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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial (Read 34485 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill Crider
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #15 - May 26th, 2005 at 5:23am
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wow, he failed an FBI poly. HE MUST BE GUILTY! THat's nothing, I failed 4 of them. I MUST BE REALLY GUILTY. How did the FBI know that I control the ecstacy trade of the entire eastern seaboard. That damn polygraph foiled me again.

DarkCobra, you are an idiot, wrapped in a moron, covered by a fool. take your polygraph and shove it up your @ss. 

Im just not feeling intellectual about this argument anymore. You idiots think those of us who get shafted out of careers by this moronic machine are just making it up for fun? wake up and smell the coffee.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #16 - May 26th, 2005 at 5:30am
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Skeptic,  Why don't we see what George has to say?  Afterall, Darkcobra posted to him and I think everyone who reads this board should allow Mr. Maschke the opportunity to respond.    You claim to work for the government.  Then you of all people know then that Mr. Maschke was presented an opportunity to explain, refute or mitigate the allegations which resulted in his clearance being revoked by the Army.  In "Too hot of a potato"  George clearly states that the FBI reported derogatory information about him to the Army.  If this is the case, and George states that the FBI's false allegations cost him his carrer, then he should have easily sued and won, as these "false" allegations would be a matter of record with FBI, Army, and the DSS.   

Lets review.  George claims he is a talented linguist with strong skills in several languages.  He should be in high demand, but instead, he applied only to the FBI.  Why not any of the other agencies which could use such talent?

FBI declined to re-test and did not offer employment to George, no matter how useful his skills were or how many letters of appreciation he received.   

Army revoked his clearance.  George would have you believe he was without opportunity to do anything about this.  Not true.  He absolutely had an opportunity to fight the action.   

LAPD declined to use his services.   

Quite a track record.  I think the truth lies in what that derogatory and allegedly flase information was.  But I doubt we, the readers of this site, wil ever know the truth.   

I also get a kick out of the way George and others immediately point to detractors, such as Dark Cobra and scream "Polygrapher!"  It seems so reminiscent of Joe McCarthy and "Communist!"   

One thing I do agree with.  The Polygraph is not perfect.  So if any rants and ravings of George and any other on this board can get the various agencies which use it to screen applicants or interrogate criminals to invest in research and develope a reliable tool, then I say it's a great thing.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #17 - May 26th, 2005 at 5:43am
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HSIA wrote on May 26th, 2005 at 5:30am:
Skeptic,  Why don't we see what George has to say?  Afterall, Darkcobra posted to him and I think everyone who reads this board should allow Mr. Maschke the opportunity to respond.


I think the long history of attacks on Mr. Maschke on this board make it very clear he's capable of defending himself Smiley  One does get tired of seeing the same refuted, wild accusations leveled at him over and over, especially as it becomes clear that's only done in an attempt by nervous polygraphers to discredit the information found here.

Quote:
You claim to work for the government.  Then you of all people know then that Mr. Maschke was presented an opportunity to explain, refute or mitigate the allegations which resulted in his clearance being revoked by the Army.


I don't work for the Army or any intelligence agencies.  However, I did go through the application process at NSA, which included three polygraphs.  I've been there as regards the polygraph process.

Moreover, George's situation is hardly unique.  With the FBI rejecting approximately half of its applicants due to failed polygraphs, and with that rejection showing up in NAC's, and with well-documented cases of ongoing suspicion cast on subjects due to that black mark, it makes little sense to throw extra suspicion on George's account.

Quote:
I also get a kick out of the way George and others immediately point to detractors, such as Dark Cobra and scream "Polygrapher!"  It seems so reminiscent of Joe McCarthy and "Communist!"


I think, perhaps, that reviewing the exchanges on this site over the last several years would cast a little more light on why such accusations are made, and how often they've hit the bulls-eye.  Those claims aren't made lightly, and they're usually accurate.  We've even elicited quite a few confessions. Smiley

I agree with your last point; however, I truly doubt that any bona-fide "lie detector" will ever be created.  There simply isn't a common, standard mental state that is associated with lying.  Much better to rely on thorough background checks and ongoing monitoring, even if it costs a lot more and takes more time.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #18 - May 26th, 2005 at 7:54am
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DarkCobra2005,

Thank you for your post.

Your criticism is very much similar to that which was leveled against Washington Times columnist Bill Gertz when he released Breakdown: How America’s Intelligence Failures Led to September 11th. Government and intel types assailed Gertz through proxies, claiming that the information in his book provided help to America’s enemies in understanding our intelligence agencies, blueprints for a second attack, etc. “That type of disclosure hinders the ability of our intelligence and law enforcement agencies to do their jobs,” the logic went.

Well, if the jobs were done properly, over 3,000 people wouldn’t have lost their lives. Bill Gertz (and many other rational people) didn’t trust giving the spooks a second shot in a criticism-free secret little world, and rightfully so. Public shame provides an impetus to do things better like few other motivating factors.

The same thing goes for polygraphy. “Don’t expose things because you are giving the bad guys information” is simply not going to fly here. Intelligence, government and law enforcement types have had their way long enough, and with disastrous results for both national security and individual reputations.

As George noted, there are a tremendous number of people who need the information provided on this site to protect themselves against false accusations because they are being judged by an invalid “test.”

For example, in many places, rape victims are often forced to take polygraph “tests” before the police will pursue their cases (fortunately, this practice has been outlawed in many states). Should we keep this information from them?   
 
Or how about individuals who work for a large Midwestern LE agency that reportedly conducts polygraph dragnets of MOS over scratches and other minor damage to patrol cars? Should I sleep well at night knowing that we withheld this information because criminals could make use of it as well?

Regrettably, there is no way to get countermeasure info to those who need it while preventing the bad guys from getting to it.

The only workable solution to the polygraph fraud is the abolition of polygraphy. When it comes to such frauds, sunlight is truly the best disinfectant. 

Quote:
When used properly, polygraph is a good tool and I have personally been involved in getting inocent subjects freed from prison and aquited prior to trial, (pre-trial hearings).  I know persons are arrested for crimes they do not commit, and should be afforded an honest polygraph test to aid them in their plight.


This argument would have helpful to you if debating polygraph matters twenty years ago. Against George and I, it floats like a lead balloon.   

In the mid 1980s, the polygraph debate pitted liberal champions of criminals’ rights and the right to lie against arch law and order conservatives and big business. While there was some discussion of accuracy when the EPPA was crafted, the primary issue was civil rights vs. employers’ rights.

The 21st century polygraph debate is far different. It simply pits those who realize that polygraphy is a pseudoscientific fraud against those who do not. George, myself and those who support us are not soft on crime. Putting things in terms of helping people go free from criminal accusations is not going to appease us. Setting people free from prisons on the basis of an unreliable “test” that is easily defeated is the last thing that should be going on in our criminal justice system

I can think of no more glaring abuse of polygraphy than it’s increasingly widespread use on convicted sex offenders. What bothers me most about this travesty of justice is not that these individuals are the lowest of the low in society, and that polygraphers can abuse them with impunity because the offenders have absolutely no credibility whatsoever. It is the fact that the results of a “test” completely unsupported by science (there is virtually universal agreement that polygraphy is invalid for screening purposes) are being relied on in determining whether or not these individuals are re-offending, often at the expensive of traditional investigative techniques.

Still, as long as polygraphs are being used against rape victims, law enforcement officers and others with good names, the answer is not to withhold information and let “the experts” handle things. 

The answer is to shout that the polygraph emperor is naked and to keep shouting it from the rooftops until people listen and the “evil art” is abolished.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #19 - May 26th, 2005 at 8:31am
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darkcobra2005 wrote on May 25th, 2005 at 8:31pm:
George,

I generally would not respond to you.  In this case you again stepped on my feelings.


I merely pointed out that you, who suggested that frostibud108's post on Overgrow.com might be a forgery, yourself forged posts on this message board (as thevet2/checking). While the former had no obvious motive for doing so, you, as a polygraph examiner, did. Don't you think that it was hypocritical for you to be suggesting that frostibud108's post might be bogus (an obviously inherent quality of anonymous posts) when you yourself have engaged in such fakery?

Quote:
Let us look at you for a bit.  You failed a FBI polygraph, then later after investigation by the Department of Defense, your security clearance was taken away by the Department of Defense.  They do not  take your FBI polygraph as a reason to remove a security clearance.    They do an indepth investigation and remove clearances.  You then moved outside the United States and have been knocking polygraph ever chance you get.


I have described this experience at length in my statement, Too Hot of a Potato: A Citizen Soldier's Encounter with the Polygraph. I am not ashamed to have failed an FBI polygraph examination, or that the Army moved to revoke my security clearance five years later (but only months after AntiPolygraph.org went on-line).

Quote:
Personal attacks are not what I enjoy doing, however the facts are the facts.  I believe you currenlty live in a country that has little to do with the United States, and you are expousing 1st amendment rights!!  Now that is interesting, you move out of the States and then claim the constitutional rights of all Americans, while living as a foreign national.


I am not "living as a foreign national." I remain a United States citizen.

Quote:
It appears that you do in fact have views in opposition to those of the Citizens of the United States or you would be here supporting your country.


What views are you suggesting I "do in fact" hold that are "in opposition" to those of United States citizens (as if all Americans shared a single viewpoint)?

Quote:
Now I have attacked your credibility again, so respond with more accusations....


If you wish to attack my credibility, a good place to start would be by pointing out anything I have said or written about polygraphy that you sincerely believe to be false or misleading, and supporting your argument with facts and reason.
  

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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #20 - May 26th, 2005 at 3:41pm
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Quote:
...I would be interested in your take on my comments to your reference to the "Menges post".


I don't understand what you meant by, "Mr. Menges as a polygraph advocate, you as a polygraph foe.  Potato vs Pototo…" If you'd care to explain, perhaps I could comment.

You had also asked, "Did not Joe Pot Head do exactly what Menges referred to as a 'countermeasure' that he learned on this site.. so are they not the same?" Although frostibud108's self-reported actions are consistent with both Mr. Menges' and AntiPolygraph.org's definitions of "countermeasures," that does not make our definitions the same. Mr. Menges' definition is restricted in scope to guilty persons, while AntiPolygraph.org's is not. This is not a trivial point.

You seem to have focused exclusively on my preliminary discussion of terminology rather than my arguments concerning the ethical considerations associated with providing countermeasure information to the public that are the core of my response to Mr. Menges.

You are mistaken if you suppose that we were unaware of or unconcerned about the possibilty that information provided by AntiPolygraph.org could be used by deceptive persons to pass their polygraph "tests" before we went on-line some five years ago. But we believe the greater public interest is better served by the truth about polygraphs (including countermeasures) being publicly told.
« Last Edit: May 27th, 2005 at 3:07pm by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #21 - May 27th, 2005 at 4:19am
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DarkCobra2005:

Why don't you answer this question for everyone on this site: Why did you initially post here pretending to be someone with very little knowledge about polygraphs and intentionally mislead others looking for sound, honest advice? You know, it's just that every time I read one of your posts I'm leary of you because of this unanswered question. 

You should be ashamed of yourself--questioning the patriotism of someone whom you've never even met based on a few slivers of information. Reminds me of the way polygraph examiners think they can peg a person based on a few questions, some time alone with them in a warm, sterile room and several worthless polygraph charts.

If you are indeed the fair person that you attempt to portray yourself to be, then why not use this opportunity to engage in  open, honest discussion about polygraphs instead of offering tacky personal insults.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #22 - May 27th, 2005 at 5:21am
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I suppose expecting a little intelligence from you is too much to ask. I apologize for the mistake. It won't happen again.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #23 - May 27th, 2005 at 1:00pm
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darkcobra2005,

Replies below:

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 27th, 2005 at 3:35am:
Polygraph examiners are skilled in detecting countermeasures and most do a good job at it.  Some are not so good.


This seems to be a commonly held view amongst polygraph examiners. Yet the polygraph community has offered no evidence to support its claimed ability to detect countermeasures.

If you were called upon to provide expert testimony in a court that a subject had employed polygraph countermeasures of the kind outlined in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, how would you go about doing that? What supporting documentation could you provide for your opinion that the subject had employed countermeasures?

Quote:
I have now read "A Citizen Soldier's Encounter with the Polygraph".  I do have questions regarding the decisions that were made by you in not filing any legal procedings to rectify what you describe as an injustice.  There are remedies you could have persued and did not.


Actually, I did exhaust all administrative avenues of appeal with the FBI, LAPD, and Army. I chose not to become a plaintiff in the ongoing federal polygraph lawsuits currently being litigated by Mark Zaid largely because by the time they were filed, I no longer desired to work with the FBI.

Quote:
I do apolagize for stating you are living as a foreign national, however you have moved to another country that has differences with the United States, that does concern me and causes me to beware of you.  That is a personal choice I make, not an accusation against you.


Yes, the Netherlands has differences with the United States, as do all foreign countries. If that makes you suspicious of me, so be it.

Quote:
I will not attack you, I will continue to point out that what you are advocating with this site is in opposition to the opinion of the majority of the citizens of this county.  Do I have studies that validate my point of view?  No, I only listen to persons and ask questions regarding the purpose of the antipolygraph.org site.  A majority of the persons I have discussed this with are oppositional to the site, of course they have not had a bad encounter with the polygraph.

For your information, I am talking about individuals with no knowledge of polygraph and limited exposure to criminal justice procedings.


This is a welcome step back from your earlier blanket statement that I "have views in opposition to those of the Citizens of the United States." No doubt, many US citizens will disagree with what AntiPolygraph.org advocates. Whether they are a majority or not, I do not know. But in my experience, when people are told the truth about polygraphy (including an honest explanation of CQT procedure), they tend to agree that polygraph screening is a bad idea.

Quote:
The statements that you make regarding courts not allowing polygraph are false.  I know, I have testified in several court procedings regarding the results of polygraph testing.  In some cases for the prosecution, in others for the defense.  I believe in justice for all, not some.


While polygraph results are generally not admissible as evidence in American courtrooms, I recognize that in a number of jurisdicitions, and in a variety of circumstances, they may be.

Quote:
Is polygraph the answer to all investigations?  No it is not and should never be considered to be.  Investigation is the key and polygraph then to narrow down the field and find the individual or individual's involved in a crime.


I agree that the polygraph is no cureall, and that investigation is key. But I think it is risky to rely on polygraph results to narrow down the field, as police apparently did with frostibud108, who was wrongly cleared after "passing" a polygraph examination while using countermeasures.

Quote:
It is valuable in screening applications also, but should not be used as the sole determining factor in the hiring process.  It is a "Tool" that if used properly can assist in the investigation of backgrounds as well as crimes.


I agree with you that if polygraph screening is to be used at all, it should not be used as the sole determining factor in making hiring decisions. But for those who "fail," it generally is. No further investigation is made. The applicant is branded a liar and his application for employment is terminated. This is morally wrong and should be stopped.

Quote:
You still have not answered the question regarding why you left the United States and now reside in another country.


I don't recall your asking this question. I came to The Netherlands to pursue an employment opportunity. I'm not in some sort of self-imposed exile, if that's what you are thinking.

Quote:
Your reference to your soldiers story is interesting and somewhat informative.  I would like to know what in particular the investigators found in your background that caused your clearance to be revoked and why the law enforcement agency found you to be unsuitable.  It may be that you cannot answer these questions because you don't have a ready answer,  and the information has not been made available to you  That would be an acceptable explination, it should be stated in that manner, rather than as an accusation against all polygraph examiners.


I have little to add to that which already appears in my public statement. I would just remind you that the acting chief of the Defense Security Service's polygraph unit opined, "It does not appear that specific allegations have been provided by the other government agency (OGA) [that is, the FBI] upon which to recommend the conduct of a DSS polygraph examination." Unlike the FBI, the DSS did conduct a thorough background investigation of me. The Army investigator who interviewed me covered all points that were later stated as reasons for revoking my clearance and gave a positive recommendation.

Quote:
This is not meant as an attack on you, it is questions that I do have for which there may be no answer.  I will still have the same questions on my mind when I read posts from you on this site.   That is my right.


Of course you have the right to doubt me. And if I say anything with which you disagree, you also have the right to say so here and explain the basis of your disagreement (a right that I and other polygraph critics do not enjoy on the PolygraphPlace.com message board.)
« Last Edit: May 27th, 2005 at 3:05pm by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #24 - May 27th, 2005 at 4:01pm
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darkcobra2005 wrote on May 27th, 2005 at 3:35am:
Polygraph examiners are skilled in detecting countermeasures and most do a good job at it.  Some are not so good.  


Bullshit.  Most the time they simply make wild accusations.  I'll bet half the victims accused of using CM's don't even know what they are.

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 27th, 2005 at 3:35am:

I do apolagize for stating you are living as a foreign national, however you have moved to another country that has differences with the United States, that does concern me and causes me to beware of you.


This (and the other post on the previous page you made a few days ago) is probably the stupidest line of logic I've seen.

So the guy works overseas... So what.  DarkCobra - you really should get out more.  What about the Netherlands differences from the US makes you suspicious?  The different food?  Time Zone?  Language?  Lattitude?  Climate?  Altitude?  Tolerance and respect for diversity?  Or their record for supporting human rights?

The fact that an American Citizen has a job overseas makes you suspicious?  Grow up.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #25 - May 27th, 2005 at 6:01pm
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darkcobra2005 wrote on May 27th, 2005 at 5:26pm:
Regarding abilities to detect countermeasures:  

We are not perfect in this area, however we have been detecting numerous counter measures and the subjects tested have admitted to this.  They, in many cases have recieved information from antipolygraph.org.  This is disturbing to me because most of the subjects are otherwise good candidates.  The use of counter measures does disqualify them from further consideration which is unfortunate.  


Once again, I say Bullshit.  You may accuse them of countermeasures.  in which case, their mistake was in confessing to using them and not using them in the first place.  I'll bet there is a large sample of people accused of CM's that indeed aren't using them.  They don't confess and are still DQ'd.  The fact that there are people who'd actually cough up the fact they indeed were using CM's indicates they were probably good people do begin with (a true sociopath wouldn't have confessed to using them).

If you get confessions for people using CM's, congratulations.  You've probably eliminated another nice guy who was nervous or skeptical about the system.  But I wouldn't place too much self confidence in your ability to detect CM's, but rather extract confessions from would-be "cheaters/bet hedgers/whatever you label them" subjects not strong enough to resist an interrogation.

How many times have you accused somebody of using CM's only to see their bewildered face in return?  Did you still DQ them for cheating?

Quote:
I respect your service to your country and currently do have thoughts about living in the Netherlands that cause me concern.  Again, this is my issue, not yours and I will resolve it in time I am sure.

Are you afraid of the dikes breaking and being swept out to sea?  Or are you afraide of being run over by an old lady on her bicycle?  Grin
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #26 - May 27th, 2005 at 7:08pm
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I believe as countermeasures become more widely known, more polygraphers will "fish" for people to admit to their use of them (whether they are employing them or not).
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #27 - May 27th, 2005 at 8:17pm
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DarkCobra,

The FBI doesnt investigate anything. if you fail the poly you are done. it is an absurd practice for what is considered to be such an elite agency. Even polygraphers will admit that a multi issue screening CQT is one of the least accurate tests, tho people will debate what the actual % range is. 

What many of find repulsive is the serious consequences which are attached to someone calling you a liar with no evidence except an increased heart rate or sweat gland activity based on being asked an acccusatory question. My experience with the FBI leads me to believe that polygraphers assume without question that only lying produces the physiological response of sweating, breathing faster or your pulse increasing. Furthermore, they are always convinced that the control questions they develop after knowing you for 20 minutes are totally effective in twisting you to react to them if you are innocent. 2 very foolish and outlandish assumptions. I simply cannot believe that the FBI and other agencies rely on this. I think the real value of the polygraph is that a skilled interrogator can get into someone's kitchen that much easier if the prop of the polygraph has them thinking they cannot escape detection. this is a good thing if the person is guilty. but if the person is innocent, to cause them serious consequences because of this test alone is foolish and immoral.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #28 - May 28th, 2005 at 3:43am
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darkcobra2005 wrote on May 28th, 2005 at 2:56am:
I do not interrogate regarding use of countermeasures, or during employment screening.


Well then I guess we've never met.  The Polygrapher I had accused me of using CM's.  I'd never heard of them until afterwards when I looked them up.  I guess the contempt I had for you was misplaced.  I generalized and lumped you in with all <insert deragotory adjective here> polygraphers.  You are likley in the minority and for that I apoligize.

darkcobra2005 wrote on May 28th, 2005 at 2:56am:

I do obtain admissions regarding use of countermeasures from individuals I have tested, I ask what they did and how, on what questions and then verify that I am seeing the same responses to the same questions they have identified.  There is no pressure applied to the individual.  


Anybody that cops to using CM's after visiting this site is either a complete idiot or simply brain dead.  I'd use them, probably not get caught and certainly never admit to using them.  Polygraph is a game.  It works to the polygraphers advantage like a hunter to sneak in at night, lie in wait and then beam the deer with headlights before ambushig it.  They don't like deer that are sneaky too (as in test subjects with knowledge).

I still think your suspicion of George simply because he is a US expatriot living in the Netherlands is highly prejudicial and based on ignorance (but not surprising based on your profession -- be suspicious of everybody and draw conclusions).  On that we will continue to disagree.

If you did a polygraph on an American that had lived in the Netherlands, and that was about all you knew from the hour interview, would you build control questions asking them if they'd ever smoked pot?  (assuming that all Americans in Holland are druggies, and would deny it?)
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #29 - May 28th, 2005 at 5:00am
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Can you actually blame the guy for leaving a country that he served, who in turned screwed him over solely on the basis of polygraph results?
  
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