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AntiPolygraph.org Message Board › Polygraph and CVSA Forums › Share Your Polygraph or CVSA Experience › I had my poly!

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I had my poly! (Read 37212 times)

George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6220 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Re: I had my poly! Reply #45 - Jul 21^st, 2003 at 9:06am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Ray wrote in part: Quote: 9 for 11. That's over 90% correct on DI/SR charts. No. It's about 82%.

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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Poly-Killer Senior User Offline "Knock, Knock!" Posts: 78 Location: Everywhere Joined: Apr 29^th, 2003 Gender:	Re: I had my poly! Reply #46 - Jul 21^st, 2003 at 9:27am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Bat-turd, I'm sorry to have offended your seemingly delicate nature. How would you propose I prove to you I am in the "blue"? ??? As far as my dreams, Im living them. I am a defensive tactics instructor, a firearms instructor, a certified physical fitness specialist/CSCS, and currently enrolled in FTO school. By the way batty, don't sweat the "little SWAT guy" thing, it's meant to be light-hearted, and for your information, I happen to like the "little SWAT guy". I didn't mean to frighten you with the "Poly-killer" moniker, it's just my little dig at the poly world. Why? I'm so glad you asked, it's because I have effectively "dusted" every poly/ examiner who has had me in their "lair". I go in, play my role, and walk out laughing and disgusted at the same time. POLY SCREENING IS A JOKE. What's so crappy about the whole thing is I CAN"T LAUGH IN THEIR FACES and tell them I just played them like a harp, now THAT would be my idea of entertainment. 8) What's so crappy about my "'tude", anyway? Is it crappy because it offends you? Guess what...TOO BAD. Later, Oh king of guano! Sincerely, POLY- K I L L E R (ooooooo, sooo scary! )
	« Last Edit: Jul 21^st, 2003 at 10:45am by Poly-Killer »

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Poly-Killer Senior User Offline "Knock, Knock!" Posts: 78 Location: Everywhere Joined: Apr 29^th, 2003 Gender:	Re: I had my poly! Reply #47 - Jul 21^st, 2003 at 10:02am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Ray, You have raised some issues that I believe have some validity to them. Not to pat myself on the back, but I think I have as well. You may be good at what you do, you may enjoy it and think it's the right thing...in the end, that's important, to believe in what you do. As far as my friends being cleared, that in no way validates or vindicates poly-screening. Obviously one of the examiners was wrong...if it were truly a "science" as some pro-poly people would have us believe, this should not have happened. As for example I gave, are you saying someone who drinks and drives regularly wouldn't be DQ'ed? I don't know about your agency's standards, but mine wouldn't hire that person. As far as how many rapes, homicides, yada yada yada you've solved...assuming it's true, it's misleading. I work the street and do some instructing on the side. When the street officers make contacts, cultivate CI's, respond to calls, etc., most of what we get is reported and forwarded to the detective bureau. We generally don't try "solve" the more complex cases...we PATROL and do street level investigations, make arrests, etc.. You may well have solved all those cases...point is it isn't my job. Of course I'm not dismissing the importance of solving cases, I'm just saying is isn't that much a part of what I do as a street officer. As far as the "macho" thing goes you guys keep talking about...this makes me laugh. I understand about all the macho stuff, and trust me, I've talked far people into cuffs than I've forced into cuffs, although I prefer talking, neither works 100% of the time...so please, save the words of wisdom. One last thing, your "calculations", like many other assumptions you've made...are a little off. My agency has 9 fulltime examiners, formerly 10 (he retired on disability). I was interrogated by 2 others, 1 being for the first dept I worked for, which had 2 fulltime and 2 part-time examiner / investigators. Hang on a sec while I get my calculator...OK, back now ...That's fifteen examiners that I have had personal contact with, plus a few others I've met here and there. Add to this the pics of Mr Ogilvie and friends on another website, I'd say that jumps the number up to around 25. Of those, I've seen 2 that would classify as physically fit. I'd say that provides SOME grounds for the comment I made. I've enjoyed the debate with you Ray, at least (unlike some of your counterparts) you try to remain professional for the most part and don't seem to resort to name-calling, slander, etc. Take care and good luck to you. Best, PK


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suethem Very Senior User Offline Posts: 196 Joined: Apr 29^th, 2003	Re: I had my poly! Reply #48 - Jul 21^st, 2003 at 10:14am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Ray, I think George got you there on the math. Evidently math and science are not your strong points! You might want to speak to the dean of your university and see if they can raise the standards! HA HA HA.


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Public Servant Very Senior User Offline Posts: 134 Joined: Jul 14^th, 2002	Re: I had my poly! Reply #49 - Jul 21^st, 2003 at 2:22pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	PK, Not that it matters, but I have no choice but to remain in top physical condition. Everyone where I work must maintain standards of fitness and pass tests of such on a regular basis. (As a fitness instructor, perhaps you should bring your people up to speed.) The looks and charm are genetic. My post was made tongue in cheek. My intent was to call attention to how your little generalizing ad hominem jabs made you look like some kind of short tempered new kid trying to "out-cool" everyone with your new job. If you are an eight year veteran, then stick to the substance of polygraph, instead of trying to insult your adversaries here. Such talk is not effective debate. I did not read anything else you said because you lost all credibility. You'll be much more effective in getting your points across if you avoid generalizations and personal attacks. The same goes on the job. You never talked anyone into cuffs by showering them with insults or stereo-typing and name-calling, did you? Regards. Look forward to some good debate. This one's predominantly between you and Ray and I see nothing of interest to jump in on at this point.


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Saidme Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 311 Joined: Jun 11^th, 2003	Re: I had my poly! Reply #50 - Jul 21^st, 2003 at 5:22pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Maybe PK should start a clock.


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Poly-Killer Senior User Offline "Knock, Knock!" Posts: 78 Location: Everywhere Joined: Apr 29^th, 2003 Gender:	Re: I had my poly! Reply #51 - Jul 21^st, 2003 at 7:03pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Public Servant, Funny...a guy (supposedly an "investigator") that jumps into a discussion, makes several incorrect assertions and then wants to speak of credibility. Enough about that. As for the so-called "jabs", if you are referring the "jab" about the physical conditioning of the examiners I have had contact with, I was merely speaking from my own observations. About any other jabs you may be referring to, all I can say is maybe you need to thicken the skin a little. I don't feel I have said anything overly harsh, and generally it's only a matter of "returning fire". Nothing more meant by it (usually) than a little "ribbing", if I offended...my apologies. By the way, thanks for those inspiring words of wisdom, those and $0.75 will get me a morning paper. Take care, PK


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Ray Senior User Offline Posts: 78 Joined: Jan 10^th, 2003	Re: I had my poly! Reply #52 - Jul 21^st, 2003 at 11:42pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	PK, I've enjoyed our discussion and look forward to doing it again. You have raised some valid points and I respect your opinion. Good luck and stay safe. George, As always you're quick to point out an error by an examiner. Thanks. I got a little too excited. I meant to say "over 80% correct". Suethem, I'll try to refrain from the personal insults you seem to enjoy so much. If you avoided the personal attacks your arguments would hold more weight. Quote: My test was ultimately found to be inconclusive. As stated elsewhere, later another agency asked me about DV and I passed with flying colors. How do you explain that? How do you pass "with flying colors"? I thought the poly wasn't valid. There is a difference between Inconclusive and SR/DI results. If you failed one test and passed another (regarding the same issue) I would at least understand your argument. You're way too sensitive. So an examiner questioned you...it's called an investigation. Also, I wanted to know what the specific relevant questions were on each of your tests. Was it a general crime question or specific to DV? Quote: You doubt that they were false positives now? Yes I do. I highly doubt it. Why do I feel this way? Years of interrogation experience. "Innocent" people act differently than "guilty" people do. I thought you knew that? I would like your opinion on the 11 SR/DI applicant tests I referred to in this thread. 9 of those (82%, Thanks George!) gave admissions to the relevant issue. The admissions range from concealed drug involvement to downloading kiddy porn (all disqualifing). I hope you would agree that those 9 individuals do not belong in LE. If polygraph was not around, how would we have discovered these issues in the applicants' background? Background Investigations, I don't care how intense, would not have discovered these issues. Give me a better solution. As for the 2 SR/DI tests without admissions, if they truly were false positives which I highly doubt, I would feel bad. You do tend to get a little dramatic when it comes to applicant false positives. It happens far less than you think in the real world setting. I'm not going to pretend that polygraph is perfect. I believe in the hands of a good examiner the polygraph is about 90% accurate. More than acceptable for screening/criminal exams. I believe there are good examiners and bad examiners. A bad examiner may very well get false positives. My hope is that there may one day be stricter controls on who is allowed to conduct polygraphs. I think that we're moving in that direction. I will say that I believe the great majority of LE/intel examiners are outstanding. A few bad apples can ruin it for everyone. As for the NAS study, I think it has some flaws (Lab vs. Field study) but I have certainly not dismissed it. I think it brings up some valid points. Still it's hard for me to go along with the findings when I see the results I get. Can you at least understand that? Oh and I do care about all of those things on your dramatic little list, save one. I don't care about Doug Williams. He's a shady guy looking to make a buck. I'm surprised you align yourself with him. In your latest post you made it seem as though examiners are heartless thugs. I guess that is the strategy promoted on this website. I don't get it though. Most examiners are skilled interrogators prior to getting into the field of polygraph. Why do the antipoly folks always feel that it is necessary to resort to personal attacks? Remember you're trying to get into our field-LE. We may work together someday. I love good discussion but your attitude toward polygraph should not influence your opinion toward individual examiners that you know nothing about. Why is everyone on here so hostile??


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Saidme Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 311 Joined: Jun 11^th, 2003	Re: I had my poly! Reply #53 - Jul 22^nd, 2003 at 12:33am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Can't we all just get along!


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Public Servant Very Senior User Offline Posts: 134 Joined: Jul 14^th, 2002	Re: I had my poly! Reply #54 - Jul 22^nd, 2003 at 3:30pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	PK, Wow, Killer, you just proved my accusations to be true by more little insults and insinuations that you are tough and I am weak. As you seek to hurt me in this pathetic way, you only hurt your own credibility. Oh, and be sure to spend that $.75 on a good respectable paper, not a tabloid or comic book. I wouldn't my advice to go completely without benefit. Regards!


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Poly-Killer Senior User Offline "Knock, Knock!" Posts: 78 Location: Everywhere Joined: Apr 29^th, 2003 Gender:	Re: I had my poly! Reply #55 - Jul 22^nd, 2003 at 9:05pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Quote: PK, Wow, Killer, you just proved my accusations to be true by more little insults and insinuations that you are tough and I am weak. As you seek to hurt me in this pathetic way, you only hurt your own credibility. Oh, and be sure to spend that $.75 on a good respectable paper, not a tabloid or comic book. I wouldn't my advice to go completely without benefit. Regards! Public Servant, Sheeesh, what did I say this time? What was it that inferred I believe I am strong and you are weak? Perhaps this is stemming from your own insecurity. ??? How's this... Good afternoon, Public Servant, I hope you are having a wonderful day! I hope your day in the office wasn't too stressful. Administering all those voodoo...uhhh...I mean POLYGRAPH tests can be quite taxing. Well, take care...chat soon! That wasn't too harsh for you, was it? Good grief! PK


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suethem Very Senior User Offline Posts: 196 Joined: Apr 29^th, 2003	Re: I had my poly! Reply #56 - Jul 23^rd, 2003 at 8:22am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Ray, I can't recall if both my DV questions were Relevant or general. "passing with flying colors" was what a polygrapher said. In your example (9 out of 11) you say you got 82% right. In Doug Williams's sting in NYC, 100% of polygraphers got it wrong. 100% of polygraph examiners picked innocent people as guilty ( and they all pick different guilty subjects). I am curious why you think Doug Williams is shady? Do you know something we don't? There are plenty of books on the market instructing people how to pass polygraphs- some are written by polygraphers- are those authors shady too? Heartless thugs- I just find it difficult to hear denials about false positives. They happen but you never hear polygraphers talk about them with any real regret. Innocent people act differently than guilty people- yes sometimes- My joke about your math and science skills was just a ribbing- I did not mean to offend you. I have been corrected on this site before and rightly so. I have years of LE experience so its getting back in (which I have) not just in. We disagree about polygraphy-- I'll just leave it at that


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Public Servant Very Senior User Offline Posts: 134 Joined: Jul 14^th, 2002	Re: I had my poly! Reply #57 - Jul 24^th, 2003 at 4:18am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	PK, I am neither insecure nor offended by your taunts. My point was that if you lose the personal attacks, generalizations, and tough guy posturing, it would be easier to debate the substance of the issues.


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Public Servant Very Senior User Offline Posts: 134 Joined: Jul 14^th, 2002	Re: I had my poly! Reply #58 - Jul 24^th, 2003 at 4:43am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Suethem, Doug Williams claims to have run thousands of polygraphs when he was a police officer. Now he says it is the scourge of society (paraphrase not quote). If he really spent years, running thousands of tests, why did he suddenly come to the conclusion that it was wrong. Was he a little slow on the uptake, and it took thousands of tests,and years,to come up with a conclusion about whether his chosen professio was good or evil? Or was he morally flawed all that time he was an officer, and it took him years to finally see the light? My thoughts are that he got tired of working his butt off for a police officer's pay and thought he could make more through entrepeneurship on the other side. There wasn't much competition in the market at the time. He charges $40 or $50 for his book (I believe, haven't been to his site lately) while George and Gino provide similar info for free. But regardless of his motives, anyone on either side of the issue would have to question Doug's character. Either he was willingly doing something he believed wrong, in high volume over a significant period of his life; or he turned on a system he believed in for the all-mighty buck. Whether he is a sell-out or a reformed sinner depends on your perspective of the issue of polygraph. I've seen some posts here alleged to have been Doug Williams (I assume they weren't the football star, nor the guy who shot up his co-workers in AL -- when I first saw the name on the news, I thought it might be the stinger himself). So if you're reading this Doug, feel free to defend yourself, or correct anything where you feel I am in error.


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Saidme Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 311 Joined: Jun 11^th, 2003	Re: I had my poly! Reply #59 - Jul 24^th, 2003 at 4:49am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Public Servant I know Doug Williams and you're no Doug Williams (aren't you glad).


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