Let me preface by saying that if you get a false positive then that sucks. But a good question is why shouldn't you be rejected for a government position if you produce a false positive?
Polygraphs are good at gauging composure, which is a critical component in working with security and intelligence. If you're rattled by thoughts of drugs, terrorism or confrontation (e.g. false accusations) then government work probably isn't for you.
QuotePolygraphs are good at gauging composure
Can you provide the research data to substantiate this claim?
Stefano,
What in particular about that sentence causes you concern?
Symptoms of acute stress response are well known (I can't post links but if you google "acute stress response" and you'll find plenty).
If the words "gauge" and "composure" are giving you problems then the dictionary can help us out:
To gauge (verb):
to appraise, estimate, or judge
Composure (noun):
serene, self-controlled state of mind; calmness; tranquillity
Antonyms of composure (which is what we're actually talking about):
agitation, alarm, anxiety, discomposure, excitableness, upset, worry
Plenty of things can cause anxiety, alarm, agitation, upset, worry and excitableness. The polygraph instruments (the same attachments used in hospitals) only record those changes.
The point of the post was to say that if you can't maintain your cool under pressure then you probably shouldn't have secret clearance. It doesn't matter whether you tell the truth: it only matters whether you can remain composed under pressure.
QuoteWhat in particular about that sentence causes you concern?
I think most in this forum would agree that I can pretermit your tutoring in the lexicon.
What causes me concern is that you have ordained yet another false claim upon the polygraph. I asked you to provide the research and/or empirical data that you have to substantiate this newly discovered power of the polygraph.
Stefano,
Nice! Combative and insecure. I bet the polygrapher who rubbed you the wrong way really enjoyed himself.
Now that your personal needs have been taken care of by your attempt to prove yourself to me (a stranger), I'm going to ask you for the second time:
What in particular is causing you concern?
I'll put the possible problems in multiple-choice form because your reading comprehension skills are, for whatever reason, not up to par at the moment:
A) The polygraph measures stress
B) If you're stressed, you're not composed
C) If you're not composed, you may get a false positive
D) If you lack composure, you probably shouldn't work where security clearances are required
So in other words, you have no data. It's all based upon whim and conjecture--thought so.
The classic moment of failure: resteer and discredit. If you're unable to articulate your own thoughts then what can you do? I'll give you one last try, though, because it can't be your intent to ask broad questions and NOT get an answer:
What are you asking me to provide data for exactly? You just need to narrow it down for me because, as you saw, there are at least 4 different interpretations. I'm here, responding for your benefit, wasting my time with you, just make sure you get what you need. The least you can do is ask an intelligent question by focusing it to a specific point. This should be easy: you do love pretending to be intelligent.
Gore,
While your knuckle-dragger humor may generate thunders of mirth from the back corner of the donut shop, it does little here among those with some critical thinking.
You say that the polygraph can be a "good gauge of composure."
How so? tell me, how much amplitude of a galvanic skin response is required to show a deterioration of composure? Are beta responders more composed than alpha responders? What threshhold of thoracic apnea would indicate acceptable composure? Please elaborate on this newly discovered technique.
Maybe humour would ease you up a bit. I bet you typed those phrases through clenched teeth. Think of this as a good anal sphincter exercise.
Composure, as the dictionary already defined for us, indicates a mind that is tranquil and calm. The polygrapher uses the polygraph to search for acute stress responses, which are motivated by fight-or-flight responses through abrupt changes in breathing, skin response and heart rate. If you are stressed then your mind cannot be composed by definition.
Additionally, if you've the read the DoDPI, which I'm sure you have, one of the first indicators listed under "Truthful Attitudes" is "composed". As you're well aware, the polygrapher monitors behavioural and mood changes.
So, the polygraph instrument is a good gauge of composure because that is its primary job. If you're composed, you WILL pass because no ASRs will be picked up (i.e. you won't be anxious, you won't be worried, you won't be stressed, you won't be anything but relaxed the whole time).
I'm sure Bill Brown, the resident polyprapher, can corroborate that. If you lack composure, it doesn't indicate that you will fail but you MAY end up with a false positive or inconclusive result. If you have a false positive it means you weren't composed through the entire exam (otherwise you would have passed). If you can't maintain composure why should the government hire you and give you a security clearance?
So you cannot provide any data, nor any articulation of your theory that the polygraph can gauge composure.
You may be powerful in the interrogation room, but in this forum, you are an intellectual eunuch.
Pailryder and Quickfix, I hope this is not an example of your bringing in a big gun, because it's a real dud.
Stefano,
I'm sure it makes you feel powerful to say things like "intellectual eunuch" but don't try to change the subject and don't run to your buddies. Just point, like the intelligent person you are, to what's wrong with what I've said and make a counter-argument.
This is a conversation, not a way for you to react emotionally after everything I say and then make wild generalized statements.
Now, try it again. Set aside your emotions, use your brain, analyse the statements and put me in my place where I'm wrong. If it's not possible to stay focused and make critical analyses then just let me know. I'll unhook you and file away your report.
Yes, those polygraph machines can gauge composure because, after all, they have the same attachments as in the hospital.
Gore Sassoon,
Your analysis of polygraph is off target. Composure has little to do with passing a polygraph, it may be good in the pretest and post test interviews. You should have ASR to some questions, and your suggestion that you were not composed enough is fallacious at best. If you have research that indicates differently please post the link so I may study and learn.
QuoteSet aside your emotions, use your brain, analyse the statements and put me in my place where I'm wrong.If it's not possible to stay focused and make critical analyses then just let me know
So apparently you have gauged my composure to be inadequate? Oh my, how can I go on?
Sorry, I have to side with Stefano on this (I can't believe I'm saying that!); obviously a polygraph instrument cannot measure composure; it's not a quanitfiable condition, although some aspects of it are (i.e. blood pressure); polygraph components are not identical to medical devices used in hospitals; first of all, a cardio cuff on a polygraph instrument does not record blood pressure; it monitors and records relative blood volume; that's not the same thing; you can calculate pulse rate, but you can't determine someone's blood pressure "reading", i.e.130 over 70, etc. Furthermore, I have never seen polygraph pneumo tubes used in any hospital, clinic, or emergency room I have ever been in.
As a former clearance adjudicator, I can also say with authority that "composure" is not an emotional state that may be used to deny or revoke someone's clearance. Behavior as a result of loss of composure certainly is; I'm sure you are familiar with the term "going postal"; coming back with an uzi and whacking your co-workers is loss of composure but is behavioral; raising one's voice in anger may also be construed as loss of composure, but no one has ever lost their clearance for that.
Stefano's point is on target here; unless you have data to support your statement, it is opinion only.
So it's the word "composure" that's throwing you guys off. I'll let the team at the Arkansas Polygraph Association summarise a particular case for us:
"In the case, US v. Scheffer, it was ruled by the Supreme Court that polygraph evidence dint [sic] not have to be admitted in military court as evidence as the military were trained enough in keep[ing] their composure and could cheat polygraphs with their calm demeanor."
The link is: arkansaspolygraphassociation(dot)com/officers
As a funny side note, the accused was trying to use the polygraph results in his favour.
Aimes, a successful polygraph foiler, posited: "...go into the test rested and relaxed.... try to maintain your calm."
While "composure" is a state of mind representing calm. The result of a calm body can be measured. Pulse, blood pressure and breathing all occur within a normal range. When your body is stressed, your pulse increases, blood pressure increases and breathing rate increases. And if your body is stressed, your mind is stressed.
Now, each person's baseline is slightly different. If you are composed, meaning you are RELAXED and CALM, your body will not indicate an increase in the aforementioned items.
All of this information can be found in the book on this site.
Stefano/quickfix,
Arkansas Polygraph Association's page:
"Polygraph machines are made using a combination of medical devices that monitor any change occurring in the body."
California Forensics:
"The polygraph instrument is basically a combination of medical devices that are used to monitor changes occurring within the examinee's body."
Bill Brown,
Let me ask you two questions because you're obviously the person with the most experience here:
1) When a person's mental state changes from calm to stressed, are there physiological indications of such changes?
2) If physiological changes occur, is the polygraph able to record those changes?
So it's the word "composure" that's throwing you guys off. I'll let the team at the Arkansas Polygraph Association summarise a particular case for us:
"In the case, US v. Scheffer, it was ruled by the Supreme Court that polygraph evidence dint [sic] not have to be admitted in military court as evidence as the military were trained enough in keep[ing] their composure and could cheat polygraphs with their calm demeanor."
The link is: arkansaspolygraphassociation(dot)com/officers
As a funny side note, the accused was trying to use the polygraph results in his favour.
Aimes, a successful polygraph foiler, posited: "...go into the test rested and relaxed.... try to maintain your calm."
While "composure" is a state of mind representing calm. The result of a calm body can be measured. Pulse, blood pressure and breathing all occur within a normal range. When your body is stressed, your pulse increases, blood pressure increases and breathing rate increases. And if your body is stressed, your mind is stressed.
Now, each person's baseline is slightly different. If you are composed, meaning you are RELAXED and CALM, your body will not indicate an increase in the aforementioned items.
All of this information can be found in the book on this site.
Stefano/quickfix,
Arkansas Polygraph Association's page:
"Polygraph machines are made using a combination of medical devices that monitor any change occurring in the body."
California Forensics:
"The polygraph instrument is basically a combination of medical devices that are used to monitor changes occurring within the examinee's body."
Bill Brown,
Let me ask you two questions because you're obviously the person with the most experience here:
1) When a person's mental state changes from calm to stressed, are there physiological indications of such changes?
2) If physiological changes occur, is the polygraph able to record those changes?
Sorry for the duplicate.
Gore, you need to read up on how the sympathetic and parasympathetic components of the autonomous central nervous system interact. Until you get at least a layman's understanding, it would be futile to further discuss this subject with you.
*Quickfix, that's a much better side of you. That Eddy Haskell stuff is misleading. thanks.
Stefano,
Pull your pseudo-intellectual head out of your bum and enlighten me. Why is it that you can never write anything substantial? You seem to have a knack for writing sentences that are broad and contribute nothing.
Now, if you'll be so kind as to tell me why the APA and Ames were incorrect, using that big noggin of yours that you pretend is so full yet has failed to produce ANY data, sites with data or even anecdotes.
Of course, you can always just stop writing back. It would certainly be your best argument so far because then I'd at least know that you have some level of reading comprehension.
I'm sorry Gore, but it's like trying to explain general relativity to an amoeba. I'm done, good luck to you.
Stefano,
That's what I thought.
Let me leave you with some final words to chew on. Your only experience with the polygraph is the one time you failed it. You're incapable of articulating your thoughts (if you even have any), you're incapable of critical thinking and you're a failure. It's no wonder the government rejected you.
Toodles,
GS
Gee, I have finally been put in my place by a real expert. I feel so humble now.
"toodles" ?
get my head of my "bum" ?
This is one for the books! ;D
Quote from: Gore Sassoon on Jun 26, 2012, 02:23 PMLet me preface by saying that if you get a false positive then that sucks. But a good question is why shouldn't you be rejected for a government position if you produce a false positive?
Polygraphs are good at gauging composure, which is a critical component in working with security and intelligence. If you're rattled by thoughts of drugs, terrorism or confrontation (e.g. false accusations) then government work probably isn't for you.
This seems to assume that false positives consist of a false accusation of deception by the polygraph operator, followed by a loss of composure by the examinee.
That is not how my false positives went. Do you have any data to show what percentage of false positives occur that way?
And, BTW, this seems more like rationalization than anything else. The polygraph is not touted as a way to measure someone's composure under stressful conditions - it is purported to be a scientifically valid method of detecting deception. If it is unable to do that accurately, as in the case of a false positive, the polygraph and its operator have utterly failed in their mission. To try and claim that they have succeeded in some tangential fashion by showing that the examinee loses composure under stress is disingenuous at best.
i dont know about the composure argument. i think staying calm helps but thats good advice for anything you do.
the real question is how can you prove a false positive? the only person who knows the truth is the person taking the exam. theres no way to quantify that its truly a false positive, true positive, false negative or true negative. if you could quantify it then the method you used to do so would replace the polygraph.
Quotethe only person who knows the truth is the person taking the exam.
Duck,
You hit the nail on the head.
Bill Brown,
Let me ask you two questions because you're obviously the person with the most experience here:
1) When a person's mental state changes from calm to stressed, are there physiological indications of such changes?
2) If physiological changes occur, is the polygraph able to record those changes?
Let me restate what you have said:
1) When a persons brain perceives a threat are there physiological indications of such changes?
Yes, relative blood pressure changes, GSR changes and changes in respiration are generally observed.
2) Is polygraph able to record these changes?
Yes
I have restated your supposition using terms better understood in the polygraph arena and discarded your words regarding "Calm and Stressed". Current studies have shown that a conflict in mental processes may cause the neurotransmitters in the brain to activate and cause physiological changes to occur. The recording instrument, a polygraph, records these changes and the examiner then studies the changes and renders an opinion. All physiological changes are not recorded by the instrument pupillary dilation being one of several.
I believe you should study polygraph more so your statements reflect the proper wording to make your point. Attacks on other persons posting in reply to your statements does not bolster your argument. (and does not reflect well on your ability to demonstrate sound reasoning). I do hope this was not offensive to you.
You may wish to look at Stefano and Quikfixe's posting history to get a clear picture of their background and knowledge. Both have an abundance of knowledge in this area. I suspect equal to or surpassing my own knowledge base.
An officer I met at an instructor development class is a tactical officer in a large city. He does lots of search warrants on drug houses - what is often called "tumultuous entry." In other words, he is in the stack outside the door when they yell "Police! Search warrant!" and smash the door open with a battering ram. He has probably had more guns pointed at his face than I have seen in my lifetime. His coworkers all describe him as being utterly cool and composed during every raid, even when taking fire or having someone rush him with a knife or a baseball bat.
In this class, we all had to develop a lesson plan and teach ten minutes of it in front of everyone else. I thought this guy was going to have a heart attack. He was beet-red in the face, was nearly hyperventilating, and he could barely remember the title of his presentation. He was literally terrified of getting up in front of a group and speaking. And the group he was teaching was all other cops he knew at least to some degree.
If someone going through the arduous and tedious police application process is wrongly accused of some crime that will derail their chances of ever becoming a cop, it is entirely normal if they show stress. Sometimes a great deal of stress. The fact that they do is entirely unrelated to how they will or will not function under stress on the job.
And I might add to Sergeant1107's post, the stress he is talking about would not be to any question on the polygraph examination, it would be observed throughout the entire exam and should not affect any particular question on the examination. It is simply the norm for that individual. There would be no mental conflict to any particular question, only overall "stress".