So a control question is a question that has nothing to do with my background pack that I filled out?...
And a relevant question is one that does?...
Could someone shed some light on this please?....
There is no such simplistic way to differentiate between relevant and "control" questions. Questions pertaining to both are often included in pre-polygraph questionnaires.
The relevant questions on a pre-employment polygraph usually concern undetected major crimes, the completeness and accuracy of one's application, and use or sale of illegal drugs. The control questions generally concern behavior that employers secretly assume everyone -- even people they would like to hire -- has done (for example, lying to get out of trouble or petty theft from an employer). See Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf) for a fuller explanation of the difference between relevant and control questions, along with examples.
Thank you for your reply I just have a quick question on how to answer this one!!...
on my background packet I noted a one time accidental theft where I left a pen in my pocket and did not notice until I was home.
I know I will more than likely get asked Have you ever stolen anything?..
This more than likely being a controlled...
I want to answer yes
But I know he wants a negative answer from me in which I will employ counter measures before I answer with the response he wants.
So basically I am asking everyone should I say no to this question?..
QuoteBut I know he wants a negative answer from me in which I will employ counter measures before I answer with the response he wants.
They don't give a shit about taking some stupid "skilcraft" pen home from work. Unless you get some real dickhead of an examiner. Everybody has done that. When I retired, I had several on my dresser. Please don't tell the FBI!
So answer NO on such a control question, if it comes up. That is the time to employ CM. Let them press you for awhile. Make them work! Then come clean, and spill the beans about that "pen hist"!
TC
Quote from: PhilGainey on Oct 27, 2008, 02:11 PMThat is the time to employ CM.
Before you decide to try countermeasure you should realize that attempting countermeasures has its own hazards.
There is no credible scientific evidence that the countermeasures presented in Dr, Maschke's book are either easy to learn or an effective way to "beat" the polygraph. There is however, evidence that innocent examinees that use countermeasures can in fact increase their chances of failing the test.
Sancho Panza
QuoteThere is however, evidence that innocent examinees that use countermeasures can in fact increase their chances of failing the test.
What evidence?
OTOH, the ATF apparently agrees that the polygraph can be beaten, and has trained it's agents accordingly. That's pretty revealing.
Reading TLBTLD is probably required reading for them!
Incidentally, you don't have to employ CMs to beat a polygraph interrogation, as many high profile spies/murderers have passed without using CM. Aldrich Ames for one.
TC
Quote from: PhilGainey on Oct 27, 2008, 05:02 PMWhat evidence?
There is evidence that some countermeasures used by innocent examinees can in fact increase their chances of appearing deceptive (Dawson, 1980; Honts, Amato, and Gordon, 2001).
Sancho Panza
QuoteThere is evidence that some countermeasures used by innocent examinees can in fact increase their chances of appearing deceptive (Dawson, 1980; Honts, Amato, and Gordon, 2001).
You said "countermeasures" in your original post, not "some countermeasures".
What countermeasures do you suppose those ATF agents used to beat the polygraph the Moguls made them take? At gunpoint? Of course, they are not like your typical young, naive, gullible, scared job applicant.
They may not have employed any CMs. Just knowing that the polygraph can not really detect deception, and knowing what the examiner is trying to do (extract a confession, reveal information...etc.) is probably enough to pass. That and a little acting. People can survive an interrogation without revealing anything. And the polygraph is just a fancy interrogation.
TC
Excuse me the complete quote should be
QuoteSome examinees who have not committed crimes, security breaches, or related offenses, or who have little to hide, might nevertheless engage in countermeasures with the intent to minimize their chances of false positive test results (Maschke and Scalabrini, no date). This strategy is not risk-free for innocent examinees. There is evidence that some countermeasures used by innocent examinees can in fact increase their chances of appearing deceptive (Dawson, 1980; Honts, Amato, and Gordon, 2001). Also, several agencies that use the polygraph in screening job applicants or current employees have indicated that examinees who are judged to be using countermeasures may, on these grounds alone, be subject to the same personnel actions that would result from a test that indicated deception The Polygraph and Lie Detection (2003) National Academy of Sciences
Board on Behavioral, Cognitive, and Sensory Sciences and Education (BCSSE)
Committee on National Statistics (CNSTAT) PG 140
QuoteAuthors such as Maschke and Williams suggest that effective countermeasure strategies can be easily learned and that a small amount of practice is enough to give examinees an excellent chance of "beating" the polygraph. Because the effective application of mental or physical countermeasures on the part of examinees would require skill in distinguishing between relevant and comparison questions, skill in regulating physiological response, and skill in concealing countermeasures from trained examiners, claims that it is easy to train examinees to "beat" both the polygraph and trained examiners require scientific supporting evidence to be credible. However, we are not aware of any such research. The Polygraph and Lie Detection (2003) National Academy of Sciences. Board on Behavioral, Cognitive, and Sensory Sciences and Education (BCSSE) Committee on National Statistics (CNSTAT) PG 147
Sancho Panza
QuoteBecause the effective application of mental or physical countermeasures on the part of examinees would require skill in distinguishing between relevant and comparison questions, skill in regulating physiological response, and skill in concealing countermeasures from trained examiners.......
Sounds reasonable to me. If you are going to employ CMs, don't rush into it. You need to: 1) Know which questions to employ them with (control not relevant), 2) Be able to distinguish between the two, 3) Practice altering your F3 response (whether using physical or mental triggers).
Quote....claims that it is easy to train examinees to "beat" both the polygraph and trained examiners require scientific supporting evidence to be credible. However, we are not aware of any such research. The Polygraph and Lie Detection (2003) National Academy of Sciences. Board on Behavioral, Cognitive, and Sensory Sciences and Education (BCSSE) Committee on National Statistics (CNSTAT) PG 147
There is neither evidence that CMs work or that polygraphers can detect them.
So what is a potential false positive to do? Tell the truth, and you can fail and be falsely called a liar.
Best advice I've seen on what to do is in the following link:
http://www.wikihow.com/Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)
You can probably do everything suggested on that link, short of using CMs, and greating increase your chances of passing. It's all about knowing what the polygraph REALLY IS, and that your polygraph interrogator is probably going to LIE to you about what it really is. Do not go into the examination room like some naive, gullible victim who only knows what he/she has seen of the polygraph from the popular culture (TV shows, movies...etc.). I for one, and many other regulars here (including GM probably) fell into that catagory!
TC
Quote from: SanchoPanza on Oct 27, 2008, 07:25 PMExcuse me the complete quote should be
QuoteSome examinees who have not committed crimes, security breaches, or related offenses, or who have little to hide, might nevertheless engage in countermeasures with the intent to minimize their chances of false positive test results (Maschke and Scalabrini, no date). This strategy is not risk-free for innocent examinees. There is evidence that some countermeasures used by innocent examinees can in fact increase their chances of appearing deceptive (Dawson, 1980; Honts, Amato, and Gordon, 2001). Also, several agencies that use the polygraph in screening job applicants or current employees have indicated that examinees who are judged to be using countermeasures may, on these grounds alone, be subject to the same personnel actions that would result from a test that indicated deception The Polygraph and Lie Detection (2003) National Academy of Sciences
Board on Behavioral, Cognitive, and Sensory Sciences and Education (BCSSE)
Committee on National Statistics (CNSTAT) PG 140
It is dishonest to cite the NAS report to support the notion that the kinds of countermeasures outlined in
The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf) increase the risk of a truthful person being wrongly found deceptive. As discussed previously (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=3696.msg25991#msg25991) on this board, the foregoing passage refers to a study by Honts and Amato of the use of
spontaneous (that is, untrained) countermeasures. See, Honts, C.R., S.L. Amato, and A.K. Gordon, "Effects of spontaneous countermeasures used against the comparison question test."
Polygraph Vol. 30 (2001), No. 1, pp. 1-9.
In this study, the "countermeasures" were things that subjects
ignorant of polygraph procedure did
on their own in the belief that it might help them pass the polygraph. Such countermeasures are not comparable to those suggested in
The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.With regard to the 1980 study by Michael E. Dawson ("Physiological Detection of Deception: Measurement of Responses to Questions and Answers During Countermeasure Maneuvers,"
Psychophysiology 17 (1), 8–17), as explained in the article abstract: "All subjects were trained in the Stanislavsky method of acting and were instructed to use this method to appear innocent on the polygraph test." Again, this is nothing at all like the countermeasures suggested in
The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.Simply put, there is no evidence to support the counterintuitive notion that countermeasure use as a rule increases the risk of a false positive outcome.
QuoteAuthors such as Maschke and Williams suggest that effective countermeasure strategies can be easily learned and that a small amount of practice is enough to give examinees an excellent chance of "beating" the polygraph. Because the effective application of mental or physical countermeasures on the part of examinees would require skill in distinguishing between relevant and comparison questions, skill in regulating physiological response, and skill in concealing countermeasures from trained examiners, claims that it is easy to train examinees to "beat" both the polygraph and trained examiners require scientific supporting evidence to be credible. However, we are not aware of any such research. The Polygraph and Lie Detection (2003) National Academy of Sciences. Board on Behavioral, Cognitive, and Sensory Sciences and Education (BCSSE) Committee on National Statistics (CNSTAT) PG 147
While research into the
ease with which countermeasures may be learned is scarce, the existing peer-reviewed research (by Charles Honts and others, see citations and article abstracts in the bibliography of
The Lie Behind the Lie Detector) shows that half of programmed guilty subjects passed the polygraph after receiving
no more than 30 minutes of training. Those facing polygraphic interrogation in the real world typically have considerably more time and much greater motivation to learn countermeasures.
QuoteWith regard to the 1980 study by Michael E. Dawson ("Physiological Detection of Deception: Measurement of Responses to Questions and Answers During Countermeasure Maneuvers," Psychophysiology 17 (1), 8–17), as explained in the article abstract: "All subjects were trained in the Stanislavsky method of acting and were instructed to use this method to appear innocent on the polygraph test." Again, this is nothing at all like the countermeasures suggested in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
So much for your "evidence" Sancho. Are you trying to fudge the facts to throw Conquistador off?
Shame on you! You should be working at a used car lot selling lemons to old ladies!
TC
And let us not forget that Sancho Panza recently lied (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=4083.msg31231#msg31231) about the existence of "published studies as late as 2007 that countermeasures are detectable and that honest people who employ them actually lessen their chances of passing a test." No such studies have been published.
Its interesting that the only parts of the NAS study you find credible and useful are the parts with which you agree.
Sancho Panza
The NAS report clearly does not support the position that sophisticated countermeasures (such as those outlined in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector) increase the likelihood of a truthful person being wrongly deemed deceptive. And there is no evidence that the polygraph community has any ability to detect such countermeasures.
Well I thank all of you for the clarification and for those of you who tried to throw me off I just want to say I am pro countermeasures because I have novice knowledge about the polygraph and with just using common sense if counter measures did not work then why would they need to use pressure sensitive pads to try to detect such measures?...
Another Question I have is when they ask you to do a math problem in your head does that raise your physical responses?..or does it keep them neutral?..because a family friend of mine said she did mental math during the whole process of the polygraph and passed?...
The last Question I have is should I use counter measures on irrelevant questions? or just the Control?....I apologize if that has been asked a million times I just want to make sure...
I again thank you for your time responding...
QuoteThe last Question I have is should I use counter measures on irrelevant questions? or just the Control?....I apologize if that has been asked a million times I just want to make sure...
You employ CM on the CONTROL questions only! If and only if there are control questions. They compare your reaction to the control questions and relevant questions. If you react more to the control questions you pass.
DO NOT USE CMs ON IRRELEVANT QUESTIONS! That is, questions like ("Is your name...?" "Were you born in ...?"...etc.
Note: With some test formats, you don't need to use CMs. For example, in 2000 I took the polygraph at the NSA. They used a format in which there were NO CONTROL QUESTIONS. There were only relevant questions (4 counter intelligence questions), and then some filler questions ("Is your name...?", "Were you born in....?"). In that format, if you react (above a certain threshold) more on one RQ, versus the other RQs, you fail.
TC
Quote from: PhilGainey on Oct 28, 2008, 09:20 PMYou employ CM on the CONTROL questions only!If and only if there are controlquestions.They compare your reaction to the control questions and relevant questions.If you react more to the control questions you pass.
Thank you for your reply I still have one another lingering question though about doing mental math as a counter measure.
Does it raise your physical responses or shifts your physical respones to a some what neutral state?..
QuoteThank you for your reply I still have one another lingering question though about doing mental math as a counter measure.
Does it raise your physical responses or shifts your physical respones to a some what neutral state?..
You do difficult math in your head (like counting backwards by 3 from 2317 as fast as you can). It raises your response, unless you're a math geek, in which case it gives you a hard-on!
TC
lol..alrightee I have another one that popped into my head and I again thank you for you knowledge this matter....
But as I recall I asked you about the using the counter measure if they asked me have I ever stolen anything?...even though on my background packet I filled out that I have mistakenly took a pen from work in the past...
You agreed that I should use counter measure on it..
When I fess up to the fact that I have....you said if I got a dickhead examiner it would be a problem..
what would happen if he asked me to write down that I have stolen a pen?..would this situation realistically happen?...(signed comfession)
Because I remember reading the book and it saying never to sign such a thing..but I am confused on this one because it is on my background packet..
sorry if I seem a bit worried over catious :D
I still see the polygrapher as an escaped mental patient who had tied me up to a card board box which can detect my lies LOL ;D
Conquistador,
If you disclosed that you accidently took a been on your application of course you should NOT use CM on that.
Just admit to it, and move on.
For what purpose are you taking the polygraph? Criminal suspect? Job applicant? Which agency?
You DO NOT use CM on relevant questions! If this is a LE agency, stealing would probably be a RELEVANT issue. So admit to taking the pen, BY MISTAKE< but don't admit to anything else!
Don't sign anything, and do not volunteer anything of a self incriminating nature concerning RELEVANT questions, NO MATTER how INSIGNIFICANT you may think it is. Except for the pen which you've already discclosed, and they probably don't give a shit about!
TC
TC,
You make want to look at the Wiki link again--it appears to have been edited by a polygraph operator.
By the references to "Dr. George Maschke," it would be reasonable to conclude that the editing may have been done by the same polygraph operator recently ejected from this site.
YIKES!!
That guy is desperate to keep the truth from being exposed.
TC
The wikiHow article was heavily vandalized, evidently by a polygrapher using the screen name JBBOOKS, on 22 October 2008:
http://www.wikihow.com/index.php?title=Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)&diff=2666910&oldid=2532424
This was one week after I posted an observation on the article's popularity here:
https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=3256.msg31273#msg31273
Don't people change wikis all the time? My college professor banned using them for research because they change all the time and they aren't very accurate.
I think thats one of the base rules for wikihow is that anyone is supposed to be able to change them right?
In case anyone doesn't already know, J.B. Books was a character in the movie THE SHOOTIST with John Wayne.
Later Pilgrims!
TC
Quote from: PhilGainey on Oct 28, 2008, 09:20 PMQuoteThe last Question I have is should I use counter measures on irrelevant questions? or just the Control?....I apologize if that has been asked a million times I just want to make sure...
You employ CM on the CONTROL questions only! If and only if there are control questions. They compare your reaction to the control questions and relevant questions. If you react more to the control questions you pass.
DO NOT USE CMs ON IRRELEVANT QUESTIONS! That is, questions like ("Is your name...?" "Were you born in ...?"...etc.
Note: With some test formats, you don't need to use CMs. For example, in 2000 I took the polygraph at the NSA. They used a format in which there were NO CONTROL QUESTIONS. There were only relevant questions (4 counter intelligence questions), and then some filler questions ("Is your name...?", "Were you born in....?"). In that format, if you react (above a certain threshold) more on one RQ, versus the other RQs, you fail.
TC
Indeed, the NSA's standby polygraph technique is the Relevant/Irrelevant one. However, most law enforcement agencies use some variant of the Control Question Test to screen applicants. One of the most commonly used probable-lie control questions involves theft from an employer. If a law enforcement applicant admits to pilfering a pen or two when asked, "Did you ever take anything from an employer?" the question will be re-phrased, "Other than what you told me, did you ever take anything from an employer?" The question is
still a control question, and the examinee's denial is
still expected to be less than fully truthful. And an examinee using countermeasures would
still want to show a reaction to this question.
It should be borne in mind, however, that some agencies use a
relevant question about
major theft from an employer. For example, a relevant question reportedly used by the LAPD (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=2632.msg18618#msg18618) is, "Have you stolen more than four hundred dollars in cash or property from an employer?" If a question about theft from an employer involves theft beyond a significant dollar threshold, it's safe to assume that it is a relevant question.
Quote from: Phillip_F_Queeg on Nov 06, 2008, 11:44 PMDon't people change wikis all the time? My college professor banned using them for research because they change all the time and they aren't very accurate.
I think thats one of the base rules for wikihow is that anyone is supposed to be able to change them right?
I don't think you understand. No one is claiming that people cannot change wikis, or that wikis are not changed frequently.
George's post was simply pointing out that the wiki article was changed, either by a person who believes the polygraph is a valid test or by a person who doesn't want correct information on the polygraph to be publicly available.
Quote from: PhilGainey on Nov 06, 2008, 01:44 PMConquistador,
If you disclosed that you accidently took a been on your application of course you should NOT use CM on that.
Just admit to it, and move on.
For what purpose are you taking the polygraph? Criminal suspect? Job applicant? Which agency?
You DO NOT use CM on relevant questions! If this is a LE agency, stealing would probably be a RELEVANT issue. So admit to taking the pen, BY MISTAKE< but don't admit to anything else!
Don't sign anything, and do not volunteer anything of a self incriminating nature concerning RELEVANT questions, NO MATTER how INSIGNIFICANT you may think it is. Except for the pen which you've already discclosed, and they probably don't give a shit about!
TC
I am applying for Custody Assistant with the Los Angeles Sheriff Department and am currently waiting for my background to clear. Next I will be applying for border Patrol are you familar with the test procedure either one employs?
Quote from: 0D22202B2C430 on Nov 17, 2008, 04:49 PMI am applying for Custody Assistant with the Los Angeles Sheriff Department and am currently waiting for my background to clear. Next Iwill be applying for border Patrol are you familar with the test procedure either one employs?
I believe that both LASD and Border Patrol use a probable-lie control question test (CQT) for pre-employment screening. The Border Patrol's specific polygraph technique is likely some variation of the Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test, the examiner's guide for which you'll find here:
https://antipolygraph.org/documents/dodpi-lepet.pdf
And you'll find a pamphlet produced by the LASD polygraph section here:
https://antipolygraph.org/documents/lasd-polygraph-pamphlet.pdf
The pamphlet's sample polygraph report features check boxes with, presumably, the section's most commonly used polygraph techniques: ZCT (Zone Comparison Test), MGQT (Modified General Question Test), AFMGQT (Air Force Modified General Question Test), and POT (Peak of Tension). Of these, the most likely techniques that would be used in a screening situation are the MGQT and AFMGQT. Regarding these techniques, see p. 364 ff. (http://books.google.com/books?id=4yThE6vChBAC&pg=RA2-PA364&lpg=RA2-PA364) of James Allan Matte's
Forensic Psychophysiology Using the Polygraph.