Spark,

You are giving all appearances of having difficulties, not with this site, but our constitution.  Our constitution applies to all, including those suspected of criminal acts.  Our constitution also provides for freedom of speech among other topics.  Perhaps you would like to return to years past when other accepted behaviors now considered unacceptable where the norm.  Maybe we could have some McCarthy-like hearings for those that verbalize their disdain for polygraphy.  Maybe you could lynch us.

Let's just do away with investigation all together and utilize polygraphy to convict or vindicate all criminal suspects.  If that were to occur, I will let you know that I will be laughing my head off as you go to prison for an act you did not commit but were convicted of by the merits of polygraph.  Not such a good idea is it?

Blaming this site in the event a criminal “beats” a polygraph and goes free is pretty weak.

It is the job of the police to locate and collect evidence that will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the suspect is the one who committed the crime. They must be prepared to do that without a confession and without any information from the suspect.  A confession or other information is all you could ever get from a polygraph.

The Fifth Amendment grants the suspect the right to never say a word in his own defense; he is not compelled to speak during the investigation or even during his trial.  He does not need to offer an alibi or state his innocence; the law states that he is presumed innocent until the state proves he is guilty.  If your case is based on bringing the suspect into the interrogation room or the polygraph room and extracting a confession from him, then you don’t have much of a case to begin with.  Would it make my job easier if everyone who ever committed a crime came to the PD and voluntarily confessed?  Sure, but even if they don’t I still have a job to do.  I certainly shouldn’t expect even a single person to assist me in my investigation by providing a confession or other pertinent information.

For all the people who would blame this site, would you also blame the suspect’s attorney who advises him not to talk, or to talk about one subject but not another?  The attorney is also thwarting police efforts to trick the suspect into a confession, so is he being irresponsible?  If the attorney advises his client to go ahead with the interrogation but to refuse to answer specific questions, or if he warns him about what the interrogators will be looking for to see if he’s being truthful or not, is the attorney acting irresponsibly?  I certainly wouldn’t think so, because it’s my job to gather evidence without the shortcut of a suspect’s confession.

Confessions usually make our job easier.  But we should never count on them, and we should never get upset at anyone who counsels suspects not to be so stupid as to confess to the police.  Cops who “hate” defense attorneys for their advice not to make a statement are immature, in my opinion.  Same would hold true for anyone who “hates” the anti-polygraph community for their advice on how not to take or how to beat a polygraph.

Spark:

It's not a matter of the machine being broken. It's about an unreliable, faulty, good for nothing so-called testing procedure that lacks scientific validity.  The only thing weak around here is your arguement.

That's weak jeffy.  Your ahh shucks oh well someone else’s fault is typical.  It has always been someone else’s fault, just like the “machine was broke” when you failed your test right?

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spark wrote on Jul 15^th, 2005 at 3:45am:


If cops are letting people go simply because they "passed" a polygraph, then the problem lies with the police for their overreliance on the polygraph.

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Excellent point shadow...this is where we are at as a society…disgusting.

Of course, by writing “the unproven accusations are forgotten” I was indicating the lack of scientific control and the overall inadequacy of the “evidence” that either countermeasure detection or the polygraph itself is accurate.  I was certainly not implying that those people falsely accused of deception on a polygraph “test” quickly forget about the incident.

The apparent hostility many in the polygraph community have for George seems to weigh against them, in my opinion.  George is questioning the accuracy of a “test” which they claim is firmly grounded in science, and they often respond by launching a personal attack on him.  If their profession is based on solid science why would they be so reluctant to discuss its accuracy?

If someone at the scene of a motor vehicle accident questions how I determined they were at fault, I can and often do spend as much time as required explaining the science behind my conclusions.  If they doubt the scientific validity of my methods, I can easily explain to them the derivation of the mathematical equations I use and how they originated with basic Newtonian physics.  I can show them the measurements I took at the scene and they can feel free to go back to the scene and measure it all themselves to make sure I didn’t make a mistake.

What I can’t imagine is attacking them personally for daring to question me.  I can’t see myself accusing them of “being against law and order” or “not being patriotic” for questioning how I do my job.  However, if I was just making everything up as I went along, and I hadn’t done any real measurements or used any real equations, then I might get upset if someone starting questioning my methods.

That’s what I see when certain members of the polygraph community are so openly hostile.  They are reacting to the shouts that the Emperor has no clothes by going into the crowd and attacking the shouters.

TheNoLieGuy4You,

I would suggest to you (and others who may share your point of view) that truth-telling in the public interest is not unpatriotic.

The centerpiece of America's counterintelligence policy -- polygraph "testing"-- is a pseudoscientific fraud. It has no scientific basis and is easily defeated by simple countermeasures that polygraphers cannot reliably detect. Reliance on this bogus technology has caused considerable harm to both national security and individuals, examples of which are cited in Chapter 2 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

If anyone's patriotism is to be questioned--perhaps it is that of those who, in the face of overwhelming evidence of the polygraph's unreliability--(ab)use their positions of power to promote continued reliance on it.

The unproven accusations are forgotten ????????

George, were the unproven accusations against you FORGOTTEN ?  Certainly the FBI did not Hire YOU, or the LAPD want anything to do with you afterward !  Further, those writing in sit back and wait to see if they further progress in the hiring process, and all indicators seem that most will only get older and not wiser waiting for that call or rejection letter.  We have read of only a few success stories here about countermeasure successes, and mostly from those seeking low level positions, or child molesters on probation / parole.   

How do you measure your own success George when you had to leave your own country to find employment in a time when the USA has never needed more Arab / Iranian, & other regional languages in it's history and while engaged at war.   

When I add it all up it seems you really missed the boat in life and your advice to others is only seeking to serve your own self centered zealot revenge on the computer polygraph community.  You even have gotten into repeating the same old mantras over and over to the point that nobody can find any middle ground here.  You are clearly an obessed expat who has sought out a new socialist reality for your existance, a sad loss of American brain power.  It is not your Phd which opens doors alone, or the talents you possess; but rather the packaging of character you lack.  Want Proof ?  Imagine this website as your advising the enemies of the United States Government.  Not that what you say here all works, as has also been proven by those who have been detected or did not get hired despite your advice.  The TRUTH is Attempts Count in this world, and despite a fine I.Q., a Paper Phd degree, and some other training in the U.S. Army; your real character and obsession is revealed here for all to see.  You are enraged and blind to the point that you would even attempt to advise Child Molesters as allies. 

If I had a child who was ever molested by someone you advised, who in turn somehow got through a PDD exam , there is no place on earth I would not go to extract that foul piece of your brain which allowed that to occur.  As far as I am concerned the program of testing convicted to child molesters should be extended to include drug dealers as well; as the recitivism is so high for them.   

Lastly, Your future as an American is over !  I request that you renouce your citizenship and remain in socialist Holland with some liberal Dutch wife or something.  Better yet, why not convert to Islam and get four Islamic wives over there.  Whatever it takes, as when your country needed you most in time of war, you positioned yourself as "Undesireable" despite your skills, not because of a polygraph test or two, but in showing your obsessive compulsive addictive personality on this website.  You can't hide behind the mere "Wanting to share information" 1st amendment anymore, as when you side with and advise convicted felons you become an accessory to their future acts.   

Live with that George.  "The Unproven Accusations are Forgotten ? " I don't think so, and you won't be forgotten soon by our Government or Intel Aparatus'.  Enjoy each sunrise as the guy who missed his calling for his country when it needed him most, but now just can't use him due to self inflicted (security clearance) wounds !  Word !!!!


TheNoLieGuy4U
8)

It is misleading to state that polygraph examiners are skilled at detecting countermeasures when the only proof is that some of the examinees accused of employing countermeasures later admit to doing so.  The clear problem is a lack of scientific control on the method of verification.  A polygraph examiner faces no negative repercussions should he or she wrongfully accuse someone of using countermeasures.  Therefore, there is no incentive for them to withhold their accusations from anyone who arouses even the faintest suspicions that they may be employing countermeasures.

Ironically, the reasoning behind the countermeasure detection issue is remarkably similar to the reasoning behind the use of the polygraph itself:

Countermeasure Detection – Examiners are free to accuse anyone of countermeasure use.  Anyone who is accused and later admits that they were using countermeasures is held up as living proof that countermeasures can be detected.  The unproven accusations are forgotten.

Polygraph Accuracy – Examiners are free to accuse anyone of deception during the “test.”  Anyone accused of deception who later makes a damaging admission or is convicted in court is then held up as a shining example that polygraphs are accurate.  The unproven accusations are forgotten.

Regardless of the specific issue, the methodology is completely illogical and inaccurate.  If one hundred people are polygraphed, fifty of them are accused of countermeasure use, and five of them admit to it, pointing to those five as proof that countermeasures are detectable is laughable.  Likewise, if one hundred people are polygraphed, fifty of them are accused of deception, and five of them later admit to being deceptive, it is ridiculous to point to those five cases as proof that the polygraph can be used to detect deception.

Many fascinating posts.

On this Memorial Day, let us remember all who died, all who were willing to die, all who served, and all of the family members and friends who are affected by their decisions to serve.

Let us remember that our Founding Fathers of the Consititution who placed their life on the line for their signatures on a paper.

We all have ideas on how this is best served.   I protected the right to disagree with me my whole life.  I hope to give this right to my children when I leave.

The posters on this site for the most part (and only in very rare cases) are unedited.

How many sites (and countries) can boast of such freedom?  

Such freedom was paid for by so many people.

To all the service men and women and their families:  thankyou for the privilage of posting on an uncensored website my ideas.

Thank you.

Thenolieuy wrote to Darkcobra2005:

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Unfortunately that was the only intelligent portion of nolieguy's post and the only portion with which I am in agreement.  Without details I can vouch for the cobra's willingness to be reasonable and open.

As to the nolieguy:  I must ask, do you look for a conspiracy in all facets of your life?  Perhaps if you would care to reveal details of your life we all could similarly make assumptions about you.  Your misdirection regarding the topic of this thread is simply childish and moreover, lacking in intelligence.  I suppose in your view the exposure of, for example, the Iran Contra debacle was unpatriotic and against American values.  Now that's quite stupid isn't it?  We as Americans, anywhere, have the right to stand up and give voice when we see or percieve injustice.  Most of us on this board view polygraphy as an injustice and an obstacle to just decision making.  If you would care to add to that discussion by all means please do so.  If you care only to insult those of us in opposition of your views and attempt to spread rumor and misinformation please crawl back under the rock from which you slithered.

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 9:19pm:


Cobra,

Your Service, like George's, is deserving of respect and for that I commend you.  I'm not sure what you intrepreted as an attack; whether it was that I implied you were paranoid or I implied you were a polygrapher (I'm assuming you are).  I simply found the implications that on the basis of a person seeking employment overseas would even raise your eyebrows  a bit amazing, and was trying to see why and thought perhaps it may be because you hadn't been around the block much.  Obviously you have.  There are hundreds of thousands or loyal, patriotic Americans who work overseas, even a few in Holland.  That alone should not be any reason to question their love for the USA, which is one thing I assume we both have in common (yes one can be vehemontly opposed to polygraph and still be a loyal citizen; some think it is our patriotic duty to oppose polygraphics and expose the fraud it is).

Happy Memorial Day (I mean that sincerely).

J.

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 9:05am:

I think he didn't know about countermeasures until being accused of lieing in his first two polygraphs.

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 9:05am:

Once again, I don't think CM's applied to his own situation.  I'm sure we'd all like to get the polygraphers "side to our own story" but what are the chances of getting a truthful account of their version of "the facts"?

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 9:05am:

Please.  Perhaps he's trying to help hius country by exposing the corrupt polygraph process and how it can easily be defeated with minimal effort, while at the same time rule honorable and decent people deceptive on no rationale basis.

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 9:05am:

The country cast him aside and didn't want him.  He decided to use his skills where they were in desire.

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 9:05am:


Complete ignorance to confuse government economic policy (Socialist) with a governments form of government (democratic/monarchy etc).  So holland provides gov't paid helathcare?  So what.  Ever hear of medicaid?  I'm assuming you work fo rthe government in the US, and with government growth, more and more people are on US government paid helathcare.  Does that make the US socialist?  The Dutch government may own the railroad.  So what.  Ever hear of Amtrak?

Comparing Holland with France is indicitave that you've been to neither.  And even if they were similar -- so what.
TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 9:05am:

George left the service honorably.  And how does his exposure of government waste, fraud and abuse qualify him as a traitor in your eyes (your pathatec job being directly effected by his criticism aside?)

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 8:02am:


You were attacked not because you chose to stay in the USA but because you inferred George was a traitor for accpeting work overseas.  Only a paranoid polygrapher would see a remote possibility with this.  When you served your country, were you ever deployed overseas?  Or are you a New Yorker who has never been west of the Hudson, or somebody from Kansas who's never been west of Denver or east of St Louis?

DarkCobra2005,

By my reading of your response you seem like a reasonable type.  Can we agree that it is not unreasonable to look to George's under lying motives in creating this website, while aso looking at Polygraph itself in the abstract ?  A Jury can do so about the motives of a murderer in a murder case, as well as look at the evidence of murder itself.   

Did it strike you as odd that George talked about both the Examiners E. Youngblood and J. Trimarco as having failed him in their respective polygraph tests without any motive on their part.  I wondered why George did not get a re-test using his countermeasures to prove them wrong.   

My assesment of George is that he is a classic over achiever who probably never failed at anything in his life until he tried to outsmart these guys.  I further wondered if his countermeasures simply failed him then !  In reality we have only his half of the respective stories about his tests.  Otherwise, these Examiners seem to have well established careers with numerous awards.  Youngblood = The Examiner who tested and caught the greatest seriel killer of all time- The Angel of Death Case in L.A. .  Trimarco = a classic over achiever in his own right within the FBI, as well as now in the private sector.  Further, each of which are known to me to be good family men and patriots.  You and I seem to have less than this opinion of George, and we have only his words and actions to measure this without having met him. 

In my estimation, and in all that I have read on this site, George's writings and actions are indicative of someone who simply would not have worked out in the FBI and/or greater intelligence community.  Althought he swore an oath to the constitution of the United States as a U.S. Army Intelligence Officer, and further understood that he was tasked with protecting the sources and methods of intelligence gathering, he has attempted to "Compromise" that, a choice he must now live with.  It would not surprise me that when he sets foot on U.S. soil again that he may be facing some investigative efforts and/or prosecution; civil or criminal.   

In closing, can we agree that "Curious George" is a wasted life.  The irony is that his actions have now labled him as unreliable in the minds of any reasonable background investigator who might seek to hire him for intelligence work, regardless of his polygraph test.  The very mission we U.S. Taxpayers invested in for George's training ( Intelligence & Arab Language skills) can no longer be put to use by him as an American for his country.  Not because of the Polygraph he blames, but when looking at the overall picture of him, his methods, and timing !  There will never be another time in George's lifetime wherein his country would have needed him more, and his belief that only the polygraph stood in the way of the needs of the United States is naive, and deceptive to us all !   

I agree with you that George should stay in Holland or some other Socialist nation.  He is apparently more comfortable in a nation like that, or France, which has lost its / their respective identities to massive Arab / Islamic immigration.   

In the end I can only arrive that George I took the same oath as George, but I meant it with my heart, and I write you with the feeling that in doing so I, like you DarkCobra2005, am protecting my country (no substitutes) from all enemies foreign and domestic, for which George qualifies as both ! 

TheNoLieGuy4U

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 27^th, 2005 at 5:26pm:


I'd just like to add that, in my own experience, this sort of thing appears to be raw guesswork on the part of polygraph examiners (unless, of course, someone does something obvious like observably tensing, noisily modifying one's breath, etc.).  My evidence for this was my three polygraph examinations with NSA (which presumably hires competent examiners and has access to any and all research on countermeasure detection).  My use of countermeasures went entirely undetected through all three examinations, even though the first polygrapher noted what nice charts I was producing.  The second said nothing at all about it.

And to answer the inevitable questions: I didn't lie about countermeasure use (or about anything else, for that matter).  I was never accused of using them.  Prior to my third examination, the polygrapher noted that it's common for people, after coming back for multiple polygraph exams, to do some research, and asked me whether I had.  I chose to answer this question truthfully, and told him I was familiar with countermeasures.  He told me that if I used countermeasures, he'd kick me right out the door!   

It's worth noting that he didn't kick me out.

Can you actually blame the guy for leaving a country that he served, who in turned screwed him over solely on the basis of polygraph results?

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 2:56am:


Well then I guess we've never met.  The Polygrapher I had accused me of using CM's.  I'd never heard of them until afterwards when I looked them up.  I guess the contempt I had for you was misplaced.  I generalized and lumped you in with all <insert deragotory adjective here> polygraphers.  You are likley in the minority and for that I apoligize.

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 28^th, 2005 at 2:56am:


Anybody that cops to using CM's after visiting this site is either a complete idiot or simply brain dead.  I'd use them, probably not get caught and certainly never admit to using them.  Polygraph is a game.  It works to the polygraphers advantage like a hunter to sneak in at night, lie in wait and then beam the deer with headlights before ambushig it.  They don't like deer that are sneaky too (as in test subjects with knowledge).

I still think your suspicion of George simply because he is a US expatriot living in the Netherlands is highly prejudicial and based on ignorance (but not surprising based on your profession -- be suspicious of everybody and draw conclusions).  On that we will continue to disagree.

If you did a polygraph on an American that had lived in the Netherlands, and that was about all you knew from the hour interview, would you build control questions asking them if they'd ever smoked pot?  (assuming that all Americans in Holland are druggies, and would deny it?)

DarkCobra,

The FBI doesnt investigate anything. if you fail the poly you are done. it is an absurd practice for what is considered to be such an elite agency. Even polygraphers will admit that a multi issue screening CQT is one of the least accurate tests, tho people will debate what the actual % range is. 

What many of find repulsive is the serious consequences which are attached to someone calling you a liar with no evidence except an increased heart rate or sweat gland activity based on being asked an acccusatory question. My experience with the FBI leads me to believe that polygraphers assume without question that only lying produces the physiological response of sweating, breathing faster or your pulse increasing. Furthermore, they are always convinced that the control questions they develop after knowing you for 20 minutes are totally effective in twisting you to react to them if you are innocent. 2 very foolish and outlandish assumptions. I simply cannot believe that the FBI and other agencies rely on this. I think the real value of the polygraph is that a skilled interrogator can get into someone's kitchen that much easier if the prop of the polygraph has them thinking they cannot escape detection. this is a good thing if the person is guilty. but if the person is innocent, to cause them serious consequences because of this test alone is foolish and immoral.

I believe as countermeasures become more widely known, more polygraphers will "fish" for people to admit to their use of them (whether they are employing them or not).

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 27^th, 2005 at 5:26pm:


Once again, I say Bullshit.  You may accuse them of countermeasures.  in which case, their mistake was in confessing to using them and not using them in the first place.  I'll bet there is a large sample of people accused of CM's that indeed aren't using them.  They don't confess and are still DQ'd.  The fact that there are people who'd actually cough up the fact they indeed were using CM's indicates they were probably good people do begin with (a true sociopath wouldn't have confessed to using them).

If you get confessions for people using CM's, congratulations.  You've probably eliminated another nice guy who was nervous or skeptical about the system.  But I wouldn't place too much self confidence in your ability to detect CM's, but rather extract confessions from would-be "cheaters/bet hedgers/whatever you label them" subjects not strong enough to resist an interrogation.

How many times have you accused somebody of using CM's only to see their bewildered face in return?  Did you still DQ them for cheating?

Quote:

Are you afraid of the dikes breaking and being swept out to sea?  Or are you afraide of being run over by an old lady on her bicycle? 

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 27^th, 2005 at 3:35am:


Bullshit.  Most the time they simply make wild accusations.  I'll bet half the victims accused of using CM's don't even know what they are.

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 27^th, 2005 at 3:35am:


This (and the other post on the previous page you made a few days ago) is probably the stupidest line of logic I've seen.

So the guy works overseas... So what.  DarkCobra - you really should get out more.  What about the Netherlands differences from the US makes you suspicious?  The different food?  Time Zone?  Language?  Lattitude?  Climate?  Altitude?  Tolerance and respect for diversity?  Or their record for supporting human rights?

The fact that an American Citizen has a job overseas makes you suspicious?  Grow up.

darkcobra2005,

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darkcobra2005 wrote on May 27^th, 2005 at 3:35am:


This seems to be a commonly held view amongst polygraph examiners. Yet the polygraph community has offered no evidence to support its claimed ability to detect countermeasures.

If you were called upon to provide expert testimony in a court that a subject had employed polygraph countermeasures of the kind outlined in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, how would you go about doing that? What supporting documentation could you provide for your opinion that the subject had employed countermeasures?

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Actually, I did exhaust all administrative avenues of appeal with the FBI, LAPD, and Army. I chose not to become a plaintiff in the ongoing federal polygraph lawsuits currently being litigated by Mark Zaid largely because by the time they were filed, I no longer desired to work with the FBI.

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Yes, the Netherlands has differences with the United States, as do all foreign countries. If that makes you suspicious of me, so be it.

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This is a welcome step back from your earlier blanket statement that I "have views in opposition to those of the Citizens of the United States." No doubt, many US citizens will disagree with what AntiPolygraph.org advocates. Whether they are a majority or not, I do not know. But in my experience, when people are told the truth about polygraphy (including an honest explanation of CQT procedure), they tend to agree that polygraph screening is a bad idea.

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While polygraph results are generally not admissible as evidence in American courtrooms, I recognize that in a number of jurisdicitions, and in a variety of circumstances, they may be.

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I agree that the polygraph is no cureall, and that investigation is key. But I think it is risky to rely on polygraph results to narrow down the field, as police apparently did with frostibud108, who was wrongly cleared after "passing" a polygraph examination while using countermeasures.

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I agree with you that if polygraph screening is to be used at all, it should not be used as the sole determining factor in making hiring decisions. But for those who "fail," it generally is. No further investigation is made. The applicant is branded a liar and his application for employment is terminated. This is morally wrong and should be stopped.

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I don't recall your asking this question. I came to The Netherlands to pursue an employment opportunity. I'm not in some sort of self-imposed exile, if that's what you are thinking.

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I have little to add to that which already appears in my public statement. I would just remind you that the acting chief of the Defense Security Service's polygraph unit opined, "It does not appear that specific allegations have been provided by the other government agency (OGA) [that is, the FBI] upon which to recommend the conduct of a DSS polygraph examination." Unlike the FBI, the DSS did conduct a thorough background investigation of me. The Army investigator who interviewed me covered all points that were later stated as reasons for revoking my clearance and gave a positive recommendation.

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Of course you have the right to doubt me. And if I say anything with which you disagree, you also have the right to say so here and explain the basis of your disagreement (a right that I and other polygraph critics do not enjoy on the PolygraphPlace.com message board.)

I suppose expecting a little intelligence from you is too much to ask. I apologize for the mistake. It won't happen again.