Normal Topic What you teach DON'T WORK! (Read 6651 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box screwed
Guest


What you teach DON'T WORK!
May 21st, 2002 at 8:59pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
This website was of NO Help!

Boy, am I SCREWED and I do not understand why!  I downloaded and read “The Lie Behind the Lie Detector”, I bought Mr. Williams’ book for almost fifty bucks.  I practiced “countermeasures” until my butt hurt.  I said and did everything in the polygraph test you guys told me to do, and still I FAILED.  Not only did I fail, but the examiner laughed out loud as he showed me EACH and EVERY place I tried to create reactions to the “controls”.  Well, still following YOUR ADVICE, I denied trying to affect the test and even denied ever accessing this website (again, per your advice).  Then the polygrapher gave me a “special test.”  He wrote down six names on a piece of paper.  Five of the names I did not recognize.  The sixth one was  “George Maschke.”  Of course I denied knowing who any of the names belonged to.  Well, obviously, just like I was lying on the original test, I knew I was lying when he asked, “Have you ever heard of George Maschke?”  He showed me the charts and there was a HUGE reaction every time that name was mentioned.  Then he ran more tests using the name “Gino Scalabrini” mixed in with five others.  Again, there were HUGE reactions to that name.  Of course, there was virtually no reaction to any of the other names on either of the exams.  YOU NEVER TOLD ME ABOUT THIS TEST!  What could I do?  The examiner kept looking at me that that stupid knowing grin and I felt like the four year old who got caught in mama’s cookie jar!  I told him everything.  Now my probation officer knows I have had more contact with my “victim” (Long story, but the short of it was that she was 13 and seduced me).  Now I am probably going back to JAIL!  Thanks for NOTHING!!!!

Screwed….     Cry          
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6210
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: What you teach DON'T WORK!
Reply #1 - May 21st, 2002 at 9:52pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The "special test" you describe is a "peak of tension" or "guilty knowledge" test. You'll find it described toward the end of Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

If you made any damaging admissions, you didn't follow the most basic advice we provide in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. I have to admit that I'm skeptical as to whether your post is genuine or a disinformational fabrication by a polygraph proponent. (We've had such a post recently: see the message thread Reformed and Grateful.)

Feel free to e-mail me (maschke@antipolygraph.org) if you would like to discuss this matter privately.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6210
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: What you teach DON'T WORK!
Reply #2 - May 21st, 2002 at 10:12pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
"Screwed" describes the use of a peak of tension test including my and Gino Scalabrini's names as a sort of counter-countermeasure (that is, to determine whether the subject has knowledge of countermeasures).

Such a technique is described in retired CIA polygrapher John F. Sullivan's new book, Of Spies and Lies: A CIA Lie Detector Remembers (University of Kansas Press, 2002). Sullivan writes at p. 235:

Quote:
As a senior examiner, I was given the opportunity to do some very good tests. In 1979, I did what I think was my best test. I caught an Eastern European double agent who had been working for the Federal Bureau of Investigation for five years. The agent was due to return to Czechoslovakia, and the FBI asked us if we wanted to take him over. The Agency was willing to take him, but he had to be polygraphed first.

During my tour with the [U.S. Army's] 513th Military Intelligence Group in Germany from January 1965 until July 1967, one of our polygraph examiners, S. Sgt. Glen Rohrer, defected to Czechoslovakia. While investigating his defection, we learned that the Czechs ran a polygraph countermeasures program and that the head of the program was a Dr. Miroslav Dufek. Going on the assumption that if an agent were a Czech intelligence officer he would probably know or at least recognize Dufek's name, I constructed a test in which I asked the agent if he knew or had any knowledge of a Dr. Miroslav Dufek or six other doctors whose names I had taken from a Prague telephone book. When I pretested the questions with the agent, he denied recognizing or having knowledge of the men whose names I used on the test. He also denied any contact with Czech intelligence before or since coming to the United States. The only name to which he reacted on the test was Dufek's. I confronted him, and after about an hour, he said, "I think Dufek debriefs diplomats when they return from overseas."

Based on his pretest denial of any contact whatsoever with Czech intelligence, this was information he should not have known. At that point, I brought the FBI agent and our case officer, Aldrich Ames, to the room where I was conducting the test and, without any hesitation, said, "This guy is a Czech Intel officer and has reported to them on his contacts with the Bureau."

The agent shrugged his shoulders and said, "Not me." I could not get him to confess, and the session was terminated.


Sullivan goes on to write that a week later, "the FBI called to let [him] know that it had determined that the agent [he] had tested was a Czech intelligence officer." However, Sullivan does not reveal how the FBI determined this to be so.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box beech trees
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 593
Joined: Jun 22nd, 2001
Gender: Male
Re: What you teach DON'T WORK!
Reply #3 - May 22nd, 2002 at 12:10am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bwoop bwoop. . . . BS-o-meter off the scales with this one. The poster portrays polygraph interrogators in such a shining light of omniscience, while portraying himself as of course the lowest of the low, a pedophile, that I am highly suspicious, highly suspicious, of the veracity here.

When done correctly, augmented reactions to Control Questions are indistinguishable from 'genuine' responses. As well, abandoning the use of countermeasures for the POT, in which you reacted strongly to George's name, would also doom one to failure. You are incorrect when you write "YOU NEVER TOLD ME ABOUT THIS TEST!" Page 99 of The Lie Behind The Lie Detector describes POT tests and how to deal with them. Did you read it?

What reactions did your polygraph interrogator point out as countermeasures?

Who is your Probation Officer? I find it odd that in your assertions you call him a Probation, not Parole Officer, yet you say you are 'going back to jail'. Parolees, not Probationees, return to jail-- Probationees never go to jail.

This post stinks. Come on, pro-poly-money-grubbing Fourth-Fifth-and-Tenth-Amendment-trampling snakeoil salesmen, you can do better!
  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box G Scalabr
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 358
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: What you teach DON'T WORK!
Reply #4 - May 22nd, 2002 at 8:50am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
practiced “countermeasures” until my butt hurt.


If you were following our directions (that the effort for this countermeasure be submaximal), I doubt that you caused yourself pain practicing countermeasures. Perhaps you irritated that area in some other way.

As George pointed out, since you claim to have 'fessed up to using countermeasures, you are apparently unwilling or incapable of following our advice. 

Like the others, I doubt the veracity of your claims as a whole.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box deputy bear (Guest)
Guest


Re: What you teach DON'T WORK!
Reply #5 - May 23rd, 2002 at 9:12am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. I was reading the post and thought immediately that this was someone trying to discredit the site. I like the little story "Now my probation officer knows I have had more contact with my “victim” (Long story, but the short of it was that she was 13 and seduced me). I would say good, let your sorry ass go to jail, sorry prison, but I simply do not believe this is a valid post. 
Nice try screwed, but if your post were true, you would be the only person to fail after studying and practicing as much as you claim. If you still want to assert your claim, then I can see why a 13 year old could "take advantage" of you. You should have entered a plea of diminished capacity.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box eisenmann372002
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 20
Joined: May 14th, 2002
Re: What you teach DON'T WORK!
Reply #6 - May 23rd, 2002 at 10:06am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I am a tremendous fan of dry, subtle, and/or sarcastic humor. I was just compelled to point out two very amusing things from two separate posts. By restating them here, I know it brings the humor "down" a little bit, since the subtlety was wonderful in the first place, but these were really, really funny to me:

"Screwed" wrote: "I practiced “countermeasures” until my butt hurt."   

To which Gino replied:

If you were following our directions (that the effort for this countermeasure be submaximal), I doubt that you caused yourself pain practicing countermeasures. Perhaps you irritated that area in some other way.

And in response to "Screwed"'s claim, deputy bear wrote:

"If you still want to assert your claim, then I can see why a 13 year old could "take advantage" of you. You should have entered a plea of diminished capacity."

Ah, that's good comedy.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box beech trees
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 593
Joined: Jun 22nd, 2001
Gender: Male
Re: What you teach DON'T WORK!
Reply #7 - May 23rd, 2002 at 10:57am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Actually, the entire plea is:

Not guilty, by reason of diminished capacity, brought about by an overdose of Rogaine

Grin
  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
What you teach DON'T WORK!

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X