yep pay $ 40.00 bucks just for the fun of it....and would hope it works...lol

F+, you're correct.  Whether they're using FFT, IFT or DFT, the bottom line is it's pretty easy to look at and for additional 'stress' components.  I also think they're susceptible to high Signal to Noise, another interesting alternative.

Question to future CVSA subjects:  Would you pay $40 for small device that lets you control the output of a CVSA?
(need ~ 100 interested parties, or lower price for more units)
RR

Posted by: False +
   
             I recently had occasion to observe a CVSA operator conduct an examination and I was able to view the screen of the CVSA laptop.

The CVSA is an overpriced prop for interrogations. To my knowledge, there is no peer-reviewed research available regarding CVSA, and the only studies purporting to support its validity as a lie detector come from the manufacturer.

The best source I could refer you to is David T. Lykken's book, A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector (2nd ed., 1998). Chapter 11 deals with voice stress analysis.

On the Internet, you'll find details of some studies conducted by the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute on the following website:

http://www.voicestress.com 

It's amusing that the operator of the above site promotes the competing pseudoscience of polygraphy.

I'd be interested to hear how your presentation goes!

My email is dardedar@aol.com

I am the founder of a small, vocal, Freethinker/skeptical group here in the South and our local police station (city population 55,000), have purchased one or more of these CVSA programs. From what I have seen so far it appears to be  nonsense. I am researching an article for our local paper and for a lecture I am giving this weekend. I hope to interview the police about the device, perhaps tomorrow. I need some really good, the best, info roasting this stuff so I can do a good job of drawing attention to this waste of money.
   I emailed the "National Center for Truth Verification" who I think they bought them from ($10,000 a pop plus $1,600 per person per week for training). I asked them for any scientific, peer-reviewed evidence that their devices work, and asked them what they claim for accuracy. They have not responded. Our city is having a bit of a budget crisis and I am a little pissed that all this money has been spent on this nonsense.
   Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Darrel

ph. 479-442-6738

Rescue_Ranger,

I recently had occasion to observe a CVSA operator conduct an examination and I was able to view the screen of the CVSA laptop.

After each answer given, a graph appeared that bore many similar features to a frequency-domain representation of a voice signal. Is it simply an FFT (or FFT plus some added filtering) of the voice signal? I ask because you made reference to an HP Spectrum Analyzer in your post, so I assume you must have some signal analysis background (as do I).

If the backbone of CVSA is indeed the FFT, the CVSA industry is even more back-handed that the polygraph industry. It would then mean that a truthful "yes" or "no" is assumed to appear more sinusoidal, like a "pure tone", and not have any additional frequency components. There's absolutely no reason at all to believe that a truthful response couldn't have these additional components. WHAT A SHAM ALL THIS IS!!!!

Quote:



We have no CVSA unit, but we're playing with an HP 4395 Spectrum Analyzer and PC DSP card, and see clear artifacts for stressed and unstressed subjects saying Yes and No.  We've digitally recorded a person artifically stressed saying "Yes" and "No", and that same person relaxed saying the same thing.  Using a PC for playback and 4 separate keys, we can play back any of the 4 answers at will.  There's no reason we can't put it in a key fob (car door opener sized audio player) and sell them.   

The 4395 can also see the higher frequencies / stress elements over a regular telephone circuit.  As long as you're doing this over the telephone, no one is going to know whether it's you or the key fob answering.  We can also get the DSP card to output just the higher frequencies, or to provide a minimum noise level of the higher frequencies to provide a lower S/N for CVSA machines. There's also no reason we can't add the higher frequencies in a key fob to activate at will.


RR

yes I am a god! hahahah

URL

Yes your right I passed the CVSA test! Thanks for all your info. You guys are right, this site works  Maybe i'm not confident with myself, but I bet a lot of people fail the CVSA and the background detective fails you because of your background not the CVSA to not have a lawsuit. Heres what did help for the CVSA::

1) be polite and confident
2) never say anything negative
3) after you take the test relax and read a newspaper or something, I bet they watch your demeanor after the test.
4) bottom line, if the examiner does not like you you fail. End of story. 
5) never disagree with the examiner they are gods when you are in there. If she asks you to bark like a dog, then you bark like a dog. 
6) The examiner kept talking about her stamp collection. So I was a instant stamp collector.

John,

In both CVSA and polygraph "tests," a post-test interrogation is standard procedure if the examiner believes that the subject has answered the relevant questions deceptively. The absence of a post-test interrogation in your case is a good indication that you passed your CVSA "test."

Does the CVSA have a post-test interrigation like the polygraph? I had a CVSA a few weeks ago and they was no post-test.

thanks!

Califmike,

I was actually unaware of this fact.  Thank you for pointing this out.  At the bottom of the article, Palmatier is described as a "polygraph researcher," but not as a practicing examiner.  I wouldn't be surprised if this was left out on purpose (to obscure the apparent conflict of interest).

I suppose I was fooled by the absence of the usual rhetoric touting the superiority of polygraphy.

???  Gino, Are you aware that the article, "CVSA:  Modern Technological Invention or 'The Emperor's New Clothes'?", is written by a polygraph examiner?

http://www.polygraphplace.com/docs/florida.htm

Quote:


Nevertheless, the information is useful and helps build confidence for those facing a CVSA exam.

fred wrote on Jul 26^th, 2001 at 6:45pm:


Fred,

This situation has so much conflict of interest, I concur with Gino. In addition to securing legal assistance, you also need to contact the director's office IMMEDIATELY!. Do you have documentation to back your statements? You already have said your "jacket" is clean after 10 years on the job.

If there are fellow officers to collaborate what is occurring you need to obtain written statements from them. Remember that documentation goes a long way in defending yourself.

Good Luck

Fred F.

Quote:


Fred, you will want to check out the following article from the American Bar Association's General Practice, Solo, and Small Firm Section Magazine.

CVSA:  Modern Technological Invention or "The Emperor's New Clothes"?

As this article and Fred F point out, CVSA has never shown better than coin-flip accuracy in any study other than the ones done by the manufacturer of the device.  Any reliance on CVSA results is simply foolish. End of story.

You should contact an attorney in your area knowledgeable in labor law and consider taking legal action against this department.

The internal affairs are the very people on the witch hunt of me. They are called the inspector generals office. The female captain I wrote about is a former inspector who dated the inspector on my case. He is the one who is substantiating the allegations against me based on CVSA tests. He is also pressuring witnesses according to those who have been interviewed by him. If you have any information on studies questioning the validity of these tests, please advise.

fred wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2001 at 3:26pm:


Fred,

You stated that you have already e-mailed the head of your agency. Did you get a reply?  You need to contact this person again and if possible, arrange to meet with them or one of their staff members.

You are being systemically made a disgruntled, problematic employee by your ex, the Captain. However, you did state that you had no "write-ups" in your file prior to you breaking it off with your friend. If all documentation on record shows you have no unfavorable problems, this needs to be brought to the attention of the administrative personnel that run the facility you work at and at the Chiefs office.

The CVSA is being used to corroborate the false statements being made against you. These people are really trying to retaliate against you and get severe disciplinary action against you  If you have noticed in other posts, the only evidence of the CVSA being "accurate" is the testing done by the MANUFACTURER!  Were these other incidents witnessed by other officers?

Have you  considered going to the Internal Affairs people in your agency? If what you are saying here is true, they will investigate and this may help clear you.

Good Luck

Fred F.  

I need some help. I have been with the department of corrections in my state for over 10 years with no problems until recently. An ex-inspector made Captain and she and I went out together a couple of times. I was interested in someone else and after she found out she began retaliating against me. I suddenly found myself the subject of numerous investigations by her former colleagues ( inspectors ) for things that that others weren't investigated for. This occured after I filed a complaint against her for putting toothpaste on my car. A inspector she then started going out with was assigned to one of my cases. He encouraged a nurse who had an ax to grind to take a CVSA test after she cooberated an inmate's allegation that i beat and choked him. Not surprisingly, he informed me in a taunting manner that "she passed with flying colors." Unbeknownst to him, a videotape of the entire incident was in evidence somewhere else and was produced after I e-mailed the head of corrections in our state explaining this situation. The video totally refuted the allegations and it was clear i had done nothing wrong. How did she pass this test then? Now, this same inspector had three disgruntled employees take CVSA test's saying I cursed them. Guess what?!!! They passed according to his excited proclamation. I now face discipline because of the administrative rules allowing allegations to be substantiated due to results of a CVSA. I need help.

Quote:


Rose, please specifically explain exactly what you believe that I am "dead wrong" about....

"Besides another girl at work told me that her answers came out all truthful even on controlled lie questions"

Rose, I advise you to go do some research and you would see the logical fallacy in your statement.  A "control question" is a question that someone lies on.  In other words, the polygraph examiner won't continue the test until he is sure you lied on the control question. He does this to compare your “lied” reaction to that of your “truthful” reaction on the relevant questions. If you did "truthfully" answer the control question then you would fail or get "inconclusive" results at best.  Go research, than come back to your conclusion then.

Please see my new thread about my CVSA experience. I am sorry but Gino is dead wrong.  Besides another girl at work told me that her answers came out all truthful even on controlled lie questions and she is about the most unsophisticated, unmanipulative people in the world, either that or according to a CVSA examiner, she is the world's most dangerous psychopath!  Rose

Lee,

CVSA (like polygraph "testing") is a fraud. I think you should seek a consultation with an attorney experienced in Florida labor law regarding your situation. You might also consider contacting local reporters and taking your story public. In addition, feel free to post details of your case in a new message thread in this forum, if you feel comfortable doing so.

Regarding "George's" advice that you take a polygraph "test," I suggest that you download and read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector before you submit to yet another pseudoscientific lie detector "test."

Forget about that CVSA stuff.  Contact the APA and find a polygraph examiner in your area immediately.  Take a polygraph examination to verify your truthful answers.

I Took a CVSA on Thursday, Because a Superior Threatened Me about a month ago. I was told that these are almost 100% accurate. I know what was said to me in that office and I did NOT Lie. Yet The Proctor Said The "Cold Call" was that I showed Deceit?? WTF?. Now what?. It sounds Like someone is covering someones butt. and it happens to be the Florida Inspector Generals office too. they said they would now down-grade the investigation, and now its two peoples word against mine. I have never been so Embarrassed in my life. I told The Truth and It called me a Liar. ???

Quote:


Gino,

Some very interesting facts that you have presented here

1) It's quite scary to learn that a guy with one week of "training" can tell that your voice sound patterns are indicating "deception". On the other hand, the polygrapher undergoes 8-10 weeks of training and is branded an "expert" on the physiology of the human body. Another thought is how many of these guys have been to college anyway? probably very few. They are able to prove "deception" by the slightest "deviation" of your breathing patterns and blood pressure and sweat activity in your fingers or by variations in your speech patterns. 

It takes a medical student 8 years to learn the function of the human body, then they must spend an additional 2-5 years as an intern and resident learning their specialty. 

Can it be that a polygrapher is more expert on human physiology after 8-10 weeks than someone with 8-10 years of medical education and 2-5 more years of post graduate work?

2) There is no way to counter something that has no scientific or research evidence of it's value. The company who made it will say anything as long as people will buy their sales pitch and the product.

As for the polygraph, well everyone who reads this message board knows the story.

3) If everyone knew they were worthless props, WATCH OUT!!! Any claim of accuracy or reliability or worthiness is GONE. Then these people are really back to square on.

4) Let the games wage on.  The house of cards is about to tumble!!!!


Fred F.