xenonman wrote on Sep 10^th, 2016 at 10:13am:


More accurately, very probably "intelligence community" hubris.    

Hello1977 wrote on Sep 28^th, 2016 at 3:44am:


What is meant by  "hypothetical" here?

It's also worth noting that all of my personal information included in my first post, including my education, degrees earned, former employment, everything, was completely fabricated and not accurate.  I put fake personal information so as to not be easily identified.

Hello again everyone.  I will be starting a new thread titled "A success story", to hopefully allow for more people to read my hypothetical experience.  Long story short, I passed, hypothetically.  The new thread will have a detailed account of my hypothetical experience.

Hello1977 wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2016 at 5:07am:



Just hope that Mr. QF doesn't spike your coffee with the "truth serum"!   

Quote:


That's very impressive that you were given four such opportunities.

For most applicants, it's just one shot, and then they're out the door until at least their 120th birthday.

Dan Mangan wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2016 at 1:19am:


From the hostile tone and similar vocabulary of his replies, I seriously believe that quickfix may have been the one responsible from my removal from the "federal soup" forum.

If you really want a job at one of those three-letter-organizations, my advice is not to come in with the expectation of "I have to pass now, or my life is over." I eventually ended up passing after at least four tries, and I found the process incredibly abusive, but I'm stubborn and figured I'd go as long as they kept inviting me (not sure that's a healthy personality attribute to have).

The stars aligned eventually, I guess. The real question is whether you really want to work long term for an organization that will continue to put you through this process once every five years? 

George, I appreciate your detailed responses a great deal, thank you.  I feel confident but still nervous because I have never taken one before and because I need this job badly.

Dan, I appreciate your candid opinion and can respect the positions you take.  If only more polygraph examiners were like yourself.

Also Dan, I do not intend to act "alpha" at my polygraph examination.  That comment was a joke about how if I had a colleague like quickfix, I would likely make them my bitch within the first couple of days.  During my examination I intent to be friendly, humble, let the examiner feel like they are in control and also act like i believe polygraphs are 100% accurate.

I have my polygraph in the next 7-14 days and then will post my experience 3-7 days after the test, so as to not be easily identified.

I welcome any addition comments or opinions on my strategy and situation.  Thank you everyone, and wish me luck!

Still waiting on that coffee quickfix.

Hello1977 wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2016 at 2:48am:


Hello1977, I do not recommend the use of countermeasures, nor do I provide advice on their implementation.

As a polygraph examiner and full member of the American Polygraph Association, I hold a view that is largely deemed by the APA to be naked heresy: I agree with the findings of the National Academy of Sciences as described in their exhaustive report, "The Polygraph and Lie Detection." That makes me an apostate within the polygraph "profession."

With regard to your situation, I predict that most of the in-test countermeasure attempts you employ -- as well as your "alpha" play-acting -- will backfire.

Hello1977 wrote on Sep 1^st, 2016 at 1:47am:


The cardio channel reflects changes in blood pressure and heart rate. The baseline (that is, the vertical position of the cardio waveform on the chart) rises or falls with changes in blood pressure.

Quote:


The cardio channel (unlike the respiratory channel) cannot be directly manipulated. However, mental such as rapidly performing mental arithmetic or physical countermeasures such as tongue-biting may result in timely changes in blood pressure and heart rate.

Quote:


Yes. It's a solid strategy. I believe that DIA polygraph chief Brett A. Stern in fact specifically mentioned this in a presentation a few years back.

Quote:


Correct.

Quote:


Remember that polygraphy is the brainchild of interrogators, not  scientists. The main polygraph method in use today was devised by a crackpot who was persuaded that plants can read human minds. 

Hello1977 wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2016 at 2:48am:


Dear Hello1977 -   You beat me too it !  I was going to post that it was too bad that Quickfix wasn't born in Germany in the 1920's - He would have made an excellent concentration camp guard !   Let's hope that he and all other federal polygraph operators share the same fate as the Nazi concentration camp guards.  (I am saying being put on trial, not advocating violence) 
Actually they are more of the ilk of the concentration camp commandants.  More innocent blood on their hands.

Dan Mangan wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2016 at 1:19am:


hahaha good times, good times.

Dan, would you care to weigh in on my strategy and perhaps answer the follow up questions I had in regards to George's response?  I understand you are a polygraph examiner but I am going to be 100% truthful on my polygraph and am simply afraid of a false positive.  I do not think it would be unethical or unprofessional in anyway to assist someone in not failing for a false positive.   

At the least, it's nice to see a polygraph examiner who does not have the personality of a nazi extermination camp guard.   

As a polygraph examiner, do you recognize and admit to the severe shortcomings of the polygraph?  Do you agree that many qualified applicants have been rejected from jobs because of false positives?  Not trying to attack you, just would love to see an examiner acknowledge the reality of the situation.

ROTFLMAO!

A most predictable display of federal polygraph operator hubris.

Quickifix, while you're at it, please make mine with cream and two sugars.

What a schmuck... Quickfix took the bait like a novice.

Classic. 

quickfix wrote on Sep 1^st, 2016 at 6:27pm:


hahahaha TRIGGERED!

laughing my ass off.  thanks for that quickfix.  Where's my coffee?

Hello1977 wrote on Sep 1^st, 2016 at 3:54pm:


Don't worry, asshole, when you fail your first polygraph, you won't be invited back for a second one, so you better ask for that coffee on day one.

xenonman:

Thank you for the advice!  I am painfully aware of how slim of a chance even a qualified applicant has for securing employment with a federal intelligence agency.  I have applied to a wide range of federal agencies  and/or state and local law enforcement agencies.  The problem being that once I fail one polygraph I imagine I will be blacklisted from the rest of the jobs as well.  I apply to hundreds of jobs, most of which I am grossly overqualified for. (Such as a bank Teller making $10-$12 an hour).  I can not find employment with a job that requires a JD.  My only experience is in banking/finance jobs but I am obviously willing to change industries.  Some very tough times as far as securing employment currently in America.

Jesus, the thought of having to interact with people similar to Quickfix is a daunting prospect indeed.  Although, in person I bet he is a beta that I would mentally dominate and by the 2nd day he would be bringing me my coffee.

One more critical point for you:

If you are desperate for work, do NOT put all your eggs in one basket, with respect to employment in the intelligence community (if that is where you are in fact seeking employment)

The statistical odds against ultimately being hired are grossly stacked against you, and the application process can drag on for months.

The most frustrating aspect about employment at the so-called "three-letter" agencies is learning that whatever qualifications you may enjoy and enthusiasm for finding work there all count for zilch.  The primary concern is how much dirt that can or can't be found in your background.

Another "fringe benefit" of working in the intelligence community is that many of your co-workers will display personality quirks similar to those of a "quickfix" !

Just out of curiosity, can't you find any work with a JD  in VA?

George, thank you very much for your response.  I have a few lingering questions, though.

I read the link you provided as well as the entire lie behind the lie detector.  Forgive my ignorance but I don't seem to understand what change from baseline they measure on your heart rate, if not increased bpm.  What else besides BPM and blood pressure does the machine catalog?  What physiological changes are you trying to accomplish during the control questions, in regards to heart beat?  What does doing mental arithmetic do to your circulatory system responses?  Sorry if these are stupid questions, I apologize.  I guess the way those polygraph examiner books are written is geared more towards dumbass tarrot card readers with a reading level of a 8th grader.  Is my strategy of when I get a control question, exhale and do not inhale for 3-4 seconds, then answer yes or no, a solid strategy?  Anything you would add or tweak in regards to my breathing countermeasure plan?

Secondly, I now understand you must give the "expected" answer on control questions.  But, I'm confused, so the examiner is cool with you lying on control questions but not relevant?  Seems pretty hypocritical and defeats the "purpose" of the test; i.e. finding out if the examinee is truthful and will answer the testers questions honestly.  If someone is lying on the control questions regarding if you have ever stolen something before, why would the examiner believe anything you say from that point on?  I guess it doesn't matter, and I understand I must play the game, but it just seems pretty counter-intuitive.  Forgive my rambling.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond, George, I know you must be a very busy man and I am extremely grateful for your expertise.

If anyone besides George has anything to add from their own personal experiences or just their general knowledge, please post it.

Rest assured, I will post an extremely detailed post about my polygraph experience, with an update included stating if I passed it or failed it.

A problem I foresee is the fact that I need this job very badly and am terrified of failing the polygraph and thus not getting the job.  I think it is inevitable that this is going to play a role in my "results".

Hello1977 wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:14pm:


I'll be most interested in learning more of your experiences as you wend the torturous path! 

Thank you very much George and xenonman.  This forum and your contributions are an invaluable resource.  I look forward to getting this silly test out of the way and being able to post a detailed report of my experience, which will hopefully end with a "pass".

George, I will read further on that subject and carefully read the link you posted.  If I have any further questions I will post them in this thread.

Once again, thank you!

Hello1977 wrote on Aug 31^st, 2016 at 2:45am:


Also, as I've expounded on this forum ad nauseum, a possibly even more formidable obstacle than the polygraph to your successfully securing a sinecure in those buildings just off of Dolly Madison's highway will be the lifestyle aspect of the background investigation.

Hello1977 wrote on Aug 30^th, 2016 at 5:15pm:



If you do ultimately work for that "certain federal agency" just off of the George Washington Parkway and VA 123, I can assure you most of your co-workers will very likely have personalities similar to those of our in-house mole, Mr. "[i]quick fix"[/i].

Hello1977 wrote on Aug 30^th, 2016 at 5:15pm:


There is no research on the relative effectiveness of different kinds of mental polygraph countermeasures.

On the cardio tracing, polygraph operators look for changes in baseline, which is not directly a function of heart rate. See p 33 ff. of Test Data Analysis: DoDPI Numerical Evaluation Scoring System.

Quote:


One should give the expected answer to the "control" question, which in this case is "no."

I would really appreciate some opinions and advice.  Thanks!