On 17 November 2001, The New York Times published an article by David Rohde titled, "In 2 Abandoned Kabul Houses, Some Hints of Al Qaeda Presence." (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/17/international/asia/17HOUS.html?pagewanted=print) Rohde notes, among other things, that "Documents in English described 'explosives and demolition techniques' and how to blow up power lines. Others, in Arabic, showed how to put a bomb in a suitcase and pass lie detector tests."
The Arabic information on passing lie detector "tests" may be similar to that included in an Al-Qaeda document titled Mawsu'at al-jihad (Encyclopedia of Jihad). A translation of the relevant portion is now available on AntiPolygraph.org here (http://antipolygraph.org/documents/al-qaeda-lie-detection.shtml).
Quote from: George W. Maschke on Nov 17, 2002, 11:55 AM
Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist David Rohde's On 17 November 2001, The New York Times published an article by David Rohde titled, "In 2 Abandoned Kabul Houses, Some Hints of Al Qaeda Presence." (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/17/international/asia/17HOUS.html?pagewanted=print) Rohde notes, among other things, that "Documents in English described 'explosives and demolition techniques' and how to blow up power lines. Others, in Arabic, showed how to put a bomb in a suitcase and pass lie detector tests."
The Arabic information on passing lie detector "tests" may be similar to that included in an Al-Qaeda document titled Mawsu'at al-jihad (Encyclopedia of Jihad). A translation of the relevant portion is now available on AntiPolygraph.org here (http://antipolygraph.org/documents/al-qaeda-lie-detection.shtml).
If memory serves, wasn't there a recent spate of 'shame shame shame' type posts here by anonymous visitors, seeking to blame antipolygraph.org as the source of these Arabic language documents?
I wonder if these faceless visitors publicly condemned the sources for the ENGLISH TEXT manuals on 'explosives and demolition techniques and how to blow up power lines'.
I'm sure they jotted off their letters of protest against French MILAN antitank misssile manufacturers as well. How about the editors at
Flying magazine?
I am floored. You Mr. Maschke, have finally shown your true colors for what they really are; and not RWB. If you are responsible for the "hasty" translation of the terrorists information, then you are a party to treason. We are at war and you have the gall to provide comfort and support to the enemy who may very well be in our country in various sleeper cells and seeking the very type of information that you give them in a "hasty" translation. What could your motivation possibly be for that? Even if anything that you or any of your followers say in your postings has ANY value, I ask you how this translation could help anyone in our country. As our military poise to strike at the heart of those who would destroy our country, when this is over, I hope to God that you are brought to be held accountable for this that can only be viewed as treason. I spit on you!
Quote from: An American on Nov 17, 2002, 06:16 PM
I am floored. You Mr. Maschke, have finally shown your true colors for what they really are; and not RWB. If you are responsible for the "hasty" translation of the terrorists information, then you are a party to treason.
Oh my goodness.
QuoteWe are at war and you have the gall to provide comfort and support to the enemy who may very well be in our country in various sleeper cells and seeking the very type of information that you give them in a "hasty" translation.
Erm, excuse me? Presuming for the moment that your flight of fantasy is correct, wouldn't Arabic speaking persons prefer the unabridged, non-translated version that was found?
Quote...I ask you how this translation could help anyone in our country.
Have you even taken the time to read the friggin thing? I think if you would do so you will have a change of heart concerning the mortal blow you think George just weilded against our nation's security.
QuoteAs our military poise to strike at the heart of those who would destroy our country, when this is over, I hope to God that you are brought to be held accountable for this that can only be viewed as treason. I spit on you!
I break wind in your general direction!
I agree with "An American". George you just cannot see the forest through the trees! You feel that our imperfect process in this imperfect world wronged you. You had a dream to work with the FBI and found out that it was just that a dream. Now you feel that inorder to vindicate yourself and others like you, those who feel it is an inherent right to obtain everything that one wishes for, you are justified in letting the enemy know that what his manual outlines is correct.
Grow up and realize that we all can't have everything we want. We do not live in a utopian world were all is right and just. Many times the needs of the many must out way the needs of the few.
Yes other publications are out there that support bomb making and such, but why, as an American citizen (which by the way entitles you to run this self-serving site) do you feel the need to aid the enemy?
No doubt you will respond with a self-serving diatribe of scientific and liberalism spunk that those cut from the same cloth that you are will agree with. I served 21 plus years in this nation's military to insure that the far left, the middle of the road, and the far right all have the right to be whom they wish. I sickens me to see you take those rights, which men and women have died for, and disregard them as you over look the responsibility to our country that those rights require.
And "Beech Trees" ranks right up there with you on this as well.
"If memory serves, wasn't there a recent spate of 'shame shame shame' type posts here by anonymous visitors, seeking to blame antipolygraph.org as the source of these Arabic language documents?
I wonder if these faceless visitors publicly condemned the sources for the ENGLISH TEXT manuals on 'explosives and demolition techniques and how to blow up power lines'.
I'm sure they jotted off their letters of protest against French MILAN antitank misssile manufacturers as well. How about the editors at Flying magazine?"
Faceless Visitors? Come now, Beech you are as Faceless on this site as I am. At least GM stepped out of the shadows and provided his true name. I have not, for I really have no desire to have the obliviously Anti American, Sunshine Patriot, So Called Civil Liberty Crusades from this sight know who I am. Hey BT, why not go to Washington DC and stand by the Vietnam War Memorial and spout your "shame shame shame" mantra to the Vets, families, and friends of those who paid the supreme sacrifice for you, George, Mark, and all the other whiners on this site?
Just be glad that there are people like my self who still are willing to fight and die for folks like you. George, it is obliviously the time you spent in the Army was for all the wrong reasons. You may want to look at seeing if Jane Fonda is interested in becoming part of your family.
Retired Vet,
I am sorry to see a retired vet (I'll assume you are) demonstrate such foolishness in such a pompous manner. As has been previously pointed out, (1) Should Al-Qaeda have any further interest in their own document, they would much prefer it to be in their native tongue, not an abbreviated English version, and (2) apparently those who prepared this original/untranslated document were enlightened enough to realize (as did the National Academy of Sciences panel) how utterly flawed and simple-minded polygraphy is. Although I don't expect you to have the reasoning power of the NAS panel, I do expect you to have the common sense of a third world terrorist author. If you are genuine in your concern for your country, you should do everything you can to make sure that that which has been described by the NAS panel as a danger to national security and a blunt instrument not to be trusted should never be used again. If you are nothing but a polygrapher hiding behind another name tag, e.g., retired vet, and pretending, albeit irrationally, to be a patriot while questioning other's patriotism, then shame on you...
Quote from: Retired Vet on Nov 17, 2002, 08:53 PM
I agree with "An American". George you just cannot see the forest through the trees! You feel that our imperfect process in this imperfect world wronged you. You had a dream to work with the FBI and found out that it was just that a dream. Now you feel that inorder to vindicate yourself and others like you, those who feel it is an inherent right to obtain everything that one wishes for, you are justified in letting the enemy know that what his manual outlines is correct.
So even uneducated third world mujahideen are correct when they tell their compatriots that the polygraph is useless, and not to fear it? Thank you for publicly admitting the polygraph is useless and that the original Arabic document that was loosely translated into English is correct on that count.
QuoteGrow up and realize that we all can't have everything we want. We do not live in a utopian world were all is right and just. Many times the needs of the many must out way the needs of the few.
It sounded better when Spock said it.
Even so, if you can somehow manage to string a sentence together that proves how that assertion applies to the pseudo-scientific travesty of polygraphy, I'd be happy to read it.
QuoteYes other publications are out there that support bomb making and such, but why, as an American citizen (which by the way entitles you to run this self-serving site) do you feel the need to aid the enemy?
How is translating an Arabic language document that was ALREADY IN THE HANDS OF THE 'ENEMY' into a foreign language aiding that 'enemy'?
QuoteNo doubt you will respond with a self-serving diatribe of scientific and liberalism spunk that those cut from the same cloth that you are will agree with.
Gentle Readers, note how the pro-polygraph side's argument is nothing more than an amorphous blob of plasma which is shaped according to the whimsy of the author. When it suits them, we who object to the use of polygraphy are painted as rank amateurs, hacks who know nothing of science and law enforcement, are uneducated about polygraphy, etc. Now in a stunning turnaround suddenly we are pencil-necked geeks, liberal academicians living in our ivory towers with our heads so full of science and theory we can't think cleary. Utter tripe. Hypocritical nonsense.
QuoteI served 21 plus years in this nation's military to insure that the far left, the middle of the road, and the far right all have the right to be whom they wish. I sickens me to see you take those rights, which men and women have died for, and disregard them as you over look the responsibility to our country that those rights require.
I can't fathom this jingoistic bs, but I will say thank you for your service to our country. If I have as you say the right to be who I wish, then what's the problem here?
QuoteAnd "Beech Trees" ranks right up there with you on this as well.
"If memory serves, wasn't there a recent spate of 'shame shame shame' type posts here by anonymous visitors, seeking to blame antipolygraph.org as the source of these Arabic language documents?
I wonder if these faceless visitors publicly condemned the sources for the ENGLISH TEXT manuals on 'explosives and demolition techniques and how to blow up power lines'.
I'm sure they jotted off their letters of protest against French MILAN antitank misssile manufacturers as well. How about the editors at Flying magazine?"
Faceless Visitors? Come now, Beech you are as Faceless on this site as I am. At least GM stepped out of the shadows and provided his true name. I have not, for I really have no desire to have the obliviously Anti American, Sunshine Patriot, So Called Civil Liberty Crusades from this sight know who I am.
Ditto that, except substitute "black clad, kevlar armored, helmet wearing thugs" for "Anti American, Sunshine Patriot, So Called Civil Liberty Crusades"
QuoteHey BT, why not go to Washington DC and stand by the Vietnam War Memorial and spout your "shame shame shame" mantra to the Vets, families, and friends of those who paid the supreme sacrifice for you, George, Mark, and all the other whiners on this site?
Hey dillweed, it wasn't me who uttered the 'shame shame shame' mantra. If you stopped blowing steam off you'd see just how utterly wrong you are on this subject.
Chill out!
Please answer ther question Mr. Maschke. Was it you who provided the "hasty" translation? If you did, please attempt to justify your actions. What possible value could this have other than to provide those who speak that language who CHOOSE to read the "hasty" translation provided by a traitor, or to those in your midst who support you and who also must assume responsibility for any benefit this "hasty" translation provides to the enemies of this country. There is NO reasonable or unreasonable explanation. You have turned your back on those who would want to support you (i.e. Libertarian, Two block). It would appear that the only support you have maintained would be BT, and God only knows what motivates this person. Perhaps the two of you can collaborate in your cell together on Mein Kampf II
After reading many of the posts about this subject I believe that the polygraph is the best technolgy for forced interrogation NOT truth finding. The next best method of interrogation (not necessarily TRUTH) Instead would be the rubber hose and the electrical generator to the genitals trick instead. Polygraphs are only an extension of deceiving the one receiving the probing nothing else. Any one of us can be found guilty of anything under these conditions. Remember our great country has the greatest number of individuals in prison in the WORLD. With such a liberal tool open to interpretation WE are all at risk of becoming GUILTY to such meaningless efforts.
Hell even plain copiers and physical abuse have been used to convince and convict ignorant persons of the abilities of the device to determine truth.
Maybe this is could the fallback base technology as it were like it is in the 3rd world where we teach it to foreign police and military.
Sadly, there is no REAL science in polygraphs unless thinking makes it so! hahahahh
Its all academic untill it happens to YOU! Then its personal.
GOALS OF THE APA (the spanish inquisition lives TODAY) :'(
http://www.polygraph.org/apa1rev.htm
Note: your full-text citation has been replaced with a link to the referenced material -- AntiPolygraph.org Administrator
Anonymous, you stated as follows:
"I am sorry to see a retired vet (I'll assume you are) demonstrate such foolishness in such a pompous manner."
Assume as you wish, and rest assured that I am a retired Vet. Foolish and Pompous am I? I think not. Wise in the reality of the REAL world I am. The point of my post you missed in its entirety
I care not that Al-Qaeda can, or for that matter, would read George's post or the translation it references. What I care about is the fact that those who live in this nation and are afforded the same rights and liberties that the victims of 9/11 lost, feel that is permissible to further their cause at the cost of others.
Yes the NAS did find that the polygraph lacked validity; but it failed to address the utility of the polygraph. Yes I am a polygraph examiner currently working for a federal agency. No I am not hiding behind another nametag. Should we depend on it whole-heartedly? No, but it is a valuable tool to be used. Should we stop using it altogether because some have been denied a security clearance or position because of it? No. Life is not fair and we all can not have everything we desire.
You Anonymous are both Foolish and Pompous. You say I should be ashamed to say I am a patriot because I question the patriotism of others. You don't expect me to have the reasoning power of the NAS? I may not have a PHD (Piled Higher and Deeper, in some cases) but I posses the wisdom gained through time and experience as well as education, something that many of those who are in the world of academia seem to lack.
Your innuendos towards me hiding behind Patriotism are both incorrect and repugnant. I offer up the same suggestion to you as I did to Beech Trees: Why not go to Washington DC and stand by the Vietnam War Memorial and spout your "shame shame shame" mantra to the Vets, families, and friends of those who paid the supreme sacrifice for you, George, Mark, and all the other whiners on this site?
I get the sense that my post hit close to home with you Anonymous. To quote Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act III, scene 2, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".
:)OUR government contributes to this TERRORISM by training and equiping other FOREIGN nations FRIEND and FOE. Saddam got his WMD from us and used them on his people when he was an ally of ours. Did we say anything about lack of respect for human life at that time? HELL NO. We make our money off of war and death abroad and at home if you don't know.
Sadly our soldiers are used and then discarded by these people (our leaders) that benefit from these victories at the expense of our soldiers lives and health (remember Desert Storm and Gulf War syndrome).
People are expendable and TRUTH detection a perverted farce.... Why? Because TRUTH Alice is whatever they want it to be....
WAKE UP become conscious
It has been asked what constructive purpose posting an English-language translation of Arabic-language Al-Qaeda documentation on lie detection could possibly serve. Considering that the polygraph has been used extensively by law enforcement and intelligence officials in the interrogation of suspected Al-Qaeda operatives, I think that it may be useful to document what Al-Qaeda may have taught its members regarding lie detection.
In the translated portion of the Encyclopedia of Jihad, we see that they have been taught that lie detection is a sham: "Lie detectors are nothing more than a myth to trick the accused. To the extent that the accused does not believe in its effectiveness, it will not be effective against him." Those in the law enforcement and intelligence communities who might contemplate the use of polygraphy to judge the veracity of suspected Al-Qaeda operatives may wish to take this into consideration.
With regard to concealed information tests, as opposed to lie detection, it's worth noting that the Al-Qaeda documentation does not cast doubt on the Searching Peak of Tension (SPOT) technique, describing with apparent admiration how Avicenna (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02157a.htm) used it a millenium ago. Any polygrapher administering such a test to a known or suspected Al-Qaeda operative might wish to make reference to the anecdote in the pre-test phase.
As for the suggestion that publishing this information is somehow treasonous, I suggest that concerned individuals consult the U.S. Department of Justice (which has published a much more extensive translation of an Al-Qaeda Training Manual (http://www.usdoj.gov:80/ag/trainingmanual.htm)).
Quote from: George W. Maschke on Nov 18, 2002, 04:40 AM
It has been asked what constructive purpose posting an English-language translation of Arabic-language Al-Qaeda documentation on lie detection could possibly serve. Considering that the polygraph has been used extensively by law enforcement and intelligence officials in the interrogation of suspected Al-Qaeda operatives, I think that it may be useful to document what Al-Qaeda may have taught its members regarding lie detection.
You also must think it useful to provide a translation of your manual for Al Queda in Arabic, since you called for it in a different thread:
Quoteif anyone has the requisite linguistic skills and is willing to contribute their time and effort, such translations could be made available on AntiPolygraph.org in the future.
Polygraphy is a danger to civil liberties not only in the United States, but around the world. Translations of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector might be especially useful in the languages of other countries where polygraphy has gained a foothold. Some of these countries have less due process guarantees than the United States, and polygraph abuse may be expected:
Afrikaans - One of the official languages of South Africa, where polygraphy is widely relied on, including for private sector pre-employment screening (which is for the most part banned in the U.S.).
Arabic & Hebrew - Official languages of the State of Israel, where the polygraph is entrenched.
Chinese - After the United States, the People's Republic of China has the largest number of polygraph examiners. Taiwan and Singapore also use polygraphy.
French - An official language of Canada, where polygraphy is widely relied on by law enforcement.
Spanish - Spoken by many in the United States.
Anyone who would be interested in translating The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (or perhaps an abridgment of it) into any of the above (or any other language) is invited to send e-mail to info@antipolygraph.org.
Given the recent rise of conservatives in congress, the Patriot Act, and the hysteria surrounding the preservation of national security, it will be interesting to see just how long this web site lasts.
Quote from: betrayed on Nov 18, 2002, 08:11 AM
Given the recent rise of conservatives in congress, the Patriot Act, and the hysteria surrounding the preservation of national security, it will be interesting to see just how long this web site lasts.
Dear betrayed,
Your observation could be quite correct but it is a shame to have national security considerations based on hysteria and not sound facts.
Regards.
Quote from: An American on Nov 17, 2002, 06:16 PM
I am floored. You Mr. Maschke, have finally shown your true colors for what they really are; and not RWB. If you are responsible for the "hasty" translation of the terrorists information, then you are a party to treason. We are at war and you have the gall to provide comfort and support to the enemy who may very well be in our country in various sleeper cells and seeking the very type of information that you give them in a "hasty" translation. What could your motivation possibly be for that? Even if anything that you or any of your followers say in your postings has ANY value, I ask you how this translation could help anyone in our country. As our military poise to strike at the heart of those who would destroy our country, when this is over, I hope to God that you are brought to be held accountable for this that can only be viewed as treason. I spit on you!
An "American",
In your haste to tar George with the label "traitor", you apparently haven't noticed a couple of things.
First, as Beech Trees noted, any al Qaeda sympathizer would most likely read arabic and prefer/have easy access to the original arabic. The
Encyclopedia of Jihad is available (and has been for about 9 months) online for easy download in its entirety.
Second, of what possible assistance could this information be to terrorists? If they read and prefer english, more information regarding the polygraph can be found at the local library.
Third, if you're looking for anti-American activities and traitors (even unintended), you might start with the polygraph and its proponents. The use of the polygraph in screening continues to be a major hole in our security apparatus through which terrorists could easily slip and cause major damage. This is known fact, which means those who continue to use the polygraph are knowingly aiding and comforting the enemy.
I don't buy it, "American".
Skeptic
It's impossible to know, but for now I'll give the non-registered, anonymous posters to this site the benefit of the doubt and assume they are different people with genuine concerns.
I'd ask that everybody take a step back and consider what they're saying.
"Retired Vet" and "An American", if you truly care about this country, you must realize that al Qaeda already trains its people regarding the polygraph. How it works is an open secret, and apparently only the American People are largely in the dark.
It is evident that al Qaeda and our other enemies already have the keys to the kingdom, and this translation should have all red-blooded patriotic Americans calling for a changing of the locks. Yet you guys are here calling those who warn about the security flaw traitors. How smart is that?
Would you be running around calling people who warn of security flaws at airports "traitors", too?
If that's acknowledgement of the "real world", we're in serious trouble. More likely, it's simply having your head in the sand.
Wake up, people. The polygraph's cover is blown, and was long before this translation popped up. I, for one, am damn glad we know about it.
Skeptic
QuoteWhy not go to Washington DC and stand by the Vietnam War Memorial and spout your "shame shame shame" mantra to the Vets, families, and friends of those who paid the supreme sacrifice for you, George, Mark, and all the other whiners on this site?
Retired Vet:
I missed the connection between military service and polygraphy. I also missed the connection between polygraphy and patriotism.
Do you think that because someone served in the military, and may have done so honorably and to the great benefit of this nation, that somehow their post-military actions carry the aura of their military service, and are not to be questioned?
Your claim of many years of real world experience is hollow. There are many in law enforcement, particularly in polygraphy, who spout this nonsense. Of course it's universal--many elders say they are right because they have lived longer and experienced more. But many have one year of experience twenty times, and living through and witnessing events does not mean that one has learned anything from them.
Your trying to portray us as unpatriotic whiners is pathetic, and shows your unwillingness or inability to deal with the very serious problems with the polygraph.
You think your polygraph serves American interests just because you and your fellow practitioners say so?
As long as we're talking about accountability, perhaps you can account for the national disasters of Aldrich Ames, Larry Wu Tai Chin, Ana Belen Montes, Karl Koecher, and the CIA's Cuban sources in the 1980's (long before this web site) who "passed" polygraphs, but were traitors and double agents, respectively.
And since you are federal law enforcement (FBI is my guess) perhaps you'd like to account for the waste of time, money, and resources the FBI spent on a wild goose chase of me, because of reliance on the polygraph, while Robert Hanssen and Earl Pitts were committing espionage. Hostile intelligence services must have been laughing their heads off.
Please don't tell us that you can account for these polygraph induced disasters by saying that the person who brought them up is a whiner.
Quote from: Skeptic on Nov 18, 2002, 01:27 PM
Would you be running around calling people who warn of security flaws at airports "traitors", too?
If that's acknowledgement of the "real world", we're in serious trouble. More likely, it's simply having your head in the sand.
Wake up, people. The polygraph's cover is blown, and was long before this translation popped up. I, for one, am damn glad we know about it.
Skeptic
And apparently support George M. in his crusade to make his booklet available in Arabic and other languages to potential terrorists who have access to the internet.
Quote from: betrayed on Nov 18, 2002, 10:52 PM
And apparently support George M. in his crusade to make his booklet available in Arabic and other languages to potential terrorists who have access to the internet.
I fully support any and all efforts to eradicate the use of the polygraph in security screening, as it amounts to nothing more than a gaping security hole.
Make no mistake: I hold the security and safety of this nation as my highest priority. And I would
absolutely never do anything that I felt would endanger Americans or national security.
What you have to realize is the information in TLBTLD is easily available from a multitude of sources. If you truly imagine al Qaeda and others don't have easy access to that information already, you are part of the problem. You are also blind: the translation of al Qaeda's information on the polygraph makes it abundantly clear the cat is out of the bag.
Ask yourself this question, if you would: why is it that the polygraph, throughout its long and illustrious history,
has never caught a spy, and has specifically missed the most damaging spies our nation has seen? The polygraph was in use long before George's book came along.
If security personnel would wake up to this problem tomorrow and eradicate the use of the polygraph, translation of TLBTLD would be a non-issue. As it is, if that's what it takes to make people realize the polygraph, a lynchpin in our nation's security apparatus, is already compromised and worse than useless...
Skeptic
"Betrayed,"
Your suggestion that I am somehow on a "crusade" to aid potential terrorists through the translation of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector is simply outrageous.
For any who are interested, my post to which "Betrayed" refers with such professed aggrievement is to be found in the message thread, Translation (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=832.msg5273#msg5273).
Changing the description from a "hasty" translation to a "rough" translation does not in any legal sense protect you from the act you have done. Again,I am only assuming you provided it. Mr. Mallah, please advise your client. Do you now choose to answer the original question? Did you George Maschke provide on this web site the "hasty" translation; and now it must be added - did you George Maschke provide the "rough" translation which is the topic of this thread.
Quote from: An_American_dufus on Nov 19, 2002, 09:28 AM
Changing the description from a "hasty" translation to a "rough" translation does not in any legal sense protect you from the act you have done. Again,I am only assuming you provided it. Mr. Mallah, please advise your client. Do you now choose to answer the original question? Did you George Maschke provide on this web site the "hasty" translation; and now it must be added - did you George Maschke provide the "rough" translation which is the topic of this thread.
Rather than getting all worked up with your latest 'rough vs. hasty' conspiracy theory, could we please reverse engineer this? What laws do you think George has broken please? Specifically?
Cute BT. Now you are in to altering posters names. I wonder if other posters know how things on this site can be manipulated? George, BT is more of a problem to you than you might think. I assure you and any other readers, my posted name is NOT "AnAmerican dufus". How incredibly childish!
Quote from: An_American on Nov 19, 2002, 09:28 AM
Changing the description from a "hasty" translation to a "rough" translation does not in any legal sense protect you from the act you have done. Again,I am only assuming you provided it. Mr. Mallah, please advise your client. Do you now choose to answer the original question? Did you George Maschke provide on this web site the "hasty" translation; and now it must be added - did you George Maschke provide the "rough" translation which is the topic of this thread.
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to the legal difficulties involved in "the act [he has] done"? You'll want to cite the specific code and statute, of course.
Additionally, I'd love to see your qualifications in this area. Would you care to present them?
Skeptic
Beech Trees, Skeptic,
"An American" has specifically accused Mr. Maschke of the capital crime of treason. See "An American's" first post here, where he wrote, "I hope to God that you are brought to be held accountable for this that can only be viewed as treason."
The applicable law is 18 USC 2381. It provides:
"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and
comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five
years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
Quote from: An American on Nov 19, 2002, 12:17 PM
Cute BT. Now you are in to altering posters names. I wonder if other posters know how things on this site can be manipulated? George, BT is more of a problem to you than you might think. I assure you and any other readers, my posted name is NOT "AnAmerican dufus". How incredibly childish!
I grant you it was childish. I didn't alter YOUR name, I altered the quote citation when I replied. No malfeasance, just a result of my frustration at your amazing, breathtakingly wrong histrionics. Now please put up or knock off the borderline libelous accusations.
Anonymous,
If that in fact is An_American's assertion, he should be identified and sued into oblivion.
Anonymous2,
Perhaps "An American" would be so kind as to clarify precisely what crime he believes has been committed. But his second post here also indicates that the crime he had in mind is treason. He wrote:
Quote...What possible value could this have other than to provide those who speak that language who CHOOSE to read the "hasty" translation provided by a traitor, or to those in your midst who support you and who also must assume responsibility for any benefit this "hasty" translation provides to the enemies of this country....
Quote from: Anonymous on Nov 19, 2002, 01:13 PM
Beech Trees, Skeptic,
"An American" has specifically accused Mr. Maschke of the capital crime of treason. See "An American's" first post here, where he wrote, "I hope to God that you are brought to be held accountable for this that can only be viewed as treason."
The applicable law is 18 USC 2381. It provides:
"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and
comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five
years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
You know, I'm not a lawyer, but I would
love to hear the defense's argument. I imagine it would go something like this:
"Your honor, my client is a patriotic American and an activist dedicated to exposing and fixing a documented critical flaw in our nation's security. Unfortunately, this runs afoul of the economic interests of a number of people. In an attempt to silence my client, the polygraph profession has tried many tactics, and is now resorting to the outrage of calling him a traitor.
"The prosecution would have you believe that Mr. Maschke is intentionally assisting our enemies with circumventing security procedures. For this to be true, it would first be necessary that the polygraph could accurately be described as a "security procedure". As recent findings by the National Academy of Sciences indicate, the polygraph is worse than useless for security screening; it is a detriment to security, one that has never caught a spy, one that has allowed our nation's worst espionage disasters to go on undetected.
"As for these charges, the prosecution's case boils down to claiming the translating of public-domain information from arabic to english constitutes treason. We submit that this is prima facie absurd, and ask that these charges be dismissed with prejudice. Further, in light of the fact that the prosecution is aware of the frivolous nature of the charges it has brought, we ask for recovery of all attorney's and legal fees."
I would
pay to see the public flogging the prosecution would get on that one, not to mention the resulting damage to the polygraph profession.
Tell you what: I think it's a lot more likely "An American" will be successfully sued for libel, should he continue with this crap.
Skeptic
This whole translation nonsense can be resolved by recalling the crucial principle Skeptic pointed out in a long ago post (I can't remember exactly where it was; maybe someone can help me). It goes something like this, in my own formulation:
A sound security system (such as PGP) does not depend on the ignorance or laziness of others in order to be effective. In fact, its design assumes knowledge and sophistication on the part of those who would beat it, and it still stands up.
If this thread fairly represents the polygraph community's reaction to the translation, they have unintentionally admitted that the polygraph relies on ignorance, and knowledge beats it.
This is what is supposed to protect us from terrorists?
Beech, Skeptic, Anonymous, and Mark,
Stand up and sing the following to the tune of 'God Bless America':
God bless George Maschke,
Man that I love;
A true American,
Like Louie Farrekan,
Sent to us from the skies up above!
He's our hero,
He's not a zero,
Like the poly guys, do believe;
God Bless George Maschke,
A true blue guy,
God Bless George Maschke,
He'd never ever lie!
Your Welcome,
Batman
Quote from: Batman on Nov 19, 2002, 05:47 PM
Beech, Skeptic, Anonymous, and Mark,
Stand up and sing the following to the tune of 'God Bless America':
God bless George Maschke,
Man that I love;
A true American,
Like Louie Farrekan,
Sent to us from the skies up above!
He's our hero,
He's not a zero,
Like the poly guys, do believe;
God Bless George Maschke,
A true blue guy,
God Bless George Maschke,
He'd never ever lie!
Everyone,
It would seem that "Batman" has gone full-tilt 51-cards-in-the-deck loony. This is a sad day for vigilante law enforcement.
Please don't stare at the poor, gibbering caped crusader. We can only wish him well for his recovery in the near future. With hope and the right treatment, he may still recover a semblance of normal functioning and lead a productive life.
Skeptic
Batman:
That's real bright. I have to admit that I got a kick out of seeing you try to rhyme "American" with "Farrakhan" (a little tortured, but not bad for on the fly).
You should send that to Louis himself. I bet he could do a lot with that one.
The Al-Q Manual is a fake
Quote from: simon on Nov 20, 2002, 10:20 PM
The Al-Q Manual is a fake
Simon,
Why do you say that?
Skeptic
It is not written by muslim.
simon
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
Interesting idea that you have there. You support that claim how, exactly?
Quote from: simon on Nov 20, 2002, 11:41 PM
It is not written by muslim.
I would also like to know how you know this, Simon. Is it based on the text, based on information you've heard somewhere, or based on an opinion that a Muslim wouldn't write it? Or something else?
Skeptic
It is based on the text.
Simon,
When you claim that the "Al-Q Manual is a fake," which one specifically are you referring to? Do you mean Mawsu'at al-jihad or do you mean the manual on the U.S. Department of Justice webiste?
Specifically what language in the document to which you refer indicates that it is a "fake?" Thus far, you've provided us with nothing to substantiate your claim.
For some historical background on the
Mawsu'at al-jihad (Encyclopedia of Jihad), see Reuel Marc Gerecht's article, "The Terrorists' Encyclopedia," (http://www.meforum.org/article/88) published in
The Middle East Quarterly, Vol. 8, No. 3 (Summer 2001). Gerecht, a former CIA Middle East specialist, writes in part:
QuoteI took one look at it, the Mawsu'at al-Jihad al-Afghani in Arabic, and realized I just might have a key, perhaps the key, for understanding the evolution and intent of bin Ladin's organization.
Loved your legal admonition Skeptic!
Quote from: American on Nov 22, 2002, 12:00 AM
Loved your legal admonition Skeptic!
Oh, that's a stab in the dark. Imagine what a real lawyer could do with such a case.
Skeptic
Ask Osama, he will confirm.
In reference to the manual on the U.S. Department of Justice webiste.
I did not look at Mawsu'at al-jihad, it is probably in arabic.
Here is some discussion on the subject:
http://www.afghanistanwar.com/discus/messages/20/7419.html?1037599290
Quote from: simon on Nov 23, 2002, 01:09 AM
Here is some discussion on the subject:
http://www.afghanistanwar.com/discus/messages/20/7419.html?1037599290
Thanks, Simon!
Skeptic
I came by your board by accident, and have sat in my office enthralled by the discussion rather than getting on my with work. I am not a US citizen, I am Scottish, but am still intrigued by the comments of your supposed 'Patriots'.
To accuse George W. Maschke of treason for publishing an English language version of the advice given to foreign terrorists is hardly reasonable or logical. Fevered nonsense such as this only serves to diminish the credibility of the accusers. It is quite, quite clear that the pro-polygraph lobby feel they have some inalienable right to the moral high-ground of patriotism. Bunkum.
I note that no-one has stated precisely why this publication would assist any enemy, although it is obvious why its publication would irk those who have some personal, professional or pecuiary interest in the continued use of this obviously medieval technology. You should all note that I say this is someone who has no vested interest at all in the effectiveneess of polygraphy.
From my detached position I would have to say that those who wish to caution against reliance on a method of intelligence gathering which the enemy can, quite clearly, use to its own advantage, are the true patriots.
It may interest you to know that polygraph tests are held in as much esteem in the UK as stage magic and miracle cures.
Quote from: A Foreign View on Nov 24, 2002, 05:02 PM
To accuse George W. Maschke of treason for publishing an English language version of the advice given to foreign terrorists is hardly reasonable or logical. Fevered nonsense such as this only serves to diminish the credibility of the accusers. It is quite, quite clear that the pro-polygraph lobby feel they have some inalienable right to the moral high-ground of patriotism. Bunkum.
Indeed -- well-put. It is instructive that the polygraph lobby, which so frequently claims the information in TLBTLD is bogus, claimed "treason" when translated versions of al Qaeda's information on the polygraph were posted -- information that, in part, agrees with that in TLBTLD. If bogus, then al Qaeda's information must be useless. Clearly, whatever value the polygraph had has been compromised, yet these proponents would prefer to do away with the evidence.
Thanks for the perspective.
Skeptic
George,
On Nov 18, 2002 you wrote:
"I suggest that concerned individuals consult the U.S. Department of Justice (which has published a much more extensive translation of an Al-Qaeda Training Manual)."
I am interested in reading their countermeasure advice. Can you tell me more precisely where I can obtain a copy. I wasn't able to locate it through Google.
There are many things we disagree on, but I'm with you regarding the value of knowing what Al-Qaeda teaches.
Peace.
Gordon
Gordon,
The post to which you referred includes a hyperlink to the translation of an Al-Qaeda published on-line by the U.S. Department of State.
This document does not, however, address polygraph countermeasures. I mentioned that the State Department had published a translated Al-Qaeda training manual in response to the suggestion by some polygraph supporters that our publication of a translation of an excerpt on lie detection (http://antipolygraph.org/documents/al-qaeda-lie-detection.shtml) from an Al-Qaeda training manual somehow constituted treason or aiding the enemy.
This is an old topic but I can't resist on a comment.
When one converts to islam it is required that said individual must learn to read, write, and speak arabic. More so for the extremist. To be a true follower of islam one must be fluent in the language of Muhammad and Allah. When one converts they must be schooled to understand the true meanings of the Qur'an.
Same as when one converts to Judaism. Traditionally one must attend hebrew school to learn the language of the Tora, the profits, and of God.
With that being said, posting any translation would not be harmful in any way. These are things that are common knowledge to a jihadist. If anything it has educated the non-arabic speaking american to what these extremist are being taught.
Just my .02 cents