly to a sex offender.  This is real scary stuff.  Although I do not know the circumstances of KCR's charge or conviction, however I would not be too fond of having a sex offender as my neighbor, and especially one who can beat a poly test.  I do agree that the poly is a poor way to test the validity of someones truth.  People who shouldn't pass it, pass it, and people who should pass it, sometimes fail.  It is flawed, big time.  We shouldn't use the poly unless it is proven to be 100% accurate.  I like this site, however there has to be another way to deal with the unrealiable reading of the poly.  I don't think encouraging future peace officers to cheat and lie is the way to go.  I think those who are concerned about taking a poly, find a department that doesn't poly.  If you take the poly be honest, and take your lumps.  If you don't believe in the  poly, then why would you try to get into law enforcement when you know you may have to poly?  I think the point has been made that poly's are worthless the majority of the time and the ability to determine if one is telling the truth using a machine still needs refinement.  Before I took the poly I read all the material on using countermeasures and so on....However I used none.  I couldn't do it, and didn't want to do it.  A good peace officer should have integrity and morals.  If one begins lying and cheating from the beginning shall we believe that the lying and cheating will stop once he gets the job?  Why should it?  In my opinion an officer should be selected by who he is, and not who he describes himself to be...Be honest, have faith and start out on the right foot and if you get hired you know it was because you were the best candidate and not the best cheat................
  
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