sackett wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2008 at 10:48pm:


Thank-you for being honest.  I asked Donna Taylor the same thing, and she quit talking to me about it!

Twoblock wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2008 at 10:31pm:

nopolycop wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2008 at 10:29pm:


I couldn't tell you, since I am not able to prove that I can identify them, "better than chance..."

Sackett

sackett

1. You said "alternative to the propaganda provided here". Does that not include CMs?

2. Where did I promote and state the success if CMs? I didn't. So there is no propaganda.

3. I am sure that you catch some CM attempts. You have never made the statement that I recall, but to make a blanker statement "I catch them all" is pure propaganda. When polygraphers become mind readers, then they will catch most mental CMs that people who can't controll their minds tries to apply.

4 It is a proven fact that puckering the butt mussle raises the BP, heart rate and sweat. Whether is is successful or not is not an issue. The asleep at the wheel examiner is not an issue in my statement. And you are correct. CMs do affect the poly test whether they are successful or not. It, also, is proven that mental CMs do the same thing.

5. I didn't ask you to take the challenge. I simply said that a statement is propoganda until proven.

As to your last para. - (and BTW thanks for answering) I am sure there has been an increase because thousands are now using them and I agree it is totally because of this site, Doug's and others. I guess what I was trying to get at is: Is the increase in attempts comparable to the numbers who are getting the education here.. And I am talking about the thousands of LEO applicants that visit here.

Lastly. Polygraphers are allowed to come on here and do their damndest to discredit it and George and Gino. What does the APA have to hide that they don't allow such posts?

BTW - at my age, I'm ALL over myself.

sackett wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2008 at 8:51pm:


Okay, so you are watching for countermeasures.  What percentage of people that you test use countermeasures?   

First of all, I never said countermeasures were propaganda.  It is your promotion of and supposed succes rate with them, that is propaganda.  I catch people using them frequently.  I can't prove that to you and really could give a crap less whether you believe me.  But, sometimes they affect the test and I call them on it, othertimes, I see them but they're ineffectual and don't matter, then I don't need to.  Just because I don't prove it to you, does not in any way, shape or form mean that I can't!  Get over yourself!!  


You wrote that CMs' are proven.  How so?  Yeah, I suppose if your examiner is asleep or playing solitare during your examination.  But that is what we as a profession are trying to fix.  

Just as in "the challenge."  I have already established that if an examiner did accept it, there would be no way for them to prove their ability.  Meaning, I say someone bit their tongue, and you respond, Nope!  He raked his teeth, see you don't know what you're talking about then run to your local keyboard to self promote your abilities....  Quite frankly, I'll avoid that discussion and leave it to the researchers.

As far as your specific question to my percentage increase of people using CM's, I would say there has been an obvious increase.  Much of this is due to George's promotion of this site.  That fine.  We examiners read this too!  If you can do it, I have read about it and am watching for it.

See ya,


Sackett

Oh fiddle-sticks!

You're just one of those damn "anti" types who thinks he is entitled to a job and want to continue having a "pity-party" because you just won't "accept" the validity of the polygraph!   

You should have cooperated with your polygrapher.  After all, he was there to HELP you, if only you had the INTEGRITY to accept it!   

The polygraph is 95% accurate.  Just ask Trimbarco.  Do you think he'd say that on national TV if it wasn't true?

And please don't make Mr. Sackett responsible for what Trimbarco said.  He wasn't there! 

Okay, did you just have a "visceral" reaction to what you just read above?

Why?  Something "bothering you"?   

sackett

You say you provide an alternative to the propaganda provided here. Proven points are not propaganda. The "countermeasures" provided here are proven. That takes away propaganda. All polygraphers posting here say they catch subjects attempting CMs so even polygraphers are proving CMs are not propaganda. None of you have proven that you can detect CMs. When asked to prove it, all you say is "that's a secret, but try them and I gotcha". Now that's propaganda. Secrets are propaganda until until proven. Therefore, calling the information provided here propaganda, IS propaganda because you can't prove it. 

What is not propaganda is the refusal to answer a question like I asked nonombre a long time ago "over the last 4 years (when polygraphers started saying they can catch CM attempts), what is your percentage increase over the prior 4 years. I will now pose the same question to you. If you answer, I hope it's not propaganda but noninflated facts. 

Don't say again I'm trying to bait you because that would still be propaganda.

LALE,

are you offended that I replied to a comment you made to another?  Rather sensitive, aren't we...?  I thought this was an open board?  Didn't realize you were the moderator.

No, I'm not NLG4U, I am who I say I am.  I don't need to hide behind a false name or moniker to espouse my views with the freedom of anonymity.  Some do, I do not.

What corners have I painted myself into? If you cared to remove your slanted sarcasm glasses and actually read what I post, you, well, maybe not you, but others may actually see that I have a consistent thoughts regarding the use and application of polygraph.

I have no hidden agenda or mission.  I post here simply to provide the readers; not you, but the readers with an alternative to the propaganda provided here.

As of this date, it is still an open board where all thoughts and ideas were solicited and can be exchanged, not just your thoughts...

Sackett

sackett wrote on Mar 1^st, 2008 at 12:59am:


Sackett,
If you're not NLG4U why do you reply on his behalf?
Do you have his POA ?
Or are you a self appointed spokesman.
You have painted yourself into corners several times in the past 10 days, following your nonsensical outbursts iro polygraph.

Do you know the old adage, 'Empty vessels make the most sound' ?

The NAS Report is your demon.  Rubbish it as much as you wish, it tells it like as it is - and you dont like that much. sort of makes your job in Las Vegas a bit superfluous, donnit now ?

"polyf", 

Your psychological disorder is unfortunate.

As for your diluted address of the CNS and ANS (SNS and PSNS) you simpy muddied the waters between the two. They are, for the most part, oil and water... and never the twain conflict.

Sackett

Quote:


The autonomic nervous system has a "sympathetic response"  and a "para-sympathetic" response.

SR is evidenced by increase in BP, sweating, faster heart beat, more rapid and breathing.   

Which is pretty much what the polygraph measures.

The SR can be thought of as a "continuum" from  mild arousal to a panic response (full kick in of the "fight, flight or freeze" response).

This is indeed affected by conscious thought.  The unconscious in fact takes many of it's cues from the conscious mind.

I know all of this because I suffer from an anxiety disorder.   I know from experience that a pattern of negative thought (say thinking about my polygraph experience) causes a pattern of negative emotions (hate, anger, fear...etc), which manifests in ANS arousal (increase BP, heart rate, breathing, sweating) though not necessarily into a FFF response!

Quote:


That still doesn't explain why that reaction necessarily equates to "lie" or "deception".

There are other possible reasons for people to have a "visceral reaction" to a question other than deception.

Ever hear of Dr. Phil Zimbardo at Stanford University.  I distinctly remember watching an educational tape from him talking about the polygraph.  His conclusion:

"There is no direct and UNEQUIVOCAL relationship between ANS and telling a lie."

I believe the NAS came to the same general conclusion.

"polyf",

I am not, nor will I ever be held responsible for what others do or say!

Sackett

Quote:


Do you consider TNLG4U to be providing adult conversation?

LALE wrote on Feb 29^th, 2008 at 4:49pm:


OK LALE, I took you up on your advice.  I flipped the coin, you lose!  Go apply elswhere...

I got a better idea.  Have an idea that is not filled with sarcasm, venom and attacks.  Then, maybe, you can have an adult conversation with others on this board.

Sackett 

     Hello LALE,

   First, I'm NOT Your Bro, My Bro's actually have a job, and ARE making a contribution, and did not have to try to find a way to cheat to do so.  Further, they do not have as their prophet a zealot such as GM who is no less than an obsessed waste of talent who blew his chance just prior to the war on terror occurring where he might have been able to find some use for his skills.  Also, that you can, or can not, follow what I write is ONLY a reflection on you and/or your limited mindset, and not on what was written.  Also, if you had read my former listing, you would know that simply repeating GM's mantra does not make polygraph crap.  Rather, it, as a functioning computer program, was put together by far better men and women than you, and who had in mind the best interests of our nation.  In closing, and once again, I just thank God these people did their jobs and screened out littly cry baby's like you with a false sense of entitlement for just showing up.  If your demonic counter measures work so dam well, then why don't you have a job with a Different agency you snot nosed little shit !!  Real Men would have been much more persistant in applying and focussed on success, rather than crawling into a ghetto of the mind as you lay in.   BTW, I have a college educated mind and this was as short and to the point as I could be.  Thanks 

NLG4U,

Are you a preacher or what. A man of few words you aint.
Amidst all your verbal diarrhoea I found it difficult to find your
point. Your posts are like novels written by an addict who cant
find his stash.

Not meaning to ad hom you - just make a point succintly.

Now, let me make mine in short: Polygraph is utter crap.
Why dont we use something simpler, like a coin toss. Its quicker and has about the same reliability rate. Waddya say bro ?

Good Night to you Larry .  Dream the Dreams of positive man, and dream that you will wake up tommorow and face the world with a new knowledge of looking that mirror at the actual "Larry", and not whom you suppose this country needed.  Good Men are in place to find those to succeed them and /or compliment the needs of this nation.  You may not like that process, it may not have served your dream or goal, but it is a tried and true system which has served us well from the inception of the cold war to the present.  Nobody is asking you to Judge that, as it it's own pragmatic way, the Intel community finds the best way to meet our nation's leaders desire for verified information, and these leaders have seen too many verified events using the polygraph, and as with all science; it just gets better with time.  Want proof ?  The negative based crap spewed here about the polygraph has not to date caused the leaders of any State or Federal government agency to ban its use on their own people.  Rather, as pragmatic thinkers, they turn to educated men and women in their respective fields such as the Johns Hopkins University's PolyScore, now in it's 6th generation of software, as they established a logical basis for evaluating the charts.  Further, no less than perhaps five or six other such programs.  Did these people design that for you to fail ? NO, rather they designed it with the idea of seperating as best as possible Truth from Deception.  Do you really believe that so many have conspired against you ?  No such conspiracy among good people would have stood the test of time as polygraph has.  Perfect ? NO !, but neither is aviation, medicine, dentistry, or other well intended disciplines.  You say it did not work for you, fine !!!  Apparently it did work for someone who in fact got the job.  You assume that because your needs did not get met that we are all suffering because of that.  Shut up you selfish bastard !!!!  The government will get along fine without you !!!  Did you have ALL of your eggs in one basket ?  or is your education broad enough that you will make a success out of yourself anyway ?  I heard the Marines were looking for a few good men, and others have done well there.  Stop the dam pitty party for Larry here.  Man up you sniffeling little shit, and use your skills to prove them wrong and make a success of yourself anyway, and maybe they will come back to you when they are short handed or something if your skill set is as valuable as you say it is.     You appear to me as someone whom your Mother taught manners, but did your Father teach you what you need to succeed in a community of real men ?  Get focussed on your life, and stop blaming people who did in fact do their jobs and found you lacking.  You want to blame a recording device ?  Should someone blame an EKG for exposing their heart condition, or didn't that person going into that test know something was wrong prior to getting to the hospital ?  We have no assurance here about you or any of these individuals posting about your true negative baggage you bring as an applicant, only the positives you post here about why you should have gotten the job.  You too also don't know who all of your competition was, and clearly somebody got the job.  Carry on Pilgrim !!

Larry,

you wrote: "If the NSA gives you a conditional offer, it means you've been:

"selected for employment contingent upon successful completion of security and medical screenings, as follows:

   * Medical/psychological screening by NSA medical staff.
   * Full field background investigation and polygraph testing."

IOW, they "want you".  BTW, that's straight out of their manual."

Yes, it means they want you; AS LONG AS you can successfully complete the medical, psych and poly/background.  The conditional letter (usually a fill in the blank type) simply allows the agency to continue to look into your past and dig for exclusionary disqualifiers.  Otherwise, there could be ADA or other employment violations, etc that would expose them to legal action.  For example, you applied for a job, got the conditional offer then they found out you were mentally ill.  Are you still entitled to the job then, just because they previously "wanted you?"  I don't think so.

Best thing about governmental agencies.  For every 50 applicants who think they are well qualified and deserve the job, there is one or two that actually do, and get it.


Sackett

If you read my reply you would have figured out that a full field background is NOT necessarily completed prior to your polygraph.  I will tell you that most in the process, particularly those with multiple prior addresses, two or more, are scheduled based on a NAC / National Agency Check and fingerprint card.  It is YOU that assume too much grasshopper.  You cited part of the hiring manual and took to your tunnel vision mind false assumptions about where you were in the process.  I bet if you read that tenative offer letter you will find that your name was filled in at the top and that it was otherwise generic past the first paragraph.  Don't you know that all such correspondence is reviewed prior to being send out ?  Did you think you were getting a personalized letter ?  Grow up, your sense of self importance is too high here.  Perhaps that showed in your psyche too. 
By the way, as with the military and other U.S. Government agencies; the needs of the (Fill in the Blank) come before anything in the manual you were given under long standing directives, and you will not be able to suck off that technical tit from your wining about it.   

  If you were really as analytical here as you say, then you would have figured out that the NAS report you love to wave about (like the book of Mao) is not in fact a peer review study, as the very scientists who put their name on it are in many, if not most, cases dependant on a security clearance for their jobs, and are subject to these polygraph tests.  Ofcourse they don't like to admit that, but you need only look at their resumes to see where they have worked, and you will find your answer.  The simple truth is that they think they are above it all due to their PhD's like George M.  In reality, this country has been betrayed many times by people of such high education.  One thing for sure, Men as good as you, if not better, as using the best tools they have for the job.  That you do, or do not, like those tools, or the NAS taking the same (in their case biased) opinion, does NOT equate to peer review research on yours or their part.  If you have a better process, then invent it, sell it, and be a government contractor.  However, attitude is everything, and yours thus far, has not taken you where you artificially feel you are entitled to be.     May I recommend in your case a Tony Robbins course, or at least a book by Peale about the power of positive thinking.  You really are a downer and even women have radar for that, so don't let this leave you jobless and alone on Saturday nights.  Get positive, and re-engineer your way toward a job as good, or better----- and perhaps in a technical area.  You came here looking for a shortcut, found a group of similarly disgruntled people, and you have no more clout than a bunch of wino's bitching about the world.  I don't know if as a Parent I could even let my child play the blues all day long as you have holistically done here.  Keep Polishing, you'll get there !

I really don't have to be a polygraph person to know that you did not make the cut, want someone or something simple to blame, and the polygraph was your last phase in your mind.

I cited their hiring manual.  Which was not good enough for you.

You refuse to cite any instance of a poster here indicating they thought they are entitled (the allegation YOU MADE) to anything other than NOT being falsely branded a liar.   

We're not going to get anywhere with such blather.

I tried to take you seriously.

Good night.

Larry, so now you go from trying to tell me about what is best for national security, to admitting that you were not the best qualified.  GOOD, we are making progress !!  By the way, the word "Contingent" as you have shown here, does NOT imply or promise that at the time of your test these other phases were completed, and only that they were underway or pending.  There are some particular jobs that are scheduled in priority over others and the process is put on a fast track to again------- meet the agency's needs, and not your needs.  Further, the phrase "full field background AND polygraph testing" does not mean that one was completed before the other took place, as they are on paralell tracks with different individuals taking on their tasker and feeding it into your overall jacket.   
  I really don't have to be a polygraph person to know that you did not make the cut, want someone or something simple to blame, and the polygraph was your last phase in your mind.  Do you really think they wanted you to fail ?  Don't you think they wanted a return for their (How many hours ? ) investment in you.  Isn't everyone's job in the process that you met geared toward meeting THEIR needs, not yours !!    Shall we go on polishing your mirror a bit more ?  Figure it out Grasshopper, YOU were not the best among the group at the time from which they had to pick from, and you must know they were NOT putting all of their eggs in one basket.  Get your inflated ego out of the equation, and perhaps try something from which you might have a resume launch pad from which to reapply later.  I don't know your age, but you must know your wisdom is lacking, rather than mine as I have been on the inside, whereas you only got a peek at the window.
Stay positive, and don't crawl in the gutter with GM who has become a zealot and is obsessed about his failure, and done the very thing (unauthorized foreign nationals) after his test occurred that the FBI feared he "Might" do from the inside.  It seems they forgot to give Trimarco a medal for that when he honorably retired and made something of himself as a Positive person in life.  Ask yourself this question; If you had to spend a night on the town with either Jack Trimarco or George M. as it would affect your overall outcome in life (a proverbial fork in the road) who would you choose.  I think the same could be said for either a Tony Robbins type or Ralph Nader (I had to choose an Arab !).  If you would choose the laddter, rather than the former, then if probably means you are a pessimist / downer type that others tire of quickly.  If you choose the former, others would simply gain from your presence which partly came from them to you.  So do polish that mirror and get yourself out of the gutter here.  I have only lookd here in the gutter as of late to see what unfertilized grounds might still exist, but have found only shit !!!

  Stay positive, your future will brighten, and work your way up that totem pole as the rest of us did !!!!   

How do we know that YOU were the BEST qualified among those they made an offer to

When did I say I was the "best qualified"?   

If the NSA gives you a conditional offer, it means you've been:

"selected for employment contingent upon successful completion of security and medical screenings, as follows:

    * Medical/psychological screening by NSA medical staff.
    * Full field background investigation and polygraph testing."

IOW, they "want you".  BTW, that's straight out of their manual.

Do us all a favor and do your homework before posting.   

Writing uninformed posts and making assinine assumptions and childish attacks won't get  you taken very seriously here.

You still haven't provided an example of a poster here saying (or even insinuating) they are "entitled" to employment.

Most of the "false positives" who post here don't like  being falsely called liars, and having their reputations smeared.

P.S.   Who is more believable?   People working in, and dependent upon, the polygraph industry, or the NAS?  If you have anything better than the NAS report http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309084369, please feel free to cite it.  What was it in the NAS report that you take issue with?

Hi Larry, now stop looking in that mirror too long, vanity is a sin !!  By the way, I WAS in the Ops Community, and speak as a professional WHO HAS met ALL of the tests given to me.  You ARE a WANNABE with a false sense of entitlement.  Now we have gone full circle here.  We know what you didn't get, but don't know the whole of why, only what you've been told.  You've quoted to me as if you were an authority on national security, when in reality you speak from the positon of being nothing more than a babe wanting to suck on a tit.  My greatest advice to you grasshopper is to stay positive, and you too one day will learn to snatch the pebble from their hand, but it won't be from G.M.'s cute countermeasure attempts, but rather from your best self being brought forward when both your fine education and personality have matured.   
  By the way, take no comfort in that the HR types who sell you the career are at odds with the security division; they did not invent that just for you, as it is the Ying and Yang of the existance of hiring for the agency's best outcome.  HR is not heartbroken over you not making it, as they WILL make their recruiting goals, and our national security will go on fine without you in the equation.  Stay positive, and find something for which you know you are the BEST qualified, rather than assuming so from nothing more than your own ego.   

Larry, once again, a self fulfilling prophacy !!  You Assume the negative.  How do we know that YOU were the BEST qualified among those they made an offer to.  Getting an offer to be on the olympic team does not guarentee you a medal !!  If my memmory is correct as a prior GS high paygrade myself, You got a "Tenative" offer contingent upon completing a background.  The polygraph is only part of that process.  There are certainly others who can, or could, do the job as well as you, and the agency will get it's needs met.  Again, you were NOT ENTITLED to the job--------- and your attitude just proved my point.  Once again, you assumed that YOU were the BEST QUALIFIED----- and you truly don't know that, just as the moderator can not state this about his background.   

  One thing is for certain.  In the marketplace of employment, employers take the least risk for the greatest reward as do stock investors.  You place ALL of the blame on the limited knowledge you have here that they have shared with you. Are you of the opinion that they really have the time and energy to do all of this numerous testing for fun and games; no I'm sure they are quite serious, and a reasonable person might arrive at the conclusion that the position did get filled and with someone who met ALL of the tests involved, and you were NOT as competative as they were.  Grow up !!!  The world is not a perfectly fair place 24/7, and maybe you need a good look in the mirror which may be a better truth verifier than the won you moan about !!!