Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 4^th, 2011 at 1:45am:


Probably one only needs a 2-year associate degree to be a state trooper in VT!   

Administrator wrote on Jan 17^th, 2017 at 7:42am:


Isn't that quickfix's principal "raison d'etre" ?  lol

xenonman wrote on Jan 17^th, 2017 at 7:16am:


Please refrain from personal attacks/name-calling on this forum.

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When you say "permanently banned from employment in MO", I presume that you're referring to state LEO positions in the "Show Me State"? 

Just don't forget:  It's not only the polygraph; it's also the BI's and the jerks who conduct them, as well as those idiots in the IC who make decisions based upon them.

quickfix wrote on Jan 11^th, 2017 at 8:11pm:


Of course, back when I suffered the "polygraph", the liars in the IC (such as "quickfix", no doubt) were insisting that polygraph CM's simply did not exist; that they were merely a myth spread by the KGB to encourage more "moles"!

quickfix wrote on Jan 12^th, 2017 at 10:21pm:


In your case, quickfix, I'd sooner write to info@fsb.gov.ru or info@svr.gov.ru .

Wandersmann wrote on Jan 11^th, 2017 at 3:05am:


Unfortunately, it's the vile scum like "quickfix" who are giving the polygraphs and running the BI's throughout the IC.   

quickfix wrote on Jan 12^th, 2017 at 10:21pm:


Hey "Quickfix", someone should turn your name in, to: Info@svr.gov.ru !

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That's pretty sad news to be coming from the supposedly "progressive" state which gave us Bernie Sanders!

quickfix wrote on Jan 12^th, 2017 at 10:21pm:


Will do.  It's like a prisoner in the gulag complaining to Stalin, but I will continue to do so.  I like the idea of running for office.  Thanks.

Are you done with your blather?  You don't like what we do?  Write your congressman.  Or better yet, run for office.

quickfix wrote on Jan 11^th, 2017 at 8:11pm:


Quickfix, I have to give you credit.  Your post was cogent and well written and did not include your normal ad hominem attacks.  That being said, I vehemently disagree with everything you said.  I think the biggest problem lies with the fact that you and I come from two different planets.  Although I am part of the old baby-boomer generation that certainly was far from perfect, you are obviously one of the disrespectful, self-serving, self-righteous, narcissistic millennial generation  who throws around words like honesty and integrity without a real clue as to what they mean. 

A person's hard earned reputation is not earned on a morning polygraph exam, it is the product of years of proving one's self and suffering by doing the right thing.  It was so important that our founding fathers believed in dueling to the death if anyone ever questioned their integrity.  To think that a lifetime of proven honesty can be completely erased by one bad polygraph session is insane.  
You say that no one is ruined by the polygraph, that is false.  You are like a bomber pilot who never sees the carnage  he left behind.  I know of people suffering physical, emotional, financial and other significant damage because of the polygraph hell they have endured.  For your information, people work their asses off and dedicate their lives to be law enforcement officers and intelligence officials.  Taking that away from them is no different that taking away a license to practice law from an attorney or taking away a license to practice medicine from a doctor.  Like you yourself said, shoveling elephant crap at the circus is about all that is left for someone who dedicated their life to L.E. or intelligence only to have it taken away by your witchcraft.  

Here is the ultimate kicker -  I know of two people, there are many more, who have been fired for cause, for lying or falsifying records.  They were PROVEN GUILTY and ultimately admitted fault.  Despite this, they were both able to work for the same agency that fired them as contractors with a Secret and TS clearance despite being fired for cause.  Someone who fails a polygraph, no proof of any wrong doing, no due process, is not only fired, but complete access is denied and they can't even come back to the same building as a janitor.  Soviet-style banishment for life!  How can this be ?  There is only one explanation.  You polygraph clowns are so determined to commit your profitable fraud that you will go to any lengths and ruin whoever is convenient to justify your miserable profession.  I advise people not to use countermeasures or research the polygraph not because I morally object, but because banishing people for countermeasures is the polygraph industry's fraud d'jour.  In reality, people who use countermeasures are honorable because they are resisting tyranny and you lack honesty and integrity because you intentionally ruin innocent people for personal gain.  You bear false witness.  Anyone who realizes that a lifetime of proven integrity can be washed away by an hour on the box is justified to do what they need to do.  Using the polygraph to determine truth is no different than throwing dice or flipping a coin to determine truth.  If I knew I was honest and had nothing to hide, yet my sacred honor was going to be measured by a roll of the dice I would be justified to roll loaded dice.  Your stupid polygraph game has nothing to do with honesty or integrity.

The fact that more people are now being ousted because of alleged, yet unproven, countermeasures than DI or inconclusive shows that people are figuring out your fraud.  You have proven liars like DCI Clapper protecting you for now and your billion dollar scam will continue.  Clapper and all of the moral cowards who head our executive branch agencies don't have the moral courage to take on your industry and are happy to support you for self-gain.  If people of honor and integrity in authority ever figure out what is going down, you will be done.  Heads will roll.  All of you should either be imprisoned or sued out of existence.  You guys are on the rise right now, but the body-count of innocent victims is also rising.  You should worry.

"Failure" is a broad term, and can mean any result other than "NSR/NDI", so allow me to reword your question to "can a truthful person not favorably complete an exam?" to account for the inconclusive as well as the significant response/deception indicated.

The polygraph is not a "lie detector".  It is a diagnostic instrument which monitors and records physiological responses to applied stimuli.  The are several reasons why someone's exam results may not be favorable.  When significant and specific responses are noted at a particular relevant question, it means that the examinee is thinking about something specific every time examinee hears that question.  It might be relevant, it might not be relevant, but what for whatever the reaon, it is significant to that examinee.  It might be because the examinee is indeed lying to the relevant issue, or has some concern that examinee thinks is relevant but may not be to the examiner.  If examinee chooses not to discuss why that question is significant, then it ends there.  It is examinee's responsibility to discuss any and all concerns, regardless of relevance.  It's called  "cooperate and graduate".

With that said, when someone comes to the polygraph room with the intent to engage in countermeasures, does not successfully complete the polygraph, then comes on this site to piss and moan about it, they get NO SYMPATHY from me.  They are indeed stupid;  stupid for believing that could pull one over on us.  I will continue to mock them at every opportunity.  I couldn't give a rat's ass how many mouths they have to feed, or whether their dream is shattered.  They came into the polygraph room with eyes open and aware of the consequences of getting caught using CMs.  If they were lying about the relevant questions, then they "failed" anyway.  If they were indeed truthful (primarily in premployment) and tried to "help themselves" pass, they have no one to blame but themselves.  Period.

BTW, no one's life is "ruined".  There is no shortage of jobs out there that don't require the passing of a polygraph;  and quite frankly, anyone who has to resort to cheating on a polygraph (that's what usings CMs is, cheating), displays a lack honesty and integrity that SHOULD disqualify them from the job sought.

Wandersmann wrote on Jan 11^th, 2017 at 3:05am:

This is a clear question. Aunty would also like to know your answer.

quickfix wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 6:39pm:


How heartless.  Here's a guy who probably has mouths to feed and worked hard to get where he is and Quickfix thinks that ruining a man's life is funny.  These miscreants in the polygraph field are despicable.
Quickfix, let me ask you a simple yes or no question that I doubt you are capable of answering......

Is it possible for a person who is telling the truth to fail a polygraph exam?

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The circus always needs someone to walk behind the elephants with the big shovel.
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And you got caught..you got what you deserved.
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Then why did you feel it necessary to control your breathing?  Oh wait, I already know...because you're stupid!

Plain and simple, it is a pseudoscience. I am permanently banned from employment in Missouri and who knows where else, because I failed a test. It is true, I tried to control my breathing because it spiked. What makes it ridiculous is that it spiked because of a perception I had in my mind, not related to the question. I answered the questions honestly. I was so honest with these people, by the time they had written down everything I had done I looked like a Somalian pirate. I had nothing left to hide. I think my tester knew this too, he tried to work with me. He asked me the set of questions 5 times. The question I failed on, "have you ever committed a serious crime"? I haven't. What makes this deal so much sweater is one of the guys who I can assume passed said something in the waiting room. "I don't really care if I get this job or not, if I don't, I will just go back to working at the jail. I suspect only a punk would say something like that while in the application process of a job, it sounded so juvenile. Future Missouri State Trooper, right there.

depressed wrote on Jun 9^th, 2011 at 5:13am:



I cannot answer for "all agencies".  I do not agree with your statement regarding only taking bottom of the barrel candidates.  The ones selected are actually top notch individuals in most cases.

Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 7^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:



Unfortunately, we all know that that is not the case. The poly is used as the say all be all, and once you fail, regardless if you were Jesus Christ himself, it's over. So why then do agencies use this failed means of determining the future of individuals who, in most cases, are extremely qualified? This only results in taking the bottom of the barrel candidates...

Fair Chance, 

Thank you for being open minded.  I do try to be straight forward and honest.  I do agree with your statement regarding employment screening.   

Screening is the least accurate testing we do, and if employers make decisions based solely on polygraph results, we loose good candidates.  I advocate using background investigators to discover new information if an applicant shows deception and there are no admissions.

We may be able to attend a weekend BBQ, I'm not oppositional.  I enjoy learning from the postings on this web site.  It causes me to be careful and use caution before labeling anyone as untruthful.  I am sure I do make errors on occasion.

Dear Bill_Brown,

You are straightforward in your presentations and your confidence in your craft. I do not agree with you or your representations but I do appreciate your effort to describe why you believe in your results.

We will let the readers decide for themselves.

I do think that the the polygraph exam used in applicant prescreening is counterproductive and inefficient.  Time will tell.  The federal applicants were astronomical a few years ago which made any collateral damage to failed applicants inconsequential. I believe this country will no longer find that the case in the future.

Nice to joust with you. We can agree to disagree, we would not probably share a barbecue this weekend. A discussion can be had in this country without people calling each other an idiot just because they believe in what they believe in.

Regards.

I am not positive they used countermeasures, I suspect it based on the tracings I am observing. 


Stefano, 

I said it is suspected and that is what I put in the report.  I try not to be arrogant.  The tracings I have observed when persons use mental countermeasures are distinctive in some aspects, and remember these individuals are not "trained" in their usage.  The term "Haphazard" would apply.

Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 6^th, 2011 at 11:58am:

This is speculative and arrogant. You cannot detect mental countermeasures and it's folly for you to put such in a report.

Sergeant, 

With intoxalyzer it does the calculations.  With polygraph I do the calculations.  If I observe a person manipulating the tracings by physical movements, I do get a score which indicates "Inconclusive" in most cases.  I do mention in the report that countermeasures were used and elaborate on what I observed. 

If the subject is using mental countermeasures, I cannot see, hear or know for sure.  There are attributes in the tracings which indicate countermeasures were used, and I will articulate this in the report also.  I am not positive they used countermeasures, I suspect it based on the tracings I am observing.  

Certain anomalies in the tracings are present on persons using mental countermeasures that are consistent with mental countermeasures.  I cannot, in all good faith, tell you that we catch all persons that are using these tactics, we do catch some. 

If you are very educated in polygraph and have practiced with an examiner or with an instrument, and are able to produce "normal" charts, I cannot detect the countermeasures.  

I don't recall in my long career anyone being arrested based only on a polygraph result.    I never make a WAG on polygraph, I use chart interpretation and the resultant score to make any decision.  

With polygraph the score (numerical) determines the outcome.  A Significant Response indicates deception, No Significant Response indicates truthful, and anything in between is considered Inconclusive.  When countermeasures are used, we "generally" have an Inconclusive score.  Therefore I call it Inconclusive.  The observation of countermeasures are placed in the report.