Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A False Sense of Entitlement !! (Read 12990 times)
TheNoLieGuy4U
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 97
Joined: Nov 7th, 2004
A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Feb 28th, 2008 at 2:43am
Print Post  
       Hi Folks,

   I guess what bothers me here as I read these rants and raves is the false sense of entitlement demanded by those who take tests.  People here seem to believe that they are entitled to the job they are applying for, rather than trying to be the most competative. Simple Math would dictate that there will be more applicants apply than there are actual jobs.  Even the moderator CAN NOT assure us that HE was the most competative for the job overall that he was applying for with the FBI or the LAPD.  Further, despite his claims in this site, just LOOK AT WHAT HE DID after he was told he failed his test.  He moved to Holland and took up work and friendships with the very "Unauthorized Foreign National Contacts" that he denied in the first place.  I think that is what they call a SELF FULFILLING PROPHECY. 

  Of all the posts I've read here, nobody seems to have an idea, or replacement, for the abilities (despite any shortcomings) of this technology to get the job done.  Instead, they ridicule the inventor who was an Ivy league engineer, for having a hobby of drawing the cartoon Wonder Woman.  Didn't Edison have his doodles on display as well in the Smithsonian ?  Should he be discounted for his contributions ?  He / They did not have a false sense of entitlement in their generation, and lived through tougher times than ANY of these complainers.  The best rise to the top over time, and you complainers sound stagnated in your careers.  I read about some of the people that you folks complain about, and each seems to have actually accomplished something in their life above and beyond polygraph.  You, and they, are / were owed nothing by these agencies other than the right to apply.  After that, if you simply don't fit in to the agency or corporate culture, find a home more suited to yourself.  It is not they who have to adapt to YOU, but rather you to them.  I guess I just would have a hard time being in a squad car with half of you who bitch and complain, which as a fair minded person shows me that most of you wouldn't make it anyway.  If most of you lie so well, why not go into used car sales ?  or if you are so truthful try being a man of the cloth  or something !!!   Cool Smiley Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #1 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 2:51am
Print Post  
I guess what bothers me here as I read these rants and raves is the false sense of entitlement demanded by those who take tests.

Can you please provide an a example of people on this board "ranting and raving" because they thought they were "entitled" to the job, rather than complaining about being falsely called liars AND THUS NOT GETTING THE JOB?

There is a difference.

If you came into my office asking for a job, and I told you I wouldn't hire you because some bogus machine (discredited by the scientific community) has led me to believe you were a child molestor (and you couldn't prove otherwise), and you complained, would you be complaining because of the unsubstantiated allegation, or because you thought you were entitled to the job but didn't get?

Just out of curiosity.  How accurate do you think the polygraph is?
« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2008 at 3:07am by T.M. Cullen »  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #2 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 2:58am
Print Post  
Whoops! 

Almost double posted!
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TheNoLieGuy4U
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 97
Joined: Nov 7th, 2004
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #3 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 3:04am
Print Post  
Larry, quite often where there is smoke there is fire.  Further, water takes the path of least resistance !  Employers too, hire those who pose the best investment for them, or least amount of work to get the best fit NOW.  They simply don't have time for your bitching and negativity.  Stay positive though, there is work out there for you, but you may not be the best match for what you feel "entitled" to, and need to move on.  It may not be that you are a liar, but that someone else in the process was regarded as Truthful before you could reach that status, or that they were otherwise easier to hire than you all around. So please, as stated in your example, if you start a company or something, take the plunge and hire the child molesters.  There are many of them cruising this site !!  Just make sure you have that insurance paid up when someone sues you for lack of due dillagence when they act out on your time / company time. ! Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #4 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 3:14am
Print Post  
Larry, quite often where there is smoke there is fire.

Guilty until proven innocent?  You're scary!

Further, water takes the path of least resistance !  Employers too, hire those who pose the best investment for them, or least amount of work to get the best fit NOW.

I was offered a GS-13 position by the "hiring committee" so they wanted me.  It was only the polygraph that disqualified me.  Many others on this board (including GM) were in the same position.  Hiring committees (the ops folks who decide who to hire) often get into "pissing contests" with the agency's security folks over qualified candidates.  Doesn't look like you know much about the hiring process at these agencies.

They simply don't have time for your bitching and negativity. 

Some might not have time for your assinine assumptions. 

Does the country deserve to have the BEST QUALIFIED PEOPLE working for them?

Do future applicants have a right to know about the little "con game" in store for them before walking into the polygraph examination room?

As for, "well, come up with something better or stop complaining" argument.  That is NOT an argument for KEEPING something the scientific community has debunked!

Not when the NATIONAL SECURITY is at stake.
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TheNoLieGuy4U
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 97
Joined: Nov 7th, 2004
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #5 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 3:25am
Print Post  
Larry, once again, a self fulfilling prophacy !!  You Assume the negative.  How do we know that YOU were the BEST qualified among those they made an offer to.  Getting an offer to be on the olympic team does not guarentee you a medal !!  If my memmory is correct as a prior GS high paygrade myself, You got a "Tenative" offer contingent upon completing a background.  The polygraph is only part of that process.  There are certainly others who can, or could, do the job as well as you, and the agency will get it's needs met.  Again, you were NOT ENTITLED to the job--------- and your attitude just proved my point.  Once again, you assumed that YOU were the BEST QUALIFIED----- and you truly don't know that, just as the moderator can not state this about his background. 

  One thing is for certain.  In the marketplace of employment, employers take the least risk for the greatest reward as do stock investors.  You place ALL of the blame on the limited knowledge you have here that they have shared with you. Are you of the opinion that they really have the time and energy to do all of this numerous testing for fun and games; no I'm sure they are quite serious, and a reasonable person might arrive at the conclusion that the position did get filled and with someone who met ALL of the tests involved, and you were NOT as competative as they were.  Grow up !!!  The world is not a perfectly fair place 24/7, and maybe you need a good look in the mirror which may be a better truth verifier than the won you moan about !!!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TheNoLieGuy4U
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 97
Joined: Nov 7th, 2004
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #6 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 3:58am
Print Post  
Hi Larry, now stop looking in that mirror too long, vanity is a sin !!  By the way, I WAS in the Ops Community, and speak as a professional WHO HAS met ALL of the tests given to me.  You ARE a WANNABE with a false sense of entitlement.  Now we have gone full circle here.  We know what you didn't get, but don't know the whole of why, only what you've been told.  You've quoted to me as if you were an authority on national security, when in reality you speak from the positon of being nothing more than a babe wanting to suck on a tit.  My greatest advice to you grasshopper is to stay positive, and you too one day will learn to snatch the pebble from their hand, but it won't be from G.M.'s cute countermeasure attempts, but rather from your best self being brought forward when both your fine education and personality have matured. 
  By the way, take no comfort in that the HR types who sell you the career are at odds with the security division; they did not invent that just for you, as it is the Ying and Yang of the existance of hiring for the agency's best outcome.  HR is not heartbroken over you not making it, as they WILL make their recruiting goals, and our national security will go on fine without you in the equation.  Stay positive, and find something for which you know you are the BEST qualified, rather than assuming so from nothing more than your own ego.   Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #7 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 4:23am
Print Post  
How do we know that YOU were the BEST qualified among those they made an offer to

When did I say I was the "best qualified"?   

If the NSA gives you a conditional offer, it means you've been:

"selected for employment contingent upon successful completion of security and medical screenings, as follows:

    * Medical/psychological screening by NSA medical staff.
    * Full field background investigation and polygraph testing."

IOW, they "want you".  BTW, that's straight out of their manual.

Do us all a favor and do your homework before posting. 

Writing uninformed posts and making assinine assumptions and childish attacks won't get  you taken very seriously here.

You still haven't provided an example of a poster here saying (or even insinuating) they are "entitled" to employment.

Most of the "false positives" who post here don't like  being falsely called liars, and having their reputations smeared.

P.S.   Who is more believable?   People working in, and dependent upon, the polygraph industry, or the NAS?  If you have anything better than the NAS report http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309084369, please feel free to cite it.  What was it in the NAS report that you take issue with?


« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2008 at 4:52am by T.M. Cullen »  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TheNoLieGuy4U
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 97
Joined: Nov 7th, 2004
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #8 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 4:52am
Print Post  
Larry, so now you go from trying to tell me about what is best for national security, to admitting that you were not the best qualified.  GOOD, we are making progress !!  By the way, the word "Contingent" as you have shown here, does NOT imply or promise that at the time of your test these other phases were completed, and only that they were underway or pending.  There are some particular jobs that are scheduled in priority over others and the process is put on a fast track to again------- meet the agency's needs, and not your needs.  Further, the phrase "full field background AND polygraph testing" does not mean that one was completed before the other took place, as they are on paralell tracks with different individuals taking on their tasker and feeding it into your overall jacket. 
  I really don't have to be a polygraph person to know that you did not make the cut, want someone or something simple to blame, and the polygraph was your last phase in your mind.  Do you really think they wanted you to fail ?  Don't you think they wanted a return for their (How many hours ? ) investment in you.  Isn't everyone's job in the process that you met geared toward meeting THEIR needs, not yours !!    Shall we go on polishing your mirror a bit more ?  Figure it out Grasshopper, YOU were not the best among the group at the time from which they had to pick from, and you must know they were NOT putting all of their eggs in one basket.  Get your inflated ego out of the equation, and perhaps try something from which you might have a resume launch pad from which to reapply later.  I don't know your age, but you must know your wisdom is lacking, rather than mine as I have been on the inside, whereas you only got a peek at the window.
Stay positive, and don't crawl in the gutter with GM who has become a zealot and is obsessed about his failure, and done the very thing (unauthorized foreign nationals) after his test occurred that the FBI feared he "Might" do from the inside.  It seems they forgot to give Trimarco a medal for that when he honorably retired and made something of himself as a Positive person in life.  Ask yourself this question; If you had to spend a night on the town with either Jack Trimarco or George M. as it would affect your overall outcome in life (a proverbial fork in the road) who would you choose.  I think the same could be said for either a Tony Robbins type or Ralph Nader (I had to choose an Arab !).  If you would choose the laddter, rather than the former, then if probably means you are a pessimist / downer type that others tire of quickly.  If you choose the former, others would simply gain from your presence which partly came from them to you.  So do polish that mirror and get yourself out of the gutter here.  I have only lookd here in the gutter as of late to see what unfertilized grounds might still exist, but have found only shit !!!

  Stay positive, your future will brighten, and work your way up that totem pole as the rest of us did !!!! 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #9 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 4:54am
Print Post  
I really don't have to be a polygraph person to know that you did not make the cut, want someone or something simple to blame, and the polygraph was your last phase in your mind.

I cited their hiring manual.  Which was not good enough for you.

You refuse to cite any instance of a poster here indicating they thought they are entitled (the allegation YOU MADE) to anything other than NOT being falsely branded a liar. 

We're not going to get anywhere with such blather.

I tried to take you seriously.

Good night.





  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TheNoLieGuy4U
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 97
Joined: Nov 7th, 2004
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #10 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 5:21am
Print Post  
If you read my reply you would have figured out that a full field background is NOT necessarily completed prior to your polygraph.  I will tell you that most in the process, particularly those with multiple prior addresses, two or more, are scheduled based on a NAC / National Agency Check and fingerprint card.  It is YOU that assume too much grasshopper.  You cited part of the hiring manual and took to your tunnel vision mind false assumptions about where you were in the process.  I bet if you read that tenative offer letter you will find that your name was filled in at the top and that it was otherwise generic past the first paragraph.  Don't you know that all such correspondence is reviewed prior to being send out ?  Did you think you were getting a personalized letter ?  Grow up, your sense of self importance is too high here.  Perhaps that showed in your psyche too.
By the way, as with the military and other U.S. Government agencies; the needs of the (Fill in the Blank) come before anything in the manual you were given under long standing directives, and you will not be able to suck off that technical tit from your wining about it. 

  If you were really as analytical here as you say, then you would have figured out that the NAS report you love to wave about (like the book of Mao) is not in fact a peer review study, as the very scientists who put their name on it are in many, if not most, cases dependant on a security clearance for their jobs, and are subject to these polygraph tests.  Ofcourse they don't like to admit that, but you need only look at their resumes to see where they have worked, and you will find your answer.  The simple truth is that they think they are above it all due to their PhD's like George M.  In reality, this country has been betrayed many times by people of such high education.  One thing for sure, Men as good as you, if not better, as using the best tools they have for the job.  That you do, or do not, like those tools, or the NAS taking the same (in their case biased) opinion, does NOT equate to peer review research on yours or their part.  If you have a better process, then invent it, sell it, and be a government contractor.  However, attitude is everything, and yours thus far, has not taken you where you artificially feel you are entitled to be.   Sad  May I recommend in your case a Tony Robbins course, or at least a book by Peale about the power of positive thinking.  You really are a downer and even women have radar for that, so don't let this leave you jobless and alone on Saturday nights.  Get positive, and re-engineer your way toward a job as good, or better----- and perhaps in a technical area.  You came here looking for a shortcut, found a group of similarly disgruntled people, and you have no more clout than a bunch of wino's bitching about the world.  I don't know if as a Parent I could even let my child play the blues all day long as you have holistically done here.  Keep Polishing, you'll get there !
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #11 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 5:45am
Print Post  
Larry,

you wrote: "If the NSA gives you a conditional offer, it means you've been:

"selected for employment contingent upon successful completion of security and medical screenings, as follows:

   * Medical/psychological screening by NSA medical staff.
   * Full field background investigation and polygraph testing."

IOW, they "want you".  BTW, that's straight out of their manual."

Yes, it means they want you; AS LONG AS you can successfully complete the medical, psych and poly/background.  The conditional letter (usually a fill in the blank type) simply allows the agency to continue to look into your past and dig for exclusionary disqualifiers.  Otherwise, there could be ADA or other employment violations, etc that would expose them to legal action.  For example, you applied for a job, got the conditional offer then they found out you were mentally ill.  Are you still entitled to the job then, just because they previously "wanted you?"  I don't think so.

Best thing about governmental agencies.  For every 50 applicants who think they are well qualified and deserve the job, there is one or two that actually do, and get it.


Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TheNoLieGuy4U
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 97
Joined: Nov 7th, 2004
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #12 - Feb 28th, 2008 at 6:52am
Print Post  
Good Night to you Larry .  Dream the Dreams of positive man, and dream that you will wake up tommorow and face the world with a new knowledge of looking that mirror at the actual "Larry", and not whom you suppose this country needed.  Good Men are in place to find those to succeed them and /or compliment the needs of this nation.  You may not like that process, it may not have served your dream or goal, but it is a tried and true system which has served us well from the inception of the cold war to the present.  Nobody is asking you to Judge that, as it it's own pragmatic way, the Intel community finds the best way to meet our nation's leaders desire for verified information, and these leaders have seen too many verified events using the polygraph, and as with all science; it just gets better with time.  Want proof ?  The negative based crap spewed here about the polygraph has not to date caused the leaders of any State or Federal government agency to ban its use on their own people.  Rather, as pragmatic thinkers, they turn to educated men and women in their respective fields such as the Johns Hopkins University's PolyScore, now in it's 6th generation of software, as they established a logical basis for evaluating the charts.  Further, no less than perhaps five or six other such programs.  Did these people design that for you to fail ? NO, rather they designed it with the idea of seperating as best as possible Truth from Deception.  Do you really believe that so many have conspired against you ?  No such conspiracy among good people would have stood the test of time as polygraph has.  Perfect ? NO !, but neither is aviation, medicine, dentistry, or other well intended disciplines.  You say it did not work for you, fine !!!  Apparently it did work for someone who in fact got the job.  You assume that because your needs did not get met that we are all suffering because of that.  Shut up you selfish bastard !!!!  The government will get along fine without you !!!  Did you have ALL of your eggs in one basket ?  or is your education broad enough that you will make a success out of yourself anyway ?  I heard the Marines were looking for a few good men, and others have done well there.  Stop the dam pitty party for Larry here.  Man up you sniffeling little shit, and use your skills to prove them wrong and make a success of yourself anyway, and maybe they will come back to you when they are short handed or something if your skill set is as valuable as you say it is.   Tongue  You appear to me as someone whom your Mother taught manners, but did your Father teach you what you need to succeed in a community of real men ?  Get focussed on your life, and stop blaming people who did in fact do their jobs and found you lacking.  You want to blame a recording device ?  Should someone blame an EKG for exposing their heart condition, or didn't that person going into that test know something was wrong prior to getting to the hospital ?  We have no assurance here about you or any of these individuals posting about your true negative baggage you bring as an applicant, only the positives you post here about why you should have gotten the job.  You too also don't know who all of your competition was, and clearly somebody got the job.  Carry on Pilgrim !!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LALE
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 17
Joined: Jan 28th, 2008
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #13 - Feb 29th, 2008 at 4:49pm
Print Post  
NLG4U,

Are you a preacher or what. A man of few words you aint.
Amidst all your verbal diarrhoea I found it difficult to find your
point. Your posts are like novels written by an addict who cant
find his stash.

Not meaning to ad hom you - just make a point succintly.

Now, let me make mine in short: Polygraph is utter crap.
Why dont we use something simpler, like a coin toss. Its quicker and has about the same reliability rate. Waddya say bro ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TheNoLieGuy4U
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 97
Joined: Nov 7th, 2004
Re: A False Sense of Entitlement !!
Reply #14 - Feb 29th, 2008 at 7:36pm
Print Post  
     Hello LALE,

   First, I'm NOT Your Bro, My Bro's actually have a job, and ARE making a contribution, and did not have to try to find a way to cheat to do so.  Further, they do not have as their prophet a zealot such as GM who is no less than an obsessed waste of talent who blew his chance just prior to the war on terror occurring where he might have been able to find some use for his skills.  Also, that you can, or can not, follow what I write is ONLY a reflection on you and/or your limited mindset, and not on what was written.  Also, if you had read my former listing, you would know that simply repeating GM's mantra does not make polygraph crap.  Rather, it, as a functioning computer program, was put together by far better men and women than you, and who had in mind the best interests of our nation.  In closing, and once again, I just thank God these people did their jobs and screened out littly cry baby's like you with a false sense of entitlement for just showing up.  If your demonic counter measures work so dam well, then why don't you have a job with a Different agency you snot nosed little shit !!  Real Men would have been much more persistant in applying and focussed on success, rather than crawling into a ghetto of the mind as you lay in.   BTW, I have a college educated mind and this was as short and to the point as I could be.  Thanks  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint