I'll tell you something the secret is to lie, lie, lie, lie, because the real honest FBI agents never get the job...

Always lie...

If the president can do it, so can you!

*wink*

Torpedo wrote on Feb 26^th, 2003 at 12:59am:


I don't mind discussing it at all.  I've taken three polygraphs for employment with the National Security Agency.  All three were Relevant/Irrelevant format.  I don't really know whether I "passed" or "failed", as I understand NSA uses the polygraph primarily as a means to elicit confessions, and although I went through three post-test interrogations, I was never explicitly told I "failed".  My understanding now is that most people applying at NSA face post-test interrogations and multiple polygraphs.

I used countermeasures during the first two polygraphs on sacrifice relevant questions and on a breakdown test.  Not surprisingly (for an NSA R/I exam) the countermeasures didn't help on the regular exam -- I got interrogated anyway.  They had the clear effect of foiling the breakdown exam, though, and there was no indication of detection whatsoever.

The last exam was the only time I was explicitly asked about research into polygraphy, at which time I volunteered my knowledge of the polygraph and countermeasures.  At no time during any of the exams did I answer any questions dishonestly.

After the third exam, I waited about a month and a half, and having heard nothing further (despite two attempts to contact the NSA and discover my status) proceeded to withdraw my application, primarily because I didn't want the joy of going through the same experience every five years or so.  Their response indicated to me that I had not been disqualified from the application process at the time, so presumably (despite all the fun interrogations) I passed.

Skeptic

Skeptic, I respectfully request your assistance.  I could probably go back through all of the postings in the archives of this site, but I am sure you can answer this quickly and succintly. I appreciate you saving me the work.   What exactly is your personal experience with polygraph?  Have you ever taken a polygraph? Did you pass? Did you fail? Are you a former polygraph examiner ? Have you passed a polygraph in which you knew you were untruthful by using countermeasures.  Just wondering...Thanks for your quick reply.

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Congratulations on passing.  I think we all here agree that honesty in response to relevant questions asked by background investigators/counterintelligence personnel is important.

Unfortunately, honesty does not appear to be a sufficient means to "pass" a polygraph in many cases.  I'm glad it was in yours.

Best of luck in your future endeavors.

Skeptic

I just recently passed the FBI polygraph test and I think it was so easy.   As an Asian, I passed, I think every body in here will be passed.   The key is to answer honestly with the questions-whether you did or didn't, tell the agent up-front.

Wish you guys luck.  Remember be honest.

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What aspect(s) of understanding the lie behind the lie detector and seeking to eliminate this unscientific fraud from the pre-employment screening and counter-intelligence screening is (are) insane, exactly?

Your second thought has validity: Any entity that would rely on the polygraph to select the 'best and brightest' should be evaluated according to the travesty of that policy.

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Why?

Anyone who is not "distrustful" of ALL government agencies is a fool.

This thread seems to ramble on and on with conspiracy theories and people's insane notions that polygraph screening must be defated with scientific knowledge and the reading of some book.  In all honesty, if you want to work for any agency but are so distrustful of them that you buy into this horse dung, then you should rethink your career goals.

Duc, I liked your postings, but please keep in mind that some details of your experiences are better left undisclosed.

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Oh, please.  Much of the information on polygraphy presented on Antipolygraph.org is the most thoroughly-researched and referenced you can find.  

On the other hand, the lowbrow quality of your posts, polylawman (I doubt you'd know good research if it bit you in the behind) is pretty much the average of what we see here from polygraph proponents.

Do yourself a favor and don't cast that stone.

Skeptic

Thats realy good "I read something somewhere" This post is indicative of the entire site

I read somewhere that 40% of the total FBI workforce (special agent only) have less than 5 years experiences. That would mean most of the FBI polygraphers are new at their positions or as in the Hanssen report by Judge Webster, mentioned that most agents considered security-related duties like polygraphy as dead-ends jobs, meaning the best and brightest agents are not being used. 
BTW, requiring a college degrees will disqualify most military personnel, who have the field experiences and combat experiences for some.

Dear Accesspoint,

Please download the "Lie Behind the Lie Detector."  Skip to chapter 3 and 4.  It will be worth your time.

Regards.

Could someone tell me in laymans terms what a "control" question is and maybe an example?

they would not tell me which specific questions i failed but they did say that I was found to be deceptive in multiple areas.There were really only two areas which could maybe be broken into four , drug use, drug selling, selling sensitive information, and belonging to a group with ill intent toward the govenrment. I am I have no real way of knowing which areas I failed since I have not done any of these.

I have attempted to make contact with Mr. Zaid I am merely waiting for a reply. I do intend to appeal the decision but from what I have read on this site I do not hold much hope but if by some glimmer of hope I should get a retest I will be using countermeasures. 
In reponse to the questions posted about my accounts, I found out the following day that I failed, anyone familiar with polygraphs knows that an examiner knows right away whether the subject has passed or failed. It is my understanding that the FBI polygrapher will say that it has to be sent to washington for verification before results are made available to the examinee.
As far as what exact control questions are, there were several  : have you ever told a lie to an employer to save yourself from discipline? Is there anything in your background that if you told us about you could be arrested for? there were two others but I can't remember them however, when compared to the relevant questions they are transparent.
On another note I have contacted the LAPD about employment and they told me that a failed polygraph would definitely be taken into account in any applicant hiring process.  I also spoke with Customs because I am a commercial rated pilot and I wanted to fly for them but a recruiter I spoke with said in no uncertain terms that I would not be considered for employment with the polygraph failure on my record.

jrjr2,

Be sure to appeal the polygrapher's decision in writing and request a re-"test." Don't just accept the FBI's slander against you. See Chapter 5 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for some ideas on how to proceed.

You might also wish to contact Mark Zaid, an attorney who is representing a number of federal law enforcement applicants who were similarly denied employment because of the divinations of polygraph chartgazers. Mr. Zaid's e-mail address is ZaidMS@aol.com.

jrjr2-

How long did it take you to get your results?  Do you know which questions you failed?

Very good luck on your appeal.

I am so sorry to hear about your test.  I facing a test in the near future.  If you feel comfortable, would you please give details about the process you went through (pre-test, control vs. relevent questions, post-test, etc.)?  I hope you decide to appeal and get a retest.  Good luck to you.

I failed my FBI polygraph exam two days ago. I am not resentful because I went in with my eyes open well aware of the failings of the polygraph but, I am extremely crestfallen and disappointed  because this is all I have ever wanted  to do and now .....
I want to say that my previous experience with polygraphs ( I built one as a child) and what I read here gave me the misguided confidence in my ability to pass without employing any countermeasures, that was a mistake. I unlike the person that began this thread was able to recognize the relevant questions and the control questions but as I stated earlier I chose not to strengthen my responses.  I guess I should have prefaced this by saying I have never  done an illegal drug nor have I facilitated the sale or transport of drugs. Also, I am not nor have I ever been a member of a group working toward the overthrow of my country. These were the categories tested. 
As expected I was boxed in on the control questions and in my opinion I still felt no stress in answering the questions put to me. The examiner albeit friendly, did attempt to deceive me about the importance of the control questions and at the end he would not tell me whether I passed but he did lead me to believe that I had with the statement
"Hopefully we will be able to work together in the future." 
As I said before I am not bitter about my experience because throughout the process I was treated with respect and courtesy and I can't fault the polygrapher for doing his job.
Duc748, no offense, seems to lack objectivity or rather wears the proverbial rose-covered glasses. That was not an attempt to cast an aspersion but, he strikes me as the type of individual who would say that if the polygraph found me to be deceptive in all of those categories (which for anyone who knows me finds this laughable) then there must be something to it.
P.S. In regard to the physical fittness test my recruiter told me it was only a mile and a half with a time requirement  between eleven minutes and thirty seconds and twelve minutes and forty seconds, anything over eleven thirty would require that you repeat the run once more before your class date to make sure you were still within acceptable parameters. I have verified this with my cousin who is an agent supervisor. I was scheduled to take it on friday, perhaps the requirements changed. Now at Quantico it is a two mile course. 

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Duc748,

You obviously have some deep resentment for what this site stands for. 

There are NO "gloom and doom' speechs delivered on this site. The mission of this site is to present information that can help people be successful in a polygraph examination. 

No one on this websites makes you "feel" like you have to employ countermeasures to pass a polygraph. The decision to use countermeasures is left up to the individual. 

Polygraph is NOT "science", it is a fraudulent presentation that attempts to convince examinees that the polygraph is all knowing and that any "deceptive" statements will cause changes in your vital signs and that these recorded changes are HIGHLY ACCURATE and can't be manipulated by any countermeasures.

A majority of the people on this site are honest, hard working individuals. The polygraph cost many of us a chance at a career that we worked hard to obtain. You read the personal statements of Mark Mallah. Captain Jones, Brad Balfour, and False +. These are real people who saw their integrity challenged and records blemished becuase of a "pseudoscience". 

You also may remember Aldrich Ames, He PASSED his polygraph and was CONVICTED of being a spy. Duc748, this man was LYING and still PASSED his polygraph. Wen Ho Lee PASSED more than one polygraph and was found DECEPTIVE regardless. Dr. Drew Richardson and Dr. Sheila Reed, who are both top polygraph experts have publicy challenged the efficacy and usefulness of polygraphy testing. 

While you passed yours, many who seek this site out have not. You have seen my credo, Knowledge is Power, Educate Yourself, this site provides EDUCATION to those facing a polygraph "test". This site provides an education into polygraphy. This site gives an overview of what occurs during the "exam", how the polygrapher needs to instill fear and create stress so that they can have a false sense of "control" and manipulate examinees into thinking that polygraphy is all knowing and seldom is wrong. You seem to think that this site promotes "cheating the system", I couldn't disagree more. This site gives people options and an opportunity to be successful in a polygraph. As I said at the top of this post, If someone chooses to use countermeasures, it is their personal decision, not this websites. 

Fred F.

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The polygrapher made mention of the fact that there are sites (like this one) out on the web, and that I may have read up on polygrapher, but not to use the countermeasures; Because if you are suspected of using them, you are automatically DQ'd. I had nothing to hide, so didn't bother. I passed. That was as far as the discussion went. I see no reason to say that you have or have not read this stuff on the internet.

What you have to remember about this site, is that these guys are personally biased against polygraphy. They will give you the gloom and doom speech and make you "feel" that the only way to pass the polygraph is to "use countermeasures". Call it what they will, they're still trying to cheat the system. I say ignore them and do what you know is right. 

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Outside, on a 1/4 mile track. They said to run on a track from now on to get used to it, since that's what you run on at Quantico.

Thank you for answering my questions Duc.  Did the polygrapher think it odd that you did some research before you test?  I have read on other threads that this will cause a red flag to go up and set up suspicion right from the start.  I want to be honest with the polygrapher, but will telling them that I am looking into this effect how they view me?

thanks again,
fifazip

oh yeah, was your 2 mile run inside or outside?

Duc748,

Fifazip is trying to figure out whether your polygrapher "was completely honest with you about this whole process." Far from being frivolous, the questions that I raised will help thinking readers to draw a rational conclusion regarding this point.

Your unwillingness to address these questions and your know-nothing suggestion to "ignore what you read here on this site" may tell readers something about your own thought process, but it tells them nothing about "Control" Question "Test" polygraphy (used by the FBI in pre-employment screening) and its inherent trickery.

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Yes, in the context of this thread.

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I'm unwilling to address them, because what's the point here? Fifa hasn't asked about probable-lie control questions, relevant questions, or any questions for that matter. He/She is more curious about the overall process. 

Fifa, my recommendation to you, is to ignore what you read here on this site and do what you know is right. Good luck.

fifazip,

Duc748 wrote:

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Are the questions I raised above frivolous and unworthy of answers? If you agree with me that they are not frivolous, then why do you suppose Duc748 is unwilling to address them?