I'll try and keep this short. I am currently Military and was told upon enlisting to "lie" on my SF86 about drug use. After a year and a half I received my clearance with no issues and passed my CI polygraph. 4 years ago while having a TS/SCI Clearance I used club drugs aka "Ecstasy" about 5 times during the course of 4 months. Since then I have stopped and never touched it again. I came up for review in early 2011 and did not report any drug use at all remembering out of fear what my recruiter said initially and scared I would loose my clearance. I was cleared and got a new TS/SCI clearance and passed a second CI Poly with flying colors. I am now coming up on separation from the military and got a job with a company requiring a Full Scope Polygraph. My question is, if I go into this polygraph and I am 100% completely honest with them about my limited drug use will I pass it? If not will they take my clearance for "Lying on a SF86?". What will happen if I am honest with them? I would really like to just get it all off my chest and be forthcoming. I have been told by several people that have done an array of crimes including steroids, non-prescribed pain med abuse, alcohol abuse, and other things that they went in and were just 100% honest and they were cleared and passed. Will this be my best route? Also would going to the Security Officers and telling them about the incidents before the polygraph give me a better chance?
Quote from: Kegra86 on Apr 03, 2012, 07:07 PMI would really like to just get it all off my chest and be forthcoming.
This sounds like a line an examiner would use to urge you to make admissions. Nobody can assure you that your 100% honesty will set you free; we would all like to believe so, but sadly, the realities of the world transcend such ethics. I cannot understand how anyone would even want a career that causes so much stress and worry. I can only offer you my personal opinion: only make admissions to God, and even then, not in writing.
You're getting terrible advice from Stefano. You will be asked about past drug involvement (not only use, but possession, sale, transporting, etc), and, whether you falsified your SF-86. These questions are standard for a full-scope; you passed your CI-scope polys because those issues were not tested. Leaves you a choice, either discuss it with the examiner, or don't, and hope for the best, or try to use CMs. You'll most likely be getting an R/I test, so you can't attack control questions with CMs. If you fail and don't get hired, maybe you can send Stefano a personal thank-you for losing you a job opportunity.
Kegra86,
I suggest you search back and read some of Quickfix's postings and you will "quickly" get the idea.
My only exposure to your scenario is from accounts posted on this website. I recall many who trusted the system and told the truth only to be cast aside anyway like a pair of old worn out shoes.
Nobody can force you to make any admissions, and once you start, they've got you.
I stand by my previous opinion.
Kegra86
Your post indicates you already know the right course of action. For most of us ideas like honor and duty have little impact on our thoughts and decisions or workplaces. But that is not you, is it? You don't have to present yourself as perfect; flawed but truthful is the best any of us can do. Look em in the eyes and tell the truth. Good luck. Thank you for your service to our country.
Kegra,
Keep in mind that this John Wayne idealism is being brought to you by polygraph examiners. Already, they are trying to appeal to your sense of duty to do the "right thing." Be careful of wolves in sheeps clothing. Cover your own ass friend.
stefano
Do I correctly recall you once posted that in your opinion it is always morally wrong to lie?
Quote from: Kegra86 on Apr 03, 2012, 07:07 PMI'll try and keep this short. I am currently Military and was told upon enlisting to "lie" on my SF86 about drug use. After a year and a half I received my clearance with no issues and passed my CI polygraph. 4 years ago while having a TS/SCI Clearance I used club drugs aka "Ecstasy" about 5 times during the course of 4 months. Since then I have stopped and never touched it again. I came up for review in early 2011 and did not report any drug use at all remembering out of fear what my recruiter said initially and scared I would loose my clearance. I was cleared and got a new TS/SCI clearance and passed a second CI Poly with flying colors. I am now coming up on separation from the military and got a job with a company requiring a Full Scope Polygraph. My question is, if I go into this polygraph and I am 100% completely honest with them about my limited drug use will I pass it? If not will they take my clearance for "Lying on a SF86?". What will happen if I am honest with them? I would really like to just get it all off my chest and be forthcoming. I have been told by several people that have done an array of crimes including steroids, non-prescribed pain med abuse, alcohol abuse, and other things that they went in and were just 100% honest and they were cleared and passed. Will this be my best route? Also would going to the Security Officers and telling them about the incidents before the polygraph give me a better chance?
You should tell the truth and be prepared to accept any consequences for your past choices, as any responsible adult should.
Everyone makes mistakes. If your past mistakes have an impact on your future plans, so be it. Try not to worry if you will pass or fail, since that is really beyond your control. What is within your control is whether you will lie or be honest.
Yes I believe it is wrong to lie. My post was about making admissions. You are encouraging him to admit to perjury.
Quote from: Sergeant1107 on Apr 06, 2012, 09:09 AMEveryone makes mistakes.If your past mistakes have an impact on your future plans, so be it.
So be it? How about not allowing some dweeb with a polygraph have any impact on your future plans in the first place?
Quote from: stefano on Apr 06, 2012, 10:06 AMQuote from: Sergeant1107 on Apr 06, 2012, 09:09 AMEveryone makes mistakes.If your past mistakes have an impact on your future plans, so be it.
So be it? How about not allowing some dweeb with a polygraph have any impact on your future plans in the first place?
In this particular case I would not characterize it as the dweeb with the polygraph having an impact. I think it is more accurate to characterize it as the OP's poor choices in the past having an impact.
If he has the option to avoid a polygraph that is always the best idea. If he has to pass one in order to get the job he wants, the polygraph operator will have an impact, regardless of whether the OP lies or is honest. I think it is better to simply tell the truth and accept whatever consequences result from your past choices. If choices he made in the past have a negative impact on his chances for the job he wants, I believe a responsible adult would simply accept that and move on.
Quote from: Sergeant1107 on Apr 06, 2012, 10:54 AMI think it is better to simply tell the truth and accept whatever consequences result from your past choices.
I am sure you've said similar things to others as you walked them to the lock up. I respect your opinion Sarge, but I don't trust the lot of them.
Quote from: stefano on Apr 06, 2012, 03:57 PMQuote from: Sergeant1107 on Apr 06, 2012, 10:54 AMI think it is better to simply tell the truth and accept whatever consequences result from your past choices.
I am sure you've said similar things to others as you walked them to the lock up. I respect your opinion Sarge, but I don't trust the lot of them.
I've given the same advice to other cops who screwed up and were considering lying or covering it up. What else can you do but "man up" and admit you made a mistake and are willing to deal with the consequences?
Quote from: stefano on Apr 06, 2012, 09:47 AMYes I believe it is wrong to lie. My post was about making admissions. You are encouraging him to admit to perjury
So, it is wrong to lie, but okay to lie if the truth hurts?
Quote from: pailryder on Apr 09, 2012, 06:40 AMSo, it is wrong to lie, but okay to lie if the truth hurts?
What is not okay Pailryder is to make admissions to some dolt whose only qualification is having passed a 320 hour course. You act like polygraph examiners are some kind of higher power to whom deference must be paid, but in reality you are pitiful little men with a crystal ball.
Kegra,
So now you have heard both sides of the argument. You can fall for their charade and admit to perjury in hopes of landing a job, or you can be smarter than they are. Don't be fooled by power words like "Full Scope", these kinds of terms are invented by those who wish they had a bigger hardon.
The reality is that they are simpletons, just be smarter than they are and beat them--it happens every day, and remember what I said: cover your own ass.
Good luck.
Kegra
It is true that liars think they are smarter than other people. But remember you are not lying just to the simple minded dweeb with the crystal ball. You are also lying to your background investigator, the hiring authority, your future bosses and coworkers and you are putting yourself at risk of your falsehoods being uncovered over time.
P.S. When a poster resorts to name calling and personal insults, you can be pretty sure they have run short on legit arguments.
Polygraphers, and background investigators, really will only find out what you or others tell them. Polygraphers want you to confess, as do police, prosecutors, etc. It makes their job that much easier.
I was polygraphed by one intelligence agency, I was totally honest but nervous as hell, and failed. Later I was polygraphed by another intelligence agency, I lied out my ass and used CMs, and I passed. By this point I knew how the poly worked and I didn't confess to anything and just played the game.
Many people with high clearances and such have lied and hid things to get their job. I know of federal agents who do naughty things in strip clubs, drink and drive, are borderline pedophiles, and other bad things. If nobody knows you took the pills, then nobody needs to know, including the polygraphers. You want the job don't you?! In the end, let God judge you, not the polygraphers.
This really has nothing at all to do with the polygraph. I don't like the polygraph, but whether I should tell the truth or lie has nothing to do with the polygraph.
I also conduct background investigations, and the one thing that will derail an applicant faster than just about anything else is lying. I know that everyone I interview is not perfect and has made mistakes, but I also know that each of them can choose to be truthful or they can choose to lie.
In doing background investigations, I have passed lots of people who were truthful about mistakes they made in the passed.
Regardless of how you feel about the polygraph (and I am certainly no fan of the polygraph) it all comes down to the question: Do you do what you know is right all the time, or only when you think you will be caught if you do what is wrong?
Thanks everyone for your input. I almost feel as if this conversation was like having a cartoon devil in my left ear and an angel on my right. Its been 6 months since I posted this, and I am at the point now where I am going to have to make the decision to go ahead with the poly and at least get a shot at the job I want to do. Or choose not to take it and try my luck at getting a another job that doesn't require a clearance.
I've done a lot of thinking over the past 6 months and have decided that I am going to tell the truth. I'm going to admit to what I did, lay it all on the table, and be ready to accept whatever consequences may come my way. Even if that means the loss of a job and or my clearance. If that happens I'll just go back to school...I need my degree anyways. I don't want to continue in this line of work feeling as if I'm hiding something from my employers and the government for the next 20-30 years. I will repost after my security interview and let ya know how the polygraph goes!
Thanks for your opinions!
Kegra,
I'm glad you gave the situation due deliberation and made a decision. I really do hope your honesty is appreciated by those concerned. Remember, that admitting to any crime could make you liable for prosecution. Good luck friend.
Kerga,
I have remained silent during the debate. I believe you have made a wise decision. I don't believe you will regret choosing honesty over desire, good luck to you and please let us know how your polygraph examination goes, It should be interesting.
@ Kegra86
Kegra86
I know a vet going through the same exact situation and wants to come clean also. After you told the truth about the drug use what happened? Thanks.
You should get a consultation (normally free) from a security clearance attorney. As you know drug use is a grounds for administrative discharge (look at Joe Bidens son) and have lied about it during previous investigations could put your TS clearance in jeopardy if revealed during a full scope.
RS,