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Topic Summary - Displaying 19 post(s).
Posted by: Dan Mangan
Posted on: Sep 20th, 2017 at 1:00pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Aunty Agony wrote on Sep 20th, 2017 at 11:56am:
Are you trying to out GuestGhost?


Of course not, Aunty. I am shocked, appalled and dismayed that you would even suggest such a thing.
Posted by: Aunty Agony
Posted on: Sep 20th, 2017 at 11:56am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Dan Mangan wrote on Sep 20th, 2017 at 2:00am:
Prove me wrong


Are you trying to out GuestGhost?
Posted by: Dan Mangan
Posted on: Sep 20th, 2017 at 2:00am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
GuestGhost, I pegged you as a faker because you failed to convey your polygraph experiences with any realism.

I stand by my original assessment.

Prove me wrong and I'll donate $500 to a legitimate charity of your choice.
Posted by: GuestGhost
Posted on: Sep 19th, 2017 at 10:17pm
  Mark & Quote
Dan Mangan wrote on Sep 17th, 2017 at 12:29pm:
Aunty Agony wrote on Sep 17th, 2017 at 5:07am:
Dan Mangan wrote Today at 2:46am:
Insulted? No, Aunty, that faker was likely found out.
Possibly. But you offer no evidence for this.

Dan Mangan wrote Today at 2:46am:
GuestGhost's account was, in my professional opinion, pure mental masturbation.
Possibly. But you offer no evidence or convincing argument for this.



Aunty, should GuestGhost return and post clear and compelling evidence that contradicts my opinions -- beginning by answering the questions I posted earlier -- I will admit my rush to judgment and sincerely apologize.


Mr. Mangan,

My goal in posting was not for you to believe or not believe me. I wasn't looking for pats on the back or validation. It is unlikely but sure possible that if I go into further detail, I could reveal something that would identify me.

In the meantime maybe we can be constructive. Please discuss which one(s) of my countermeasure and preparation descriptions are bad or wrong and why you think I am a plant or faker.

Your own website says the polygraph can be beaten and you even link to this site. This site and TLBTLD was where I learned everything I used. Yet I say that and you immediately call me a liar.

Anyway I guess we won't convince each other but that's what I've got to say.
Posted by: Doug Williams
Posted on: Sep 18th, 2017 at 4:21pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Dan Mangan wrote on Sep 17th, 2017 at 2:46am:
That said, polygraph countermeasure victories are probably at record levels these days -- thanks to the government's most public and vigorous prosecution of Doug Williams.

Beating a polygraph "test" is relatively easy, once you know the trick.

To believe otherwise is abject denial.


Well said Dan it should be noted that they prosecuted me for doing something that they had previously said was impossible for me to do - teach someone how to "beat" the "lie detector".  And, I have always maintained that if I can teach a person to "beat" it, that proves the polygraph is absolutely worthless as a "lie detector".
Posted by: Dan Mangan
Posted on: Sep 17th, 2017 at 12:29pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Aunty Agony wrote on Sep 17th, 2017 at 5:07am:
Dan Mangan wrote Today at 2:46am:
Insulted? No, Aunty, that faker was likely found out.
Possibly. But you offer no evidence for this.

Dan Mangan wrote Today at 2:46am:
GuestGhost's account was, in my professional opinion, pure mental masturbation.
Possibly. But you offer no evidence or convincing argument for this.



Aunty, should GuestGhost return and post clear and compelling evidence that contradicts my opinions -- beginning by answering the questions I posted earlier -- I will admit my rush to judgment and sincerely apologize.
Posted by: Aunty Agony
Posted on: Sep 17th, 2017 at 5:07am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Dan Mangan wrote on Sep 17th, 2017 at 2:46am:
Insulted? No, Aunty, that faker was likely found out.

Possibly. But you offer no evidence for this.

Dan Mangan wrote on Sep 17th, 2017 at 2:46am:
GuestGhost's account was, in my professional opinion, pure mental masturbation.

Possibly. But you offer no evidence or convincing argument for this.
Posted by: Dan Mangan
Posted on: Sep 17th, 2017 at 2:46am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Insulted? No, Aunty, that faker was likely found out.

GuestGhost's account was, in my professional opinion, pure mental masturbation.

That said, polygraph countermeasure victories are probably at record levels these days -- thanks to the government's most public and vigorous prosecution of Doug Williams.

Beating a polygraph "test" is relatively easy, once you know the trick.

To believe otherwise is abject denial.
Posted by: Aunty Agony
Posted on: Sep 17th, 2017 at 2:18am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
pailryder wrote on Sep 16th, 2017 at 2:38pm:
Seems you spooked GuestGhost.

I think "insulted" is much more accurate than "spooked".  If I ever submitted a post like GuestGhost's and all I got was a reaction like Dan's, I would simply not bother with the site any more, much less enter into a productive correspondence.
Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: Sep 16th, 2017 at 2:38pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Dan

Seems you spooked GuestGhost. 

Posted by: Dan Mangan
Posted on: Sep 14th, 2017 at 12:23am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Quote:
And at the end of the test, the polygrapher stood up, and matter-of-factly told me I had passed.



Speaking as a polygraph operator with over 13 years of experience, this highly unlikely scenario strikes me as pure fiction.

Maybe GuestGhost will prove me wrong.

ROTFLMAO
Posted by: Dan Mangan
Posted on: Sep 12th, 2017 at 6:23pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
GG, how did the examiners introduce the CQs to you during their respective pre-test portions of each polygraph? Tell us what the examiners said and how they described the role of the CQs vis-a-vis the RQs.

Describe the stimulation tests used for the two different polygraphs, and how they differed between examiners.

How many charts were used for each exam?

Did the examiners score manually or use an algorithm?

Posted by: GuestGhost
Posted on: Sep 12th, 2017 at 5:34pm
  Mark & Quote
Mr. Mangan, I am not sure what part of my post seems to you to be a troll/plant/fake. I would be interested if you could point out where my descriptions and tactics differ from what TLBTLD recommends.

I simply wished to share my experience, and let people know that TLBTLD is excellent. I also wanted people to know that countermeasures aren't easy, and take practice.

I will not be posting the control questions, out of an abundance of caution. If that causes you to not believe me then I guess I will just have to be ok with that.

A few notes, though:

- These tests were single/very related issue tests. Again, there are only so many formats for such tests, and with good research, literature and information on those formats can be found. Being able to memorize those formats, and being right about the formats made the tests much easier. If I did not know what the next type of question would be, I donnot know if I could have properly geared myself mentally for countermeasures or relaxation. Part of my confidence and abilities to pass these tests came from knowing exactly what was coming when.

If this had been an FBI employment type test, I donnot know if this type of preparation would have worked, nor would I have been as confident, as those are not single issue tests.

- I cannot say enough about how important my practice was. Although it may be extremely difficult to detect some physical countermeasures, it seems actually impossible to detect mental ones. Being able to produce physical reactions based solely on mental stimulus was not easy but it was essential.

- Aunty, I understand your disappointment. Of course I cannot go further into detail and certainly there is no way to verify this, but I had no "nefarious purposes" in the lies I had to tell.
Posted by: Dan Mangan
Posted on: Sep 12th, 2017 at 1:23pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
George W. Maschke wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 5:16am:
GuestGhost does not come across as a troll, plant, or faker to me. If his/her statement is indeed sincere, I think that for privacy reasons, it would be unwise for him/her to divulge the relevant questions asked.


To me, GuestGhost's post lacks a certain something -- it just doesn't ring true. Maybe GG will post the CQs that were allegedly asked in this account of multiple mandatory polygraphs taking place over a 30-day period.
Posted by: Aunty Agony
Posted on: Sep 12th, 2017 at 12:49pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Quote:
...I had to lie on one of them.

This make Aunty sad. It is an example of how a socially valuable tool or technique can also be used for nefarious purposes.
Posted by: Aunty Agony
Posted on: Sep 12th, 2017 at 12:44pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Quote:
I taught myself to look forward to relevant questions, because every time I got one, I would be seeing my friend again.

Brilliant.

This is a good lesson about what to select for your calming scenario -- not just something peaceful and unstressed, but something that you really wish you could do.
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Sep 12th, 2017 at 5:16am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Dan Mangan wrote on Sep 12th, 2017 at 12:21am:
GuestGhost, you definitely come across as a troll/plant/faker.

Here's your chance to prove me wrong.

To the best of your memory, what were the questions -- respectively speaking -- for tests one and two?


GuestGhost does not come across as a troll, plant, or faker to me. If his/her statement is indeed sincere, I think that for privacy reasons, it would be unwise for him/her to divulge the relevant questions asked.
Posted by: Dan Mangan
Posted on: Sep 12th, 2017 at 12:21am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
GuestGhost, you definitely come across as a troll/plant/faker.

Here's your chance to prove me wrong.

To the best of your memory, what were the questions -- respectively speaking -- for tests one and two?
Posted by: GuestGhost
Posted on: Sep 11th, 2017 at 10:41pm
  Mark & Quote
Hello,

I am writing with details on several polygraphs that I have passed in the last 30 days or so. I will not reveal any information that might identify me.

The polygraphs were mandatory. Refusing to take them was not an option.

I beat them. And I say "beat," because I had to lie on one of them. Here's how I did it.

- I read "TLBTLD" over and over again, especially chapters 3 and 4. The real breakthrough I had (and which I don't think the book or this community stresses enough) was really realizing that the polygraph is not a "lie detector." It is a reaction detector. In other words, if you're hooked up and they ask you "Was George Washington America's first President?" the machine will detect a reaction, if you give one. Reading TLBTLD over and over helped me understand that to pass, one must have greater detected reactions on "control / comparison" questions than to "relevant" questions. I know this is elementary knowledge, but it's probably the single most important thing to understand.

- I was lucky enough to have advance notice of the polygraphs, so I practiced. I had a reasonable guess as to the format of the test (order of questions in particular). These were single-issue / related-issue tests. I will call them single-issue tests throughout this post, for ease of reading. There are a number of formats for such tests. I studied the more popular formats and read the literature on them extensively. That literature included how questions are formulated, what order questions will come, etc. So I practiced several versions, with a timer.

- I chose to focus on mental countermeasures. I don't know what activity sensors can and can't detect, but in my own practice sessions, tongue-biting and the like just didn't seem to work. In addition, trying to employ physical pain countermeasures took away part of my focus. Plus, there is always a chance, however slight, that physical measures can be noticed. Mental countermeasures are not noticed.

- I spent a great deal of time training my body to generate an adrenaline rush. Of course, I planned to use this rush every time I received a control question. This was not easy! Practice made perfect. It's a lot harder to scare yourself on command than you might think - especially when you're already amped up in the polygraph chair. You have to be able to crank it up on command. I spent hours training my body to respond. I took a very specific image in my mind - a first-person view of falling off a tall building, seeing the ground rush up at me, only for the ground to open up and reveal a bed of horrible metal spikes which impaled me - I took that image as my "trigger" image. I imagined the fall, the terror, and the horrific death from the spikes. It worked. My hands would get clammy, my heart would race, my breathing would change.

- As mentioned, I did not use physical countermeasures at all. That said, there are certainly physical things I found useful, in my practice sessions. I don't really know how to describe this, but I found that while visualizing the gruesome fall above, it worked even better if I also tried to "push" my skull out of its skin. I didn't move my head or strain my neck at all - I checked in the mirror and I taped myself to make sure. But that's the best I can describe - while holding perfectly still, I tried to push my head bones forward. For whatever reason, this amplified the physical feedback from my mental countermeasure.

- I knew I would need to calm down and produce few to no reactions on relevant questions. And old friend helped. To calm down, I pictured myself in a sunny backyard with my old friend. I created dialogue for us, running dialogue that would last 15-20 seconds. This is someone I haven't seen in a long time and miss a lot. I was happy to see them. They helped calm me down. I taught myself to look forward to relevant questions, because every time I got one, I would be seeing my friend again. I wouldn't be scared, I would be happy.

- I practiced my breathing pattern for the test. In, out, in, out. I visualized a small, bright ball, travelling out from my mouth on my exhale, around in a small circle, and then back into my mouth on my inhale. Pleasing, calm, repettitive, easy. I practiced this breathing in the shower, in the car, in bed, at work, everywhere, until it became second nature. Once again, I followed TLBTLD, making sure I had about 15-30 respirations a minute, and that each one was more shallow than normal.

TEST #1
Again, relying on TLBTLD, I arrived early, dressed neatly. I was polite and friendly with the polygrapher. We discussed the "single issue" I was there to be tested on. The tester was actually a genuinely friendly person. I understood that he was not there to be my friend, but it helped create a pleasant atmosphere. He explained the format of the test, and quite to my delight, it was in fact one of the formats I had practiced! Internally, I breathed a huge sigh of relief, as I now knew exactly when I would get a control question or a relevant question.

In addition, this particular format uses control/comparison questions that are of similar nature (similar type of inquiry) to the relevant questions. Whether my good interactions with the polygrapher helped or not, he designed control questions that I actually sort feared! He was very good about discouraging admissions to these questions, and I knew enough not to clarify much, so the end result was that I wound up with a set of controls that I would genuinely be lying to. Again, I have no idea if my respectful and professional demeanor led the guy to craft "easier" questions - all I know is that it didn't hurt.

It also helped that this test's relevant questions were ones that I was actually telling (almost all of) the truth on. So this was, in essence, a "practice run." I was still nervous, because failure would bring bad things.

As soon as the straps went on, I went into the breathing mode I had practiced. No problem. The test began. I knew the order of the questions. I felt confident. There were no surprises. But...I was so nervous! My heart was racing. I had to focus on my breathing to keep it measured. The first control question was coming. I cleared my mind. It was asked. I pictured myself falling, horribly. I pushed at my skull. I could feel my hands moisten. I could feel my heart speed up, even faster than it was. It was working! I continued my reactions for several seconds, and then I knew I had to calm down.

I went to the backyard with my old friend. We talked. It was sunny. It was peaceful. I interrupted our conversation to briefly answer "no" to the relevant question. Did my heart skip? Did my breath catch? Don't worry about it, I told myself - your friend is waiting.

I passed the test. Passed easily. I was excited. My system worked! But next would come the real challenge.

TEST #2
Despite my success last time, this one scared me. On this one, it wouldn't be just a little tiny or semantic lie on the relevant questions. On this one, I would have to lie, through and through.

I was much more nervous this time. My hands shook as I drove. My heart was already racing. Nevertheless, I arrived early, and was outwardly calm. This polygrapher was different. Not nearly as friendly. However, he said he'd looked over my charts from last time. I didn't know what to make of this, but the last person passed me without a second thought, so I figured that was good.

I was so nervous, but I remembered that I'd spent hours upon hours upon hours training for this. The test would be in the same format. I was as ready as I could possibly be.

I realized that my heart was racing, but what was also important to realize was that it's ok if it raced - so long as it raced more on the control questions! So here we go again. I still felt much more nervous. The first time I had mostly told the truth. This time, I was not. Not even close. But I again pictured my horrible fall, and I again had time to sit and chat with my long-gone friend. I had to trust my prep.

And at the end of the test, the polygrapher stood up, and matter-of-factly told me I had passed.

So. This stuff works. I am living proof. But like anything in life, it takes practice, practice, practice. If I'd tried to prep the night before, I wouldn't be writing this. Only because I focused myself both on understanding what the box actually does, and how to manipulate the box, am I here talking to you.

If you take one thing away from this, take that. It's a reaction detector. Nothing more, nothing less. So master your reactions (and I mean MASTER them), and you can pass.

Good luck.
 
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