Imprisoned polygraph critic Doug Williams will be featured on the next episode of the public radio show This American Life (https://thisamericanlife.org), which is "broadcast on more than 500 stations to about 2.2 million listeners." Details on how to listen are available here:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/about
A preview of the broadcast, titled "Mr. Lie Detector," is available here:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/618/mr-lie-detector
This American Life's story about Doug Williams can now be listened to online or downloaded here:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/618/mr-lie-detector
Is Doug Williams a political prisoner, or just another victim of government corruption?
Near the end, he asks "what lines did I cross?" Maybe the question should be "whose lines did I cross?"
The insidious Polygraph Industrial Complex is embedded so far up our national security ass that they can't be stopped.
Mr. Williams represents a threat to their livelihood - one he wants desperately to destroy. I say sic 'em. Behind you one hundred percent brother.
I can't wait for the next chapter!
John M.,
Thank you sir for your support - and please know that the next phase of my crusade against the insidious, evil Orwellian polygraph industry will be the most intense yet. Among other things, there will be a major motion picture, a documentary a class action lawsuit and an extensive speaking tour. I'm going to do my dead level best to utterly destroy the polygraph industry and hold the polygraph practitioners up to the contempt and ridicule they so richly deserve.
I'm all in Mr. Williams. Let me know how I can be of your assistance.
We simply have to stop these criminals from ruining the lives of innocent people.
Congress got it absolutely right when they enacted the EPPA, but why on earth does the law stop short and allow the government to abuse its employees?
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 14, 2017, 04:59 PMbut why on earth does the law stop short and allow the government to abuse its employees?
Simple: to neutralize national security risks JUST LIKE YOU.
Quote from: quickfix on Jun 14, 2017, 05:51 PMSimple: to neutralize national security risks JUST LIKE YOU.
You're the biggest threat to national security Quickfix. Thanks for admitting, though, that the government abuses its employees. The government owes its employees the same loyalty that they owe it. ;D
Quote from: Doug_Williams on Jun 14, 2017, 12:34 AMa class action lawsuit and an extensive speaking tour. I'm going to do my dead level best to utterly destroy the polygraph industry and hold the polygraph practitioners up to the contempt and ridicule they so richly deserve.
Please let me know when you start the class action lawsuit. I would like to join this one. Also, when their ship starts sinking, the polygraph examiners will point their fingers at the security officials and the security officials will point their fingers at the polygraph examiners. Take them all down! >:(
quickfix, piece of crap. Trolls around here like he's all tough. What's your real name asswipe?
Just another abuser.
Did you poly Reality Winner too? Or, was she one of the tens of thousands of people every year that do not really successfully pass the polygraph, but get/get to keep their clearances?
Though thou exalt thyself like an eagle and make thy nest in the stars, thence I will bring thee down, sayeth the Lord.
- Obadiah 1
To John M.:
John - I will be out in 40 days and will be working with the attorneys who have indicated a willingness to prosecute these tort actions and start the class action. We will begin putting the cases together and I'll be soliciting people to be a part of the class action on my website POLYGRAPH.COM and I hope Dr. Maschke will assist in this process as well. The day of reckoning is coming for the thugs like quickfix who have been running this lie detector scam...
To quickfix:
Be sure your sins will find you out - the day of reckoning is near...
To Wandersmann:
The scenario you described is exactly what will happen. The truth will out and justice will no longer be denied to the victims of the evil polygraph industry - and I welcome you to be a part of it. Keep the faith, help is on the way.
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 15, 2017, 05:52 PMquickfix, piece of crap. Trolls around here like he's all tough. What's your real name asswipe?
Just another abuser.
Did you poly Reality Winner too? Or, was she one of the tens of thousands of people every year that do not really successfully pass the polygraph, but get/get to keep their clearances?
Though thou exalt thyself like an eagle and make thy nest in the stars, thence I will bring thee down, sayeth the Lord.
- Obadiah 1
Well said John M.
Quote from: Doug_Williams on Jun 16, 2017, 10:44 AMWell said John M.
I agree. There is something else I have recently thought of. It has been 5 years since I've had anything to do with the government and I am speculating and could be wrong. I wonder, however, if people being adjudicated for a SECRET clearance have a more stringent background investigation than those being adjudicated for TS+ clearances? Things have changed a lot since I was affiliated with the government and I will be forever thankful that I was blessed to serve with people of high moral character unlike the narcissistic slugs that are running things today.
At any rate, I do not believe that people getting a SECRET clearance are polygraphed and therefore must successfully pass an old-fashioned background investigation. Although I am certain that anyone filing for a federal job must submit a SF-86, it seems to me that people going for TS+ clearances might get a less stringent background investigation if they pass the poly. I base this theory on reading about the most recent NSA leak case. The young woman who was arrested must have passed a polygraph to get her contract, or prior access. If you look at her background, however, it seems that a competent background investigator should have seen lots of red flags regarding her background.
Just something to consider. If I am correct, these polygraph frauds are not only ruining innocent lives, they are a huge threat to national security.
Quote from: Doug_Williams on Jun 16, 2017, 01:40 AMKeep the faith, help is on the way.
Thank you sir! You are a true American hero.
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 16, 2017, 01:40 PMI am correct, these polygraph frauds are not only ruining innocent lives, they are a huge threat to national security.
Absolutely. They are being lazy by relying on the polygraph to do their jobs for them.
To the ignorant, it seems like a good idea - to the abusers, it's a way to show they're doing something to justify their phony baloney jobs. Credibility Assessments Branch - what a joke that is. They said I had a "lack of insight" and a "proclivity to externalize blame". WTF?
But you know what it really is. It's nothing less than institutionalized discrimination - and they know it!
Let's roll.
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 16, 2017, 01:40 PMJust something to consider. If I am correct, these polygraph frauds are not only ruining innocent lives, they are a huge threat to national security.
You have nailed the most salient point yet - relying on the results of a polygraph test is most certainly a very serious threat to national security. And the thugs in the polygraph profession who lie about the validity and reliability of the test are nothing more than traitors who are perpetrating this fraud simply to unjustly enrich themselves.
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 16, 2017, 01:55 PMThank you sir! You are a true American hero.
Sir, I cannot tell you how comforting those words are as I sit here in prison simply because I have "protested the loudest and longest against the polygraph". I'm reminded of the lyrics of an old Rock & Roll song: "I'm just a man whose intentions are good - oh Lord please don't let me be misunderstood".
Quote from: Doug_Williams on Jun 16, 2017, 10:45 PM"I'm just a man whose intentions are good - oh Lord please don't let me be misunderstood".
Bennie Benjamin 1964; Burdon's rendition still gives me goose bumps.
Quote from: Doug_Williams on Jun 16, 2017, 10:45 PMYou have nailed the most salient point yet - relying on the results of a polygraph test is most certainly a very serious threat to national security. And the thugs in the polygraph profession who lie about the validity and
Let's not forget that the ranks of the thugs include not only the polygraph charlatans, but one must also not overlook the rest of the bottom-feeding scavengers that staff the various Offices of Security throughout the IC. :o
Quote from: Doug_Williams on Jun 16, 2017, 01:40 AMJohn - I will be out in 40 days and will be working with the attorneys who have indicated a willingness to prosecute these tort actions and start the class action. We will begin putting the cases together and I'll be soliciting people to be a part of the class action on my website POLYGRAPH.COM and
Please consider enlisting me in your class action suit.
The presence of trolls like quickfix provide confirmation that this forum is causing consternation and alarm in the various Offices of Security that plague the IC. :o
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 12, 2017, 08:48 PMIs Doug Williams a political prisoner, or just another victim of government corruption?
I believe that he could certainly be regarded as a political prisoner or prisoner of conscience, but of course the DOJ Bureau of Prisons insists that there are no political prisoners in the Federal gulag! :D
:D
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 14, 2017, 04:59 PMCongress got it absolutely right when they enacted the EPPA, but why on earth does the law stop short and allow the government to abuse its employees?
Because the sacrosanct National Security Act of 1947 (which authorized the CIA and NSA, and legalized their lack of accountability) still takes precedence over the EPPA. ::)
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 16, 2017, 02:56 PMCredibility Assessments Branch - what a joke that is. They said I had a "lack of insight" and a "proclivity to externalize blame". WTF?
You can always count upon the IC to come up with the most creative labels for its various internal components. :D ;D
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 14, 2017, 06:35 PMAlso, when their ship starts sinking, the polygraph examiners will point their fingers at the security officials and the security officials will point their fingers at the polygraph examiners. Take them all down! >:(
The security kooks are just as offensive and useless as the polygraphers.
Take them all down is right; straight down to the bottom of the Potomac! >:(
Quote from: xenonman on Jun 18, 2017, 03:01 AMLet's not forget that the ranks of the thugs include not only the polygraph charlatans, but one must also not overlook the rest of the bottom-feeding scavengers that staff the various Offices of Security throughout the IC.
Right on Xenonman - I just spoke to a friend who is currently in Germany and was recently given a tour of the former East German Stasi prison known as Hohenschönhausen. He went into detail about what he learned about Stasi tactics and it put a chill up my spine to realize that our current polygraphic/security jackasses are just like the former Stasi thugs. Persecuting innocent people is their specialty. When we celebrated the fall of the Berlin Wall we never knew that we had already contracted the social disease that infected the Warsaw Pact. I hope that we come to our senses like the former East Germans did.
Today is Father's Day. Remember and pray for all of the fathers who are unable to adequately provide for their families due to losing their livelihood after being falsely accused by these frauds in the polygraph and security communities. 8-)
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 18, 2017, 03:47 PMhope that we come to our senses like the former East Germans did.
My fantasy is that someday Americans will exercise their Second Amendment rights and overpower the checkpoints of entry in Langley. (similarly to the overpowering of the border crossing points by the East Berliners in 1989). I don't expect to see such a miracle happen in my lifetime, but then again few West Germans in 1989 had expected ever to see German reunification.
Similarly, as the East Berliners stormed the Stasi headquarters after the wall fell, Americans should do likewise at Langley. :o
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 18, 2017, 03:47 PMToday is Father's Day. Remember and pray for all of the fathers who are unable to adequately provide for their families due to losing their livelihood after being falsely accused by these frauds in the polygraph and security communities. 8-)
Let us also remember the families of the hundreds of thousands of unsung American service personnel, including many fathers, who have died in action since 1947. For them, there was no diplomatic immunity, embassy, or safe house to cower behind. In that same period, only about 119 "brave" CIA personnel have met a similar fate. :o
Quote from: xenonman on Jun 19, 2017, 06:01 AMSimilarly, as the East Berliners stormed the Stasi headquarters after the wall fell, Americans should do likewise at Langley.
I think the answer will be litigation. There is a cauldron boiling that sooner or later will erupt like the Yellowstone caldera. Hopefully the polygraph cauldron will erupt first. First, we have junk science that can easily be proven as such. Second, we have an ever-growing amount of innocent victims. Third, adverse action resulting in loss of income and prestige solely due to the polygraph absent any proof is the very definition of libel. The funny part is that the STASI wannabee's running our security divisions claim that removing income and employment is not considered adverse action, only imprisonment is considered adverse action to these nut-jobs. I think a jury would find that the
reasonable man {person} thinks otherwise. The only thing blocking the path so far has been one or two incompetent Federal judges. There are plenty of other legal venues to bring suit. There are other issues involved than the issues ruled on by idiot judges. All that needs to happen is finding an honest judge and committed attorney. It will make the tobacco lawsuit look like traffic court. ;D
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 19, 2017, 01:24 PM
I think the answer will be litigation.
Hopefully you are right. However it has been the courts that generally have protected the ability of the IC to avoid any real oversight. It is also the federal courts that continue to pass down the harsh sentences on whistleblowers.
Having observed personally how the limited reforms of the Watergate era have all been whittled down to the point of ineffectiveness, my faith in the judiciary to effect any real reform is indeed very limited. ::)
Quote from: xenonman on Jun 19, 2017, 01:48 PMHaving observed personally how the limited reforms of the Watergate era have all been whittled down to the point of ineffectiveness, my faith in the judiciary to effect any real reform is indeed very limited.
I totally agree with you there Xenonman. I have no faith in our judiciary, but I have total faith in capitalist greed. I think they day will come where the money will be behind the people who oppose the box. When some smart attorneys smell the potential bucks in this righteous cause, it will be like bloody chum on the water for the sharks.
Why would they even need to polygraph more than once? If they can take unfavorable administrative actions for failing to successfully pass it, why conduct the same procedure over and over and over and over?
Think about that. If the polygraph works, why would they need to do it five times in three years?
I have it in writing - they said that two polygraphs a year is not considered to be excessive. I wonder what regulation that came from.
After the first failed attempt, each successive one gets worse. Fear is a powerful emotion. And for me, fear of failure is as intense as it is uncontrollable.
If the actual "test" only has five or six questions, why does it take five hours to complete? You know why as well as I do, to "fuck with you mentally", as Mr. Williams so eloquently puts it. The mental torture is real and will live on with you forever.
All in the hype to catch the next Snowden.
Abuse by polygraph must be stopped right now. Those who are responsible for allowing it continue must be held accountable and forced to follow the approved and relevant laws and regulations.
***** To see what constitutes an unfavorable administration, check out the attached from the Code of Federal Regulations: § 154.3 (bb) and (cc) – p. 754
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 20, 2017, 10:45 AMTo see what constitutes an unfavorable administration, check out the attached from the Code of Federal Regulations: § 154.3 (bb) and (cc) – p. 754
Now I'm really confused. Based on the definition of adversarial action, how can one lose SCI access yet still retain a Top Secret clearance? They are in essence saying we trust you and yet we don't. It's like saying a woman is
sort of pregnant. It is pure bullshit. :o
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 20, 2017, 01:08 PMhow can one lose SCI access yet still retain a Top Secret clearance?
Isn't SCI considered to be an increment above TS? The two designations are often paired together to form an access level known as TS/SCI. Usually, the CIA requires "ability" to hold TS/SCI for most of its lackeys. Hence, I'd imagine that losing an SCI designation would be fatal to any career in Langley.::)
Quote from: xenonman on Jun 20, 2017, 01:15 PMIsn't SCI considered to be an increment above TS? The two designations are often paired together to form an access level known as TS/SCI. Usually, the CIA requires "ability" to hold TS/SCI for most of its lackeys. Hence, I'd imagine that losing an SCI designation would be fatal to any career in Langley.
Correct! The scam however, involves the fact that when they remove SCI and access, they usually allow one to retain TS. This is an insincere and deceptive attempt to create the illusion that they haven't ruined an innocent persons life. It's synonymous with taking away the only existing set of car keys for someone's rare model car and boasting that they still own the car. :(
Quote from: Doug_Williams on Jun 16, 2017, 01:40 AMWe will begin putting the cases together and I'll be soliciting people to be a part of the class action
Let us know when you have begun to actively seek out interested individuals for this purpose. 8-)
Seems pretty clear to me.
(bb) Unfavorable administrative action. Adverse action taken as the result of personnel security determinations and unfavorable personnel security determinations as defined in this part.
(cc) Unfavorable personnel security determination. A denial or revocation of clearance for access to classified information; denial or revocation of access to classified information; denial or revocation of a Special Access authorization (including access to SCI); nonappointment to or nonselection for appointment to a sensitive position; nonappointment to or nonselection for any other position requiring a trustworthiness determination under this part; reassignment to a position of lesser sensitivity or to a nonsensitive position; and nonacceptance for or discharge from the Armed Forces when any of the foregoing actions are based on derogatory information of personnel security significance.
Yet DIA is being allowed to circumvent DOD regulations and ones individual rights.
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 20, 2017, 02:08 PMSeems pretty clear to me.
(bb) Unfavorable administrative action. Adverse action taken as the result of personnel security determinations and unfavorable personnel security determinations as defined in this part.
(cc) Unfavorable personnel security determination. A denial or revocation of clearance for access to classified information; denial or revocation of access to classified information; denial or revocation of a Special Access authorization (including access to SCI); nonappointment to or nonselection for appointment to a sensitive position; nonappointment to or nonselection for any other position requiring a trustworthiness determination under this part; reassignment to a position of lesser sensitivity or to a nonsensitive position; and nonacceptance for or discharge from the Armed Forces when any of the foregoing actions are based on derogatory information of personnel security significance.
It is also crucial to not overlook the problem of "non-selection"/"non-appointment" as it applies in the case of new applicants from wholly outside the IC who are seeking employment within the Community for the first time. :(
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 20, 2017, 02:11 PMYet DIA is being allowed to circumvent DOD regulations and ones individual rights.
Of course this problem isn't limited to the DIA or elsewhere at DOD! ::)
Quote from: xenonman on Jun 20, 2017, 02:18 PMOf course this problem isn't limited to the DIA or elsewhere at DOD!
I have no knowledge of this happening elsewhere in DOD, but I do have overwhelming material evidence to show that it is happening at DIA.
As I've said many times on this message board, Inspector Generals at all levels are incapable of stopping them from committing this abuse. My senators and congressman are so far, unable, or unwilling to get involved.
I've been blowing the damn whistle (banging my head against the wall) for three years now, with only limited success.
I believe Mr. Williams is going to be a force to be reckoned with when he gets out and I plan on having a front row seat.
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 20, 2017, 03:00 PMMy senators and congressman are so far, unable, or unwilling to get involved.
They feign sympathy and disbelief when confronted with evidence of abuse and tell victims they will go to bat for them. They ultimately send a letter to the perpetrators and ask for an explanation and the perpetrators assure them they have done nothing wrong. It ends there. It is like asking criminals to voluntarily testify against themselves. It is ultimately Congress who is responsible for the entire mess. Their palms are being greased by the polygraph community and they support the polygraph policies because there are way more dolts in the public who believe it works than there are polygraph victims. Too many of our Congresspersons are whores and chameleons.
You just nailed it Wandersmann.
The Inspector General system is also a farce. They're the foxes guarding the hen houses.
I came to the realization that using the polygraph results as evidence of wrongdoing, is in fact, a human rights violation.
This inherently probabilistic and subjective evaluation must never be used to discriminate truth from lies.
BLUF - False positives produce wrongful convictions.
Check this out - even the APA itself puts the accuracy of a relevant question test at 85% (confidence interval 77% - 93%) with an inconclusive rate of 13%.
http://www.polygraph.org/polygraph-validity-research
That's probably only accounting for the first "test" - wonder what the overall pass rates are for the next four interrogations. Mine alternated between "No Opinion" and "Significant Response". I don't care what they say, no matter what you do, you can't un-ring that bell, or get the toothpaste back in the tube. You are screwed.
Welcome to abuse by polygraph.
It also occurred to me that this policy is a left over from Obamaism. And just like its brothers Fascism, Socialism, and Communism, it survives by denying human rights.
The populist zeal to root out the next Edward Snowden has overwhelmed the cognitive privacy that is the basis of our political conscience.
Therein lies the duality of this mess.
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 22, 2017, 10:38 AMI came to the realization that using the polygraph results as evidence of wrongdoing, is in fact, a human rights violation.
Examining this wrongdoing provides a wonderful opportunity to understand why our Founding Fathers practiced dueling and gives me an opportunity to praise them now that they are constantly under attack and their customs and philosophies now considered anachronisms. Human rights violations don't bother me half as much as the concept of taking away a man's honor without any proof. Now I completely understand the dueling concept and if these spineless rats that falsely condemn innocent people were ever legally challenged on the field of honor the polygraph would go away overnight. Only a coward would take advantage of a situation where he can be a sanctioned bully and profit thereby. As a military college graduate who lived under a stringent honor code and former military officer the thought of impugning a man's hard earned reputation and honor through this witchcraft is unthinkable. Through my polygraph experiences I've learned that the millennial narcissists who are running this country know as much about honor as I know about meringue dancing. Okay Quickfix, I'm done blathering. Maybe you can find someone who speaks English at a 2+ or 3 level who can explain to you what I just said. >:(
Passages from the fascinating book "The History of an American Obsession, The Lie Detectors" by Ken Alder
"The lie detector cannot be killed by science because it is not born of science. Its habitat is not the laboratory or even the courtroom, but newsprint, film, television, and of course the pulps, comic books and science fiction. To put it in the more sober language of economics; lie detection is demand-driven."
"The lie detector is not a hoax so much as a mirror of make-believe. Since the 50's America's sci-fi religion, Scientology, has used the E-Meter – a simple galvanometer – to gauge the spiritual health of initiates as they verify their ascent to "clear."
Simply substitute "DIA, Office of Security" for "Scientology."
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 22, 2017, 01:20 PM"The lie detector cannot be killed by science because it is not born of science. Its habitat is not the laboratory or even the courtroom, but newsprint, film, television, and of course the pulps, comic books and science fiction. To put it in the more sober language of economics; lie detection is demand-driven."
"The lie detector is not a hoax so much as a mirror of make-believe. Since the 50's America's sci-fi religion, Scientology, has used the E-Meter – a simple galvanometer – to gauge the spiritual health of initiates as they verify their ascent to "clear."
Simply substitute "DIA, Office of Security" for "Scientology."
Excellent post John M. This is a perfect summary. Not to sound cliche, but the polygraph truly is society's fault. Again, I hearken back to our Founding Fathers. They knew that the masses and pure democracies throughout history have lead to tyranny of the masses. That is why they emphasized people of high moral character to represent the people in a representative government. These representatives were supposed to commit political suicide, if necessary, to do what was right. As we've discussed earlier, we no longer have people of high moral character representing us. :-[
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 22, 2017, 01:04 PMOkay Quickfix, I'm done blathering. Maybe you can find someone who speaks English at a 2+ or 3 level who can explain to you what I just said.
I can explain it: it's jibberish. You all use the popular buzzwords, i.e. human rights, torture, Orwellian, etc. You all pat each other on the back with your "well said". THE BOTTOM LINE: if you think a class-action suit is going anywhere, you're delusional. There is no inherent right to a security clearance or federal employment. It is a privilege. But go ahead and follow the cockroach convicted felon (WHO PLED GUILTY) Williams. We look forward to it.
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 22, 2017, 01:04 PMMaybe you can find someone who speaks English at a 2+ or 3 level who can explain to you what I just said
I guess he couldn't find anyone and he still can't handle the truth (DODI 5210.91.)
Go back under your rock asswipe. You're only showing how ignorant you are every time you post something.
Quote from: quickfix on Jun 22, 2017, 05:39 PMThere is no inherent right to a security clearance or federal employment.
So if there is no right that entitles you to abuse people? There's also no right to commit slander and libel. If the polygraph is so vital to national security, why don't we polygraph Federal judges and prosecutors? Are they a special class that is above reproach? Have you ever contemplated any of the above Quickfix or are you just happy to do whatever it takes to collect a paycheck? Judging from what you've shown on this site if you didn't have the polygraph you'd be working in a carwash. ;D
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 22, 2017, 01:04 PMwho speaks English at a 2+ or 3 level who can explain to you what I just said. >:(
Maybe someone should address him "pa russkiiy" as he appears to know some Russian? :D ;D
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 15, 2017, 05:52 PMDid you poly Reality Winner too? Or, was she one of the tens of thousands of people every year that do not really successfully pass the polygraph, but get/get to keep their clearances?
I read someplace that
Monica Lewinsky held a TS clearance when she was working at the Pentagon. That was where she went after she swallowed up all of Chelsea Clinton's siblings. I don't know if she was ever polygraphed while there, but then she's sufficiently sociopathic that she could probably bluff her way through almost anything. ;D ;D
Quote from: sammorter on Jun 22, 2017, 11:19 AMIt also occurred to me that this policy is a left over from Obamaism. And just like its brothers Fascism, Socialism, and Communism, it survives by denying human rights.
However, the mentality behind the policy dates back to the National Security Act of 1947, fourteen years before Obama was born! IC abuses have proliferated since that Act, irrespective of whatever political party or President is in power! :o
Quote from: xenonman on Jun 24, 2017, 01:52 AMirrespective of whatever political party or President is in power!
All politics aside, I was referring to the presidential directives and the laws that created the Insider Threat Task Force and the Anti-Border Corruption Act.
Here's an excellent article from four years ago addressing this point: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-new-paranoia-a-government-afraid-of-itself/2013/08/15/1f3db594-038a-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html?utm_term=.82ee0fee995a
Quote from: xenonman on Jun 23, 2017, 11:19 PMMaybe someone should address him "pa russkiiy" as he appears to know some Russian?
I don't think so Xenonman. I think he knows how to use Google Translate. ;D
Quote from: xenonman on Jun 24, 2017, 01:52 AMHowever, the mentality behind the policy dates back to the National Security Act of 1947, fourteen years before Obama was born! IC abuses have proliferated since that Act, irrespective of whatever political party or President is in power!
Don't forget, the founders of the CIA were hard corps lefties!
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 23, 2017, 10:23 AMJudging from what you've shown on this site if you didn't have the polygraph you'd be working in a carwash.
Very likely! However, I think Quickfix is hardly unique in that regard. I suspect that the bulk of IC employees would have great difficulties were they ever compelled to seek "real" jobs.
The combined protective mantle of possessing a security clearance and being "polygraph ready" is indeed a powerful cloak for the masking of incompetence. :(
Quote from: xenonman on Jun 28, 2017, 03:31 AMThe combined protective mantle of possessing a security clearance and being "polygraph ready" is indeed a powerful cloak for the masking of incompetence.
You are a true genius Xenonman. You are spot on. Most, if not all, people who have encountered the polygraph have figured this out, but select members of our executive and legislative branches of government buttressed by the media are profiting from polygraph, so it's going strong. Josef Goebbels would be proud that his methods are still widely used and successful :D
Quote from: quickfix on Jun 22, 2017, 05:39 PMThere is no inherent right to a security clearance or federal employment.
You are correct Quickfix. No arguing that there is no right to a security clearance. People of honor and integrity, however, like our Founding Fathers, lived by a code that no one dared impune another man's honor and reputation without absolute
proof of dishonorable action. This code is why men fought duels to the death if anyone falsely accused them of dishonorable action. That fact that you don't understand that concept is clear proof that you have no honor or integrity yourself. Try to get the moral courage to examine yourself and admit at least to yourself, if to no one else, that you are just exploiting an evil system for personal gain. ;)
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 28, 2017, 11:30 PMNo arguing that there is no right to a security clearance.
There is no such right, obviously, but somehow learning that
Monica Lewinsky once held a TS clearance while she was briefly employed at DOD makes me wonder just how reliable any vetting process could possibly be.
Of course, there is no right to employment by ANY employer. Yet, in the application materials of most prospective employers, that obvious fact is usually not regarded as something which need be stated. Interestingly enough, the CIA, for whatever reason, finds it necessary to explicitly state in its employment propaganda that "employment by the Agency is not a right upon which anyone can insist". Something to ponder! ::)
I do not object to current public sector use of the polygraph because I think the applicant is being abused. I'm not applying for a job with the NSA or the CIA, and none of my friends and relatives are either. Unfair treatment of applicants is a very serious civil rights problem, but it is different from the problem that terrifies me.
I object to out government's inordinate reliance on the polygraph because it doesn't work! There is abundant evidence to prove that the lie detector allows the CIA and other TLAs to hire spies, moles, and traitors, and no evidence at all to suggest that it does anything keep the people of America any safer than hiring a witch doctor to do the anti-spy dance.
From the applicants' point of view, the problem of being treated unfairly is self correcting: Each intelligent mature applicant -- once he recovers from the shock of finding his patriotism deemed worthless -- declines to participate, and goes on to find rewarding employment elsewhere.
However, from the government's point of view, the problem of applicants being treated unfairly is self-reinforcing: as the applicant pool is reduced to only the stupid or gullible, government agencies fill up with employees who think there's nothing wrong with their hiring process.
If there's one thing that Aunty loathes and despises more than a citizen who would purchase himself a comfortable government indenture by giving up his essential liberty, it is a coward who would purchase himself a comfortable government indenture by giving up my essential liberty.
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jun 28, 2017, 11:30 PMYou are correct Quickfix. No arguing that there is no right to a security clearance. People of honor and integrity, however, like our Founding Fathers, lived by a code that no one dared impune another man's honor and reputation without absolute proof of dishonorable action. This code is why men fought duels to the death if anyone falsely accused them of dishonorable action. That fact that you don't understand that concept is clear proof that you have no honor or integrity yourself. Try to get the moral courage to examine yourself and admit at least to yourself, if to no one else, that you are just exploiting an evil system for personal gain.
This isn't the 1800s when Aaron Burr shot it out with Alexander Hamilton. The system is evil only if you don't pass your polygraph. I hear no complaints from those who passed. And BTW, the vetting process is just fine. Xenonman is a perfect example of someone weeded out by not one, but two agencies for mental instability-without the need of polygraph testing.
Quote from: quickfix on Jun 29, 2017, 03:17 PMI hear no complaints from those who passed.
Especially from the spies, moles, and traitors who slip through. None of them want to see the polygraph replaced with something that works.
Quote from: quickfix on Jun 29, 2017, 03:17 PMAnd BTW, the vetting process is just fine. Xenonman is a perfect example of someone weeded out by not one, but two agencies for mental instability-without the need of polygraph testing.
Where did you earn your M.D. in psychiatry, quickfix? The same place where you studied Russian, maybe? Incompetent DOD polygraphers are now permitted to make medical diagnoses too? :P
Quote from: AuntyAgony on Jun 29, 2017, 12:24 PMIf there's one thing that Aunty loathes and despises more than a citizen who would purchase himself a comfortable government indenture by giving up his essential liberty, it is a coward who would purchase himself a comfortable government indenture by giving up my essential liberty.
What do you say to an indentured civil servant who was hired by DIA before they mandated polygraphs. One who had already served 20 years in active duty military service - all with a TS/SCI clearance. Then, 14 years later, after five "unsuccessful" polygraphs in three years, was physically removed from his workplace, deemed to be a vulnerability to security, had their clearance yanked and forced to occupy an un-cleared and meaningless position 1,000 miles away?
Aunty, you are correct, this is a serious civil rights problem - of which, to this day, is being permitted to continue.
Why can't we make it stop?
Quotesecurity, had their clearance yanked and forced to occupy an un-cleared and meaningless position 1,000 miles away?
At the CIA, under similar circumstances, I seriously doubt that you would have even been shown the "courtesy" of an uncleared position. :o
Quote from: quickfix on Jun 29, 2017, 03:17 PMThis isn't the 1800s when Aaron Burr shot it out
If Aaron Burr were still around, he could challenge quickfix to a duel on that field in Weehawken! ;D
Quote from: quickfix on Jun 29, 2017, 03:17 PMXenonman is a perfect example of someone weeded out by not one, but two agencies for mental instability-without the need of polygraph testing.
I can't disagree with you on this, quickfix. Xenonman seems mentally unfit to hold a security clearance, or any position of public trust, as evidenced by his repeated publicly stated fantasies about the death/killing of intelligence community personnel.
Quote from: George_Maschke on Jul 06, 2017, 10:22 PMQuote from: quickfix on Jun 29, 2017, 03:17 PMXenonman is a perfect example of someone weeded out by not one, but two agencies for mental instability-without the need of polygraph testing.
I can't disagree with you on this, quickfix. Xenonman seems mentally unfit to hold a security clearance, or any position of public trust, as evidenced by his repeated publicly stated fantasies about the death/killing of intelligence community personnel.
The Agency COS in Den Haag starting to put the heat on, George? ::)
Quote from: George_Maschke on Jul 06, 2017, 10:22 PMI can't disagree with you on this, quickfix. Xenonman seems mentally unfit to hold a security clearance, or any position of public trust, as evidenced by his repeated publicly stated fantasies about the death/killing of intelligence community personnel.
Perhaps he is suffering from PTSD caused by polygraph experiences? :'(
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 07, 2017, 12:12 PMPerhaps he is suffering from PTSD caused by polygraph experiences?
...as well as from learning of the cowardly behavior of many of the uneducated people who had regrettably been unearthed during the course of the BI and who were apparently willing to say just about anything to investigators, thereby rendering the whole convoluted "vetting" process into little more than a popularity contest.. :o
Quote from: George_Maschke on Jul 06, 2017, 10:22 PMI can't disagree with you on this, quickfix. Xenonman seems mentally unfit to hold a security clearance, or any position of public trust, as evidenced by his repeated publicly stated fantasies about the death/killing of intelligence community personnel.
George, perhaps you might consider suspending Xenonman from posting until he takes down the "manifesto" phrases that are his hallmark.
I'm all for the First Amendment, but when someone posts
"May sarin, ricin, and variola major befall Langley"
"What do we call it when every employee of the Agency's Office of Security and Office of Personnel drowns in the Potomac? A great beginning!"
"The best intelligence community employee is a compromised IC employee!"
that goes beyond acceptable behavior on a public website. You may notice that I never respond to Xenonman's posts. Doing so is akin to engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Best to leave the mentally ill, Ted Kaczynski types to their own paranoia.
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 07, 2017, 02:48 PMthat I never respond to Xenonman's posts.
It would be even better if you would stop replying to ALL posts on this site.
If you want to compare me to any of the several brave CIA and NSA whistleblowers of late that's fine, but comparing me to the "Unabomber" is offensive and possible defamatory. >:( >:(
Quote from: George_Maschke on Jul 06, 2017, 10:22 PMXenonman seems mentally unfit to hold a security clearance, or any position of public trust,
I wasn't aware, George, that I held any security clearance or position of public trust, nor that you were recruiting for same! ::)
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 07, 2017, 02:48 PMDoing so is akin to engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
What chutzpah coming from a foul-mouthed ignoramus like you. If Xenonman's calloused comments are worthy of contempt then so are your comments when you make fun of people who have had their lives ruined by being falsely accused by your stupid witchcraft. How many jokes and snide comments have you made about Doug Williams ? Do you think it's funny when a man loses everything and goes to prison, you deranged SOB. >:(
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 07, 2017, 06:08 PMHow many jokes and snide comments have you made about Doug Williams ?
Not nearly enough!
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 07, 2017, 06:08 PMDo you think it's funny when a man loses everything and goes to prison, you deranged SOB.
No, I don't think it's funny- IT'S FUCKING HILARIOUS.
Wandersmann,
I think quickfix's schadenfreude over Doug Williams' incarceration is testimony to the polygraph community's vexation over Doug's decades of public truth-telling about the pseudoscience of polygraphy, and its frustration over its inability to reliably detect polygraph countermeasures.
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 07, 2017, 06:30 PMdon't think it's funny- IT'S FUCKING HILARIOUS.
He's complaining about inappropriate behavior on a public forum? :D
Quote from: George_Maschke on Jul 07, 2017, 10:03 PMWandersmann,
I think quickfix's schadenfreude over Doug Williams' incarceration is testimony to the polygraph community's vexation over Doug's decades of public truth-telling about the pseudoscience of polygraphy, and its frustration over its inability to reliably detect polygraph countermeasures.
Well said Dr. Maschke! I see your talent as a linguist is evidenced by your use of the word "schadenfreude".
Quote from: Doug_Williams on Jul 08, 2017, 04:24 PMWell said Dr. Maschke! I see your talent as a linguist is evidenced by your use of the word "schadenfreude".
According to Freud, all human beings experience
schadenfreude. I think Quickfix goes way beyond that. I think he's a sociopath, or whatever the current name for this mental illness might be . He is clearly a bully. He is also clearly not very well educated which explains why he is a polygraph examiner. (My apologies to the educated polygraph examiners, but you have to admit that your
profession allows a lot of ding bats into its ranks)
Doesn't our PC society now express zero tolerance for bullying by cyber-trolls? If a Federal law enforcement officer was involved in cyber-bullying a criminal defendant there would be an internal affairs investigation and said officer would be identified, fired, and prosecuted. Quickfix apparently doesn't realize that he has identified himself as a Federal officer and therefore, by definition, speaks on behalf of the Federal Government. If his superiors condone this this unethical and immoral activity they are setting themselves up for legal problems because I do not believe his statements are in accordance with Federal regulations. If no one in his office is aware of his posting on this site and he is representing himself as an authority and intimidating potential polygraph victims with implied threat then is he not in violation of the Hobbs Act, acting under
color of official right (18 U.S.C. § 1951)? Let's face it, this site has been created to support victims of polygraph abuse. Quickfix is clearly attempting to intimidate those victims. If there are no legal issues there are certainly administrative issues.
A suggestion Quickfix - If you want to defend your cause, try using cogent arguments and quit insulting people like a 6th grader. Not that it will erase the damage you've already done.
You should worry, you've broken some rules. You better practice those polygraph countermeasures. You might need them when your department starts a witch hunt looking for you. 8-) :D ;D :-*
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 08, 2017, 10:56 PMA suggestion Quickfix - If you want to defend your cause, try using cogent arguments and quit insulting people like a 6th grader. Not that it will erase the damage you've already done.
It is simply amazing to me that a common "profession" (polygraphy) could accommodate such extremes in human nature as are represented by someone as articulate and understanding as a Wandersmann on one hand, and a common thug or schoolyard bully like Quickfix on the other. :o
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 08, 2017, 10:56 PMwhen your department starts a witch hunt looking for you
Unfortunately, I don't think that's likely to ever happen as long as the polygraph continues to serve and endure as an ugly, inextricable tumor on personnel and security practices at all the "three letter" and other federal agencies.
In the short run, there must be Employee Assistance Programs (EAP's) available at the Pentagon and throughout the remainder of the "federal soup" community, that could provide help and referrals for clearly sociopathic and troubled cases such as Quickfix and, doubtlessly, many others :(
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 08, 2017, 10:56 PMQuickfix apparently doesn't realize that he has identified himself as a Federal officer and therefore, by definition, speaks on behalf of the Federal Government.
I represent no one but myself on this site, with the same First Amendment rights any other citizen has.
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 08, 2017, 10:56 PMLet's face it, this site has been created to support victims of polygraph abuse.
Wrong- this site was created to attempt to help people to cheat their way through a polygraph test through the use of countermeasures. Those like you are also here for my amusement, so please continue to entertain me [/quote]
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 08, 2017, 10:56 PMA suggestion Quickfix - If you want to defend your cause, try using cogent arguments and quit insulting people like a 6th grader.
I have a suggestion for you: find something productive to do in your golden years.
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 08, 2017, 10:56 PMYou should worry, you've broken some rules.
Me worried? No, me so happy.
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 09, 2017, 09:55 AMI have a suggestion for you: find something productive to do in your golden years.
I think he's found it! More power to him and to all whose careers have been ruined by the "lager" mentality of the national security state. 8-)
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 09, 2017, 09:55 AMWrong- this site was created to attempt to help people to cheat their way through a polygraph test through the use of countermeasures.
Typical of the bunker mentality of the national security state and its minions: No type of reform is possible nor is needed; "you're either with us, or you're on the payroll of the GRU"! :(
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 09, 2017, 09:55 AMthis site was created to attempt to help people to cheat their way through a polygraph test through the use of countermeasures
This site was created and is maintained to prevent people from being cheated by a polygraph test and to support people who have already been so cheated.
Whether the polygraph operator is trying to cheat the government employee out of his career, or the government employee is trying to cheat his way past the polygraph operator, depends on what rules they have mutually agreed on. The public activity of the society of polygraph operators is entirely devoted to convincing that government employee, the U.S. Congress, and even themselves that Americans live under a set of rules that require everyone to pretend that the polygraph works as a lie detector and that any attempt to "pass" a lie detector test is "cheating".
There are no such rules.
These are the actual rules in effect according to public law:
Studying the polygraph and training yourself to pass a lie detector test when you are not lying is legal. Seeking an instructor for such training is legal. Putting yourself before the public as an instructor of such training is legal. Training others to pass a lie detector test when they are not lying is legal. Assuming that your trainees are not criminals and do not intend to lie is legal. Taking action to enhance your chances of passing a lie detector test when you are not lying is legal. Passing a lie detector test by any means or technique when you are not lying is legal.
Lying to a government official in any constructive way is illegal.
Now that you know the law, there are a couple of things that you should be aware of.
(1) Just because the polygraph is total bullshit doesn't give you the right to lie to a government official during a polygraph examination. I know it feels like you have a moral position here, but you don't, any more than you have the right to burgle someone who installed worthless locks. If you are caught, no one here will support you or offer any sympathy, and in fact Aunty will shake her finger at you.
(2) There are many deluded or malicious people out there who don't want you to know the law, and will continue to argue that refusing to meekly submit to the randomness of a polygraph examination is the same as lying to a government official. Some of those people have even gone so far as to jail Doug Williams for the one and pretend they jailed him for the other. Know the law and remain vigilant.
[I originally included the following paragraph but then edited it out. In the meantime someone commented on it so I'm putting it back]
Remember, studying how to pass the polygraph is legal and within your rights, and lying to a government official is illegal and you can go to jail.
Quote from: AuntyAgony on Jul 09, 2017, 01:00 PMRemember, studying how to pass the polygraph is legal and within your rights, and lying to a government official is illegal and you can go to jail.
Aunty, I can see why people hold you up as the best contributor...once again you nailed it !!!!!!!! Even Quickfix can understand and must agree with what you have said. It is 1+1=2 logic and can't be disputed (by a sane person). When the mother of all law suits finally happens it will be the plaintiff attorney's greatest challenge to represent legitimate victims and not include criminals who attempted to subvert the system, even though that is what criminal defense attorneys get rich by doing. I am ready with 30 years of accommodations, citations, and awards. I never had as much as a verbal reprimand in those 30 years and I believe it is countless cases like mine that will carry the day.
Quickfix, don't kid yourself. You are speaking on this site as an official of the U.S. Government and you are way outside of regulations, at a minimum. You love to spew the "you don't have a right to a security clearance" cliche over and over but you forgot the fact that military personnel and government civilians surrender many of their rights while serving. Think of government employees who must
volunteer to be polygraphed. Based on your postings it is clear that you are either enlisted, warrant officer, or government civilian. Accordingly, you've crossed several lines. You are also crass and insensitive. What about the innocent children of a polygraph victim who loses his/her livelihood to your witchcraft? Do you think it is funny when they also suffer and go hungry? :'(
Xenonman is correct, the serial narcissists running our government don't have the integrity to do what's right in your case at this point in time, but that doesn't negate the fact that you are non-reg and possibly breaking the law. :P
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 09, 2017, 01:20 PMWhat about the innocent children of a polygraph victim who loses his/her livelihood to your witchcraft? [/quo
Are there no prisons? And the union workhouses- are they still in operation?
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 09, 2017, 02:35 PMAre there no prisons? And the union workhouses- are they still in operation?
I love it ! You are a real piece of work. :D You are so over the top I can't help suspect you are a plant to help Anti-Polygraph.org. You've probably recruited more people to the Antipolygraph crowd than George Maschke.
Just in case you really are for real and serious, take some Ritalin and try to follow my logic. You have identified yourself as a government official and in some postings, between deranged insults, you've discussed U.S. Government points-of-view and procedures. This makes you a government spokesman. Your medium for communicating with the American public is this site. There are as many people who can access this site as there are that can access White House press briefings on all the networks.
Based on the above, your status is absolutely no different than the current White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer. You are both government employees speaking on behalf of the U.S. Government through the media that can reach millions of people. Now, imagine putting your missives and profanity-laden dribbling in Sean Spicer's hand and have him read them to the public. What do you think would happen to him ? That's what could happen to you. ;D :D
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 09, 2017, 02:35 PMAnd the union workhouses- are they still in operation?
Some of our Fenian members might not appreciate the reference to "workhouses"! :(
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 09, 2017, 02:35 PMAre there no prisons? And the union workhouses- are they still in operation?
Quickfix, I'm beginning to really enjoy your posts. I'm going to make you a promise that if I ever meet you I will buy you a beer. I appreciate an asshole who is proud to be an asshole. Most of today's assholes try to pretend they are nice people and that is hard to take. Sorry for my vulgarity to those who don't like profanity, but I can't think of a more effective descriptor. :)
I'll have a Heineken.
Quote from: quickfix on Jul 07, 2017, 06:30 PMNo, I don't think it's funny- IT'S FUCKING HILARIOUS.
From a macrocosmic standpoint, the overarching hilarity in the persecution of Doug Williams goes something like this...
A scant two years after the government got its pound of flesh -- and the Operation Liebusters task force achieved collective orgasm -- Doug Williams emerges from prison physically stronger, mentally tougher, and singularly more resolute in his anti-polygraph mission.
But wait, there's more.
Having achieved a venerable (and decidedly marketable) kind of martyrdom by being incarcerated after his decades-long anti-polygraph crusade, Williams is well poised to ascend to new levels of fame and fortune.
But wait, there's still more.
When all is said and done, Operation Liebusters will end up having glorified Doug Williams and bringing even more attention to the vulnerability of polygraph "testing."
Thus, the net effect of Operation Liebusters will likely prove to be an increase in the number of applicants successfully applying countermeasures, and the financial enrichment of Doug Williams.
To many observers of the human condition, that stranger-than-fiction outcome, is, to quote quickfix, "fucking hilarious."
FILE UNDER: Law of Unintended Consequences
Quote from: George_Maschke on Jul 06, 2017, 10:22 PMQuote from: quickfix on Jun 29, 2017, 03:17 PMXenonman is a perfect example of someone weeded out by not one, but two agencies for mental instability-without the need of polygraph testing.
I can't disagree with you on this, quickfix. Xenonman seems mentally unfit to hold a security clearance, or any position of public trust, as evidenced by his repeated publicly stated fantasies about the death/killing of intelligence community personnel.
Dr. George,
Sending a missive like the above to someone with a temper as volatile as quickfix is not unlike handing a jerry can of gasoline and a matchbox to a pyromaniac.
I think that we can agree, George, that a transatlantic psychiatric evaluation made by a layman holds just about the same degree of reliability and accuracy as does the polygraph.
My derogatory, mostly figurative comments regarding the folks in Langley are merely a fulfillment of the apparent expectations of the Agency's polygrapher when he asked if my application there was intended "to cause the Agency harm". In those naive days, I could not understand why anyone would apply for work anywhere in order to "harm" an employer.
Now many years later and possessing a more sophisticated awareness of the recruitment and selection policies of Langley, I am merely attempting to fulfill vicariously the expectations made of me by that polygrapher so long ago. :o
Dan you are absolutely correct. Everything you have said is coming to pass - that, and much, much more! As a matter of fact, I remember you predicting this would happen years ago when the government first began their persecution of me. The Bible says "God causes ALL THINGS to work together for good" - and He is most certainly doing that my case.
How much more time have you in the Federal gulag, Doug?
Will the BOP require to you to report to a "halfway house" upon your release, and/or place you under "Supervised Release" strictures for a defined period? ::)