I heard about the "USB Polygraph" and thought that for the price it was going for that it would be something good to practice with. Does anyone know how well that performs? If its even worth getting to practice with?
There's an even better system that's free; it's called the anal spinchter procedure; just insert a finger up your ass and squeeze as you lie to yourself about something.
If you really want to practice taking the polygraph, just get a metal colander and wire it to a copy machine (or a toaster for that matter). The main lesson you need to take from that is that the polygraph machine does not work. The science behind it is total junk science. It is meant to psych you out and intimidate you into spilling your guts. Don't listen to "quickfix." He is just an hate filled polygraph examiner who is resentful that his witchcraft is being exposed as fraud.
I don't blame you for being nervous. Before I started doing research I had the blind faith in the polygraph that we all have for "scientific" procedures. I trusted it as much as I trust x-rays or EEG machines or electronic scales. But the polygraph only pretends to be scientific. All the little straps and attachments seem so scientific, but there is no way to reliably tell if someone is telling the truth or a lie. An x-ray machine does reliably tell you what bones look like. A scale does tell you what you weigh, but a polygraph machine only tells you how fast your are breathing and if you are excited about something. Those results are then interpreted by the polygraph examiner, who then makes a judgement call. Judgement calls are not scientific, and you can easily throw off the results of the exam by employing countermeasures.
There are certain ways you can act that make you look guilty. If you go into your polygraph exam full of excuses like saying that you have a nervous condition or act all freaked out then you look guilty. You have control over how you act and what you say. You need to go in there with a businesslike attitude and tell the examiner that you are confident that the test will give an accurate result. There are a bunch of pointers for how not to act guilty in, "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector," (The free PDF book available on antipoligraph.org).
Also make sure you prepare your breathing pattern and augmented responses to use. That was how I passed a recent poly. It is all written in the book.
You have no use for a polygraph machine.
chuckles
The polygraph machine works just fine. It records exactly what it is designed to record. The computer scoring systems work pretty good too. Google OSS 3 and tell me if that meets your definition of science.
The polygraph techniques are what you disbelieve and disagree with, not the machine. Examiners, and I know many more of them than you do, are just regular guys and are not frauds or hate filled or inclined to witchcraft.
Good morning Pailryder,
Firstly, please allow me to apologize. I did not mean to imply that all polygraph examiners are hate filled. I have only met one hateful polygraph examiner in person, but I have met many others who are friendly and polite with a professional demeanor, and even the one rude one might only have truly thought I was a big liar and a child molester (this was in a post conviction test). The truth is that i have never molested children, but i was super afraid of the polygraph test, especially after wrongfully failing it once before. I was so nervous I was shaking and so full of dread, thinking that I was screwed. I displayed many of the typical liar behaviors that are identified in the polygraph examiner's handbook, plus I insisted that I don't believe in the process and got a bum deal from my last polygraph exam. Maybe I did have a physiological response to the questions that asked if I had been having sexual thoughts about children or hanging around with them unchaperoned, but I knew that what he was insinuating was a very bad thing and I was offended and angry that someone would try to pin those behaviors on me when I have been so good and tried so hard to comply with every aspect of the sex offender's program. I know you think that OSS 3 looks scientific, but I think you are confusing technologically complicated with scientific.
The fact is I have been declared a liar twice due to polygraph tests, but I have never lied during a polygraph test. The way something gets to be called science is that someone makes a hypothesis and then tests that hypothesis. If after many experiments the hypothesis holds up, then it becomes a respected theory. A theory gets stronger and people are more confident the more experiments that are done testing it, but it only takes one experiment to disprove a theory. If a theory is ever disproved, then it no longer gets to be considered scientifically true. That's how science works.
Even if you don't believe my claims of being falsely branded a liar due to polygraph exams (and the hundreds of other people including the guy that started the antipolygraph.org website), then you can just think about that challenge that they organization put up to the polygraph examiners of the world. They offered to have a scientific experiment to see if polygraph examiners could tell if people were using countermeasures, but no one has taken them up on it. If it were really a scientific test they wouldn't be afraid to test their theory that it detects lies reliably. An untested scientific belief can not be called a theory. It is just an opinion.
You may know many good decent polygraph examiners, but I bet I have more friends who have taken polygraph tests. I have several good friends who are in prison today because they were unable to pass a polygraph exam during a sex offender program. They were in compliance with all aspects of the program and doing what they were told, but they failed the polygraph and got locked up. How do I know they were telling the truth? Because they are my friends and I know, but I can't prove it. It's just an uncomfortable fact of life that you can not prove if someone is lying or telling the truth. You may have a strong feeling, but you can never know.
I agree that the polygraph works as an interrogation tool. If the victim believes that the machine is going to be able to detect his lies, then he is going to want to get everything off his chest. I personally made a long list, admitting to totally insignificant stuff like showering at the YMCA and mowing my yard with my shirt off, trying to rid myself of every tiny possibility that I could have been had sexual motivations. It kind of screwed me over, because I truly was not sexually motivated to do those things, but they included in my record (which could be used in court against me) of my admissions of sexually acting out dozens of times, when my actual crime was a one time thing that I never did before or since. Thanks to my fear of the polygraph I admitted irrelevant stuff that hurts me to this day, but I still failed it twice.
I have no problem with witchcraft and I bet I know more practicing Wiccans than you do. They all know that the key to making magic work is believing in it. If you believe that the polygraph works, then you spill your guts and tell the truth. In that regard the procedure works, but telling the truth is not guarantee of passing the test. If you go into a polygraph exam intending to trust in the ability of the polygraph examiner to tell if you are telling the truth, you are really a chump. I was a chump - it doesn't feel very good.
The answer, both for liars who want to get away with it and for truthful people who want to make sure they don't get a false result from the exam is the same. You read "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector" and learn how to augment your responses to control questions, control your breathing and have the right appearance and attitude. For me personally, when I went to my polygraph after reading the book and preparing, i felt so confident for a change. Finally I did not feel like a powerless victim. The polygraph lost it's mystery to me and I wasn't afraid of it anymore, and I passed with flying colors.
To Kol: Sorry, I didn't recognize you at first. I think your little picture thing changed. If you are still doing research and trying to buy a polygraph machine that means you are still nervous. Relax buddy and focus on preparing for the test by reading the "Lie Behind the Lie Detector." Meditate once a day, learning to count your breaths and choose a happy, soothing thought that you will use during your test (I used petting my dog), and practice having that thought while controlling your breaths. When you get into the test and he asks you a relevant question, you will just continue breathing the pattern and mentally petting your dog and your body will not give a physiological response. Also you augment your responses to the control questions, and that makes them look bigger than the relevant questions. It's not hard if you study up and get prepared.
Stay cool guys,
Chuck
PS By the way Pailryder, Quickfix is admittedly a polygraph examiner and if you read his history you will see that he is very hate filled. He hates the people who don't believe in the polygraph so much that he wants their children to be raped. He is the specific person I was describing when I said hateful, not all polygraph examiners.
Pailryder, I don't think he is referring to OSS 3, but rather that cheapo party unit that's being marketed.
Quote from: pailryder on Mar 28, 2011, 06:54 AMExaminers, and I know many more of them than you do, are just regular guys and are not frauds or hate filled or inclined to witchcraft.
I agree with you that most are not hate-filled. They are just "regular guys" who see admissions as trophies and will deceive in order to to elicit such.
Quote from: quickfix on Mar 27, 2011, 02:01 PMThere's an even better system that's free; it's called the anal spinchter procedure; just insert a finger up your ass and squeeze as you lie to yourself about something.
You are real class act; a paragon among your peers.
stefano
Lying to a lying suspect in order to obtain a confession is accepted practice for all LEA investigators, not just polygraphers, and has been approved by courts at all levels. I think the theory is that a liar is not entitled to be told the truth. I agree there are agencies where confessions are viewed as trophies, but confessions are also important in establishing ground truth for evaluating polygraph accuracy and utility.
I agree with your evaluation of quickfix.
chuck
A thoughtful and very well composed post. Your advice, to be preparded, is correct and useful to all, but be aware that there is a risk of detection in agumenting response. I am glad that you did not need to lie and that your examiner finally called it right.
Good luck
Quote from: pailryder on Mar 29, 2011, 07:32 AMstefano
Lying to a lying suspect in order to obtain a confession is accepted practice for all LEA investigators, not just polygraphers, and has been approved by courts at all levels. I think the theory is that a liar is not entitled to be told the truth. I agree there are agencies where confessions are viewed as trophies, but confessions are also important in establishing ground truth for evaluating polygraph accuracy and utility.
We are on the same page, just different margins. I see there is an ethics issue here; just how unethical does someone wish to become in order to catch the bad guys. That's a personal call. Also, I admire your attitude---it's not easy to keep a cool head when one's profession is under attack. Thanks for your input.
thanks Chuckles; for a convicted sex offender you are so insightful; how proud you must be to have "beaten" your mandatory polygraph exams; now you can keep on molesting chidren; isn't that wonderful; just like you wrote previously, that you "try to be truthful" about your child molesting, and you "try" to comply with not molesting children. Yeah, you pegged me correctly; hateful (hateful of child molesters); hopefully you will be violated back to prison soon so you yourself can be molested in the same manner you have molested children. As I said before, George must be so proud of the advice he gives to convicted sex offenders, then rationalizes it away by claiming his advice is intended for those who want to pass preemployment polygraph exams, not for shitbags like you.
Quote from: quickfix on Mar 29, 2011, 05:54 PMthanks Chuckles; for a convicted sex offender you are so insightful; how proud you must be to have "beaten" your mandatory polygraph exams; now you can keep on molesting chidren; isn't that wonderful; just like you wrote previously, that you "try to be truthful" about your child molesting, and you "try" to comply with not molesting children. Yeah, you pegged me correctly; hateful (hateful of child molesters); hopefully you will be violated back to prison soon so you yourself can be molested in the same manner you have molested children. As I said before, George must be so proud of the advice he gives to convicted sex offenders, then rationalizes it away by claiming his advice is intended for those who want to pass preemployment polygraph exams, not for shitbags like you.
Why don't you have similar hate for people who get drunk and kill kids in car wrecks? I really think you have some unresolved issues. It would be interesting to have a look inside your closet.
stefano
Suspose a murder suspect asks if his prints were found at the crime scene? Are you saying it is unethical for an investigator to bluff and answer yes?
Quote from: pailryder on Mar 30, 2011, 08:04 AMstefano
Suspose a murder suspect asks if his prints were found at the crime scene? Are you saying it is unethical for an investigator to bluff and answer yes?
I like how you change "lie" to "bluff." I think it's unethical to lie and deceive while working in any official capacity. Previously, you used the phrase: "liars don't deserve to be told the truth." In all fairness, it goes both ways. How much of a bad guy do you want to become in order to catch other bad guys?
So during WWII if our ambassador lied to the Nazi's to protect innocent Jews, you hold his actions, lies if you prefer, to be unethical?
Lying is not always bad or wrong, it can be the moral ethical thing to do in some circumstances.
Quote from: pailryder on Mar 30, 2011, 02:12 PM
So during WWII if our ambassador lied to the Nazi's to protect innocent Jews, you hold his actions, lies if you prefer, to be unethical?
Lying is not always bad or wrong, it can be the moral ethical thing to do in some circumstances.
You will never be dubbed the analogy king. However if you need such rationalizations to justify deceiving your clients, go for it.
I do not deceive my clients.
"Why don't you have similar hate for people who get drunk and kill kids in car wrecks? I really think you have some unresolved issues. It would be interesting to have a look inside your closet."
stefano: the analogy isn't even close; the difference is intent; child molesters don't molest by accident; drunk drivers don't intend to kill others; molesters are scumbags, like Chuckles; drunk drivers are just plain stupid. Try looking in your own closet; sounds like you're the one with issues if you can't distinguish between the two.
While it would be great if we could expect professionalism and honesty from people working in an official capacity, that just isn't the case. Investigators and prosecutors and polygraph examiners are all just humans with the same faults and prejudices as the rest of the population. In any profession there are going to be some bad apples mixed in with the ethical people. In AA I learned to accept the things I can't change, and I think I have the wisdom to know that I don't have much control over the attitudes or habits of other people.
The thing that we should all be able to agree on is that the polygraph exam is not a reliable way to tell if someone is lying. I think quickfix is so hateful towards me because she thinks that I went into a polygraph exam and lied about molesting children and got away with it. For her to make the kind of comments she made proves that she knows that the polygraph is unreliable and can be beaten with counter measures. I don't take her hate personally - maybe she is just describing her worst nightmare, the thing she goes to work every day trying to stop. I have never given any personal details about my crime, so she just filled in the gaps with whatever was on her mind.
Bottom line, both the victims of the polygraph exam and the examiners all know that it's unreliable.
The only victims here are the children molested by you. So you didn't reveal the details of your crime? That makes your crime a little more acceptable??? What an imbecile you are.
Quote from: pailryder on Mar 30, 2011, 03:26 PMI do not deceive my clients.
I have yet to see a polygraph exam that was free of deception by the examiner. If you are the exception, then I salute you.
Quote from: quickfix on Mar 30, 2011, 04:34 PM"Why don't you have similar hate for people who get drunk and kill kids in car wrecks? I really think you have some unresolved issues. It would be interesting to have a look inside your closet."
stefano: the analogy isn't even close; the difference is intent; child molesters don't molest by accident; drunk drivers don't intend to kill others; molesters are scumbags, like Chuckles; drunk drivers are just plain stupid. Try looking in your own closet; sounds like you're the one with issues if you can't distinguish between the two.
Sorry I don't don't subscribe to your witch hunt mentality. I choose to see the world from a sober footing. It's all about hate. You need someone to hate. Before it was acceptable to hate blacks, jews, gays etc. But now that's not permissible anymore, but it's still okay to hate sex offenders. I am not on their side, but I don't ally myself with those who think sex offenders have the corner on slime. So, we can overlook drunks who kill children in cars simply because they didn't intend to? That's the rationalization of the year. Your issue is not sex offenders but rather the hatred that is poisoning your heart.
stefano
The Guilty Knowledge Test, Directed Lie Comparison Question Test and Relevant/Irrelevant Test are all techniques that do not rely or depend on examiner deception.
Thank you for the calm and thoughtful discussion.
Quote from: pailryder on Mar 31, 2011, 06:03 AMstefano
The Guilty Knowledge Test, Directed Lie Comparison Question Test and Relevant/Irrelevant Test are all techniques that do not rely or depend on examiner deception.
Thank you for the calm and thoughtful discussion.
I agree that the GKT by itself does not involve direct deception on behalf of the examiner; other than the general deception regarding the polygraph's accuracy. However, if a successive hurdles approach is employed, other formats will come into play.
The directed lie format as proffered by the University of Utah, does simplify the pretest interview. I don't believe the technique is widely used at this point. I have had discussions with Dr. Honts regarding this technique and he tends to believe the underlying concepts are based on mental work. He stands firm that lab experiments reveal higher levels of accuracy, but I have not scrutinized the empirical data.
You should not be using the R/I test technique as its as useless as a coin toss.
stefano
I did not say that I currently use the R/I technique. I simple cite it as one of several techniques that does not depend on examiner deception.
Wow this site is impressive, actually some very intelligent people. Im used to forums overun by sheep.. the general public, mostly complete morons.. anyways
Chuckles your a sick f*ck u deserve to raped mentally in the water ever way hurts you most because i big nig in jail prob doesn't bother you much. Hopefully you cant get the women or men you desire and are so hurt by it you act out w sexual perversions> if you can get the people you desire I hope they tear your heart and your mind apart leaving to know and feel what a piece of shit you are. you destroy innocent childrens lives you fucking mucus
and other guy we all hate drunk drivers just the same as nigs , jews and sex offenders... no im not racist although i love using the words to enrage the weak.. hate is healthy displacement of anger take a psyc class
im a jew nigger 3 time conv drunken driver but atleast I can rent an apartment chuckles u shitbag
Quoteim a jew nigger 3 time conv drunken driver but atleast I can rent an apartment chuckles u shitbag
Quickfix, you may have just been dethroned.
I humbly yield to the new king!!!
pailryder, stefano and chuckles: great conversation. All have opinions and all speak well of their views.
quickfix and yourallsheep: Unreal. You need to converse intellectually, not with the obvious hate you are displaying. I am sure their are bad polygraph examiners out there as there are "the bad" in everything profession. You can not hold all to the actions of "the bad". I believe in the polygraph and have seen it used effectively evry time. The polygraph is a great investigative tool. As far as being deceptive; a person lying about their crime is often cornered by the deceptive interviewer. I know LE who have interviewed a person for a couple of hours and longer and have finally had the suspect confess. It is not a simple, "yes I did it." It is an admission with supportng facts. Often the facts are only known by the suspect or someone tod by the suspect, the victis and the LE. LE doesn't rely on confession alone. There have been many people who confess or admit to a crime only to have LE disprove it and send them on their way. LE deal with the facts but LE is subject to mistakes also. I have seen Polyygraphs were the person showed to be lying and the examiner called the examinee on the lie. The examinee continued to lie and fnally gave up the act and admitted. The examinee then went on to relay the details of the crime. There iis no doubt about the confession. The examiner held true to the test result and ould not relent. I am sure tehre are tests that are not so obvious and this is where a skilled inteviewer is needed. Deception is part of it. It is about solving the crime and getting resolution for the victims.
Everyone has their opinion. That's the way it should.
LE have their hands full trying to keep up with investigating crimes.
Polygraph examiners are an investigative tool who have proven their worth many times over.
Chuckles: Not knowing you, if what you say is true; then, I can not explain it or even try to and I would not want to be in your position. My view to your situation is; if you did it, dont do it again. If you didn't do it, you were wronged somewhere.
The polygraph is only a part of the investigation and not the final word.
Quote from: seryty on Jan 01, 2012, 09:13 PMThe polygraph is only a part of the investigation and not the final word
The polygraph is the final word in the hiring process, which is the reason this web site exists.
Quote from: seryty on Jan 01, 2012, 09:13 PMPolygraph examiners are an investigative tool who have proven their worth many times over.
Translation: the polygraph is used as a rubber hose to trick those under interrogation into confessing.
It is only effective for those who have not yet awakened to the folly.
Dear Quickfix, I believe in lie detectors and I want to buy the usb lie detector to play truth or dare with my girlfriends. Will it be accurate enough even though it is cheaper? How much does it cost to go to a real examiner and have them do it. Will my friends be able to come?
Also this was a very educational conversation for me I am 20 years old and have never seen a girl act so mean towards someone. I am completely on your side you can not become a sex offender randomly, but you are still a woman and must remain professional no matter how jacked up this guy is.
Brant, thanks for the words of support. Someof my opponents on this site incorreclt assume I am hate-filled toward everyone; not the case. The worst of the worst are spies and child molesters/sex offenders. Even in prison, child molesters are despised by other inmates. Notice how "Chuckles" has disappeared fromthis site? No doubt he has offended again and hopefully he is back in prison where he belongs.
To answer your question, I would not spend time or money on these so-called home polygraph machines. Having conducted research on many of them (under federal research grants), I can tell you that they don't collect the physiological data necessary, nor is the data collected on these devices accurate. An examiner with proper training and experience is the way to go. Inviting "friends" along is not appropriate. Privacy is strictly enforced in any polygraph exam, whether conducted by a private, law enforcement, or federal examiner. Onlythe person being tested, the person's attorney, and if required, an interpreter, are allowed to participate. The attorney is also required to leave when the test portion begins, usually observing from an adjacent monitor room or other remote viewing device.
Fees for private testing can vary from examiner to examiner. Expect to pay a minimum of $500-$750 for a simple straight-forward test; more for a more complicated test. Even more if the examiner has to travel, since you must pay for his travel, lodging, and incidental expenses.
Hope this answers your questions.
QuoteI believe in lie detectors
May I ask what led to your belief in lie detectors? What exactly convinced you?
Quote from: quickfix on Feb 19, 2013, 04:01 PM Brant, thanks for the words of support. Someof my opponents on this site incorreclt assume I am hate-filled toward everyone; not the case.The worst of the worst are spies and child molesters/sex offenders.Even in prison, child molesters are despised by other inmates.Notice how "Chuckles" has disappeared fromthis site?No doubt he has offended again and hopefully he is back in prison where he belongs.
How do you prevent this deep seated hatred from introducing examiner bias into your scoring?
Thank you quickfix that was very helpful. I do not think you are hatefilled and I realize it is probably your job to deal with these kind of people.
Dear Arhhangelsk, I believe in the system my dad is a prestigious judge. I asked him if they work and I trust his opinion. I have never personally used one, but I am told they work 80-99% of the time.
Arkhangelsk: I guess you didn't read my post; there is no deep-seated hatred. Therefore, your question is baseless.
Brant, that's great that your dad is a judge, you should be proud. I'm sure he would be interested in seeing the other side; why don't you invite him to this website?
Quickfix, what you wrote about spies and sex offenders doesn't sound very congenial. Usually those that hate sex offenders the most are the ones with the real skeletons in the closet.