Hello everyone,
Firstly, I would like to commend the creator of this website for his excellent content and his commitment to educating people about the unethical and inaccurate garbage science that is polygraphy.
Secondly, a personal message to Quickfix; you are a piece of trash human being and I wish the most horrible fate imaginable upon you.
Okay, let me give everyone a little background on myself and my situation. I am a male between the age of 25 and 30 years old. I live in Virginia. I have a Bachelors of Business Administration as well as a Juris Doctorate (law degree). I have work experience in finance. I have a spotless criminal record and background. I have a very good credit history.
I am in the middle of my application process with a certain Federal Agency or State/Local Law Enforcement Agency, I don't like going into specifics that could in anyway help a BI or polygraph examiner identify me (paranoid I know).
I have a very clean background and I am going to be completely truthful on my polygraph. But, as we all know, polygraphs are garbage and can and will fail 50%+ of truthful applicants. This is unacceptable to me. I have massive student debt, quit my finance job because I was miserable and can now not even get an interview for $10 an hour Bank Teller jobs, let alone anything close to the $80,000 a year I was making previously. If I do not pass this polygraph and get this job I will likely end up homeless and default on my student loans. My life will essentially be over. I know if I pass the polygraph I will get the job, I am extremely overqualified and have a speaky clean background. So essentially this make believe tarrot card test is going to decide whether my life continues normally or I become homeless. Wonderful, I know.
Now for my questions. I appreciate all responses, except Quickfix, and thank everyone in advance. I have read this site extensively including the entire The lie behind the lie detector. I just want to clarify a few things as well as see if anyone can add anything else useful.
My plan is thus; right when a question is asked, identify it as either a control question or a relevant question. If it is a control question, exhale and do not inhale for the next breathe for 3-4 seconds. (at all other times during the test I will focus on breathing consistently). Also when i identify the question as control, think of stepping on a snake, getting attacked by a shark, whatever else increases my heart rate and makes me anxious/nervous. I have a question regarding this; is it better to do mental arithmetic? I have tried that and it does not seem to increase my heart rate, is that not a necessary symptom for mental arithmetic to be effective? I ask because sometimes I can think of things mentally that increase my heart rate, but it does not always work. Sometimes I will think of a snake biting me and I get no physiological response that I can notice. This worries me. So I guess a more general way to ask this question would be: what mental countermeasure is most effective and works consistently? Does mental arithmetic actually increase heart rate or is that not the goal of doing that?
Next question. On control questions like "Have you ever stolen anything?" I understand that most people have done this and that the examiner also knows that most people have stolen something at some point. Are you suppose to tell the truth and say yes, while doing countermeasures? Or are you suppose to lie and say no, while doing countermeasures?
Sorry for the long post, but this is extremely important to my life and well being in a big picture, very serious type of way.
When I do take my polygraph I will for sure post a very detailed post about it and will also update it to include if I passed or failed.
Thank you everyone, and never stop educating people about how archaic, inaccurate, unethical and damaging polygraphs are.
I would really appreciate some opinions and advice. Thanks!
Quote from: Hello1977 on Aug 30, 2016, 01:15 PMMy plan is thus; right when a question is asked, identify it as either a control question or a relevant question. If it is a control question, exhale and do not inhale for the next breathe for 3-4 seconds. (at all other times during the test I will focus on breathing consistently). Also when i identify the question as control, think of stepping on a snake, getting attacked by a shark, whatever else increases my heart rate and makes me anxious/nervous. I have a question regarding this; is it better to do mental arithmetic? I have tried that and it does not seem to increase my heart rate, is that not a necessary symptom for mental arithmetic to be effective? I ask because sometimes I can think of things mentally that increase my heart rate, but it does not always work. Sometimes I will think of a snake biting me and I get no physiological response that I can notice. This worries me. So I guess a more general way to ask this question would be: what mental countermeasure is most effective and works consistently? Does mental arithmetic actually increase heart rate or is that not the goal of doing that?
There is no research on the relative effectiveness of different kinds of mental polygraph countermeasures.
On the cardio tracing, polygraph operators look for changes in baseline, which is not directly a function of heart rate. See p 33 ff. of Test Data Analysis: DoDPI Numerical Evaluation Scoring System (https://antipolygraph.org/documents/dodpi-numerical-scoring-08-2006.pdf).
QuoteNext question. On control questions like "Have you ever stolen anything?" I understand that most people have done this and that the examiner also knows that most people have stolen something at some point. Are you suppose to tell the truth and say yes, while doing countermeasures? Or are you suppose to lie and say no, while doing countermeasures?
One should give the
expected answer to the "control" question, which in this case is "no."
Quote from: Hello1977 on Aug 30, 2016, 01:15 PMI am in the middle of my application process with a certain Federal Agency or State/Local Law Enforcement Agency, I don't like going into specifics that could in anyway help a BI or polygraph examiner identify me (paranoid I know).
If you do ultimately work for that "certain federal agency" just off of the George Washington Parkway and VA 123, I can assure you most of your co-workers will very likely have personalities similar to those of our in-house mole, Mr. "
quick fix".
Quote from: Hello1977 on Aug 30, 2016, 10:45 PMI would really appreciate some opinions and advice. Thanks!
Also, as I've expounded on this forum ad nauseum, a possibly even more formidable obstacle than the polygraph to your successfully securing a sinecure in those buildings just off of Dolly Madison's highway will be the lifestyle aspect of the background investigation. :)
Thank you very much George and xenonman. This forum and your contributions are an invaluable resource. I look forward to getting this silly test out of the way and being able to post a detailed report of my experience, which will hopefully end with a "pass".
George, I will read further on that subject and carefully read the link you posted. If I have any further questions I will post them in this thread.
Once again, thank you!
Quote from: Hello1977 on Aug 31, 2016, 10:14 AMThank you very much George and xenonman. This forum and your contributions are an invaluable resource. I look forward to getting this silly test out of the way and being able to post a detailed report of my experience, which will hopefully end with a "pass".
George, I will read further on that subject and carefully read the link you posted. If I have any further questions I will post them in this thread.
Once again, thank you!
I'll be most interested in learning more of your experiences as you wend the torturous path! :)
George, thank you very much for your response. I have a few lingering questions, though.
I read the link you provided as well as the entire lie behind the lie detector. Forgive my ignorance but I don't seem to understand what change from baseline they measure on your heart rate, if not increased bpm. What else besides BPM and blood pressure does the machine catalog? What physiological changes are you trying to accomplish during the control questions, in regards to heart beat? What does doing mental arithmetic do to your circulatory system responses? Sorry if these are stupid questions, I apologize. I guess the way those polygraph examiner books are written is geared more towards dumbass tarrot card readers with a reading level of a 8th grader. Is my strategy of when I get a control question, exhale and do not inhale for 3-4 seconds, then answer yes or no, a solid strategy? Anything you would add or tweak in regards to my breathing countermeasure plan?
Secondly, I now understand you must give the "expected" answer on control questions. But, I'm confused, so the examiner is cool with you lying on control questions but not relevant? Seems pretty hypocritical and defeats the "purpose" of the test; i.e. finding out if the examinee is truthful and will answer the testers questions honestly. If someone is lying on the control questions regarding if you have ever stolen something before, why would the examiner believe anything you say from that point on? I guess it doesn't matter, and I understand I must play the game, but it just seems pretty counter-intuitive. Forgive my rambling.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond, George, I know you must be a very busy man and I am extremely grateful for your expertise.
If anyone besides George has anything to add from their own personal experiences or just their general knowledge, please post it.
Rest assured, I will post an extremely detailed post about my polygraph experience, with an update included stating if I passed it or failed it.
A problem I foresee is the fact that I need this job very badly and am terrified of failing the polygraph and thus not getting the job. I think it is inevitable that this is going to play a role in my "results".
One more critical point for you:
If you are desperate for work, do NOT put all your eggs in one basket, with respect to employment in the intelligence community (if that is where you are in fact seeking employment)
The statistical odds against ultimately being hired are grossly stacked against you, and the application process can drag on for months.
The most frustrating aspect about employment at the so-called "three-letter" agencies is learning that whatever qualifications you may enjoy and enthusiasm for finding work there all count for zilch. The primary concern is how much dirt that can or can't be found in your background.
Another "fringe benefit" of working in the intelligence community is that many of your co-workers will display personality quirks similar to those of a "quickfix" !
Just out of curiosity, can't you find any work with a JD in VA?
:-/
xenonman:
Thank you for the advice! I am painfully aware of how slim of a chance even a qualified applicant has for securing employment with a federal intelligence agency. I have applied to a wide range of federal agencies and/or state and local law enforcement agencies. The problem being that once I fail one polygraph I imagine I will be blacklisted from the rest of the jobs as well. I apply to hundreds of jobs, most of which I am grossly overqualified for. (Such as a bank Teller making $10-$12 an hour). I can not find employment with a job that requires a JD. My only experience is in banking/finance jobs but I am obviously willing to change industries. Some very tough times as far as securing employment currently in America.
Jesus, the thought of having to interact with people similar to Quickfix is a daunting prospect indeed. Although, in person I bet he is a beta that I would mentally dominate and by the 2nd day he would be bringing me my coffee.
Quote from: Hello1977 on Sep 01, 2016, 11:54 AMAlthough, in person I bet he is a beta that I would mentally dominate and by the 2nd day he would be bringing me my coffee.
Don't worry, asshole, when you fail your first polygraph, you won't be invited back for a second one, so you better ask for that coffee on day one.
Quote from: quickfix on Sep 01, 2016, 02:27 PMQuote from: Hello1977 on Sep 01, 2016, 11:54 AMAlthough, in person I bet he is a beta that I would mentally dominate and by the 2nd day he would be bringing me my coffee.
Don't worry, asshole, when you fail your first polygraph, you won't be invited back for a second one, so you better ask for that coffee on day one.
hahahaha TRIGGERED!
laughing my ass off. thanks for that quickfix. Where's my coffee?
ROTFLMAO!
A most predictable display of federal polygraph operator hubris.
Quickifix, while you're at it, please make mine with cream and two sugars.
What a schmuck... Quickfix took the bait like a novice.
Classic.
Quote from: danmangan on Sep 01, 2016, 09:19 PMROTFLMAO!
A most predictable display of federal polygraph operator hubris.
Quickifix, while you're at it, please make mine with cream and two sugars.
What a schmuck... Quickfix took the bait like a novice.
Classic.
hahaha good times, good times.
Dan, would you care to weigh in on my strategy and perhaps answer the follow up questions I had in regards to George's response? I understand you are a polygraph examiner but I am going to be 100% truthful on my polygraph and am simply afraid of a false positive. I do not think it would be unethical or unprofessional in anyway to assist someone in not failing for a false positive.
At the least, it's nice to see a polygraph examiner who does not have the personality of a nazi extermination camp guard.
As a polygraph examiner, do you recognize and admit to the severe shortcomings of the polygraph? Do you agree that many qualified applicants have been rejected from jobs because of false positives? Not trying to attack you, just would love to see an examiner acknowledge the reality of the situation.
Quote from: Hello1977 on Sep 01, 2016, 10:48 PMAt the least, it's nice to see a polygraph examiner who does not have the personality of a nazi extermination camp guard.
Dear Hello1977 - You beat me too it ! I was going to post that it was too bad that Quickfix wasn't born in Germany in the 1920's - He would have made an excellent concentration camp guard ! Let's hope that he and all other federal polygraph operators share the same fate as the Nazi concentration camp guards. (I am saying being put on trial, not advocating violence)
::)Actually they are more of the ilk of the concentration camp commandants. More innocent blood on their hands.
Quote from: Hello1977 on Aug 31, 2016, 09:47 PMGeorge, thank you very much for your response. I have a few lingering questions, though.
I read the link you provided as well as the entire lie behind the lie detector. Forgive my ignorance but I don't seem to understand what change from baseline they measure on your heart rate, if not increased bpm. What else besides BPM and blood pressure does the machine catalog?
The cardio channel reflects changes in blood pressure and heart rate. The baseline (that is, the vertical position of the cardio waveform on the chart) rises or falls with changes in blood pressure.
QuoteWhat physiological changes are you trying to accomplish during the control questions, in regards to heart beat? What does doing mental arithmetic do to your circulatory system responses?
The cardio channel (unlike the respiratory channel) cannot be directly manipulated. However, mental such as rapidly performing mental arithmetic or physical countermeasures such as tongue-biting may result in timely changes in blood pressure and heart rate.
QuoteSorry if these are stupid questions, I apologize. I guess the way those polygraph examiner books are written is geared more towards dumbass tarrot card readers with a reading level of a 8th grader. Is my strategy of when I get a control question, exhale and do not inhale for 3-4 seconds, then answer yes or no, a solid strategy? Anything you would add or tweak in regards to my breathing countermeasure plan?
Yes. It's a solid strategy. I believe that DIA polygraph chief Brett A. Stern in fact specifically mentioned this in a presentation a few years back.
QuoteSecondly, I now understand you must give the "expected" answer on control questions. But, I'm confused, so the examiner is cool with you lying on control questions but not relevant?
Correct.
QuoteSeems pretty hypocritical and defeats the "purpose" of the test; i.e. finding out if the examinee is truthful and will answer the testers questions honestly. If someone is lying on the control questions regarding if you have ever stolen something before, why would the examiner believe anything you say from that point on? I guess it doesn't matter, and I understand I must play the game, but it just seems pretty counter-intuitive. Forgive my rambling.
Remember that polygraphy is the brainchild of interrogators, not scientists. The main polygraph method in use today was devised by a crackpot who was persuaded that plants can read human minds (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=435.msg2012#msg2012).
Quote from: Hello1977 on Sep 01, 2016, 10:48 PMDan, would you care to weigh in on my strategy and perhaps answer the follow up questions I had...
Hello1977, I do not recommend the use of countermeasures, nor do I provide advice on their implementation.
As a polygraph examiner and full member of the American Polygraph Association, I hold a view that is largely deemed by the APA to be naked heresy: I agree with the findings of the National Academy of Sciences as described in their exhaustive report, "The Polygraph and Lie Detection." That makes me an apostate within the polygraph "profession."
With regard to your situation, I predict that most of the in-test countermeasure attempts you employ -- as well as your "alpha" play-acting -- will backfire.
George, I appreciate your detailed responses a great deal, thank you. I feel confident but still nervous because I have never taken one before and because I need this job badly.
Dan, I appreciate your candid opinion and can respect the positions you take. If only more polygraph examiners were like yourself.
Also Dan, I do not intend to act "alpha" at my polygraph examination. That comment was a joke about how if I had a colleague like quickfix, I would likely make them my bitch within the first couple of days. During my examination I intent to be friendly, humble, let the examiner feel like they are in control and also act like i believe polygraphs are 100% accurate.
I have my polygraph in the next 7-14 days and then will post my experience 3-7 days after the test, so as to not be easily identified.
I welcome any addition comments or opinions on my strategy and situation. Thank you everyone, and wish me luck!
Still waiting on that coffee quickfix.
If you really want a job at one of those three-letter-organizations, my advice is not to come in with the expectation of "I have to pass now, or my life is over." I eventually ended up passing after at least four tries, and I found the process incredibly abusive, but I'm stubborn and figured I'd go as long as they kept inviting me (not sure that's a healthy personality attribute to have).
The stars aligned eventually, I guess. The real question is whether you really want to work long term for an organization that will continue to put you through this process once every five years? :(
Quote from: danmangan on Sep 01, 2016, 09:19 PMROTFLMAO!
A most predictable display of federal polygraph operator hubris.
Quickifix, while you're at it, please make mine with cream and two sugars.
What a schmuck... Quickfix took the bait like a novice.
Classic.
From the hostile tone and similar vocabulary of his replies, I seriously believe that quickfix may have been the one responsible from my removal from the "federal soup" forum. :o
QuoteIf you really want a job at one of those three-letter-organizations, my advice is not to come in with the expectation of "I have to pass now, or my life is over." I eventually ended up passing after at least four tries, and I found the process incredibly abusive, but I'm stubborn and figured I'd go as long as they kept inviting me (not sure that's a healthy personality attribute to have).
The stars aligned eventually, I guess. The real question is whether you really want to work long term for an organization that will continue to put you through this process once every five years? :(
That's very impressive that you were given four such opportunities.
For most applicants, it's just one shot, and then they're out the door until at least their 120th birthday. ;D
Quote from: Hello1977 on Sep 03, 2016, 01:07 AMStill waiting on that coffee quickfix.
Just hope that Mr. QF doesn't spike your coffee with the "truth serum"! :D
Hello again everyone. I will be starting a new thread titled "A success story", to hopefully allow for more people to read my hypothetical experience. Long story short, I passed, hypothetically. The new thread will have a detailed account of my hypothetical experience.
It's also worth noting that all of my personal information included in my first post, including my education, degrees earned, former employment, everything, was completely fabricated and not accurate. I put fake personal information so as to not be easily identified.
Quote from: Hello1977 on Sep 27, 2016, 11:44 PMHello again everyone. I will be starting a new thread titled "A success story", to hopefully allow for more people to read my hypothetical experience. Long story short, I passed, hypothetically. The new thread will have a detailed account of my hypothetical experience.
What is meant by "hypothetical" here? :-?
Quote from: xenonman on Sep 10, 2016, 06:13 AMA most predictable display of federal polygraph operator hubris.
More accurately, very probably "intelligence community" hubris. ;D