ive read and now HOW DO I GET AWAY WITH LYING?

[sd]

someone asked a ? about the directed-lie ?'s are you suppose to use countermeasures when they ask you to lie. And everyone on this board talks about gov. stuff. I need to know what kind of test are given for fire department test. If any one has taken one for fd please let me know. also how is the drug ? relevant if 90% of the population have used drugs at one time or another

[George W. Maschke]

Batman wrote in part:

By "characteristic physiological response" I assume both Iocono and Lykken are referring to a "Pinoccio" (sp?) response, wherein there is no single type response common to all people that can be identified as a response to lying.  Or are they saying that no reaction, specific to deception, can be identified even at the individual level (identifiable to that one person)?  This appear to possibly be the case, if I interpret your reference to Lykken's Tremer... propely.  He appears to be saying there is no difference simply because an individual can provide the same type response both when lying and when telling the truth.  Or is he saying that any differences would not be valid because they could look similar?

I appreciate the references, and they certinaly provide good information for discussion, however I'm curious to know what  you think about the possibility a peron undergos changes in their physiology when they lie, and the possibility of accurately recording those changes in some way.  Thoughts?

I am aware of no scientific research supporting the notion that people exhibit any characteristic physiological response measurable by a polygraph instrument when lying, even at the individual level.

Regarding the scientific status of polygraphy, see Chapter 1 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector and the sources cited there.

[George W. Maschke]

someone asked a ? about the directed-lie ?'s are you suppose to use countermeasures when they ask you to lie. And everyone on this board talks about gov. stuff. I need to know what kind of test are given for fire department test. If any one has taken one for fd please let me know. also how is the drug ? relevant if 90% of the population have used drugs at one time or another

Fire departments are likely to use a probable-lie "control" question "test." To learn about the different polygraph formats as well as countermeasures, see Chapters 3 and 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. With regard to illegal drug use, most agencies will accept applicants who admit to limited use of illegal drugs in the past, but will reject those found to have used them beyond a certain limit.

[Batman (Guest)]

Mr. M,

I took a quick look at the document you reference, The Lie Behind The Lie Detector.  It's pretty extensive, it'll take a while to absorb it, but I want to do that and will return.

In the mean time, my heart, mind, and experiences continue to lead me to believe, regardless of the status of something like polygraph, that basic honesty and truthfulness at all levels, though at times it may be uncomfortable and even painful, is in the long run where we should all strive to be, not only on the organizational level, but on the individual level as well; for it is the individual(s) who ultimately makes up any organization be it private or government, and that organization ultimately reflects the individual.

Until then,

Batman

[George W. Maschke]

Batman,

In the mean time, my heart, mind, and experiences continue to lead me to believe, regardless of the status of something like polygraph, that basic honesty and truthfulness at all levels, though at times it may be uncomfortable and even painful, is in the long run where we should all strive to be, not only on the organizational level, but on the individual level as well; for it is the individual(s) who ultimately makes up any organization be it private or government, and that organization ultimately reflects the individual.

You should be aware then, that polygraph "testing" is fundamentally dependent upon the polygrapher lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested." In addition, it depends on the secret assumption that the examinee's answers to the so-called "control" questions will be less than truthful. Indeed, the more honestly one answers the so-called "control" questions, and as a consequence experiences less anxiety when answering them, the more likely one is to "fail" the "test." (If any of this is news to you, you'll find it explained at Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.) Those who demand honesty from others (e.g., government agencies) are setting a miserable example with their reliance on the pseudoscientific fraud that is polygraphy.

[FormerOfficer]

I'll agree that poly's can detect physiological changes in the body, but not only when lying....
  
My third Poly I went to take, the tester sent me home to get an EKG - he said that I must have a heart problem, because my heart rate was all over the place on his machine.  

I had an EKG the next day and my doc (the police doc) said I was completly healthy, and my heart was strong and fine.

I was nervous because of the last poly, although I was honest about everything to my BG investigator, and he was the one who wrote the questions, so I knew I would pass...
  
Weird it was.

I have to agree with the rest of the folks - for criminal investigations - I say interrogate away.

For pre-employment I think it needs to be banned.

Batman,
   Thanks for taking a second, more "objective" look at the poly.  Read the data collected and I think you'll see our point a little clearer.

   I'm not out to protect criminals, but I'm not one, and don't want to be treated like one.

Regards,
  FormerOfficer

[G Scalabr]

My third Poly I went to take, the tester sent me home to get an EKG - he said that I must have a heart problem, because my heart rate was all over the place on his machine.  

I had an EKG the next day and my doc (the police doc) said I was completely healthy, and my heart was strong and fine.

I always get a good laugh when I hear that polygraph examiners are diagnosing medical conditions. Someone with no college education and an eight-week training course has absolutely no business advising others on the status of their health.