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anxietyguy
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Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Apr 20th, 2004 at 7:44pm
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I understand how to employ countermeasures to control questions, though I am unclear on how long to hold them.I hear that there is a 20-30 second gap between questions and was wondering do I hold the countermeasure for the whole 20-30 seconds, or just when I am answering yes or no to the control question. Also is it advisable to use a mental countermeasure at the same time as a physical countermeasure or just use one? Thanks for the help on my upcomming exam for employment.
  
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #1 - Apr 20th, 2004 at 8:00pm
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You are right to ask "George or anyone", because just about anyone knows as much as George does. Wink
  
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anxietyguy
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #2 - Apr 20th, 2004 at 8:12pm
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I-Smell-BS,
I take it your another angry polygraph examiner that is upset that George is exposing the "BS" of the polygraph exam.I forgot to include in my thread I am NOT seeking advice from pro-polygraphers.I have enough BS going on in my life having to submit to this coin flip of an exam.So the only BS I smell is you.
  
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Kona
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #3 - Apr 20th, 2004 at 11:54pm
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Anxiety,

According to Doug Williams' handbook, "How to Sting the Polygraph," your entire reaction to the control question shouldn't last more than about 9 seconds.  Assuming 25 seconds between questions, you should start to react right after you answer the control question, and gradually increase the pucker and pnemo reaction to peak at no more than 4 1/2 seconds, then gradually decrease the reaction to finish at approx 9 seconds.  After this, resume normal breathing, and totally relax until the next control question.  I used this techique, and it worked like a champ.  You have to practice this reaction if you want to pass the exam.  The anal pucker should never exceed "half strength," at the peak of the reaction, because it really produces a large rise in your blood pressure.  The breathing patterns also need to be subtle, and not obvious or overdone.  I highly suggest reading Doug's handbook for all the details. 

Good luck.

Kona
  
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triple x
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #4 - Apr 21st, 2004 at 1:51am
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Anxietyguy,

If you have not already, I suggest that you download and read “TLBTLD” available for free here on this website. I too have read Doug Williams booklet “How to Sting the Polygraph”, and in my opinion, find “TLBTLD” to be superior, and better written.

[You ask]
“Also is it advisable to use a mental countermeasure at the same time as a physical countermeasure or just use one?”

Personally, I feel that if you employed both mental and physical countermeasures simultaneously following a control question, would likely produce a significant reaction on the charts and cause the polygraph examiner to be suspicious of possible countermeasures. I would recommend that you err on the side of caution, and employ either mental or physical countermeasures, but not both.

I do believe Doug Williams booklet “How to Sting the Polygraph” to be accurate and effective. Having said that, it’s strictly my opinion that “TLBTLD” is overall a better-written document.

Good luck with your forthcoming pre-employment polygraph exam. In addition, please consider posting your results following your polygraph experience.

False positive results are not uncommon.

Knowledge is power.


Triple x
  
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #5 - Apr 21st, 2004 at 3:45am
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And how did you do on your test Trip x?
  
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anxietyguy
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #6 - Apr 21st, 2004 at 7:54am
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Kona,
Thanks for the helpfull info I think I am going to purchase Doug's book.I have about a month I anticipate before the exam so I am getting as much info as possible.One more question,what breathing technique do u suggest using while employing the countermeasure?I will post updates the closer i get...thanks again.
  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #7 - Apr 21st, 2004 at 8:41am
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anxietyguy,

As "triple x" mentioned, countermeasures are discussed in detail in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. (See Chapter 4.) We suggest using breathing countermeasures (which have the advantage that the respiratory tracings are the only ones that can be directly controlled) in addition to one (and only one) of the following: mental countermeasures, tongue-biting, or anal sphincter contraction. We suggest that these countermeasures be applied for 8-20 seconds, but no longer than the beginning of the asking of the next question.

Behavioral countermeasures are also important and are discussed at some length in Chapter 4.
  

George W. Maschke
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Kona
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #8 - Apr 21st, 2004 at 9:10am
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anxietyguy wrote on Apr 21st, 2004 at 7:54am:
Kona,
Thanks for the helpfull info I think I am going to purchase Doug's book.I have about a month I anticipate before the exam so I am getting as much info as possible.One more question,what breathing technique do u suggest using while employing the countermeasure?I will post updates the closer i get...thanks again.


Anxiety,

In Doug's pamphlet, he outlines 4 or 5 different breathing patterns, and shows what they should look like on the graph.  It's kind of difficult to explain them to you without seeing visually what they should look like on the graph.  One of the patterns is a series of 5 shallow breaths, each breath inhaling more than exhaling.  On the last breath, you're supposed to inhale slightly more, exhale fully, then take two deep breaths.  After the two deep breaths, you are supposed to resume normal breathing.  Doug really hammers home that you must practice these patterns, and be very subtle.  The pneumo tubes around your chest and abdomen measure very small changes in your breathing, so you have to be careful not to overdo it, and be obvious. 

I agree that TLBLTD is a great book to read, and it's free, but Doug's 20 page handbook is written in layman's terms, very easy to comprehend, and is direct/to the point.  I suggest that you read both!!

Good luck, and keep us informed.

Kona
  
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #9 - Apr 22nd, 2004 at 3:37am
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Yes, you must hold it for the duration to ensure the countermeasure will be effective.

When I tried, it made my butt hurt, but I passed the test.

Good Luck!
  
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Cancerman
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #10 - Apr 22nd, 2004 at 4:05am
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I think PolySucks is right.  It would be best to hold the countermeasure as long as possible during the pause between questions. 

I held my Countermeasure for a full 15 seconds and when my XXX--three letter agency--polygrapher (silly him) looked at my results, he laughed and said that I was a "texbook" responder, whatever that means.  Anyway, I passed Grin Grin

Others told me they did it for three or four seconds and they didn't even come close to passing their tests.  Embarrassed Embarrassed The polygraph dude started yelling at them for not telling the truth!!! Shocked Shocked They told me that they weren't telling the whole truth either, oops.

"Bottom" line is, if you want to pass (especially if you're not really being truthful), you've got to ensure the countermeasure will work by doing it right.  So, you've got to........Hold it Long, Hold it Strong!!! Wink Wink

Peace out!!!!!!
Cancerman
  
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #11 - Apr 22nd, 2004 at 5:02am
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I think PolySucks is right.  It would be best to hold the countermeasure as long as possible during the pause between questions.  

I held my Countermeasure for a full 15 seconds and when my XXX--three letter agency--polygrapher (silly him) looked at my results, he laughed and said that I was a "texbook" responder, whatever that means.  Anyway, I passed Grin Grin

Others told me they did it for three or four seconds and they didn't even come close to passing their tests.  Embarrassed Embarrassed The polygraph dude started yelling at them for not telling the truth!!! Shocked Shocked They told me that they weren't telling the whole truth either, oops.

"Bottom" line is, if you want to pass (especially if you're not really being truthful), you've got to ensure the countermeasure will work by doing it right.  So, you've got to........Hold it Long, Hold it Strong!!! Wink Wink

Peace out!!!!!!
Cancerman

Cancerman,

Uh, how is it you know multiple applicants that failed their test AND used CM's as you describe?   Grin

-Marty
  

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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #12 - Apr 22nd, 2004 at 5:41am
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Marty--

We were all criminal justice majors (this may give me away) in college and we are still friends.   A few of us decided to to apply to XXX together, and being that we hung out togther, we all knew that we had "issues."    They had their polyraph test long before I did and they failed (they told me they were afraid of being caught so they only did the countermeasure ever so slightly and for a short duration).  To ensure that I passed mine, I did the countermeasure thing with much energy and loooong duration (I was afraid of failing the test and not getting my dream job so I held mine Long and Strong--guess who is happy at work Grin).  That silly polygraph fool never knew what hit him--"textbook" responder he said, HAHAHA!!!

Lesson be learned-- are you afraid of being caught or not getting your dream job?   Then you know what you have to do..........Hold it Long, Hold it Strong!!!!

Good luck and beat the bastards!!!!!

Peace out,
Cancerman
  
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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #13 - Apr 22nd, 2004 at 8:12am
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We were all criminal justice majors (this may give me away) in college and we are still friends.   A few of us decided to to apply to XXX together, and being that we hung out togther, we all knew that we had "issues."    They had their polyraph test long before I did and they failed (they told me they were afraid of being caught so they only did the countermeasure ever so slightly and for a short duration).  To ensure that I passed mine, I did the countermeasure thing with much energy and loooong duration (I was afraid of failing the test and not getting my dream job so I held mine Long and Strong--guess who is happy at work Grin).  That silly polygraph fool never knew what hit him--"textbook" responder he said, HAHAHA!!!

Lesson be learned-- are you afraid of being caught or not getting your dream job?   Then you know what you have to do..........Hold it Long, Hold it Strong!!!!

Good luck and beat the bastards!!!!!

Peace out,
Cancerman


So tell me Cancerman, why would a group of guys with "issues" (stoners???) be in a criminal justice program together? While I think the polygraph has a large "woo-woo" aspect, do you feel at all guilty that you fraudulently obtained employment?

Though individuals respond in quite variable ways, the technique (long and strong) you describe would be unlikely to produce the kind of responses on controls described in Matte's work, the prinicipal "textbook" extant.

Further, the only time I'm aware polygraphers use descriptors such as "textbook responder" is in the conditioning phase prior to the test. They tend not to be very verbal unless they go into a confession/interrogation mode. Large agencies send their results to a QA review and they don't usually want to be too opinionated lest they be overturned due to suspected CMs.

And why did you say this? "They told me that they weren't telling the whole truth either, oops."  After all, you knew in advance they had "issues." It sounds like an after the fact admission.

-Marty
  

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Re: Countermeasure Question For George or Anyone
Reply #14 - Apr 22nd, 2004 at 9:32am
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Hey Marty,

Don't know who you are, but I appreciate that you are taking an interest in my situation.  You aren't trying to drag this out so you can "out" me and my employment with my XXX lettered agency are you....hmmmmm

It's getting very late, but let me try to answer your questions before I zonk:

1.  Q:   So tell me Cancerman, why would a group of guys with "issues" (stoners) be in a criminal justice program together?

A.  I never said my "issues" or my friends "issues" were that we were "stoners."  Even if my friends and I did/did not use drugs, are you naive enough to imply that college students majoring in criminal justice would not be involved in drugs just because of the major?  Obviously you haven't been to college, or if you did you never went to any parties and looked around (underaged drinking, "experimentation" with drugs, etc.)   

2.  Q.  While I think the polygraph has a large "woo-woo" aspect, do you feel at all guilty that you fraudulently obtained employment?

A.  No, not feeling quilty.  Who said I gained fraudulent employment?  I met all the requirements for employment, to include passing a polygraph.

3.  Q.  the technique (long and strong) you describe would be unlikely to produce the kind of responses on controls described in Matte's work, the prinicipal "textbook" extant.

A.  Who ever said anythuing about Matte.  I don't know who that is, and I don't care.  I just know that my college friend told me what he was going to do and how he was going to do it.  I just ensured that my actions would create a big unmistakable response.

4.  Q.  Further, the only time I'm aware polygraphers use descriptors such as "textbook responder" is in the conditioning phase prior to the test.

A.  Does that mean you are a pissed off polygraph dude angry that I passed?  I don't really know what a "textbook" responder is.  I don't know what the conditioning phase is.  I know only my experience, and my polygraph guy laughed and said I was "textbook."  Whatever that meant, I didn't care....and I sure as hell wasn't about to ask him about it because all I wanted was out of his office!!!

5.  Q.  And why did you say this? "They told me that they weren't telling the whole truth either, oops."  After all, you knew in advance they had "issues." It sounds like an after the fact admission.

A.  Because going in to the exam my friends weren't fully decided  if they were going to tell the whole truth or the partial truth and try to get away with it.  Obviously, the partial truth didn't work!!!  So it's either tell the whole truth and pass, or use a countermeaser to pass.

Me?  I did my countermeasure Long and Strong and I have my job, my friends don't.   And that is the only way I know that works.

MARTY (POLYMAN), don't be pissed off at me.  I hope you were not the polydude that I duped!!!!  I'm just trying to help out  others on the proven way to use countermeasures.  My method worked, my friends' didn't.

Lessoned be learned....if you're gonna use countermeasures do it right.  So you gotta Do it Long, and Do it Strong!!!

Peace out,
Cancerman
  
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