I was set to graduate in May of 2009 from a great school with a Bachelor's Degree in Law Enforcement. I have wanted to be a police officer for a long time and growing up I was always doing things with the police and staying away from drugs and crime.
In Nov. 2008 I applied for the United States Border Patrol and passed the written test with a 93%. I was a very good student, had years of Spanish under my belt, and was more physically fit than many of the kids my age. I was READY to work the Border.
As the hiring process went on I passed everything beautifully, like I knew I would, like the oral, medical, physical exams and even the majority of the background investigation. I remember waiting anxiously for any news about my status, seeing that I would be graduating from college in less than 6 months and was ready to have a job lined up.
I got a call one day from a polygraph examiner by the name of Mike Cerot (or Serot) who basically TOLD me that I had to report to take a polygraph on a specific day at a specific time less than a week away. Being ready for a job and having nothing to hide I made the 400+ mile drive to the nearest CBP location to take the test. I didn't research polygraphs because I didn't have anything to hide and wasn't even nervous.
I remember getting to the building and waiting in the waiting room. Mr. Cerot came out to greet me and led me to a window-less conference room in the office suite. There was one door in, a large table spanning the length of the room in the middle and two chairs at the far end of the room, one in the corner.
I was directed to sit in the chair in the corner and told to relax while I watched as Mr. Cerot set up a laptop and attached various cords and whatnots to it. I was actually interested and intrigued as to how the whole process worked. While he was setting it up he began explaining to me that he has performed polygraph examinations for over ten years with the Central Intelligence Agency and is now working with the Customs and Border Protection to polygraph new applicants. I remember him telling me "Your body is going to tell me if you lie. You are going to know it, and you are going to make it known to me. Let me tell you, this never fails. It always works. Always."
I didn't know what to make of that and I actually believed that my body would let him know. (Had I done some research I would've known that he was full of crap and that he was using scare tactics on me).
Once he was done setting up he began talking to me and asking me all sorts of questions asking about personal relationships ("Do you hate your parents?") and weird questions ("Have you ever had sex with any domesticated animals?"), all of which -even though weird- I answered truthfully. This little interview didn't last very long and Mr. Cerot was very reassuring adding comments about his own personal experiences that seemed to match mine.
He told me that he was going to hook me up to the machine so he could get it tuned and explained each of the parts to me as he put them on. I was still fascinated by it. We began a practice test which consisted of him writing the number 4 on a piece of paper and having me say "no" when asked if the number was a 4. I thought it was stupid and pointless at the time, but whatever, this guy knows what he is doing.
When the real test was about to begin he said he would go over the questions to make sure I wasn't surprised by any of them. I can't remember them all now, but they were common questions about lying to loved ones, stealing, using drugs, etc. etc... things I haven't ever experienced or had a problem with.
We did the test. It took a while. I felt completely comfortable and fine.
We took the test again. Same thing. Fine as wine.
After the third time the test ended Mr. Cerot (who had appeared friendly to me throughout the entire experience) became very agitated and began typing and clicking on his laptop. I just continued to sit in my chair, happy to be done with the test and wondering when I could go to the bathroom and have a break (we had been in the room for almost 3 hours). With a loud exhaled breath Mr. Cerot became angry and spun the laptop around showing me a series of graphs with waves running across the screen. He said to me "DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT?"
"No."
"THIS IS QUESTION 3. YOU HAVE BEEN HIDING SOMETHING FROM ME, SHOWN EACH TIME YOU ANSWERED THE QUESTION (pointing to a specific crested section of the charts). DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUESTION 3 IS?"
"No."
"QUESTION 3 IS THE DRUG QUESTION."
When he said those words, my mind went berserk. I had never even SEEN or SMELLED any drugs! How could I fail THIS question???? Out of all of them, the DRUG one?!?!? I was so shocked! I didn't know what to say to him and I imagine that I looked white as a ghost.
I remember him saying "You aren't telling me something. I know it. You know it. Tell me what it is. If you tell me what it is I can make it all go away. I have a magic eraser that can make anything go away, as long as you tell me what it is."
I was scared to death. I sat there trying to think of anything that I had experienced in my lifetime that would even be close to USING DRUGS. :-[ I remember shaking my head constantly and repeating "I haven't ever done anything like that"...
At that time he said "Alright. Im going to give you a break to walk around and use the bathroom, and I am going to make some calls."
I was booted into the hallway outside of the suite. I couldn't breathe, my mind was racing, searching, struggling to find something. Anything. Nothing was coming to mind. I waited in agony for 15 minutes racking my brain until I was invited to come back into the suite.
We went back into the room and sat back down. It felt different that time. His attitude made me feel like he was going to pull out some rolled up torture tools and start pulling out my fingernails... "SO" he asked "have you thought of anything you want to tell me?"
"No. I honestly can't think of anything to tell you sir" I said holding back my tears. I was SO frustrated! :'(
"Well I am afraid that there is nothing I can do for you further if you aren't going to tell me what you are hiding. I know that you are hiding this from me and I don't know why. Like I said, I can make things go away. A guy that I tested yesterday admitted to using drugs 3500 times and guess what... HE gets a job! It's that simple. If you are done talking then I am afraid that we are done here. You can't ignore this. THIS is huge. Like ignoring a 400 pound Gorilla in the room."
I was absolutely devastated inside. Physically, mentally and emotionally drained.
When I told my family and friends that I failed the test because of suspected drug use, they all laughed and thought I was joking with them; knowing that I don't have/never have had anything to do with drugs. Some people suggested that they were just messing with me to see if I would change my attitude or admit something during the test, something I tried to believe.
I got a letter in the mail two days after graduation informing me that I was no longer being considered an applicant for the Border Patrol.
It haunted me. I was petrified of the drug question and polygraphs. I remember asking myself at random times "Have you ever used illegal drugs?" and then responding to myself with a stern "NO."
Applying for police officer positions in the United States that don't require applicants to take a polygraph is tough. The only state that doesn't require polygraphs is Michigan, and they are laying off more police officers than anywhere.
I applied and tested for a PD in Northeastern Wyoming in May of 09. Passed everything gloriously, except for one question. On the polygraph. The question that I had been DREADING hearing since the last time it was asked of me. I failed. The examiner called me a liar and told me that I was full of $hit and that he wasn't buying any of my story. I didn't get that job.
The polygraph has haunted me. I am thankful for this site because I NOW know that I am not alone in my struggle and that many are struggling with me, ESPECIALLY now since seeing the article recently put out about the Border Patrol's failure of 60% of the total 10% of applicants over the past hiring year.
With my career in jeopardy, I don't know where to turn. I want to be a police officer but I have a very large mountain in my way resembling the polygraph. At 23, I am now forced to stick with my security job or entirely change careers.
Good luck everyone. And thanks for letting me vent. :)
Read The Lie Behind The Lie Detector.
Then keep applying to law enforcement positions.
I was also administered the same polygraph by Mr. Cerot! I feel better knowing that I wasn't the only one humiliated and accused of lying by this "professional." I was so close to my dream career. I was told I was being deceptive and that he was going to forward his results to the BP recruiters and they would decide my fate. I told him countless times I had never taken or consumed drugs or smuggled illegal aliens across the border. What a farce!
I feel for both of you- I just went through something similar here for a little local position. I don't even have a blasted traffic ticket, let alone any major offenses, and being called a liar and addict/user is incredibly insulting. It is hard to remain calm when the person is staring at you, inches from your face, after repeatedly calling you a liar. I worked hard throughout college, and even with commuting 4 hours per day (total) and working nearly full time I still earned my undergraduate cum laude. I was hoping for this position because they had offered to pay a good percentage of my graduate studies.
I got the same "machine tells the truth/is infallible" bs too. I wish I had had the cojones to tell the guy to his face that it doesn't and to truly give him my thoughts on the process (and my total lack of belief in it- even before I went in) I know it wouldn't have helped my case, but it certainly would have felt good to say it.
That, and to have fun with the entire line of "Have you had sex with a ______" questions that became so bizarre they were humorous.
Im from Michigan and had my polygraph test Oct 14th 2010 in Detroit. I too was close to getting in with BP i dont remember the guys name but if MR Cerot was tall dark hair with glasses the yea I had him also. And its so weird what you wrote, because you said the exact same thing that happed to me. I myself was almost in tears after basically called a lair about taking drugs. But no need for me to say what went on b/c you said it perfect. I was told with out being told that i failed. but he said i might get a second chance to do it again. let me know if its the same guy. p.s your right it does feel good to know your not alone. sucks they lost so many great applicants b/c of the polygraph.
Same Situation here too! I cant believe how exactly the same my polygraph went to yours,now I feel like it was all a big scam of some sort. I was pretty much done with my process,all I had left was the polygraph and the fitness test 2 and I was in. The thing that pisses me off the most and I brought this up to my polygraph examiner,is how expensive the whole process was for me and all the time that I wasted on this stupid process. I bought a suit (300.00$),all the trips to tucson (about 3, gas,hotel ) all the days I missed from my current job and did not get paid,etc etc. I totalled it to about 1000.00$. For them to just say ok you failed,next! I went in to that room thinking im going to be 100% honest, and their is no way I can fail because im being 100% honest,but it turns out im a liar and my whole life is a lie according to that polygraph examiner. I told my examiner that the agency should start off with the polygraph exam first and if you pass good and if you fail then you avoid all the nonsense. I am really dissapointed with the border patrol agency. Its all a bunch of bullshit!!!!!
These guys with their experience taking a polygraph with CBP sound very bitter. I can not believe that all of them are truthful in retelling their experiences. My experience with the same examiner was very positive and I passed the exam. So what is the problem. Gunrunner sounds like the type of person that would stab another officer in the back based on his last posting hoping that CBP fails in the hiring process of a "bad guy". What a jerk.
I can't believe that I'm not the only person who has had the same problem with the EXACT same guy. That Mike Cerot guy is a POS. He failed me on my Secret Service test a few years back in Cleveland. He did the exact same thing to me. Said I was lying, this and that. Said I was hiding something. I'm a teacher now. So, obviously I've passed several background checks or they wouldn't let me work with kids. They missed out on hiring me. Not the other way around. That's how you have to look at it.
I find it funny that you can just submit a urine test and prove that you are drug free. Seems like proven science might be a little more effective here.
so im applying for a border patrol position ive passed everything the still looking at my background check i believe i admitted to have used drugs in when i was young given that i would probably be asked that on the polygraph test so when i get and answer yes to that question i will let you guys know if it was better ti actually done drugs in the past and admit to it than not have and failed it.... we this said i no longer use drugs it was just a experimental part of my life
wow now im worried about the polygraph part LOL.
:-?
I'm done with my background (I'm done with everything except PT Test 2) and I haven't heard anything about a polygraph. There's nothing in the steps about a polygraph... I'm a little confused.
Ok so I passed everything in the border patrol steps, physical, drug, medical, etc... Only 1 thing was left and that was my background, as part of my background I was required to take a polygraph examination, I kept it a 100% honest, me and my examiner went over so many things I had to come back another day to finally get hooked up to the machine, and in the end He said things not looking good, he told me he don know what I'm hiding, it could be anything, I told him sir I have told u everything u asked of me, I'm not holding nothing back or hiding anything, I was told to step out an think about it, and after about 15mins I was called back in, I told him I didn't think of anything, cuz I already told him everything, and im being a 100% honest, he said he would send my results in, and they could agree or disagree, few weeks later I called internal affairs and they say I was informed that I failed, I thought the examiner was kidding with me when he said that, so now all my dreams of being a U.S. Border Patrol Agent has gone 6feet under, smh :'(, there has to be an alternative to this, I can only imagine how many qualified agents they loss through Polygraph. My thoughts on polygraph is that it's stupid and a fuckin man made machine should not be used to predict ones future or used for wateva other reasons, because they aren't 100% accurate.
How articulate you are. Judging by your command of the English language, you have no business being in a profession that requires intelligence. Go back to school and get an education.
Quote from: quickfix on Dec 07, 2011, 02:45 PMJudging by your command of the English language, you have no business being in a profession that requires intelligence.
I would prefer poor grammar sincerity over articulate venom.
Do you consider your 320 hours (minus time in the do-nut shop) of polygraph training an education?
Quote from: quickfix on Dec 07, 2011, 02:45 PMHow articulate you are. Judging by your command of the English language, you have no business being in a profession that requires intelligence. Go back to school and get an education.
Stay classy, Quickfix.
BPA,
I had EXACTLY the same thing happen to me. I'm still discouraged and angry to this day about my polygraph experience.
I'm curious...did you take this exam in the Seattle office? The reason I ask, is that what you describe was VERY similar to my experience. I'm wondering if all polygraph examiners utilize the same unethical tactics.
Hello,
After reading this thread I've been compelled to respond as I myself am a recent part of this 60%. I will not sit here and say that I had the displeasure of being with the same polygrapher as the original poster mentioned, however let me share my experience with you as well.
I took my polygraph today in Washington DC, with hopes of also becoming a BP agent. I full and well admit that I have made my share of past mistakes; these were listed on my eqip and beaten to a pulp in the initial interview prior to being hooked up to take the polygraph.
Imagine my dismay when I am told after the initial test I have failed on all questions -
1) drugs related crimes - I've never done illegal drugs in my entire life.
2) Serious criminal offenses - I had a underage possession of alcohol charge; this was disclosed in my EQIP and pre-interview.
3)Intention to hide something on the EQIP- I had absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing this.
I was told to just admit whatever I was hiding and he could help me out. My head was filled with ideas of "maybe you got really drunk and decided to smoke a joint, its ok 99.9 % of people have done drugs". I was practically being begged to offer some form of confession, and I admit that after awhile I almost decided to make something up to try and please my examiner so I would not lose this opportunity.
I was trampled on yet again when I was also sent out of the room for roughly 10-15 minutes and then called back in for another set of questions. These "questions" were part of the "character assessment".
After these questions were done with, I was told that I also failed these. I was talked to again asking for a confession; told that I could either confess to 'what was bothering me' or that "I" (as in me) could end the test now by not confessing to something.
After some deliberation and confused thought I thanked the gentleman for his time and the opportunity, and stated there was nothing more I could say. At this time we parted ways and he wished me luck.
I cannot even begin to state how badly this situation has bothered me. You could literally speak with ANYONE I know -work related or personal and I have absolutely no doubt anyone you spoke with would say anything other than 'he's fair, he's honest, he's sometimes an asshole'.
Having one person determine someone's fate who has literally waited three years to become a Agent is absolutely absurd and makes a mockery of the Department of Homeland Security and the Government.
Where the hell are the polygraphs for Congress and the President since they are so ACCURATE by the way???
TruthSinger
I am the largest letter writer to the U.S. Congress that you will come across. I have written many about the polygraph, to both Republicans and Democrats, and have yet to get ONE response. But one letter writer has no impact on Washington. It takes 100's of thousands in a small period of time. I belong to quite a few conservative websites and we send 100's of thousands petitions to Washington each month and most of the time we get results. Too bad that none of these websites are interested in the polygraph. However, that kind of action is what it going to take to have an effect on the polygraph. Poluted-ticians pay attention to the numbers. Without sufficient numbers, they will stick with their personal agenda. That's why we are almost a third world country right now and I still can't get people to write. If Obama is reelected next year we will achieve third world status by the end of 2013. One of biggest mistakes is he's pushing Israel to the curb and supporting the Arabs.
Quote from: YoungGun on Mar 17, 2010, 06:21 AMI was set to graduate in May of 2009 from a great school with a Bachelor's Degree in Law Enforcement. I have wanted to be a police officer for a long time and growing up I was always doing things with the police and staying away from drugs and crime.
In Nov. 2008 I applied for the United States Border Patrol and passed the written test with a 93%. I was a very good student, had years of Spanish under my belt, and was more physically fit than many of the kids my age. I was READY to work the Border.
As the hiring process went on I passed everything beautifully, like I knew I would, like the oral, medical, physical exams and even the majority of the background investigation. I remember waiting anxiously for any news about my status, seeing that I would be graduating from college in less than 6 months and was ready to have a job lined up.
I got a call one day from a polygraph examiner by the name of Mike Cerot (or Serot) who basically TOLD me that I had to report to take a polygraph on a specific day at a specific time less than a week away. Being ready for a job and having nothing to hide I made the 400+ mile drive to the nearest CBP location to take the test. I didn't research polygraphs because I didn't have anything to hide and wasn't even nervous.
I remember getting to the building and waiting in the waiting room. Mr. Cerot came out to greet me and led me to a window-less conference room in the office suite. There was one door in, a large table spanning the length of the room in the middle and two chairs at the far end of the room, one in the corner.
I was directed to sit in the chair in the corner and told to relax while I watched as Mr. Cerot set up a laptop and attached various cords and whatnots to it. I was actually interested and intrigued as to how the whole process worked. While he was setting it up he began explaining to me that he has performed polygraph examinations for over ten years with the Central Intelligence Agency and is now working with the Customs and Border Protection to polygraph new applicants. I remember him telling me "Your body is going to tell me if you lie. You are going to know it, and you are going to make it known to me. Let me tell you, this never fails. It always works. Always."
I didn't know what to make of that and I actually believed that my body would let him know. (Had I done some research I would've known that he was full of crap and that he was using scare tactics on me).
Once he was done setting up he began talking to me and asking me all sorts of questions asking about personal relationships ("Do you hate your parents?") and weird questions ("Have you ever had sex with any domesticated animals?"), all of which -even though weird- I answered truthfully. This little interview didn't last very long and Mr. Cerot was very reassuring adding comments about his own personal experiences that seemed to match mine.
He told me that he was going to hook me up to the machine so he could get it tuned and explained each of the parts to me as he put them on. I was still fascinated by it. We began a practice test which consisted of him writing the number 4 on a piece of paper and having me say "no" when asked if the number was a 4. I thought it was stupid and pointless at the time, but whatever, this guy knows what he is doing.
When the real test was about to begin he said he would go over the questions to make sure I wasn't surprised by any of them. I can't remember them all now, but they were common questions about lying to loved ones, stealing, using drugs, etc. etc... things I haven't ever experienced or had a problem with.
We did the test. It took a while. I felt completely comfortable and fine.
We took the test again. Same thing. Fine as wine.
After the third time the test ended Mr. Cerot (who had appeared friendly to me throughout the entire experience) became very agitated and began typing and clicking on his laptop. I just continued to sit in my chair, happy to be done with the test and wondering when I could go to the bathroom and have a break (we had been in the room for almost 3 hours). With a loud exhaled breath Mr. Cerot became angry and spun the laptop around showing me a series of graphs with waves running across the screen. He said to me "DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT?"
"No."
"THIS IS QUESTION 3. YOU HAVE BEEN HIDING SOMETHING FROM ME, SHOWN EACH TIME YOU ANSWERED THE QUESTION (pointing to a specific crested section of the charts). DO YOU KNOW WHAT QUESTION 3 IS?"
"No."
"QUESTION 3 IS THE DRUG QUESTION."
When he said those words, my mind went berserk. I had never even SEEN or SMELLED any drugs! How could I fail THIS question???? Out of all of them, the DRUG one?!?!? I was so shocked! I didn't know what to say to him and I imagine that I looked white as a ghost.
I remember him saying "You aren't telling me something. I know it. You know it. Tell me what it is. If you tell me what it is I can make it all go away. I have a magic eraser that can make anything go away, as long as you tell me what it is."
I was scared to death. I sat there trying to think of anything that I had experienced in my lifetime that would even be close to USING DRUGS. :-[ I remember shaking my head constantly and repeating "I haven't ever done anything like that"...
At that time he said "Alright. Im going to give you a break to walk around and use the bathroom, and I am going to make some calls."
I was booted into the hallway outside of the suite. I couldn't breathe, my mind was racing, searching, struggling to find something. Anything. Nothing was coming to mind. I waited in agony for 15 minutes racking my brain until I was invited to come back into the suite.
We went back into the room and sat back down. It felt different that time. His attitude made me feel like he was going to pull out some rolled up torture tools and start pulling out my fingernails... "SO" he asked "have you thought of anything you want to tell me?"
"No. I honestly can't think of anything to tell you sir" I said holding back my tears. I was SO frustrated! :'(
"Well I am afraid that there is nothing I can do for you further if you aren't going to tell me what you are hiding. I know that you are hiding this from me and I don't know why. Like I said, I can make things go away. A guy that I tested yesterday admitted to using drugs 3500 times and guess what... HE gets a job! It's that simple. If you are done talking then I am afraid that we are done here. You can't ignore this. THIS is huge. Like ignoring a 400 pound Gorilla in the room."
I was absolutely devastated inside. Physically, mentally and emotionally drained.
When I told my family and friends that I failed the test because of suspected drug use, they all laughed and thought I was joking with them; knowing that I don't have/never have had anything to do with drugs. Some people suggested that they were just messing with me to see if I would change my attitude or admit something during the test, something I tried to believe.
I got a letter in the mail two days after graduation informing me that I was no longer being considered an applicant for the Border Patrol.
It haunted me. I was petrified of the drug question and polygraphs. I remember asking myself at random times "Have you ever used illegal drugs?" and then responding to myself with a stern "NO."
Applying for police officer positions in the United States that don't require applicants to take a polygraph is tough. The only state that doesn't require polygraphs is Michigan, and they are laying off more police officers than anywhere.
I applied and tested for a PD in Northeastern Wyoming in May of 09. Passed everything gloriously, except for one question. On the polygraph. The question that I had been DREADING hearing since the last time it was asked of me. I failed. The examiner called me a liar and told me that I was full of $hit and that he wasn't buying any of my story. I didn't get that job.
The polygraph has haunted me. I am thankful for this site because I NOW know that I am not alone in my struggle and that many are struggling with me, ESPECIALLY now since seeing the article recently put out about the Border Patrol's failure of 60% of the total 10% of applicants over the past hiring year.
With my career in jeopardy, I don't know where to turn. I want to be a police officer but I have a very large mountain in my way resembling the polygraph. At 23, I am now forced to stick with my security job or entirely change careers.
Good luck everyone. And thanks for letting me vent. :)
I love how it kept the quote and deleted ALL my information so I have to write it all again. If I didn't know what you all were going through, I probably would have quit already. That being said, here it goes.
It seems quite a few of you failed the "drug" question. Let me know.... how was the question phrased? If they asked did you ever use drugs? And you said no. Then you probably did lie. Now, don't get upset, let me explain. Did you ever take a Tylenol for a headache? Vitamins for a healthier body? Pepto when you were sick? etc. Guess what... all drugs. If the question was, Did you ever take illegal drugs, that's a bit different. But, did you ever take pain killers for a broken arm, perhaps? If any of my questions above you have answered yes too, and you said no on the polygraph, you lied and your body gave you away. I doubt you did it on purpose, as I wouldn't have thought of all of these things without over 100 hours of polygraph research. Even if you don't think about taking vitamins or Tylenol, your mind remembers and that gives you a fail. If you're thinking, but illegal drugs wouldn't be taking pain killers when prescribed. Again you're right, but its your subconscious talking, and with all the hype recently about people using legal drugs ILLEGALLY, your subconscious likely screwed you, for lack of a better word.
To help reiterate this point further I will give you an example I recently read. During a divorce case a man's ex-wife accused him of touching his daughter's breasts. He took 2 polygraphs and failed both. Distraught and knowing he was innocent, he hired help. The man he hired asked him if he'd ever wiped off his daughter's shirt, when she was a baby, because she'd spilled spaghetti or something else on it. He said, of course he has. How did you wipe off her shirt without touching her breasts? The man took another polygraph where the question was phrased "Did you touch your daughter's breasts for sexual gratification?" He answered no, and passed the polygraph.
These tests are evil and innacurate for reasons like this. A simple subconscious thought of something that was completely innocent, like wiping your daughter's shirt, or taking a Tylenol, and brand you a sex offender or drug user.
I don't know if this helps anyone here, or even fits with what you went through, but if so, I hope, if nothing else, it at least makes you feel a little bit better about failing something, knowing you are innocent. It happens everyday probably 100 times a day. You are not alone.
My deepest sympathies. I understand completely and I failed something similar with (or so it sounds) many of the same questions. Mine pertained to spouse abuse which has never happened in my life and I've today posted here about that poly exam.
I think that some might think about the so called failed questions and what they have 'viewed' or 'experienced' second or third hand in their lives. I, for instance, have felt guilty over my divorce and embarrassed and I believe that "just" those feelings will provide variances due to what is called "the physiology of psychology." This is even deeper than ANS' sympathetic responses but goes into the hand in hand response in small portions of the neurological systems when areas of memory (excitement, shame, pain, disappointment and so many others) are prodded by a question. You are innocent of that which is being asked but (I think in my case at least) it somehow prods an old memory that you only knew about, observed or even heard about (never personally doing or involved) and the system sends a glitch out that is recorded in the physiology of the test. What happened to you is a crying shame and I understand what you meant by holding back the tears. There is no recourse to a machine besides working towards getting them all banned and discounted as viable methods of evaluation. God Bless your efforts and future!
Quote from: Iamanon on Feb 04, 2012, 06:15 AMI love how it kept the quote and deleted ALL my information so I have to write it all again. If I didn't know what you all were going through, I probably would have quit already. That being said, here it goes.
It seems quite a few of you failed the "drug" question. Let me know.... how was the question phrased? If they asked did you ever use drugs? And you said no. Then you probably did lie. Now, don't get upset, let me explain. Did you ever take a Tylenol for a headache? Vitamins for a healthier body? Pepto when you were sick? etc. Guess what... all drugs. If the question was, Did you ever take illegal drugs, that's a bit different. But, did you ever take pain killers for a broken arm, perhaps? If any of my questions above you have answered yes too, and you said no on the polygraph, you lied and your body gave you away. I doubt you did it on purpose, as I wouldn't have thought of all of these things without over 100 hours of polygraph research. Even if you don't think about taking vitamins or Tylenol, your mind remembers and that gives you a fail. If you're thinking, but illegal drugs wouldn't be taking pain killers when prescribed. Again you're right, but its your subconscious talking, and with all the hype recently about people using legal drugs ILLEGALLY, your subconscious likely screwed you, for lack of a better word.
To help reiterate this point further I will give you an example I recently read. During a divorce case a man's ex-wife accused him of touching his daughter's breasts. He took 2 polygraphs and failed both. Distraught and knowing he was innocent, he hired help. The man he hired asked him if he'd ever wiped off his daughter's shirt, when she was a baby, because she'd spilled spaghetti or something else on it. He said, of course he has. How did you wipe off her shirt without touching her breasts? The man took another polygraph where the question was phrased "Did you touch your daughter's breasts for sexual gratification?" He answered no, and passed the polygraph.
These tests are evil and innacurate for reasons like this. A simple subconscious thought of something that was completely innocent, like wiping your daughter's shirt, or taking a Tylenol, and brand you a sex offender or drug user.
I don't know if this helps anyone here, or even fits with what you went through, but if so, I hope, if nothing else, it at least makes you feel a little bit better about failing something, knowing you are innocent. It happens everyday probably 100 times a day. You are not alone.
First of all this is actually scaring me. I have nothing to hide I am not a person that does illegal stuff, but that test scares the hell out of me. However the reason I quoted him is because it all makes sense. Its the way they say the question. Since I am going to apply for CBP well I got nothing to hide. However I am the type of guy that gets nervous where my hearts beats fast and I am scared I wont pass if I do that test.
I have heard that it goes by heart beats right? Its going to really mess me up and I have a clean record never done anything illegal nor would do it. This is totally bumping me out hearing the OP of the incident :( I am scared I will end up taking such test and fail.
Liko,
I believe it is proper to approach this part of your pre-employment check with some apprehension. In fact if you were apprehensive enough so that "all" questions gave more or less the same 'physiological' feedback you would probably pass... that is the whole (to my understanding) concept of 'counter measures'... honest people 'show' little variations in the readings and that leaves the 'discerning' of a 'deception' completely up to the examiner (I'm sure that if that is not correct, others will flesh it out) which you don't really want. There are plenty of YouTube evidences of completely innocent people being called untruthful in (more or less) poly stings to demonstrate that the mind of the examiner has a lot to do with the results... not in intent but perhaps just a subjective leaning. If you can harness that anxiety "across the boards" you might have a better chance than 'just' being calm... I think.
Quote from: RoamingBack on Mar 08, 2012, 11:40 AMLiko,
I believe it is proper to approach this part of your pre-employment check with some apprehension. In fact if you were apprehensive enough so that "all" questions gave more or less the same 'physiological' feedback you would probably pass... that is the whole (to my understanding) concept of 'counter measures'... honest people 'show' little variations in the readings and that leaves the 'discerning' of a 'deception' completely up to the examiner (I'm sure that if that is not correct, others will flesh it out) which you don't really want. There are plenty of YouTube evidences of completely innocent people being called untruthful in (more or less) poly stings to demonstrate that the mind of the examiner has a lot to do with the results... not in intent but perhaps just a subjective leaning. If you can harness that anxiety "across the boards" you might have a better chance than 'just' being calm... I think.
Its hard to say though as you heard from the OP and others that messaged they all failed. It still gets me afraid and I am sured a lot have failed when they were probably excellent candidates. I agree with you the machine probably gets your normal level, but either way personally I get nervous and I know my heart starts beating harder. I am just a bit discourage for some people being rejected. I hope I get a chance to get hired since there isnt much for me to do.
Of course this (the OP date) is rather old...
First, to Iamanon... regarding the tylenol and so forth... the Poly is not (and anyone can correct me) a 'dictionary of medical drugs' and consequently unless you are 'knowingly' not telling the truth it should not pick up anything. Doctors may be cognizant of 'drug' definitions but the average person is not. I have taken pain killers that are most definitely 'drugs' (and can be decomposed down to street drugs) and passed all drug questions with flying colors. The applicant (again, I am open to correction) must 'know' that what they are saying is a lie... or have an inkling at least. I have changed all my kids and grandkids diapers and anyone who has done that knows you have to clean up and that means "touch" the child... yet I've never failed any questions pertaining to pedophilia and so forth. I was "deceptive" about something that I "know" from past experience was a deeply emotional and disturbing part of my life... it was destructive to 'me' in finances, in job, in health and so forth and so questions pertaining to that, while I was not at all dishonest, would trigger a physiological "slam" and that is the only reason I can comprehend a 'failure' and a 'lost job.'
I don't think examiners, or at least the majority, are out to hurt applicants but perhaps there is a 'batten down the hatches' syndrome where some feel under attack professionally (at least the underlying science of their profession) and consequently might be a bit less than even professionally affable. But who is to say...
To Liko - as all posts on this site indicate, read the 'The Lie' and learn from it... there is not one guarantee that simply "being honest" will get you a pass. Good luck.
Quote from: RoamingBack on Mar 09, 2012, 01:11 PMOf course this (the OP date) is rather old...
First, to Iamanon... regarding the tylenol and so forth... the Poly is not (and anyone can correct me) a 'dictionary of medical drugs' and consequently unless you are 'knowingly' not telling the truth it should not pick up anything. Doctors may be cognizant of 'drug' definitions but the average person is not. I have taken pain killers that are most definitely 'drugs' (and can be decomposed down to street drugs) and passed all drug questions with flying colors. The applicant (again, I am open to correction) must 'know' that what they are saying is a lie... or have an inkling at least. I have changed all my kids and grandkids diapers and anyone who has done that knows you have to clean up and that means "touch" the child... yet I've never failed any questions pertaining to pedophilia and so forth. I was "deceptive" about something that I "know" from past experience was a deeply emotional and disturbing part of my life... it was destructive to 'me' in finances, in job, in health and so forth and so questions pertaining to that, while I was not at all dishonest, would trigger a physiological "slam" and that is the only reason I can comprehend a 'failure' and a 'lost job.'
I don't think examiners, or at least the majority, are out to hurt applicants but perhaps there is a 'batten down the hatches' syndrome where some feel under attack professionally (at least the underlying science of their profession) and consequently might be a bit less than even professionally affable. But who is to say...
To Liko - as all posts on this site indicate, read the 'The Lie' and learn from it... there is not one guarantee that simply "being honest" will get you a pass. Good luck.
I agree though as one of the posters I quoted said it really brings a point. If I was to be asked the question "have you ever done drugs" I would truly of said no, however in reality I believe everyone in there life has taken drugs (from pain killers as mentioned to any other antibotic). Now it gets different when asked have you ever done cocaine etc... I am glad I saw this thread because if I was asked the question about drugs I would know what to say. I still worry to be honest I have nothing to hide I have a clean record and I am pretty much want a good government job to do my job, I am just afraid of getting rejected.
So is there any recourse once someone fails the polygraph? My son failed also, and is devastated. Is there any way to appeal? :'(
No, there is no meaningful recourse for those who fail the polygraph. One can appeal by sending a certified letter to U.S. Customs and Border Protection contesting the results, but the chances of being hired after a failed polygraph are essentially zero. Nonetheless, it is worthwhile to contest a false accusation of deception in writing, if only to document the fact that one does not accept the accusation.
Federal agencies share polygraph records, so your son's polygraph with CBP may become an issue if he ever applies for employment with another federal agency.
Quote from: 58465A320 on Oct 02, 2013, 07:35 PMSo is there any recourse once someone fails the polygraph? My son failed also, and is devastated. Is there any way to appeal? :'(
I am constantly amazed at the way the American people have devolved into sheep being led to the slaughter. When they are abused by the heavy handed government thugs from the Orwellian Ministry of Truth - aka polygraph operators - they whine about it and wonder if there is any way to "appeal". To Hell with an "appeal"! The government works for you! If you will remind them of that by demanding that your representatives stop this bullshit or you will kick them out of office, then something will be done to end the abuse that has "devastated" your son. But until you fight back, they will continue to kick you in the balls and laugh when you groan in pain and wonder if there is "any recourse"!
Doug,
You are correct. I spend at least 8 hours a day fighting Washington. So much so that my emails have been blocked. Not by just Democrats either. One of my own Senators, John Cornyn, the RNSC and the RNC blocked me. People like Cruz and Paul have NOT blocked me.
Years ago, by hard copy letters, I tried to get someone in Congress (both houses) to introduce a bill that required members to pass a polygraph in order to inter Congress and for the incumbents to remain there. I didn't get ONE response to the letters. I can understand that because they only pay attention to large numbers. I could not get enough people writing. There's the problem. The only way I get my messages across now are through petitions and they do read some of them evidenced by recent replies even though the responses were pure political rhetoric and lies.
I just passed my polygraph last monday 06/09/14. I thought it was pretty easy. Yes at first i was a little nervous because i didnt know what to expect. After a few question i got my confidence and was more relax. To pass a polygraph just be honest and relax when your answering the questions. Do not worry about what the examiner says that you are not passing. Just say the truth and try the best to be relaxed. Good luck to you all. I am just waiting for my PFT2 and drug test which should be 30-60 days before EOD.
QuoteI just passed my polygraph last monday 06/09/14. I thought it was pretty easy. Yes at first i was a little nervous because i didnt know what to expect. After a few question i got my confidence and was more relax. To pass a polygraph just be honest and relax when your answering the questions. Do not worry about what the examiner says that you are not passing. Just say the truth and try the best to be relaxed. Good luck to you all. I am just waiting for my PFT2 and drug test which should be 30-60 days before EOD.
Ok, so what's your rap sheet consist of? Be honest now. No one here can be wearing a halo. The thing that seems to be going on with the hiring process is....if you have no experience in life what so ever and have lived life, basically under a rock, then that makes you a potential candidate/? I would think that those who are well seasoned in life's ups and downs, having experiences with the good and bad and learning from them and being able to differentiate good ethics from bad, would be more desirable by departments. When I failed and I responded back to this "IA" investigator, I asked if they were looking for robots? I asked who is to say that anyone applicant that "supposedly" has never been tainted by mistakes, will not decide later, after being hired and well established in the job, that he or she will not decide to push the envelope to see what they can get a way with.
Quoteso im applying for a border patrol position ive passed everything the still looking at my background check i believe i admitted to have used drugs in when i was young given that i would probably be asked that on the polygraph test so when i get and answer yes to that question i will let you guys know if it was better ti actually done drugs in the past and admit to it than not have and failed it.... we this said i no longer use drugs it was just a experimental part of my life
So , did you get the job..? How was your experience with the polygraph test ?
Quote from: samson on Mar 26, 2015, 01:22 PMTo pass a polygraph just be honest and relax
I told a polygraph examiner that I was trying to relax and he stated in his report that I admitted to using countermeasures. What a joke this polygraph is. A joke that costs innocent people their careers.
Wandersmann...were you asked to fill out a written statement and sign it? Perhaps the polygrapher, under pressure to fail 60% of the applicants, exaggerated your minor confession (trying to relax) into a significant admission. You must not sign if you do not agree. You are under no obligation to appease the polygrapher.
Evan S
Quote from: 7063747B66150 on Jul 07, 2015, 03:31 PMWandersmann...were you asked to fill out a written statement and sign it? Perhaps the polygrapher, under pressure to fail 60% of the applicants, exaggerated your minor confession (trying to relax) into a significant admission. You must not sign if you do not agree. You are under no obligation to appease the polygrapher.
Good point ! No, I never signed, wrote, or dictated anything after the test. I was a government contractor. I strenuously maintained my innocence and was told if I didn't confess, I would be terminated. I never did confess and was eventually terminated 5 months later after I accomplished my tasks. They let me finish but then said I could never come back on another contract. If I was a threat to security, weren't they culpable to allow me to stay ? Their adjudication is capricious. They can do whatever they want. As I was walked out of the office, I continued to protest my innocence and the polygraph examiner told me not to worry, no adverse action would be taken against me. He said something to the effect of, "don't worry, you don't need to pass the polygraph to stay on your contract". He lied. I find it ironic that these "truth finders" are the biggest God damned liars that ever walked the face of the earth.
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 07, 2015, 07:50 PMI find it ironic that these "truth finders" are the biggest God damned liars that ever walked the face of the earth.
To a large extent, I agree. That is precisely why a key plank in my platform for president-elect of the American Polygraph Association is a bill of rights for potential examinees that would duly inform them of the risks, realities and limitations of the "test" well in advance of their scheduled date with the liebox and its operator.
I'd like to know why the hell why the waiting period to retake the CBP test is so long. >:(
It's very simple
The group that PAYS for the polygraph
gets the results that they want
especially if the result that the payer wants
is a FAILED examination
It's that simple
These exams are purely subjective !!!
The " science " is in the lie pushed by the exam giver !!!
If I failed and reapplied 3 years later what are the odds of me getting hired? If I pass the poly would my last failed exam hurt my chances?
You got educated and stayed good for the system, cool guy. But you lack the common sense to figure out that every single one of you has taken some type of drug in your life, because the biggest drug pusher on the planet is the Pharmaceutical Cartel... and they start you out real young injecting that needle full of vaccines.
Well the best thing to do is tell the Agent you did drugs and he will see you are lying and he cant fail you than:) ;D ;D
Quote from: quickfix on Dec 07, 2011, 02:45 PMHow articulate you are. Judging by your command of the English language, you have no business being in a profession that requires intelligence. Go back to school and get an education.
You seem to have done all right for yourself, Quickfix, and yet you don't appear to be capable of accomplishing very much except to threaten and disparage those who have the temerity to question the accuracy of your brilliant analyses. :P
QuoteIf I failed and reapplied 3 years later what are the odds of me getting hired? If I pass the poly would my last failed exam hurt my chances?
For CBP, I really don't know. For any federal intelligence agency, I'd say to forget about re-applying until you turn 120. lol ;D
Quote from: Wandersmann on Jul 07, 2015, 01:45 PMQuote from: samson on Mar 26, 2015, 01:22 PMTo pass a polygraph just be honest and relax
I told a polygraph examiner that I was trying to relax and he stated in his report that I admitted to using countermeasures. What a joke this polygraph is. A joke that costs innocent people their careers.
Relaxation as a countermeasure? LOL. ;D
BTW, I'm a victim of exactly the same bad joke as you, Wandersmann!
Quote from: honestabe on Jul 08, 2011, 12:51 PMI find it funny that you can just submit a urine test and prove that you are drug free. Seems like proven science might be a little more effective here.
I have often believed that a "loyalty oath" could serve the same purpose as the polygraph and/or BI.
If an employee then engages in espionage (for whatever reason), s/he could be prosecuted for perjury as well as for secrecy/national security violations. ;)
Quote from: xenonman on Feb 25, 2017, 05:44 PMI have often believed that a "loyalty oath" could serve the same purpose as the polygraph and/or BI.
If an employee then engages in espionage (for whatever reason), s/he could be prosecuted for perjury as well as for secrecy/national security violations.
I recently watched on YouTube the 1985 testimony of traitor Christopher Boyce pertaining to his service to the Soviet Union. His first portion of testimony dealt with the fact that he never should have been hired. He highlighted his background investigation that was a superficial joke. He was a counter-culture druggie and the background investigation only included interviews of his retired FBI Agent father's friends. Therein lies the problem. It all comes down to the BI. I think there is more nepotism, favoritism, PC, and "old boy", now sometimes "old girl" networking, than ever before. People are getting selected for positions for all of the wrong reasons and no one in authority has the guts to address this issue head on. The Government slugs in personnel are more interested in making sure their paperwork looks good than in really addressing quality in our workforce.
The next part of Boyce's testimony was enraging. This traitor POS starting lecturing Senators Cohen (former Clinton Secretary of Defense), Gore (former VP), Nunn (Rep-GA) and other committee members on how he would have never applied for the job if he was given a polygraph exam. He lectured these stooges on why we need to polygraph everybody. It appears that these lackluster politicians chose to follow the advice of a traitor rather than really digging into a careful analysis of the problem by listening to what he was saying. I wonder how much this singular testimony by a despicable traitor played into our current polygraph policy? :o
Quote from: Wandersmann on Feb 26, 2017, 03:58 PMhe would have never applied for the job if he was given a polygraph exam. He lectured these stooges on why we need to polygraph everybody.
Yes, I'm familiar with the Chris Boyce/Dalton Lee scandal. Chris, the "idealist", had an FBI father and his accomplice Dalton Lee was a useless, but well-connected, cokehead. To help save his rear end, the opportunistic Boyce told the Congressional investigators whatever he thought they would want to hear.
This is remarkably similar to the conduct of the notorious sexual predator/mass murderer, Ted Bundy. In 1989, hoping to save himself from execution, Bundy began to make statements attributing his behavior to the availability of pornography. Fortunately, his cynical, opportunistic behavior failed to save his life.
::) >:(
QUESTION:
I am schedule to have my Medical Exam on 04/17/17 for Customs and Border Protection. I was wondering if when i go do the medical exam is just medical. Or will they have a Physical Part(fitness) in the Medical Exam.
QuoteQUESTION:
I am schedule to have my Medical Exam on 04/17/17 for Customs and Border Protection. I was wondering if when i go do the medical exam is just medical. Or will they have a Physical Part(fitness) in the Medical Exam.
A physical exam is usually part of the application process.
I don't know what, if any, psychometric test instruments are used by CBP. 8-)
Quote from: Wandersmann on Feb 26, 2017, 03:58 PMThe Government slugs in personnel are more interested in making sure their paperwork looks good than in really addressing quality in our workforce.
It is in that precisely kind of environment that "quickfixes" and their colleagues fluorish. ;D
QuoteQUESTION:
I am schedule to have my Medical Exam on 04/17/17 for Customs and Border Protection. I was wondering if when i go do the medical exam is just medical. Or will they have a Physical Part(fitness) in the Medical Exam.
QuoteQUESTION:
I am schedule to have my Medical Exam on 04/17/17 for Customs and Border Protection. I was wondering if when i go do the medical exam is just medical. Or will they have a Physical Part(fitness) in the Medical Exam.
Crystal,
I just took my medical last week for CBP officer, all i had was a medical with hearing and vision test, no PFT-1
Some locations do the medical and PFT 1 on the same day, not here in Detroit. Just received an email to schedule my PFT 1 from CHS yesterday.
QuoteQUESTION:
I am schedule to have my Medical Exam on 04/17/17 for Customs and Border Protection. I was wondering if when i go do the medical exam is just medical. Or will they have a Physical Part(fitness) in the Medical Exam.
@ noone
Hello, I was wondering if you passed your BP polygraph test. I hope so, thanks.