Hello Everyone,
I want to start off my first post by saying I really wish I had researched polygraphs before I had been administered one. I knew they were inadmissible in most court situations, I knew they were regarded as bunk science, yet I didn't "refresh" my memory prior to my polygraph because I was worried it would make me more anxious and cause me to fail. Little did I know that I was being set up to fail from the start; and having read this site would have let me beat the odds that were stacked against me.
My polygraph horror story is in regards to the one department that seems to be the worst offender; the FBI.
First off, some information on me. I'm about as an ideal candidate as you can get. I hold two degrees in political science, I've got a squeaky clean record; I don't drink, I've never done drugs, my credit is spotless and I've never even so as much as gotten a speeding ticket.
When I received a conditional offer for employment with the FBI a few months ago, I couldn't have been more pleased. I have wanted to work for the government since I was in college, and I worked my butt of in school, and stayed on the straight and narrow to make that happen.
When I went in for my security interview, it was a very pleasant experience. The agent interviewing me was extremely nice, and even suggested I apply for a better position then the one I was offered, and passed my information on to the recruiter for that area. He told me I had an amazing background, and that he would love to have someone like me working along side him. He assured me I would have no problem with the polygraph and I'd be an employee in no time.
He then returned me to the reception area where I had to wait for the polygrapher. And wait. And wait some more. He ended up being close to forty minutes late for my appointment. I figured he was busy, and this is normal. Little did I know this was just step one in creating a stressful situation for me.
The polygrapher was the exact opposite of the agent conducting the security interview; he was brash, curt, and looked at me right off the bat with the suspicion that I was nothing more than a criminal. I figured he had just been at his job for too long and this was the type of thing one could not turn off.
He went through a pre interview, stressing over and over again how integrity is the most important thing and that they cannot employ people who lie. EVER. He kept building it up and up to me that if I have ever lied, to an employer, or a loved one, that I was not FBI material. At this point I obviously started to get nervous.
When he went over the questions, which I later found out were the true "control" questions, I was very nervous as I immediately noticed a grey area. Have I ever lied to a superior? I'm sure I had. I had to have done that. I know that I had lied to a previous boss and told her I agreed with her when I didn't. Does he really mean that I cannot lie? Aren't little white lies okay as long as they aren't anything serious? For this first one I told him no, as I was really hoping he meant serious stuff.
When he got to the question about lying to your loved ones, your spouse, the people who rely on you, I broke down and said yes.
He stopped, tore his glasses off, and yelled "WHAT?!!!!!???" Literally tore them off, and began shaking with rage.
You would have thought that I had murdered someone.
I explained that I am sure I have lied to my spouse in the past, about stupid things, like whether or not their clothes looked good, or whether or not I wanted to go out and do something.
He said "Those are fine. I mean SERIOUS things."
And I kept saying "But if I am supposed to have so much integrity, aren't those lies serious?
And he kept assuring me it was not and issue, while following it up with "Didn't your parents teach you right from wrong? Do you know right from wrong?" And telling me that his little machine was going to "find out" if they brought me up right.
I started to feel like I was in the twilight zone ;[
As a side note, I am one of those people that has a tendency to want to go above and beyond. So if someone is sitting there railing against me and telling me I should never lie, I'm going to think every time I told a lie that it was damaging to my character and makes me a bad person. And if you ask me a very vague question like "Have you ever lied to someone close to you" or "Have you ever cheated on a test?" of course I'm going to rack my brain for the one time when I was a kid when I may have done this.
Back to my story. The polygrapher sets me up for the test. He had me to do the number listing (answering no to each) as discussed on this site.
It was when he put on the blood pressure cuff that I realized I was going to have a problem. I have really bad circulation, and by the fourth question in my hand had turned bright red, with my veins popping out (almost like a tourquinet had been applied.) I had complained of the pain and even mistakenly moved a few times because of it, which he proceeded to yell at me about.
In the second set of questions, I was in excruciating pain because the series was longer, about 12 in all, and my hand was literally pounding. I asked him to do something about it. He got visibly pissed off, and agreed to move the cuff lower on my arm. As the test worse on, he became more and more hostile to me. At one point he yelled at me to get up from the chair as I was moving around too much, and then came over and pushed me down violently as I got up from it as I was still attached to the chest pieces. I asked him to please adjust the blood pressure cuff because of the pain.
Of course moving the cuff did nothing, as he kept inflating it to the point where I visibly had no circulation and was uncomfortable. I voiced this, but he said that was the best he could do.
Then we get to the end of the test, and he sits down and informs me with a grave voice that I failed. He proceeds into a tirade about how in his 20 years of law enforcement he has never seen a polygraph that was SO ACCURATE. I am the worst liar he has ever encountered, and my lies are "off the charts".
He then told me what question I failed on.
It was: "Have you ever used drugs or been involved in the sale of drugs."
I was FLOORED. Of all the things for me to fail on (after all, the control questions were the ones giving me a problem) I failed on drugs? The one thing I have never done in my life, EVER? The one thing that I have actually ended relationships over? Are you serious? Frankly I think for a person of my generation its fairly amazing that I haven't done them.
He proceeded to interrogate me as to what "troubled me about the question". Shocked, and dismayed, I tried to come up with reasons. I had a parent who was an alcoholic, and as a result I never wanted to drink, and never did drugs. He dismissed this right off saying there is "no way" those could be connected as "drugs" are not "alcohol" What? Aren't most kids nowadays taught that alcohol is a drug? Sorry buddy, but for me they are interrelated.
I gave him other reasons. I had broken up with a boyfriend I had at the tender age of 15 as I thought he had sold drugs. I ended a friendship in grad school over drug use. The later he really latched on; he started yelling at me "If you are so anti-drug, why did you hang out with someone who did them?" I said because I thought that was in their past, and when I found out it not only wasn't, but was causing them to act crazy, our friendship fell apart.
He then railed on me for another ten minutes about how I just need to be honest, I've used drugs. I need to stop lying. He asked if I had ever been offered. I said of course. He said he didn't believe me because people "never give away drugs". I must have bought them. I'm a drug user and a buyer. What? Again I was confused...when did I ever say someone was "giving them away?" To me I meant, I had been offered to buy them. I thought that was implicit in my statement.
He went on and on and on saying how its such a shame because I'm so professional, I'm such a great fit, but unfortunately I'M A LIAR and I have "issues with that question." Meanwhile he interspersed the conversation with "war stories" from his years as an agent about other people that lied, as well as other people that issues with the questions and why. Isn't that information confidential? He must have told me about seven different people and gave out very personal details of their lives.
Then he explained I had to write this all down and give it to him so that he could send it to HQ who would decide what to do with me. The way he made it sound was that they might go through with my background check after all. While I was writing it, he very loudly and unprofessionally called the HR person I was supposed to meet with and told her how professional I was, but how much of a liar I was, and she would have to cancel her appointment with me. I could tell the HR person was a bit annoyed, because the conversation lasted for a few minutes and she was asking him questions that he seemed to rail against as well.
Then he makes me give him the statement, as well as the three signed papers I needed to bring to start my background check. After taking those papers I assumed I was ok. Why take the papers if they didn't want to check me?
Then he tells me the truth. He digs into me telling me that I'm pretty much done with the FBI, I can just forget it because I'm a liar. Then he tells me I'm pretty much down with any federal job because they share all the info and everybody will know I'm a liar. Oh, and btw the FBI does the background checks for ALL agencies, so I'm out of luck, forever.
I left that meeting feeling like my life is over. I still feel that way today.
In the interim I hopped on the Internet and started my own research. I found out about the lie behind the polygraph, the court case involving the FBI, and the dozens of law firms just in DC that deal with helping people wrongly denied security clearances. I was blown away. If there are that many law firms just in DC dedicated solely to these issues, how pervasive must it be?
I'm now at a crossroads and I don't know what to do. I was hoping the people who frequent this forum could give me some advice.
I know step one is that I should request my file via the freedom of information act. Beyond that I'm not sure what I want to do because I no longer want the job (why would I want to work for them when I know I will only have to be submitted to this charade again in five years?) but what I am horribly concerned with is that my federal career really is dead in the water.
I have contacted a lawyer, who seemed really familiar with the issue but to consult him is quite expensive and I'm not sure if it's worth it. Right now my main concern is about this information being shared with other agencies or being used against me in anyway.
So my questions are:
1. If I do not want the job, is a lawyer worth it?
2. I've read here that nobody ever passes the retest with the FBI. Is this 100 percent true? I ask because I'm sure if I consult a lawyer, they would need me to pursue retesting to prove that the FBI has no intention of allowing me to pass.
3. I know the court case has been settled in favor of the FBI. Does anyone know if the lawyers involved are planning an appeal? I couldn't find any info about it on their website.
4. Do I need to worry about this? Is my life truly over? I'm sure if I apply to the State dept, it would become a problem, but what about places, which shouldn't have an intense background check, like the VBA or USAID?
5. Would it be worth contacting the ACLU since I am female and pursuing it that way? Frankly if anybody wanted to use me as a test case they would be hitting a goldmine, as my record is so clean.
6. Are the issues about my pain during the test, the waiting time, and the stories he told me about other people's tests significant? Do these violate any ethical standards?
I am fairly sure that when the polygraph went in there with the preconceived notion that I was a liar, as I told him in the question review part of the test that I had never did drugs. And he so convinced that I was a liar that he did everything with his his power to make that outcome a reality.
Honestly, I think its fairly laughable that a federal law enforcement agency can accuse me of lying based on a pseudo science, but not actually put any of their law enforcement capabilities to work to find out if they are right or wrong.
Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated.
NoLongerBeliever
Assuming all fact to be true and answering Q6 only. The wait, acceptable, the stories, acceptable. But if the examiner overinflated the cuff to intentionally cause discomfort to your arm, certainly unprofessional. If data collection was computerized, there should be a record.
NoLongerBelieve
It doesn't take a lawyer for you to officially charge the sadistic bastard with assault then bring a damage lawsuit against him and his employer. He is not allowed to put his hands on you much less shove you down in a chair. Go to the police station and charge him with assault and endangerment and demand his arrest. Cutting off circulation is very dangerous. There is no reason for a BP cuff to be that tight for a good test. The physical abuse probably wouldn't have happened if you were a man. A man, who was any kind of a man, would have put him on the floor. This website is full of experiences like yours and it makes me so angry I want to go kick his ass for you. As long as applicants puts up with this crap and not fight back, it will certainly continue.
Pailrider,yankiedog, sackett, etc., do you think there is still a membership place in APA for that SOB? Will the APA sanction him for assault? Or will you poo poo this case like you do others of this nature. The polygraph industry should clean its own house before trying to clean others.
pailryder...even though you are a practicing polygrapher I have a high regard for you, as you have not resorted to the kinds of personal attacks posted by the other polygraphers on this message board.
I too had a similar experience with the blood pressure cuff being too tight on my arm. I informed the polygrapher (CSP conducted by a federal polygrapher but not from the FBI), and he relocated the cuff to my leg. As long as he could get a reading, he was satisfied.
I understand all federal polygraphers (FBI, CIA, etc.) receive their initial training from the DODPI (DACA), and that they are trained not to engage in yelling at the subject. But it may be that they undergo additional training by the federal agency who ultimately hires them, and that this additional training reflects institutionalized biases. And they receive their performance appraisals and salary raises from same.
Regarding the dismissed lawsuit filed by attorney Mark Zaid, I don't know if an appeal is to be filed. I suppose the FBI (and DEA and USSS) could argue they operate in the interest of national security and therefore are above the law. This may be partially true; nevertheless all applicants for sensitive federal jobs should be treated with respect and dignity during a pre-employment polygraph. Having a sensitive federal job is a privilege, but I feel it is a right to be rationally evaluated for the position.
Perhaps the dismissal of the lawsuit may have "emboldened" the FBI polygraphers. This is strictly my opinion.
I suggest the establishment of an independent organization to conduct all federal polygraphs (pre-employment, periodic security screening, criminal specific). The polygraphers would be answerable only to this single organization, and not to the organization who has requested the polygraph.
I would welcome any comments from federal polygraphers. If Jim Sackett or pailryder (or any other polygraphers who visit this website) can count among their fellow practitioners some who are federal polygraphers (trained at DODPI), please ask them to post their comments and opinions on this message board.
NoLongerBeliever deserves serious answers to her questions.
Regards,
Evan S
QuoteAnd he kept assuring me it was not and issue, while following it up with "Didn't your parents teach you right from wrong? Do you know right from wrong?" And telling me that his little machine was going to "find out" if they brought me up right.
That is not true, and he knows it is not true. He lied. So how did he manage to get hired by the FBI if lying disqualifies one as "FBI material".
QuoteI started to feel like I was in the twilight zone ;[
You were. The ironic thing is that HONEST people, who want to BE TOTALLY UP FRONT, don't do well in such an environment.
Incidently, they WANT you to lie to control questions. That way they can compare your reactions to a control question, to any reaction while answering a "relevant" question. If your reaction is stronger when answering the later, you fail! The key to passing is to react MORE to the control questions. That is one of their "dirty little secrets".
QuoteIn the second set of questions, I was in excruciating pain because the series was longer, about 12 in all, and my hand was literally pounding. I asked him to do something about it. He got visibly pissed off, and agreed to move the cuff lower on my arm. As the test worse on, he became more and more hostile to me. At one point he yelled at me to get up from the chair as I was moving around too much, and then came over and pushed me down violently as I got up from it as I was still attached to the chest pieces. I asked him to please adjust the blood pressure cuff because of the pain.
This is why polygraphs should be video taped and a copy kept on file by a third party. They wouldn't try this shit if they knew they were being taped.
We just discussed this on another thread, and we got a bunch of lame answers from a practicing polygrapher as to why that would be a mistake. They don't want scrutiny. Scrutiny is their enemy!
QuoteThen we get to the end of the test, and he sits down and informs me with a grave voice that I failed. He proceeds into a tirade about how in his 20 years of law enforcement he has never seen a polygraph that was SO ACCURATE. I am the worst liar he has ever encountered, and my lies are "off the charts".
They say that to all the girls! ;D
I started a thread awhile back about a murder case in which the polygrapher said the same thing (almost word for word) to a young kid who just discovered his fiancee had been murdered. Of course, he was found INNOCENT.
I think they teach them this shit in polygraph school.
I could go on and on.
Welcome to the club. Their are many, many people who have been in your situation. This is how this board got established.
Tell everyone you know about your experience! The public has been sold a bill of goods with regard to the polygraph.
Read the "The lie behind the lie detector", and the National Academy of Sciences report on the polygraph. Both can be download from the home page of this site.
TC
Evan S
Your post is spot on. I agree NoLonger deserves an answer, but she shouldn't hold her breath. As a private I am not in a position to provide a complete answer. My experience has been with retired FBI examiners, who once seperated from their agency are forced to face the realities of the private workplace.
Quote from: NoLongerBelieve on May 22, 2008, 08:10 PM1. If I do not want the job, is a lawyer worth it?
Probably not. I don't know what a lawyer could accomplish for you at this point that you cannot do on your own.
Quote2. I've read here that nobody ever passes the retest with the FBI. Is this 100 percent true? I ask because I'm sure if I consult a lawyer, they would need me to pursue retesting to prove that the FBI has no intention of allowing me to pass.
The only exception that comes to mind involved an FBI applicant who was already employed by a federal law enforcement agency prior to his seeking employment with the FBI.
Quote3. I know the court case has been settled in favor of the FBI. Does anyone know if the lawyers involved are planning an appeal? I couldn't find any info about it on their website.
To the best of my knowledge, no appeal has been filed. I'm doubtful whether one could be filed at this stage, as more than a year has passed since the court's ruling.
Quote4. Do I need to worry about this? Is my life truly over? I'm sure if I apply to the State dept, it would become a problem, but what about places, which shouldn't have an intense background check, like the VBA or USAID?
It's certainly not the end of your life, but it will have adverse consequences. Whenever a National Agency Check is done on you (as it may be for any number of federal jobs), it will come to light that you have an FBI file, and that file will be requested and reviewed, and your polygraph results may at that point become a hindrance.
Quote5. Would it be worth contacting the ACLU since I am female and pursuing it that way? Frankly if anybody wanted to use me as a test case they would be hitting a goldmine, as my record is so clean.
The ACLU has in the past taken a public stance against polygraphy in the workplace, and it's not a bad idea to contact your local office regarding your experience. Whether or not gender bias played a role in your polygraph results, no person's honesty and integrity should be judged on the basis of such junk science as polygraphy.
Quote6. Are the issues about my pain during the test, the waiting time, and the stories he told me about other people's tests significant? Do these violate any ethical standards?
I don't think the waiting time is such a big deal, and it may not have been intentional. The stories he told you about other people's tests don't necessarily constitute misconduct (he didn't disclose their names, right?), and in any event, the stories may have been cut from whole cloth and simply intended to encourage you to make an admission.
The pain you felt is a significant issue though, whether or not the polygrapher intentionally overinflated the pressure cuff, and the pain you experienced could have affected the outcome of the examination.
QuoteI am fairly sure that when the polygraph went in there with the preconceived notion that I was a liar, as I told him in the question review part of the test that I had never did drugs. And he so convinced that I was a liar that he did everything with his his power to make that outcome a reality.
It's entirely possible that your polygrapher decided he was going to flunk you from the get-go, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that such is the case. While he may have seemed like an asshole while "setting" the "control" questions, his theatrics may have actually been intended to "help" you pass by sensitizing you to those questions.
QuoteHonestly, I think its fairly laughable that a federal law enforcement agency can accuse me of lying based on a pseudo science, but not actually put any of their law enforcement capabilities to work to find out if they are right or wrong.
It is indeed absurd that our government relies on such pseudoscientific nonsense to judge people's honesty and integrity. I hope you'll join us in helping to spread the truth about lie detectors.
QuoteAny advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated.
At this stage, I think the most important thing you can do is to contest the polygraph results
in writing. Your letter should be added to your permanent FBI file and will document the fact that you do not, by your silence, tacitly acknowledge that the polygrapher's accusation of deception is true.
Hello Nolonger
My God Girl! I agree with Twoblock, It also makes me want to beat the crap out of this guy.
I have a friend of mine, someone I've known for nearly 18yrs. who's life is also being ruined by a polygragh.
He also exprienced the examiner blantently talking of other peoples cases, giving away very personal info than laughing about it! Read my post, it's under post-polygragh subject.
My friend is no angel and has been in alot of trouble, but he didn't deserve what happened to him.
You should file charges against this sorry excuse for a man. My Grandmother used to have a saying "The one that's accusin', is ususally doin'!" He may be abusing alcohol or drugs himself.
Maybe he was doing what he did to you because he thinks women don't belong working for the FBI? He may think women don't belong in the work place at all.
I'd definetly take this case to court. It is like I tell my friend, It could also help to prevent something like this happening to someone else.
Take it as a learning exprience as well. And Sweetie, don't EVER let anyone get like that with you again. Be patient with people, but don't let them run you over, learn to trust your instincts and look for "red flags".
I hope this will at least give some moral support. As far as career goes, dont' give up. You've still got a degree. I learned alot of self-disapline and confidence in the Military. Have you ever considered the Military? If I had not sustained an injury, I would've stayed in, I would have retired already!
Anyway, if there's anything I can do to help, sen me a PM.
cat
What proof does she have?
It will boil down to "he said, she said".
This is why most polygraphers are against video taping exams.
Wouldn't it be cool if a reporter took an FBI poly with a hidden camera? I'd watch that!
TC
Hey All,
Love you guys! Thanks for all the support...and for coming to my defense. :) I should have been more assertive, I've just always been that kid who never questioned authority, but I should know better! Much better! I guess the federal government is not for me if this is going to be the culture. I just wish I knew this before I had my heart set on it, and had wasted the last year on it.
Cat, I have actually considered the military at several points in my life. This time its more out of revenge, I know if I went down to my local recruiter they'd be happy to have me! But of course thats a bad reason to join. I think i'd be more serious about it if I had a good idea of where somebody with my background would end up by joining. But yes, the thought has crossed my mind!
I guess I have a lot of thinking to do about what my next steps will be. I'd hate for this to ruin my chances at something else, like USAID which really compliments what my degrees are in. God forbid I be able to help people in other countries....nope, lets just brand me a liar and a drug user instead, >:(
In a related note, the entire time he kept asking me if I was having a problem with the question, I was thinking "where have I heard this before?"
This morning it hit me: its the same thing the "auditors" from scientology ask their auditees when using the "e-meter". If you are not familiar with the e-meter, here are links to more information: http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/tsos/sos-18.html
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/E-Meter/
Some of you will find that its very similar to the poly in that it uses galvanic skin responses to measure a persons re-action to a subject. In this case they keep asking you what your problem is until you run through every possible thing that bothers you until your needle "floats" which means you are "clear" of any issue.
Not to disparage any of the polygraphers who frequent this site, but my intellectual curiosity is very much in overdrive when I think of the similarities between the two and how the one (e-meter) is largely seem as a sham run by a cult to bilk people out of money (you have to pay to have it done) and make them codependent on their auditor, while the other is still being used by our own government. Food for thought.
NoLongerBelieve
You and others in your shoes can help future applicants, and yourselves, by getting the ball rolling to remove and prevent idiot polygraphers (like yours) from forcing their abusive nature on others.
If you don't want to charge him with assualt, then contact an investigative reporter with the Washington Post and give him your story. Also contact the same type reporter at the TV station. Then write to your elected officials in D. C. and tell them if they don't do something about this, then you will campaign for their removal. That idiot is extremely lucky that he will never have to test me.
To me, the main purpose of this site is to educate and George has done an exemplary job with it but, to only post your story here will have little adverse effect on the polygraph industry. It may serve to to give you a little peace of mind. If EVERYONE who posts their complaints here would take them to the media and their congresspeople (and heaven forbid file individual lawsuits) you would see a difference. To give you an example: I just heard that the organization, with which I am very active, was instrumental in defeating the House Speaker's amnesty bill. We had nearly 100,000 signatures on a petition plus individual letters, e-mails and faxes. This is what it takes to make our poluted-crats take action. We could even lower gas prices (working on that one too) by taking such action. Those who are willing to do nothing, have no room to complain.
As I said before, I get angry when I read stories like yours and have written to my congresspeople on behalf your plights but, just my lowly letters alone has no effect.
NoLongerBelieve
I guess this is another one swept under the rug.
I can understand why polygraphers are quiet on this one and that the APA is willing to allow lawless members to remain in good standing even when those members physically assualts examinees (you) and sexually assualts another (another female examinee) by standing in front of her a number of times playing with himself along with others demanding personnal sexual historys of examinees. Quite an organization, aye, mates?
I will never understand how any truthful person would allow their integrity and future to be demolished without a fight. At my age, there is little anyone can do to damage me. However, there is much that can be done, and is being done, to damage my kids, grand-kids, great-grand-kids and you younger folk. Therefore, I keep fighting the wrongs whereever I find them for all of you. At times I think what's the use because most people can't seem to fight for themselves but, it's not my nature to give up.
We are inundated with Globalist laws designed to prevent us from defending ourselves and with the intent of making the people of this country passive. When this is completed, the king of the East (my guess the UN backed by the House of Rothchild) will raise his ugly head. When it happens, remember where you heard it.
Sackett
I do enjoy the useless jawing with you however, my time here is about to close for a while. Should have been gone a month ago, but that's what HAPPENS when one has to waite on slow pokes.
Twoblock,
Don't step in any bear shit while you are up there!
TC
2block
I did not read in NoLongers post that her examiner was an APA member or that she notified or complained to APA.
paleryder
Your response is what we have come to expect when a lawless polygrapher is exposed. How would she know if he was an APA member? I would expect any polygrapher, worth his salt, would be a member. The reason for my posts is trying to get her to take the experience to a higher level. Evidently, members are not interested in cleaning their own house.
Your last sentance isn't worth a comment.
Twoblock
The American Polygraph Association is the largest of several voluntary associations that persons with an interest in polygraph can pay and join. They are not much into the house cleaning business. I agree that people should do more that just state their case here. In some states there are state associations and in some states licening and regulatory boards that review complaints. Not everyone is willing to make waves.
You are right, sorry about the cheap shot. I envy your summer plans.
palerider
Apology accepted.
Your posts have always exhibited a lot of class and I think we all have a great deal of respect for you because of it. That's why I was somewhat supprised at your snip and didn't offer a comment. Some times I clear leather too quickly then think "boy I was a fast ass". I think it's natural for one to defend his chosen profession. I do mine even though it's rampant with crooks and I expose them every time I discover them. At times with some pretty good risk. However, as you can see, I'm the one who is still standing.
I believe NoLonger's polygrapher should lose his license for the way he treated her and be retrained in order to retrieve it. As you say, not very many want to make waves.
I will have to admit I am afraid to make waves. If one accusation of drug use in a pre-employment exam can completely ruin my chances of federal employment, FOREVER, I am extremely reluctant to go after the polygrapher himself. After all, it is my word, against his, and he has the backing of a government organization with a lot of money and good lawyers. I am just a struggling student straight out of grad school trying to find a job, who can't afford to pay the $300.00 an hour for a lawyer who specializes in this ;[
What I will be doing however, is taking a drug test at my own expense and sending it in with my letter to the FBI contesting my results. I will also be sending those results to several congressmen along with a letter explaining what happened to me. I am sure the FBI will "loose" the results proving I'm not a current drug user, or just say it doesn't matter as their policy indicates I could not have used in the past 5-10 years (depending on the drug) but hopefully any reasonable person conducting a background check would see my results and realize that someone who was "guilty" would not have bothered. Or one can hope.
I am still really upset about it, and haven't even been able to muster up the willpower to start applying to private sector jobs. I just feel beat down by this, and destroyed that I probably couldn't even get a clerks position now with the VA, or some other branch which doesn't deal with national security concerns.
It's also really warped my sense of the US government, big time. >:( I'm also embarrassed, as many of my peers and supervisors know that I was up for a few federal jobs, and now I have to explain to them what happened, and I'm sure more than a few of them will sit back and wonder if I'm telling the truth, because the story is just so unbelievable.
NoLongerBelieves
If my employment possibilities with the government was squashed, I would grab my boot straps and lift myself up to the kevel where I would have a straight swing to the nose. However, one thing that you must put first and foremost. Do not let this diminish one iota your continuing education. If you do, the idiot wins again.
I am glad you will be writing your U.S. Senators and Representative. In those letters list every detail of your poly experience and DEMAND a congressional investigation into the FBI, for that matter the whole government, polygraph procedure. Be sure to name your polygrapher in all correspondence even to the FBI with a copy to your HR Rep. Of coarse they all will deny it (after all arn't they a covert organization illegally gathering info on innocent U.S. citizery?) but, I'll bet there is a record somewhere of the total poly exam. Lean heavily on the physical abuse in all letters. I am still upset about that.
There is a Campus Poster Initiative thread on this site. If you need help, PM George and he'll tell you how to implement it.
I am real sorry for your experience and wish you all possible success in all your endeavors.
NoLonger
What you described does sound like scientology or maybe more like a frat hazing or other trial by fire initiation rite. Don't judge all government use by one agency's practice. And as for employment with the FBI, maybe you are better off without it. Molly Ivans listed that agency as one of the three most overrated things in this country, along with, oh well, I guess you'll have to look that up for yourself.
Nolonger,
Don't forget to take your story to the press.
You will probably get a white wash with your congressman. Politicians are useless unless they get a ton of letters about an issue, or there is bad press coverage.
TC
About 4 years ago, i was accused of a crime. I'm am currently a police officer. i was asked by the investigators to take a polygraph. Ignorance in my friend, I thought that the Poly would free me from suspicion! Boy was I wrong!
I didn't do any research on the polygraph prior to me taking my test. I did not know what a CQT was. My polygrapher accused me of being deceptive on the test. There was no evidence found, because I didn't commit the crime in question. For the past four years this poly has haunted me. I did not lie on the test, and I have been accused for four years even though the only evidence against me is a "failed" polygraph.
if you guys have any suggestions please help me. currently another investigation has been launched into this matter by my department.
Quote from: pailryder on Jun 09, 2008, 09:10 AMAbout 4 years ago, i was accused of a crime. I'm am currently a police officer. i was asked by the investigators to take a polygraph. Ignorance in my friend, I thought that the Poly would free me from suspicion! Boy was I wrong!
I didn't do any research on the polygraph prior to me taking my test. I did not know what a CQT was. My polygrapher accused me of being deceptive on the test. There was no evidence found, because I didn't commit the crime in question. For the past four years this poly has haunted me. I did not lie on the test, and I have been accused for four years even though the only evidence against me is a "failed" polygraph.
if you guys have any suggestions please help me. currently another investigation has been launched into this matter by my department.
First off, if you are the subject of a criminal investigation by your police department, surely you have collective bargaining rights which require the department to show you the evidence against you. YOu also should have legal representation.
After you gain this material, the file a legal claim against your city/county for malicious prosecution. Nothing will end a witch hunting investigation faster than having to answer to a tort claim.
In the meantime, do you research, and when you understand the polygraph process, hire your own polygrapher to examine you, and then at some opportune time, spring the passed polygraph on them.
Don't take any crap from them.
Quote from: pailryder on Jun 09, 2008, 09:10 AMAbout 4 years ago, i was accused of a crime. I'm am currently a police officer. i was asked by the investigators to take a polygraph. Ignorance in my friend, I thought that the Poly would free me from suspicion! Boy was I wrong!
I didn't do any research on the polygraph prior to me taking my test. I did not know what a CQT was. My polygrapher accused me of being deceptive on the test. There was no evidence found, because I didn't commit the crime in question. For the past four years this poly has haunted me. I did not lie on the test, and I have been accused for four years even though the only evidence against me is a "failed" polygraph.
if you guys have any suggestions please help me. currently another investigation has been launched into this matter by my department.
I would strongly second nopolycop's recommendation that you obtain legal representation. But I do not think that taking a polygraph to "prove your innocence" is a good idea. By doing so, you'd be taking the position that polygraph results really
do have probative value. And the investigators' response might be, "Okay, well come sit down for a re-test with
our polygrapher."
I think the better approach is to document to all concerned the fact that polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis, and that the results are not evidence of guilt or innocence. The following articles may be helpful for this purpose:
https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-018.shtml
https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-028.shtml
https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-053.shtml
In addition,
The Lie Behind the Lie Detector provides a thorough debunking of polygraphy:
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
Honest,
Don't fret. Pardon the sarcasm, but one of our board polygraphers will be along shortly to advise you. You see, the job of the polygrapher is to help you get through the process. The test is 86% accurate, but, as one polygrapher has posted here, there are hundreds of uncontrollable factors. So it is hard to explain why you failed the test yet told the truth.
One other possibility is that you are lying. Which is to say, you did not tell the truth, and you are just coming here to join the "pity party" with the other few malcontents.
Trust the polygraphers, false positives do happen but they are very rare. Maybe you should go back to your department polygrapher, only this time, really get things off your chest. You'd be surprised at how helpful they can be. :-X
Just kidding. Take GM and nopolycop's advise above.
Now you know first hand what a crock of shit the polygraph is.
TC
I am a law enforcement officer. Last year I was accused of "misleading" the Internal Affairs Officer on a complaint submitted by a former neighbor. The neighbor was upset I won a judgment against her in small claims. I was asked to take a polygraph. I agreed as long as I received something in writing clearing me of the charge(s) once I passed the test. My division chief called me on a Tuesday and told me the exam had been set up for Wednesday. I asked: "What are the issues? and "What about the memo clearing me of the matter?" The response: "I don't know or care to know what the issues are. I don't know anything about any memo." Well, my answer was thanks, but no thanks.
Once I found out what the specific issues were, through my attorney we hired a polygraph examiner that works throughout the state under contract with county and state LE agencies. The examiner reviewed the facts of the case and developed the questions. I took the exam and passed. During an oral reply to the charges, we submitted the results. The agency declined to accept the results. We verified that the test I was given was the same type provided by the agency examiner.
We elevated the matter to a formal administrative hearing. The administrative officer accepted the results w/o question.
I'm now waiting for the results of the hearing, but I'm confused why the agency promotes polygraph as an investigative tool, yet dismisses the results when it doesn't go their way.
QuoteI'm now waiting for the results of the hearing, but I'm confused why the agency promotes polygraph as an investigative tool, yet dismisses the results when it doesn't go their way.
Because, contrary to popular belief, the polygraph is not really a test, it is an interview/interrogation disguised as a test. Of course, your agency is going to trust IT'S interrogators more than ones you hire. And it is an interrogation they can conduct without those pesky defense attorneys present.
Polygraphs results are like statistics. You can use them to support whatever position you want to posit. Try doing that with DNA results!
They won't admit it, but the polygraph is very subjective.
Just as an update...
I still have not received anything formal saying I "failed" the poly. In the meantime I had a drug screen done at my own expense, so that I could send it in with my response to the fail letter. Of course, I do not have the fail letter. Any suggestions?
Thanks
I wouldn't do anything yet. If you haven't received a rejection letter yet you may still get hired. don't worry about it until there is something to worry about. You usually have the option of a second polygraph anyway and I assume at this point you have read up and have no worries about failing a second one.
Found this cite actually researching tourettes syndrome's affect on the accuracy of a polygraph -- I know, seems like a ridiculous issue.
At any rate, I wanted to remind you there is a reason why the military courts will not allow polygraphs in evidence. I have been both a military prosecutor and defense counsel, and the only reason polygraphs are used is to get the subject to give a "post-polygraph" interview where they usually admit to the crime. As defense counsel, I was frustrated that I could not introduce evidence of the failed polygraph as evidence of a false confession -- the answer to the question as to why an innocent man would confess to a crime he did not commit -- because nobody would believe him anyway and the Speical Agent told him that everyone would go easier on him if he confessed.
Oh well, that is a different issue than the employment polys. I have had individuals pass the polygraph, and then admit to the crime later (after finding DNA at the scene), and had folks fail the poly who had ROCK SOLID alibis.
For me, its all about the interview.
Jag
QuoteI have been both a military prosecutor and defense counsel, and the only reason polygraphs are used is to get the subject to give a "post-polygraph" interview where they usually admit to the crime.
Like I've said before, the polygraph is NOT A TEST. It is an interrogation DISGUISED AS A TEST!
The purpose of a preemployment polygraph is to see what the polygrapher can "GET THE PERSON TO SAY". This is why the most common polygrapher refrain on this board (before we scared them all off with the facts) is that people have trouble on the test because they "don't get it all off their chest!".
Do you advise defense clients to "get it all off their chests" when they are being questioned? I doubt it.
Of course, polygraphers here have come up with some pretty creative reasons why lawyers should NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE PRESENT DURING A POLYGRAPH!
TC
Dear Readers,
I have to reflect upon my polygraph experiences, life experiences, and over 24 years of Federal Employment (eight military, fifteen civil service).
T.M. Cullen sums it it up in a nutshell. The polygraph person has no idea what you are thinking. He has no idea who you are. He has no idea what you have done. He has no idea what you have gone through in life. The only thing he has to work with is what you tell him and what you have written on paper.
It is an interrogation technique, plain and simple. You must believe in it in order for the technique to work. Show no respect for the polygraph and they automatically dismiss you because they know that they can elicit no responses from you that get them a "gold star" and "another proven failure" notched on their evaluation. They kind of remind me of a used car salesman. They will do anything to get a car off the lot, say anything, stretch the truth into a lie as necessary to meet their "quota".
The polygraph examiner is not rewarded for passing a person as much as they are rewarded for finding a reason to fail a person. This in itself is a severe conflict of interest. This is a fact. Polygraph examiners in pre-screening exams are evaluated on the percentage that they can get "written collaboration" of an examinee's guilt.
As I have been told so many times, "a security clearance is a privilage, not a right". Since when has asking to be given a "Fair Chance" a privilage in this nation? An applicant does not look for special favors. All applicants deserve a fair and equal chance.
Regards.
Dear NoLongerBelieve,
I understand your situation and I also share the same frustrating feelings as you do.
I am an applicant too for the FBI and Secret Service. I took the FBI polygraph twice and both times, they failed me, "the results not within parameters" both times the same message, but they never could accuse me of any wrongdoings in the letter of rejection.
After each polygraph interrogation, I felt my rights was violated and they still will not offer me a job, even a contract.
I am truly frustrated with the FBI. This is how you fight for your rights.
I've read the antipolygraph.org manual that explains what to do after you were told you failed.
Here is the link to the antipolygraph manual, look for the "Grievance Procedure".
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
And you may also try writing to the following senators:
https://antipolygraph.org/get.shtml
I will be doing the same for myself.
We all must stick together and we must all complain. If there is enough of us to complain to our Senators and Congress, they may listen and may change the law to outlaw polygraph again
QuoteIf there is enough of us to complain to our Senators and Congress, they may listen and may change the law to outlaw polygraph again
Letters to congress? LOL Most congress persons use such letters to wipe their asses with.
Politicians don't give a "hoot in hyanissport" about the polygraph!
Remember the NAS report was done at the REQUEST of congress, which they ended up ignoring.
They don't have to take it, why should they care?
What is needed is to EMBARRASS them about it, if and when some crisis emerges which exposes the ill effects the process is having on national security.
In this respect, winning over the media would be helpful.
TC
TC asked if I would permit my client to get things off his chest at a poly -- in a single word -- NO.
TC asked if I would permit my client to get things off his chest at a poly -- in a single word -- NO.
98% of the time, I advise clients to refuse polys. The other 2%, I will advise my client to take an "exculpatory poly" where the government agrees to drop the charges if my client passes. In that case, I advise my client of how polys work, the purpose of the control questions, and to not lie to the control question, regardless of how embarrasing or silly they may seem. Additionally, I insist on my presence at the poly. Finally, I prohibit any post poly interview. Only in that case will a poly possibly benefit my client.
Otherwise they are tools for confessions, nothing more.
Jag
QuoteOtherwise they are tools for confessions, nothing more.
And in many cases, FALSE confessions!
TC
Quote from: 0E0503440 on Jul 10, 2008, 01:32 PMTC asked if I would permit my client to get things off his chest at a poly -- in a single word -- NO.
98% of the time, I advise clients to refuse polys. The other 2%, I will advise my client to take an "exculpatory poly" where the government agrees to drop the charges if my client passes. In that case, I advise my client of how polys work, the purpose of the control questions, and to not lie to the control question, regardless of how embarrasing or silly they may seem. Additionally, I insist on my presence at the poly. Finally, I prohibit any post poly interview. Only in that case will a poly possibly benefit my client.
Otherwise they are tools for confessions, nothing more.
Jag
Jag,
Your 2% clients would probably do a lot better if they actually lied to the Control Questions. The CQ is where the examinee has a chance to produce a strong reaction (tracing) to match or better that of the Relevant Questions. By owning up to the worst things you did earlier in life, you not only give the examiner ammo to shoot you with and paint you as a perp, but your admissions lead to weakened CQ reactions ( low scoring tracings) - so best advice is : Dont own up to any earlier in life misconduct - unless of course you're an ex-con with a history of convictions - then admit those only and nothing else.
OMG - the same exact thing happened to me. About Drugs. Now the only thing that happened was that I have smoked pot. NOW that was 22 years ago. Mind you. But they asked me how many times I did it? OTHER than that I would have been the perfect candidate for the position they were looking for. I felt like such a fool. I had told everyone that I had this job. I was so excited. As a single mom, it was nice to FINALLY get my foot in the door for the federal government to help me make more money and be able to support my family.
I have the concern about being blackballed for any further federal jobs? DOES that happen.
Leah,
I'm not sure to which post in this thread you are replying, but assuming that your polygraph was with the FBI, you now have a permanent file on record. If you apply for any federal job that requires a National Agency Check, the fact that you have an FBI file will show up, and the file will no doubt be requested and reviewed. At that point your admitted past drug use and/or polygraph results may become an impediment.
The FBI one...thank you for that information. I wrote a letter of protest, that hopefully will be included in that file. I also meant that I did the pot smoking 22 years ago, and just had the fbi polygraph in 2007. I have not used any illicit or illegal drug since then and that was the only one that I have ever done...so you know...
Thanks for your response. Maybe they will put that protest in the system.
I was so devasted when it happened...just because it is literally funny for that to be the reason for me, when he came back and said you had a questionable response on drugs, I started laughing thinking that's impossible, the ONLY thing that could have happened was that I was not comfortable with the amount of times I did it, I did NOT know the exact number, even tho' he told me to get comfortable with a number that I pulled out of my head (in otherwords lie) my mind would not get comfortable because in fact I did not know the number of times I had done it. It would like asking me how many times I blinked at 2:00 p.m. September 26, 1984??? I don't know exactly, but I can tell you I did it. I told my friends and family and they all thought I was joking and could not believe it....First of all because they all know that I don't lie, and most of all dont' do drugs, but unfortunately I was not....but I am a firm believer in what is meant to be will be meant to be....soooo
This website was literally a godsend because until I read this I felt ashamed and embarassed that that would have happened...at least its not just me.
Quote from: PhilGainey on Sep 24, 2008, 12:53 AMLeah,
I'm not sure to which post in this thread you are replying, but assuming that your polygraph was with the FBI, you now have a permanent file on record. If you apply for any federal job that requires a National Agency Check, the fact that you have an FBI file will show up, and the file will no doubt be requested and reviewed. At that point your admitted past drug use and/or polygraph results may become an impediment.
i had this terrible experience about taking a lie detector test that really end -up my marriage with my husband. My husband is very paranoid and have this terrible jealousy issues. I worked two job and only had three to four of sleep eveyday. I did try everything to prove to my husband that what his thinking about me that i am a liar and a cheater is all wrong. I actually challenge him to do this lie detector test and I have all my confidence that i am not gonna fail..guess what? i failed the first time and the examiner told us that is very usual to the first time to fail due of emotional feeling..not only that when he evaluate the grade he did it manually and he said that his computer is not cooperating. We both unhappy aboout it, so the examiner encourage us to retest it again with no any charge..Honestly, i feel like i don't wanna go back there and do it again because i am worried that i might failed again..and knowing that my husband will make more believe about the computer result than me...well here we are and i am very nervous..we told to the examiner that me and my husband had a little talk and agreed for something before i get the re-test, and he made some correction regarding the questions that my husband wants to here again..the second time, i failed again and i know deep in my heart that i am being faithful to my husband from the beginning of our relationship until we got married. Now my husband is totally convince that i am a cheater because he relied on the polygraph result .I felt so much devastated..insult and humiliated plus the examiner insist that i am hiding something and i am the only one who knew about what the truth is..the last word i said to my husband..i wish there is a miracle happen to prove it to him that i am telling him the truth.. but i think our marriage is over and right now i felt so depress and cheated but i don't know what else to do. That night after we went to the test we have a huge argument where i end up calling a police are because my husband threatend me.. my husband told me to leave his house and don't come back anymore...this is a veryhurtful experience that i ever have in my life.. i wish all this examiner could be honest and truthful about the job that they've been doing, it's not the cost of what they earned that their betting, it's the cost of anyone's life and relationship that they've been destroying.
Pinay,
Sounds like you need a good divorce attorney. If your husband is willing to let his marriage ride on the results of a polygraph test, he must not be very educated, or well informed.
The polygraph is NOT accurate or reliable. That is the consensus of the scientific community. There is ample information on this website to substantiate the above statement.
Good luck!
Pinay,
I am saddened, but not surprised, by your unfortunate experience with the polygraph. Television shows such as Dr. Phil, Maury Povich, and Fox's Moment of Truth have disserved the viewing public by popularizing the notion that lie detector testing can provide resolution to questions over marital fidelity.
In fact, polygraph testing has no scientific basis (https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf) and is inherently biased against the truthful. False positive results (when a truthful person is wrongly called deceptive) are quite common, and many relationships have been destroyed in part due to misplaced reliance on this pseudoscientific procedure. See, for example, the personal statement of Gary Smith (https://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-028.pdf) (PDF) and the post, Wife left me after polygraph told I cheated (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=2031.msg14750#msg14750).
For a thorough debunking of polygraphy that you can share with your husband, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector:
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
It's worth pointing out that had you in fact been an unfaithful spouse intent on fooling the lie detector, you could have readily learned how to do so. (It's explained in Chapter 4 of the book.)
Sadly, I must agree with T.M. Cullen's suggestion that you consult a good divorce attorney. If you don't know one in your area, Martindale's Lawyer Locator service, which allows one to search by location and area of expertise, may be helpful:
http://www.martindale.com