I am a 23 year-old male college student. I'm born and raised in Salt Lake City, Utah. As many of you probably know, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also known as LDS or Mormon) is the predominant religion in Utah and one that I am proud to be associated with. Anyway, many young men in the LDS church serve as missionaries for 2 years. I chose to do so and lived in South Korea for 2 years where I had the opportunity to learn the Korean language. After my return, I continued my Korean studies. I was also pursuing a double major in Mass Communication and International studies. After finishing my Korean class one day, I went into the hall and saw a poster saying something to the effect of "Join the FBI." I checked out their website and saw that Korean was a language they'd be interested in.
I looked into being a linguist. I took the test at the FBI office and didn't pass. In order to get my Korean up to par, I decided to spend a semester abroad as an exchange student (through the University of Utah) at a college in South Korea. In the meantime, I had applied and been accepted for the volunteer internship program in Quantico, VA, pending a polygraph and background investigation. The internship was to be with the Practical Applications Unit. On the day I received my acceptance letter I was ecstatic.
After filling out some paperwork and taking a drug test at the SLC FBI office, I was told that I'd have a polygraph test before long. The person I talked with at the SLC FBI office told me that it would be better to do no research on polygraph testing before I had the actual test, so I didn't research more than the little I already knew.
The day of the Polygraph came. I happily took the day off work to take the test. The polygrapher was very friendly when we first met. His demeanor would soon change.
After the first set of questions, he sits down in front of me and accursedly asks, "Are you doin' countermeasures on me?" I told him that I didn't even know what countermeasures were (I didn't at that time). He continued to badger me that I was "doin' something."
The test progressed for 2 hours. He told me that there were a few questions I was having trouble with. I figured it must be because the questions were so ambiguous, such as "Have you ever told a deep, dark lie?" or "Have you ever betrayed someone you love?" He was convinced I was lying to him. I explained that the questions were ambiguous and we went though and reworded the questions. I don't know if this helped, but it seemed to as the test continued long after that. At one point, he said that the machine indicated that I had had contact with foreign intelligence persons. He admitted that he didn't think that was accurate! He said I was too young to have even of had that kind of opportunity.
As the test wrapped up, he continued by saying "I am a great judge of character. You seem like a good egg to me, but there's something you aren't telling me. I don't know what it is, but there is something." When I insisted there wasn't anything, he very curtly escorted me out of his office without so much as a handshake. I thought my chances were gone.
5 months later (after my return from my semester abroad), I got a phone call from the same polygrapher saying he'd like to schedule another test. I had debated whether or not I wanted to do the test again (because I knew what to expect this time) but I really wanted to do this internship.
The polygrapher was very friendly on the phone. When we met again in the SLC FBI office, he was still friendly. He told me that during our last interview, the question I had the most problem with was drugs. Drugs?! I couldn't believe it. One of the few questions I could answer without ambiguity in my mind! I'm a Mormon! (Not that Mormons are immune to the effects of drugs) I'm a poster American kid. I have no police record – I've never even gotten a speeding ticket. I've never even gone to a party where drugs were used. My friends don't use drugs. Crap, I think I've only seen people using maybe once or twice in the city Park.
Anyway, I explained this to the polygrapher, but he didn't believe me. He was convinced of the accuracy of his test. But contrary to our first interview, he was very kind and sincere this time. I honestly felt like he wanted to help me pass the test. Well actually, he wanted me to admit to using drugs. "We're all young and stupid once," he said. "A lot of people in this office have used. You just can't have done anything in the last three years." I continued to tell him the truth that I had never been close to drugs, let alone use or sell them.
He told me that I would make a great FBI agent. "America is in trouble. They need people like you. You have a great opportunity in front of you. Don't lose it by holding on to this lie." I almost wished I had of had something to tell him about. He made it sound so easy to get rid of. "If you've used, we just do an addendum and that's that." But if I had used, that means I would have been lying up to that point! How could they possibly hire someone who had blatantly been lying?!
I told the polygrapher that there was no ambiguity in my mind about drug use. He replied, "I agree with you there. There's no ambiguity." Evidently, I scored a -5 on that question (on a scale from -5 to +6). I continued to say I don't know why. I asked him about one of the more basic questions, "Do you intend to lie to me today?" He said that I had scored a 0 on that question, meaning, "Ideally, you're in the positives, +4 to +6. A score in the negatives means you're planning on lying to me. A zero means I better be paying attention because you're thinking about lying to me." That coupled with a -2 on the truthfulness of my FBI application cemented in this polygrapher's head that I was trying to hide some kind of drug use. "Here's what I think," he said. "Some time in high school, you're at a party, a friend offers you a joint, and you take a hit." I denied the allegation to no avail.
I reminded the polygrapher that I had told him I was not going to lie to him today. I would not admit to something I didn't do. He told me that if I didn't admit to it, the door on my FBI future would be shut FOREVER. I told him I really wish that wouldn't happen, but it looks like I don't stand a chance. He thanked me, walked me out of the office and cordially told me to "take care."
As disappointing as it was to know that the FBI was now closed to me, I felt good. I could hold my head high. I had stuck to my guns and told the truth. Someday, I'm going to prove to that polygrapher that I was telling the truth!
The most amazing thing in this whole ordeal was that this was for an UNPAID internship! I was sacrificing time and money so that I could get my foot in the door. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm an intelligent, law-abiding through and through American. I would have loved to have served my country in this capacity. Now that my FBI options are shot, I must figure out what to do next.
At any rate, I am glad to see I am not alone in this. I intend to write my Senator, Orin Hatch, but between the bureaucracy and the apathy in politicians, I do not expect much of a result. If everybody does this, perhaps we can someday make a difference.
Typical idiot BS. The fool wanted you to give him anything he could use against you, so that he could prove to his employers (FBI) how skilled he is at his job. Trying to plant themes in your head, trying to urge you to lie, just so's he could prove a false point.
What a turkey. The FBI makes a mockery of itself using this BS interview/grading process.
If thats the best shot they've got - then they are in deep Shit.
I've been a polygrapher for a long time now. You're experience doesn't sound very typical. You must have had a bad examiner.
Years of experience have shown me that the polygraph is a very accurate process. Somewhere around 98% accurate. You just have to cooperate with the examiner and be totally forthcoming.
Did you come to this site prior to the test. If so, it may have polluted you mind with lies and had an effect on your results.
The Lie Spy
I didn't come to this site before my exam. At an interview I had prior to my polygraph, I was told it was better to not to research. That admonition, along with the fact that I had nothing to hide, I didn't do any research. Although, now that I've looked at this site, I've seen quite a few people with experiences similar to mine.
Also, the examiner had done polygraphs for 20+ years and even said, "I am good at my job." So I don't think it was due to inexperience.
I find it hard to believe that the test is 98% accurate. Granted, that leaves a 2% margin for error, but with all the experiences I've read, it doesn't seem likely that all of these people were just in that 2%.
I was as cooperative as possible, TOTALLY forthcoming, and I still didn't pass. It sucks too, because I think I really could've made a worthwhile contribution there.
Quote from: Phlyfisher on Jul 28, 2008, 05:21 PMI've been a polygrapher for a long time now. You're experience doesn't sound very typical.
98% of the people that post here report similar stories.
sounds very typical to me.
Quote
You must have had a bad examiner.
Or a good one with bad technology. (tongue-in-cheek)
Face it LS, the system is a confession generator. Full Stop.
Quote
Years of experience have shown me that the polygraph is a very accurate process.
Thats what your instructor told you. Unless you carried out your own extensive research iro false positives vs false negatives vs Inconclusives then you're simply parrotting APA BS. If you did carry out such research then please publish it, I'm sure George will be happy to publish.
Quote
Somewhere around 98% accurate. You just have to cooperate with the examiner and be totally forthcoming.
Again, you're merely parroting the APA BS numbers. The next examiner that can PROVE he has achieved 98% accuracy, or even 75% accuracy will be the first - AND - it will NEVER happen.
Quote
Did you come to this site prior to the test. If so, it may have polluted you mind with lies and had an effect on your results.
If he had come to this site he would have learned all the BS that you I and a few thousand others paid top $ for.
Polygraphers have come to this site in an attempt to educate. Seems not to have sunk in. Besides, we don't have to explain ourselves. We've won the political-bureaucratic fight. The test is here to stay.
I won't waste my time doing the same. Just stop whinning and get over it. Sackett and Coffey were right. Just one big "pity party" over here.
If you want some straight answers about the process go to "The Polygraph Place". There you won't get the distorted "anti" hype.
TLS
Quote from: Phlyfisher on Jul 29, 2008, 01:05 PMPolygraphers have come to this site in an attempt to educate. Seems not to have sunk in.
Polygraphers come to this site to sprout nonsense. The gospel of the ten-week church. Get over yourself bud.
QuoteBesides, we don't have to explain ourselves. We've won the political-bureaucratic fight. The test is here to stay.
So why then is APA membership shrinking in real terms?
Start scanning the To Hire columns - get in first.
QuoteI won't waste my time doing the same. Just stop whinning and get over it. Sackett and Coffey were right. Just one big "pity party" over here.
Sackett invented the straw-man argument process.
Coffee is a loser of note.
What else you got ?
QuoteIf you want some straight answers about the process go to "The Polygraph Place". There you won't get the distorted "anti" hype.
Oh please, now your ass is showing. PP does not tolerate even 1 word of anything that whiffs of 'anti'. No place for open debate. Just Sackett et al pushing one-sided, bs advice. They get so bored over there, which is why they frequently come over here for a bout of sparring.
Phlyfisher,
Thank you for sharing your polygraph experience. Sadly, it is one that is all too common. As the FBI marks its 100th anniversary, it is a dark stain on its honor that it continues to pretend to judge the honesty and integrity of individuals based on the thoroughly discredited (https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-018.shtml) pseudoscience of polygraphy.
You'll want to write to the FBI contesting your polygrapher's false accusation of deception. Your letter should be added to your FBI file -- a permanent record -- and will document the fact that you do not, through silence, tacitly accept your polygrapher's accusations. In addition, you'll want to file a Privacy Act request (http://foia.fbi.gov/foia_instruc.htm) for your entire FBI file, including, but not limited to, all information concerning your polygraph interrogation.
George, thanks for the advice. If I write a letter, where should it be sent to? My local FBI office or to the bigwigs?
If you received written notice of your polygraph results and/or the rejection of your internship application, then I would address the letter to the official who wrote that letter and cc the FBI Director and the Special Agent in Charge of the Salt Lake City Field Office. If you didn't receive anything in writing, you might just write to the latter two.
Could it just be that you didn't pass the test? I mean really here people, you guys make it sound like nobody passes these things. How can they have people working for them then? Get off your little whiny butts and tell the truth next time.
And come on George. You didn't pass. You've dedicated your life to this. What a waste. Were the drugs really worth it?
QuoteCould it just be that you didn't pass the test? I mean really here people, you guys make it sound like nobody passes these things. How can they have people working for them then? Get off your little whiny butts and tell the truth next time.
About half of applicants at the FBI pass, the other half doesn't.
The question, however, is of the half that fails, what percentage were actually untruthful. It is hard to believe that anywhere near half of those applying for a job at the FBI (typically a straight-laced bunch) were untruthful answering questions concerning drug use, committing crimes, espionage...etc.
TC
Back to the main event, the FBI expects two out of three intel analyst to fail the polygraph. Now when I say "fail" I mean "not within acceptable parameters". Guilty without evidence, job application shut down without evidence, all other Federal opportunities requiring a polygraph shut down without evidence. Guilt by assumption but without evidence. Typical of an Agency that prides itself on the the big three principles of justice but circumvents the law to accomplish its ends that justify the means.
The FBI is getting exactly what it wants, people who do not think out of the box, willing to support the status quo of the "good ole boys" network, and willing to look the other way when it benefits them or their careers.
Pre-screening polygraphs are a crutch for not doing proper throrough back ground checks. The FBI has existed for most of the century without needing the polygraph. It is a convenient crutch to go to Congress and say "the polygraph is the end all of security and what more do you expect of us?".
The FBI has paid a price for using the polygraph and the United States will continure to pay a price for the FBI's insane confidence that the polygraph can do no wrong.
Regards.
Quote from: Phlyfisher on Aug 14, 2008, 05:28 PMQuoteCould it just be that you didn't pass the test? I mean really here people, you guys make it sound like nobody passes these things. How can they have people working for them then? Get off your little whiny butts and tell the truth next time.
About half of applicants at the FBI pass, the other half doesn't.
The question, however, is of the half that fails, what percentage were actually untruthful. It is hard to believe that anywhere near half of those applying for a job at the FBI (typically a straight-laced bunch) were untruthful answering questions concerning drug use, committing crimes, espionage...etc.
TC
The USA is a nanny state with draconian laws.
It is natural therefore that its agencies will rely on something as
draconian as polygraphy. When you dont have the talent to process
humans efficiently, bring out the old magic stick. What a shame.
Hi Phlyfisher, I had a very similar experience going for an internship for this summer. My background investigation was nearly complete, but I still got the rejection letter because of the polygraph. Have you received your Privacy Act information from the FBI? I'm curious as to how long you waited and what kind of information you received.
Anyways, thanks for posting. I think as long as good and honest people have the courage to speak, the polygraph cannot be maintained. Our society has placed its trust in the hands of the FBI, but the FBI has chosen to defame some of its best applicants in order to protect themselves and their faulty system. I don't see how any lover of justice could stomach being part of that organization, knowing this. I know I certainly can't.
Quote from: theliespy on Jul 28, 2008, 05:21 PMI've been a polygrapher for a long time now. You're experience doesn't sound very typical. You must have had a bad examiner.
I guess I had a "bad examiner", too, as that isn't too off the mark from what happened to me... told repeatedly that I'm concealing drug use, when my entire experience with drugs was some pot 20 years ago. But, of course, once they decide that the tea leaves say "Lie", the only possibility to placate them is to "give them more"... but if there's no more to give, how do you do that? I told him I could make something up for him, except it would be a lie.
We spent
hours on "drugs", even though my answer never changed, because it couldn't change.
Quote from: theliespy on Jul 29, 2008, 01:05 PMPolygraphers have come to this site in an attempt to educate. Seems not to have sunk in. Besides, we don't have to explain ourselves. We've won the political-bureaucratic fight. The test is here to stay.
I won't waste my time doing the same. Just stop whinning and get over it. Sackett and Coffey were right. Just one big "pity party" over here.
Then why is the poly not accepted in a single courtroom in the US, or any civilized country that I'm aware of?
Quote from: lawrence griswold on Aug 14, 2008, 04:14 PMCould it just be that you didn't pass the test? I mean really here people, you guys make it sound like nobody passes these things. How can they have people working for them then? Get off your little whiny butts and tell the truth next time.
And come on George. You didn't pass. You've dedicated your life to this. What a waste. Were the drugs really worth it?
I did tell the truth, and so far, they haven't decided to pass me.
Given a very specific question; "Have you used any drugs in the past two years?" The answer is no. No hemming, no hawing, no kinda-sortas. Make it twenty years, and the answer is the same. Yet the tea leaves say that's a lie. The only way to "pass" is to cough up "facts" that aren't true. How exactly does one do that?
Quote from: polybunk on Jul 18, 2011, 07:10 PMThen why is the poly not accepted in a single courtroom in the US, or any civilized country that I'm aware of?
May I correct one miss-statement,
Polygraph has been admitted in numerous jurisdictions across the nation. I have testified in several courts on polygraph and it was admissable.