A lawsuit filed in January 2008 alleges the existence of an illegal referral scheme whereby sex offender therapists and probation officers of the Community Supervision and Corrections Department of Tarrant County, Texas (which includes Fort Worth) directed sex offenders subject to mandatory polygraph screening to go to specific polygraph examiners, rather than allowing them to go to any appropriately credentialed polygraph examiner.
The case is
McCarthy v. Moore, et al., Case No. 048-228282-08 filed in Tarrant County, Texas District Court. AntiPolygraph.org has obtained copies of the original and amended petitions for declaratory relief, which may be downloaded, respectively, here:
https://antipolygraph.org/litigation/mccarthy/mccarthy-v-moore-original-petition.pdf
https://antipolygraph.org/litigation/mccarthy/mccarthy-v-moore-second-amended-petition.pdf
The key allegations of the case are set forth in Part IV of the Second Amended Petition for Declaratory Relief, the relevant portion of which is cited below:
QuoteIV. FACTS
All attached exhibits in the recitation of facts along with Plaintiff's Supporting Affidavit, are attached to Plaintiff's First Original Petition for Declaratory Judgment; Application for Temporary Restraining Order; and Application for Injunction and are incorporated fully herein, along with all of the attached exhibits and recitation of facts in Plaintiff's First Amended Petition for Declaratory Judgment and Application for Expedited Injunction.
On or about August 20, 2007, Fenian began operating in Tarrant County, Texas. On or about November 8, 2007, Fenian was placed on the approved list of polygraph examiners in Tarrant County, Texas. See Attached Exhibit A. The top of the document, which every which every [sic] sex offender on deferred adjudication or probation is supposed to receive, clearly states that the probationer has the choice of who he or she wants to perform the polygraph examination.
Since November 8, 2007, Fenian has only performed three polygraph examinations for sex offenders on probation or deferred adjudication. One was a Tarrant County probationer and the other two were probationers from Dallas County. On or about December 13, 2007, a polygraph examination was scheduled by Doug ______. This polygraph examination was to be performed by Fenian on December 29, 2007. On Friday, December 28, 2007, Doug ______ called Fenian and canceled the appointment. When Fenian asked Doug ______ why he cancelled the appointment, Fenian was told that Deborah Moore, Doug ______'s therapist told him that he had to have a polygraph examination performed by Wood or Behavioral as they were the only two polygraph examiners that she allowed her patient's [sic] to use. If Doug ______ did not have his polygraph examination performed by Wood or Behavioral, then Ms. Moore would drop him as a client.
On or about December 28, 2007 a message was left with Ms. Moore's office, which was not returned until January 3, 2008. Ms. Moore admitted that she instructed her patient's [sic] to go to Wood or Behavioral as they were the only two names on her list. She stated that she was not familiar with Fenian and needed to see examples of the types of tests that he ran before she would do business with Fenian.
On or about January 3, 2008, an email was sent to David Kilpatrick, chairperson of the Community Resources Review Committee ("CRRC") with Tarrant County Community Supervision and Corrections Department. He responded that "Yes, the P gets to choose, and both [sic] the treatment provider nor the officer can insist on one over another, period." See Attached Exhibit B.
On or about January 3, 2008, a cease and desist letter was mailed to Deborah Moore, which was received on or about January 4, 2008. See Attached Exhibit C. There was no response to that letter.
On or about January 3, 2008, there was further clarification with David Kilpatrick, wherein he state that "The rule dealing with this in the MOU basically states that one provider (of any kind) cannot refer a probationer to another provider (of any kind) unless this is approved by the officer beforehand." See Attached Exhibit D and Attached Exhibit E.
Prior to the opening of Fenian, Joseph Lawrence McCarthy performed approximately five polygraph examinations per day with Dalhousie Polygraph Services in Richardson, Texas. There are only sixteen polygraph examiners in the Metroplex, including Mr. McCarthy, who are certified to perform polygraph examinations on sex offenders under the Joint Polygraph Committee on Offender Testing ("JPCOT"). With several hundred sex offenders in the Metroplex, it is inconceivable that Fenian would only have one Tarrant County probationer in two months. Meanwhile, Behavioral and Wood are booked solid for sex offender polygraph examinations over a month in advance. This is because the sex offender therapists and probation officers of CSCD in Tarrant County, Texas are diverting business away from Fenian in clear violation of various state and federal laws.
George
While I often disagree with your positions, I grudgingly give the devil his due. You maintain the most informative polygraph related site on the internet. Hands down, slam dunk, bar none.
You have my respect, if not my agreement.
Not all examiners are created equal. This is no conspiracy---IMO---it's a matter where a provider is very happy with their current list of providers---and there is a shorthand and a mutual respect amongst the parties. There are always pools of providers within any municipal system, and you will find that the referrals are not typically handed out willy nilly. Providers---including polygraph examiners----are required to show their worth. This system, also known as a meritocracy, is how things work in any serious business. One cannot just get out of polygraph school, and expect a windfall of highly critical work to be bestowed on them, simply because they have a green light from license boards to practice. It took me 2 years before any provider would let me run even one test on their clients. I was very incredulous at the time. I now know why providers are so hesitant to allow just anyone test their clients. I wasn't ready, and I suspect the plantiff in this suit isn't quite ready yet either. I dunno.
I realize such a system is tough. How do you gain experience and wisdom in a practice, when the status quo are so skittish to hand over potentially dangerous criminals to you based on a provider number? You sweep the floors at the big boy providers, make them coffee, and prove your worth one solitary test at a time. You don't sue because you feel entitled to a caseload. If you don't get the numbers of clients, and the role as valuable team member, you go to a county where there is a better need. A city such as Dallas (and Chicago too) is a place where you can't swing a dead cat around without hitting a polygraph examiner needing a caseloadand consequently, it is a tough place for an upstart.
This is no conspiracy. This is meritocracy.
Eric,
If the facts set forth in the plaintiff's petition are indeed facts, then treatment providers have no legal basis for dictating to which polygraph operators sex offenders under their supervision go. I think a prima facie case has been made that the arrangement between Deborah Moore on the one hand, and Richard Wood & Associates and Behavioral Measures & Forensic Services Southwest, Inc. on the other, was improper, if not illegal. Of course, it is possible that there are other relevant facts of which we remain unaware, but I don't think the allegations in this lawsuit should be dismissed with a wave of the hand. Certainly not by anyone who professes to be "dedicated to truth" (American Polygraph Association motto).
When an examiner runs a pcsot test for a containment team, and for whatever reason the team is disatisfied with the product (report) or maybe a lack of returned phone calls, lack of pretest consultation (call to therapist for team concerns) or any number of work result that is sub par, the treatment provider and/or probation team will ask (see insist) that that examiner not get so much work. The problem with that is proper channels either are not followed, or simply do not exist to file a complaint against an examiner within those municipalities that can put a hold on referals to the lackluster examiner (see chart roller.) This work is much like civil engineering re bridge building. Some "approved" contractors are better at designing and constructing bridges than other firms. This doesn;t suggest that the former firm CAN NOT complete a bridge, it is just that the system as a whole prefer a better product-----and despite the fact that there is a prima facie case-----don't discount that when it comes to helping to protect kids, the judge will not necessarily rule that referrals are like mere schoolhouse window washing contracts---to be divided amongst anyone with a squeegy. I do believe that the plaintiff deserves some referrals if he has not been able to show worth beyond a provider card. Expect a change in policy, and perhaps a fine to the defendants. The judge will find out that not all examiners are created equally IMO.
Quote from: George_Maschke on Mar 24, 2008, 09:40 AMWhen an examiner runs a pcsot test for a containment team, and for whatever reason the team is disatisfied with the product (report) or maybe a lack of returned phone calls, lack of pretest consultation (call to therapist for team concerns) or any number of work result that is sub par, the treatment provider and/or probation team will ask (see insist) that that examiner not get so much work. The problem with that is proper channels either are not followed, or simply do not exist to file a complaint against an examiner within those municipalities that can put a hold on referals to the lackluster examiner (see chart roller.) This work is much like civil engineering re bridge building. Some "approved" contractors are better at designing and constructing bridges than other firms. This doesn;t suggest that the former firm CAN NOT complete a bridge, it is just that the system as a whole prefer a better product-----and despite the fact that there is a prima facie case-----don't discount that when it comes to helping to protect kids, the judge will not necessarily rule that referrals are like mere schoolhouse window washing contracts---to be divided amongst anyone with a squeegy. I do believe that the plaintiff deserves some referrals if he has not been able to show worth beyond a provider card. Expect a change in policy, and perhaps a fine to the defendants. The judge will find out that not all examiners are created equally IMO.
When I look at the exhibits, it seems the examiner has a point. Looks like he was told one thing and experienced another.
Sounds to me that he was under the impression (and rightfully so) that this was a county that he could "prove his worth", and when he found out he was sold a load of crap he took a stand.
Looking at the petition, I see this is not someone fresh out of school with a few years under his belt. From what I am reading, this man is no unknown or upstart base on who he has tested for in the past.
Tarrant County is known for being a "Closed Market" and it seems that this guy is the only one with balls enough to stand up for himself. He's not the only examiner in the area to see the good ole boyism in the market. But, he is the only one to stand up and point it out.
All he has to do is get a few therapists and examiners on his side and game over. From what I see on another discussion in this board, one of the defendants have more to worry about than this action. Wow!
One question I have to ask; if most of the offenders are going to one or two providers, how long are they waiting to take polygraphs? I ask this because if an examiner can only do 5 tests per day, then that is 25 slots per week per examiner. Most polygraph firms do law-enforcement/fire fighter pre-employment, attorney polygraphs, EEPA, and infidelity. If one were to play the numbers game, it's easy to see that there is more than likely as waiting period that may be unacceptable to the general public in regards to these potentially dangerous criminals having more time to possibly re-offend.
Sounds to me like the examiners that are so concerned for the community safety care more for their wallets. This also brings up the point of possible kickbacks.
Sounds like this action will answer a lot of questions. I know I'll be watching.
wolfie said;
QuoteSounds to me that he was under the impression (and rightfully so) that this was a county that he could "prove his worth", and when he found out he was sold a load of crap he took a stand.
Looking at the petition, I see this is not someone fresh out of school with a few years under his belt. From what I am reading, this man is no unknown or upstart base on who he has tested for in the past.
Tarrant County is known for being a "Closed Market" and it seems that this guy is the only one with balls enough to stand up for himself. He's not the only examiner in the area to see the good ole boyism in the market. But, he is the only one to stand up and point it out.
All he has to do is get a few therapists and examiners on his side and game over. From what I see on another discussion in this board, one of the defendants have more to worry about than this action. Wow!
Hey wolfie,
sounds like you have a dog in that fight. Your timing is impeccable.
Quote from: George_Maschke on Mar 24, 2008, 03:35 PM
wolfie said;
QuoteSounds to me that he was under the impression (and rightfully so) that this was a county that he could "prove his worth", and when he found out he was sold a load of crap he took a stand.
Looking at the petition, I see this is not someone fresh out of school with a few years under his belt. From what I am reading, this man is no unknown or upstart base on who he has tested for in the past.
Tarrant County is known for being a "Closed Market" and it seems that this guy is the only one with balls enough to stand up for himself. He's not the only examiner in the area to see the good ole boyism in the market. But, he is the only one to stand up and point it out.
All he has to do is get a few therapists and examiners on his side and game over. From what I see on another discussion in this board, one of the defendants have more to worry about than this action. Wow!
Hey wolfie,
sounds like you have a dog in that fight. Your timing is impeccable.
No personal dog in the fight, and timing has nothing to do with it. I read the petition and feel, in my opinion that it does have merit.
I think everyone has a dog in this fight that is in favor of a free market economy. I can understand why therapists like you would like to control as many aspects of you offenders lives as possible. But the use of only a few polygraph examiners creates an environment of the polygraph examiner giving you the opinion you want rather than the opinion based on the chart tracings. No one likes giving customers bad news, especially customers that send thousands of dollars a year in business. Don't say that people don't think like this, you know they do.
Any examiner that has taken the JPCOT course and passed is qualified to run these tests in the state of Texas. Debra Moore should know better because she helped write the guidelines as well as others listed as defendants. A man saw an injustice, stood up for himself, and may have uncovered a bit more that expected.
As persons in the "containment approach", we should avoid even the appearance of impropriety. The "containment approach", that is a joke too. Probation never co-operates with the polygraph examiner. The examiner is lucky to get probation on the phone or get documents faxed from probation. In many cases the therapists arrogance and ego make some things darn near impassable to get anything done. In almost every case both the therapists and the probation offices think they themselves are polygraph examiners, advising and educating offenders on something which they themselves have little to no training in. Which is, by the way, unethical.
The examiners and therapists brought this on themselves. Looks to me that they have kicked this sleeping dragon and now they are running scared. The way it looks, it may be 1988 all over again.
QuoteI can understand why therapists like you would like to control as many aspects of you offenders lives as possible.
I am not a therapist.
— But the use of only a few polygraph examiners creates an environment of the polygraph examiner giving you the opinion you want rather than the opinion based on the chart tracingsWhat? Rubbish. Using too few examiners has disadvantages, but claiming such conspiracy is a stretch. That kind of thinking will get you a nickname.
QuoteNo one likes giving customers bad news, especially customers that send thousands of dollars a year in business. Don't say that people don't think like this, you know they do.
You're in the business of giving bad news brother. If the offender fails a test--bad news. If he passes his test, than he likely does so by giving admissions, which often times are bad news. The test costs money---a rare commodity for probationers who are "fringed" by society----bad news. Inform your officers and therapists that polygraph isn't 100% accurate and shouldn't be the end all risk assessment----bad news, no panaceas yet exist. Polygraph testing does not pay very well---contrary to those around here that think otherwise----bad news.
We are in the business of giving bad news in pcsot. It's a caustic line of work.
QuoteAny examiner that has taken the JPCOT course and passed is qualified to run these tests in the state of Texas.
Please. Students are so green out of polygraph school --yes, even pcsot--- that without good sheparding and internship, most are dangerous.
QuoteThe "containment approach", that is a joke too. Probation never co-operates with the polygraph examiner. The examiner is lucky to get probation on the phone or get documents faxed from probation. In many cases the therapists arrogance and ego make some things darn near impassable to get anything done. In almost every case both the therapists and the probation offices think they themselves are polygraph examiners, advising and educating offenders on something which they themselves have little to no training in. Which is, by the way, unethical.
Readers, unfortunately The wolf is experiencing a rather uncharacteristic discombobulated containment system. He wrote rather broadly that such maladies are the norm across the board. Nonsense. In many states containment team members have each others' home and cell numbers for emergencies---and thanks to the web---even web conferances. Some containment modalities in some states are rather new, clumsy, and suffering from a lack of protocol, while many others are tight, respecting each others' contributions, and have a well placed knowledge of their own personal limitations regarding the duties and abilities of the task ahead. It is this paragraph Wolf wrote that compelled me to answer more than any other I have seen in recent days.
QuoteLooks to me that they have kicked this sleeping dragon and now they are running scared. The way it looks, it may be 1988 all over again.
You sound as if you have no business experience whatsoever. Lawsuits in large metro area contractors abound. Regardless of who is right or wrong re the suit, such complaints are albeit, no laughing matter, but also very standard. Ever work in the road construction contractor business or civil engineering biz wolf? Sheesh, those guys sue each other every month with complaints and contract tuning. You need to get out more.
EPPA has nothing to do with a couple'a firms fighting over 80-100k of business. After taxes and expenses, that is pretty small coin.
This is not a new battle---see the numerous battles over referrals in the court ordered alcoholic treatment business----or even tow truck contracts.
Yes, this is Joe McCarthy. I have been watching this discussion board ever since the suit became "public".
I looked over the discussions and considered every point. Some are good and others are just plain piss poor. While thinking, pontificating, and doing deep thought brain thingies in my mind on the events for the past few months, I realized that the answer was right in front of me. POLYGRAPH.
This is a case about polygraph examiners and therapists that believe in polygraph. Probation relies on polygraph as a tool it to put people back in prison. Let's note that some of the people belong there. Clearly, they do not have a problem using polygraph as a tool in their arsenal. So here is what I was thinking.
I said to myself "Self, what if everyone stipulated to a polygraph exam? Everyone, the examiners, the therapists, even the two probation officials. Have an INDEPENDENT polygraph examiner come in and polygraph each and every person on the front captioning of the lawsuit except for the lawyers. We don't want to blow up the instrument. I already caught them in a few lies. I will let them guess which ones.
The tests will consist of relevant questions agreed upon by all examiners, therapists, probation officials, and their lawyers. All parties will be identified by number chosen by lot. A representative of the Court and the INDEPENDENT examiner will be the only two people who will know the true identity of each number.
The test format will have to be an R&I because if there is anyone that could get around a control question test, it's a polygraph examiner. Because therapists and the probation officials can be coached, they will be given an R&I as well. After the charts are collected, they will be scored numerically through ROSS and globally by the administrating examiner. Copies will be made of all charts with the identifying information redacted from them and new identifier will be put on the charts to ensure that this next step will be one hundred fair. The only person who will know the true identity of each chart will be the Judge and his representative. All the newly identified charts will be given to each polygraph examiner involved in this action and one additional examiner who is not involved with this action, who is not the original examiner, and who is no one that the original examiner may know.
The charts will be blind quality controlled by each polygraph examiner through ROSS and globally. The score sheet will then be attached to each chart with a notarized affidavit. For all you guys that do not know what ROSS is, I will be more than happy to educate you. The scored charts along with the affidavit and score sheets will be sent back to the court where a court officer will then properly identify each chart. The identities of each chart will then be released to the lawyers and their clients. Inconclusives will count as a DI and obvious miscoring will leave the examiner open to perjury, contempt of court, and any sanction available.
If they are telling the truth that there is no intentional exclusive agreements to manipulate the market, offering and/or receiving of kickbacks, favoritism, creating monopolies, or intentionally pushing of anyone out of this market by unlawful restriction of trade, then they should not have a problem with taking the exam that is relied on so heavily by all the parties involved. I know that I have no problem with it because I have done nothing in bad faith.
It should be interesting to see how many step forward.
The reason why I am posting this on Antipolygraph.org is because I believe that this will be the only forum in which I can be heard. On top of that, I can rest assured that the responses will be watched very closely by all.
I will try to keep the people on this board updated on the responses received or the sounds of deafening silence that I hear. I will also be setting up a blog so regular updates can be posted along with all documents that are of public record.
Maybe this will put the issue to rest. Maybe it will aggravate the issue. No matter what it does, it will cause discussion and provoke thought about the polygraph industry and if the people in the industry are truly "dedicated to the truth".
I have thrown down the gauntlet. I have called you all out. I will be counting the day for a response and will post the response of each person either here or on the blog.
The fax is on people.
Now in the eloquent words of Mick Foley
"Have a nice day! :)"
Joe McCarthy
QuoteThis is a case about polygraph examiners and therapists that believe in polygraph.
Mr. polygrapher,
Thanks for clarifying the fact that the polygraph mainly boils down to belief, rather than science.
Who are these "therapists"? Are they licensed psychologists/psychiatrists?
TC
Joe: Two comments/questions regarding your comments quoted below:
First one, are you admitting here on anti-polygraph.org" that a polygraph test can be manipulated?
Secondly, I predict "0" polygraph examiners will take you up on your offer. Afterall, they know the "truth."
Quote from: George_Maschke on Apr 19, 2008, 08:27 PM
The test format will have to be an R&I because if there is anyone that could get around a control question test, it's a polygraph examiner.
It should be interesting to see how many step forward.
Quote from: George_Maschke on Apr 19, 2008, 11:54 PMQuoteThis is a case about polygraph examiners and therapists that believe in polygraph.
Mr. polygrapher,
Thanks for clarifying the fact that the polygraph mainly boils down to belief, rather than science.
Who are these "therapists"? Are they licensed psychologists/psychiatrists?
TC
Look at the defense list. The answer to your question is just that simple. I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't want to waste time listing names alredy listed.
What "defense list"? Can you please post a link with this list?
TC
TC,
Look at the documents linked in the first post in this message thread.
Quote from: George_Maschke on Apr 20, 2008, 08:45 AMJoe: Two comments/questions regarding your comments quoted below:
First one, are you admitting here on anti-polygraph.org" that a polygraph test can be manipulated?
Secondly, I predict "0" polygraph examiners will take you up on your offer. Afterall, they know the "truth."
Quote from: George_Maschke on Apr 19, 2008, 08:27 PM
The test format will have to be an R&I because if there is anyone that could get around a control question test, it's a polygraph examiner.
It should be interesting to see how many step forward.
Mr. Polycop
OK. Sorry that it took so long to answer your question. I wanted to be sure that everything was worded in such a way that I get my point across while retaining the witty sarcasm that everyone in my life finds so lovable and cute.
I am not here to be anti polygraph or pro polygraph. I am here to be pro business, pro free market, and pro holding people to a policy that was clearly in place. I feel that polygraph is a very important tool in regards to convicted sex offender management. Depending on self report has proven to be useless. This is also common sense. Denial is a big factor in their crimes and in their thinking errors. I am not going to get into long and useless arguments on this because nothing will get solved. It will only end in everyone not having or wanting to agree to disagree.
I will not engage in conversations that will not solve the issue being argued. I will say that I respect your feelings and understand the anger in regards to the polygraph industry. I hope you will understand how I feel about what I do and my anger that I am being blocked from making a living because I give a fair and independent polygraph. I offer my services at an affordable price and treat my examinees like a people rather than a dollar sign.
I work for myself. I do not work for probation or the therapist. I have no dog in the fight regarding that examinee's future. What I do have is an ethical and moral obligation to be fair both in my treatment of the examinee and my desire to make a positive difference in my community. If someone is going to fail a polygraph, they will do that all by themselves. They do not need my help to fail a polygraph. It is my job to help the truthful person PASS their polygraph. I do not set untruthful people up for failure. I set the truthful person up for success. I feel that is why some people do not want me around. I do not give results that will keep one therapist over the other using my services. My results are given based on my chats, not a gut feeling. I do not run "utility tests". I run fair tests.
This brings me to address one of your issues. Any child knows that physiological changes can occur at will the first time any child holds their breath and mommy and daddy freak out because "Oh my God, their face is turning red or blue." The child learns that they can manipulate mommy or daddy by making their face change color by holding their breath. Wow this is genius. Maybe that is the answer for our leaders in Washington DC. Who ever can hold their breath longest wins. When someone intentionally holds their breath, in most cases, it will look different that someone who has gone into apnea naturally. There is normal physiology and abnormal physiology. In most cases what is abnormal will noticeably stand out.
Am I saying that it is impossible to beat a polygraph by intentionally changing physiology at one moment or the other? To say that would just show me to be foolish.
Because I am not that, I will say that is possible. It is obvious fact that any test can be beat from a drug test to the SAT. Although the enemy of my enemy is my friend, this does not mean I am going to be in lockstep with the anti-polygraph rank and file. Therefore, I will expand on my observation. In my opinion, while it is possible to beat a polygraph, it is not probable in the vast majority of cases.
Most people do not have an understanding of the psycho physiological workings of the body when in a fearful state. Most people do not have an understanding of the testing formats used along with the parameters of said format. Lastly, very, very few people have a polygraph instrument which can be used to practice what one has learned. It has been my experience that most that try to beat a test make one out of two mistakes.
1. They try too hard and make their attempts obvious.
2. They do not try hard enough, making their efforts not only fruitless.
Their efforts are self delusional in that they are somehow smarter than the examiner that reviewed the same book you have and understands the book better.
The rest of the people are really that smart and that good. Those people will get away with it until they make a mistake. The odds are that they eventually will.
Only a moron would say that polygraph, as a whole, is unbeatable.
I hope that is a clear enough answer for you. But, on that note, tell me of one test that cannot be beat.
Now, because the practice of directing probationers to one or the other polygraph examiner rather than handing a probationer the current approved list and telling them to choose, without any outside influence, I have taken matters into my own hands by letting probationers know that I am here. I am more affordable, independent, properly certified by the State of Texas and JPCOT, fair, and independent. In the beginning, there was nothingness. Then I said "Let there be mail" and behold, direct mailings were sent forth. What happened? Well, the calls are trickling in and people are telling me their stories. The calls and the appointments made with me have threatened four groups in different ways.
Polygraph examiners are threatened because now I am taking money out of their pockets. What pisses them off more I am doing it fairly and ethically by using the capitalism that they have done everything they can to smother.
I am offering probationers a fair test at a fair price in an environment where they at least feel they are getting a fair shot, which they are. If I find out the probationer that I am questioning is doing something that they should not be doing, then I will report them just as any other examiner would to be sure that they are held accountable and responsible. If there is no wrong doings on the probationer's part, than that is that. I collect my fee and off they go to continue working at whatever job they could find, contributing to the economy, and supporting their dependents. If they are living up to their conditions of probation, going to and advancing in therapy, and showing some consistency in their polygraphs, then they get to continue their probation status. Should one get out of line, then it just might be time to review their status.
What the polygraph illuminati do not know, until now, is that I plan to continue lowering my prices until this action is settled. Heck, a month before the trial, I may choose to offer polygraphs below fifty dollars. I wonder how any examinees will come then and see that there is a better choice when needing their polygraph. They will have to find a way to compete with $125.00 or lower until the end of the year or until further notice. I wish them good luck.
I can understand that this will chap the asses of the other examiners in the area, but in the free market, affordably priced packages and free deals are given away all the time to introduce a new product or business. It is called capitalism. Maybe they have heard of it. It is one of the foundations of our country.
The therapists have had, what they feel, is their total authority questioned. Some of these therapists have become accustomed to controlling almost every aspect of a probationer's life. A few examinees have complained about therapists trying to influence religious practices. Normally I would put these complaints into the "whining file." But, over the past few months, too many stories from too many people match.
The therapists have done their best to put themselves forward at polygraph experts by saying that one examiner is somehow better than the other. This would be acceptable if they had formal polygraph training, completed an internship and specialized training in regards to sex offender polygraph testing, and run over 100 sex offender polygraph examinations on examinees that are not under their care as therapists.
The fact is that they do not have that experience. I am willing to bet that they do not know the difference between a Backster Zone and an Army Zone. In many cases, they have never been through a polygraph examination or even watched. Yet they can tell probationers that one examiner is better than another. If the probationer does not go to the examiner of the therapist's choice, the therapists can say that the probationer is not cooperating with the therapist and discharge the probationer from care. This would result in the probationer getting revoked. Even then when the probationer chooses an examiner of their, the therapist, in many cases, has put up road blocks to the examinee to jump just to get a fair and independent polygraph that the probationer has to pay for. Here is an example.
A probationer wanted to take an examination within twenty four to forty eight hours because he had a deadline or he would have his probation revoked. I was able to get him in at any time he wished within that time period. The probationer signed the proper releases the day after the initial phone call to me was made.
Because the therapist is on the defendant's list, my attorney contacted the therapist's attorney to obtain the documentation necessary to perform the examination. The therapist and their attorney took almost a week to get me the proper paperwork to help this examinee meet his deadline, which he missed because the words due diligence don't seem apply to all attorneys.
When I finally received the documentation that I needed, it was almost a week later. I was able to get this probationer in for his examination. While in the pretest, the examinee saw the document that I was reviewing with him. The examinee said that it was not the current document because he did not see the changes that he had made during his last test. Another road block. Not only do I receive a document days after this examinee's deadline, but I was sent that is no longer valid because it was changed during the polygraph before me. Is anyone seeing a pattern here or am I the only one who is not wearing a blindfold? In my opinion, the actions that led up to his polygraph made it difficult to give this man a fair polygraph. The perception that everyone wanted him to fail was clear. His therapist and his lawyer did not make it easy for me to convince this guy otherwise. This is a man that has taken twelve or more polygraphs, failing all but a few. All polygraphs, but two or three, were with one polygraph firm. The two or three other polygraph examinations were with one other examiner.
Another probationer called and chose me because of price. I asked him to sign the proper releases with his therapist and call me to make an appointment. I have yet to hear back from this probationer. I wonder if the therapist convinced the probationer that things would go easier for him if he just went with the program. It would not surprise me. One probationer told me this therapist told his group "You will go the examiners I chose because this is the way probation wants it."
Other therapists have been known to collect money from probationer on top of their therapy fees as a "polygraph fund." When the probationer is ready to take their polygraph, the therapist makes the appointment and pays the examiner out of this "fund", keeping a small piece of as a "pre polygraph interview fee." Probationers were not informed how much was going to the polygraph examiner and how much was going to the therapist. From what I understand, there was no accounting of these funds and if anyone asked for an accounting, they were threatened with dismissal from treatment.
It has also come to my attention that the therapist group with the most probationers is a former probation officer with Tarrant County CSCD and may still have ties within the department. Well, isn't that convenient?
The probation department, which says that they do not refer to one provider over the other, does not refer more probationers to former probation officers that are now therapists than to any of the other therapists. Well, at least not officially, from what they say. Honestly, they are telling the truth. The fact that the former probation officers have the majority of the probationers is only a coincidence. (NOTE THE SARCASM)
Tarrant County CSCD has also made it very clear that they will not tolerate anyone questioning them. Tarrant County CSCD decided to release a new document for therapists and polygraph examiners that will take the place of the current contract that Tarrant County CSCD seems to feel that they can change when the mood fits them. Examiners and therapists are to review, sign, and return it by May 2, 2008 "if you wish to continue providing offender services from CSCD referrals."
This is strange because they insist that they do not refer to one person over the other. But, if you want to continue to receive the referrals that do not really exist, then you will see things their way or not at all. That is what the document that they want to replace the current MOU with basically states. It is our way or the highway. I will try to upload the new document so everyone can see for themselves. This document allows Tarrant County CSCD to put out of business anyone who would disagree with them or tell them that they are wrong. A polygraph examiner better ask the exact questions that Tarrant County CSCD wants asked or Tarrant County CSCD can take the examiner of the approved list, essentially putting that examiner out of business. If the examiner tells Tarrant County CSCD that a probationer is NDI and a probation officer insists that the probationer is not telling the truth, then the polygraph examiner better change that NDI into a DI and call it a "utility test" or the examiner is history. Essentially it gives Tarrant County CSCD the ability to hijack the polygraph room. Additionally, if a therapist uses a polygraph examiner that Tarrant County CSCD does not like, even if the polygraph examiner is on the approved list, then Tarrant County CSCD can tell that therapist to stop using that examiner. If the therapist continues to accept polygraph reports from that examiner, then Tarrant County CSCD will say that the therapist is being uncooperative. By taking that person of their approved list and forbidding them to offer services to probationers from Tarrant County until the therapist is out of business or walks in lockstep with Tarrant County CSCD. Even if Tarrant County CSCD is wrong. Apparently, not only does Tarrant County CSCD feel that they cannot be called to the plate when they break a contract because they have "sovereign immunity." they also feel that they are polygraph examiners and therapists too. I guess they know it all. Why even have a containment approach? Let's just let the probation department handle it all. Or, at the very least, license only the people that will agree with whatever the probation officer or department wants.
Oh, wait, they cannot license people to do anything. Tarrant County CSCD is not a licensing agency with rule making authority. Would everyone like to know what is really scary? You do not even need a license to be a probation officer. In some cases, probation officers can carry a gun as long as they take a class. Here is a person who has total control over another person under their supervision and they do not even have to have any specialized training other than a college diploma.
Police officers and firefighters have to have specialized training, take a physical, submit to psychological assessment, and have a background polygraph examination. Probation officers just have to have a college education and a background check done on them. Am I the only person in Texas to find that a wee bit strange? How do we know that the officers working for probation are not as bad as the people they are supervising? I polygraphed a police applicant once who admitted that he was looking at child porn. It does happen.
You have to have a license to be a security guard, real estate agent, truck driver, nurse, or cut hair. I cannot believe that someone who has total control over another person's life does not have to have a license or be assessed in any manner to ensure that they have the physical or mental abilities to handle such a job. There are no regulations that they have to follow that are public record. There is no criterion that is public information for what would get a probation officer suspended or terminated. There is no licensing fee or occupations tax that has to be paid by them on a yearly basis, like a police officer, lawyer, polygraph examiner, or even a barber. There is not even a code of ethics that is public information on any website that dictates what unacceptable behavior to them is. We are still trying to figure out who these people are answerable to.
Apparently, according to the Texas Attorney Generals Office, CSCD's in the State of Texas are "hybrid forms of government." This shocked me. I did not know that there was a fourth form of government. I am not sure what everyone else learned when they were kids but I was under the understanding that there were three branches of government and they were all separated to act with checks and balances. There was a legistative, executive, and judicial branch of government. I guess Congress did not get the memo that there was a fourth form of government, according to Texas Assistant Attorney General David Harris.
This brings me to the Texas Attorney Generals Office. Yes I am going there. Let's see if anyone has the sand to stop my constitutional right to free speech. I filed an application for temporary injunction to block this new document that Tarrant County CSCD wants to replace the current MOU with from taking effect. The Attorney General's office is trying to block this hearing until after May 2 so the new document can become effective. He has also threatened me with sanctions for filing a document that I feel is unfair to commerce, fair trade, good faith, small business, and the people of Texas. I expected this of Assistant Attorney General David Harris because ever since I started this action, his only tool has been intimidation, threats, and fear tactics. This representative has threatened me monetarily at every turn, even telling me, because he couldn't get in touch with my attorney, who was in Court, that I had no right to file this action and he would go after me monetarily if I continued this action. He even threatened to file a complaint against my attorney. The threats continue from the Attorney General's Office but only on paper and on the phone. I guess when he sees me in person this small little man, doesn't feel so big and bad. He feels like he can threaten me for standing up for my right to be heard in Court. I feel that he wants to extend this injunction hearing until after May 2nd because he feels the Judge will be less likely to grant the injunction after it takes effect. If granted, the injunction would place this new document on hold. This new document that was meant to replace the current MOU that all therapists and polygraph examiners are protected under, which is currently under litigation. Sounds real ethical, huh? In my opinion, David Harris is a threat to small businesses all over Texas
It amazes me that an Attorney General's Office that has this hard stance on sex offenders in the past does not want a larger market of polygraph examiners to keep the "evil sexual predator" in check. T he Attorney General's Office has a good talk every election when it comes to sex offenders and keeping them from re offending. What is not said is that he wants them to be kept in check as long as it is convenient for the wallets of the sex offender therapists, the polygraph examiners, and others who know how to "work the system". I still find it strange that the therapist with the biggest offender case load is a former probation officer from the same department that they receive most of their referrals from. The same referrals that do not really exist, but no one can get unless they play ball with Tarrant County CSCD allowing them to take control over your business. No one has any right to any referral that really does not exist, but you can get unless you sign this new document that says that no one is entitled to referrals that do not exist, but are given to the select few that were once probation officers in this department. Yeah, that's it. That's the ticket.
There are two big polygraph companies in the area. It can sometimes take two to four weeks to get a sex offender, who may be suspected of re-offending, into a polygraph room. If that offender is re-offending, this two to four week wait allows that offender two to four more weeks to have a good time and maybe go out with a bang. Sure it won't happen to your kid. We all say that, until it happens to little Jimmy or Jane down the street. Then when it does happen, people start complaining, "Why didn't someone TRY to stop this from happening?" Well, the answer is simple. The Attorney Generals Office, the county, a few sex offender therapists, and a few polygraph examiners wanted to keep all the offenders from going to people that had more time and resources to handle the "evil sexual predator." It was felt that it would be in public's best interest that an offender, who may be high risk, should wait two to four weeks to get into a polygraph examination rather than get them in within a day and maybe even the same day. Your government wants to protect the bank accounts of a few people. After all, the probationer that may be reoffending isn't diddling the children of anyone working for the Attorney General's Office, the Governor, a Senator, or a Representative. Not their kids. Just yours. But that is OK. They will catch the guy in two to four weeks. It can wait. It is not a huge priority. After all money, is what is important, right?
Wake Up Texas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just because they are not doing this to your business does not mean they will not when they want to. Just because it would not be your kid in danger does not mean that it will not be someone you know and love. If it ever does happen to you, then might be because a state agency that is accountable to no one, not even the tax paying Texan, dropped the ball. An agency that can change the rules with one cross eyed look. Go ahead and try to hold them accountable in Court. You will get a happy call from the Texas Attorney General's Office saying that if you try to press your rights, they will punish you monetarily, and tell you that your lawyer is wrong and they will file a complaint with the State Bar.
A government that says they are committed to keeping sex offenders from re-offending, but yet will not use all resources available because one of their current resources wants to be able to afford their commutes to and from Van Zandt County or Louisiana.
I have a great idea! Let's just drop the sex offender treatment model and just get that guy from Dateline NBC to come back to Texas once and a while. He will be better than the system in place and everyone will see what is being done. Everyone is happy to see their pictures on a database, but no one asks what is being done to rehabilitate or manage them.
NOTE: The new contact, document, MOU, or whatever the hell these.....um..... kind people in tarrant county probation wana call this thing is attached to this posting.
Now, play lawyer (in your mind) for just a second. Would you tell anyone that this was a fair document to sing?
QuoteMost people do not have an understanding of the psycho physiological workings of the body when in a fearful state.
If you are referring to the F3 response, then it's just not "fear", also "fight" and "freeze".
Those who produced the NAS Report, do know all about it. They seemed to conclude that a "reaction" does not uniquely indicate deception.
Those here who've tested false positive can attest to that. Being REPEATED told by polygrapher that they are being deceptive when truthfully answering "no" to a test question is very likely to cause a person's ANS to "put up it's dukes" when hearing that question (no matter how many times it has been permutated).
I remember when taking PSYCH 101 watching a tape with Dr. Phil Zimbardo at Stanford where he explained this. Of course, he's not a polygrapher, so.....
TC
It appears to me, and probably other readers, that there are a few established businesses in TX and you are having a hard time getting started. Welcome to the real world. It takes time and energy to building your business. Why do you think that just because you entered the arena you should be able to take business away from an entity that has the confidence and professionalism that some therapists have depended upon?
To read your statement you would think the entire state of Texas is corrupt. That's crazy! The polygraph examiner is on the take, the PO is on the take, the therapist is on the take....then there you are – off to save the world by offering $50 PCSOT exams and airing your dirty laundry at the very place that offers sex offenders advice on how to 'try' and beat the polygraph and advises them not to cooperate with therapy. Wow, you are really doing some justice.
I know Mr. Holden and respect him. He has put in time and effort into making the PCSOT program more regulated (and fair to the sex offender) as well as assisting the polygraph profession as a whole.
By the way, a therapist does not need to know a specific polygraph format. If they have a competent examiner, the examiner will run the appropriate exam format based upon the information presented to them. In your 'case' it even states that Ms. Moore was not familiar with 'Fenian' and would like to see examples of the types of tests they ran before she would refer them business. I believe that is a fair statement. Did you provide her with some examples of your tests?
I am curious, what professional organizations do you belong to?
On another note: NPC, you know a polygraph can be manipulated, you use to run them mate! Anyone can screw up a polygraph chart but not many can actually 'beat' them.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 22, 2008, 09:03 PMQuoteMost people do not have an understanding of the psycho physiological workings of the body when in a fearful state.
If you are referring to the F3 response, then it's just not "fear", also "fight" and "freeze".
Those who produced the NAS Report, do know all about it. They seemed to conclude that a "reaction" does not uniquely indicate deception.
Those here who've tested false positive can attest to that. Being REPEATED told by polygrapher that they are being deceptive when truthfully answering "no" to a test question is very likely to cause a person's ANS to "put up it's dukes" when hearing that question (no matter how many times it has been permutated).
I remember when taking PSYCH 101 watching a tape with Dr. Phil Zimbardo at Stanford where he explained this. Of course, he's not a polygrapher, so.....
TC
Ok, Now I am going to be a wee bit of a jerk. So, I ask everyones forgivness in advance, but, I hate it when some one has not read the entier post. Yet, they still try to take a jab at something that they can not control at this moment. Let me make this as clear as possable and this is not a theory, or an opinion. It is what it is, so at the risk of pissing someone off, here it is.
P-O-L-Y-G-R-A-P-H IS H-E-A-R TO S-T-A-Y IN REGARDS TO SEX OFFENDER TESTING........ DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!
If the state of New York is approving sex offender polygraph testing, than it is clear that some of the antipolygraph industry may feel that polygraphing sex offenders is ok. Maybe these bleeding heard Democrats feel that sex offenders are less worthy of the same right of the rest of the self ritchous, self important ameriacans that care only about their own agenda and care nothing for the general good in a tough situation. Wow, you must work for the Texas Attorny Generals Office.
These people HAVE to take polygraphs because they entered into a contract with they state of texas that stipulated that they would submit to periodic polygraph examinations in exchange for not going to prision. They are told that they have a choice of certified polygraph examiners, then are told that the people that expect the offender not to lie has, infact lied to the offender. When the probationer asks for an independant polygraph examination that is not a "yes man" to probation or the therapist, that probationers request for an independant examination is mett with accusations of being uncooperatve and is threatened with revocation. If the probationer still insists for an independant polygraph examination from an indepandant polygraph examiner, hurdles are intentionall put into place to make sure that test doesn't happen. If my results of the independant polygraph are contrary to that of the "choosen polygraph examiner", the independant polygraph is deemed to be flawed by people that don't know jack about polygraph. Therefore the probationer, telling the truth or lying, is screwed either way and probation still gets what they want.
Hey Bruno, 'naaaaarrrroooo".
The offender is sent to a polygraph examiner, who could care less if the offender is telling the truth or lying. As far as the examiner, therapist, and probation officer is conserned in many of these cases, the offender is lying and they will continue to polygraph shop untill they find the result that they want. When the desired result is obtained, the polygraph examination is then utilized to revoke the probationers probation. A probationer that may have been telling the truth. so stop your stomping on the floor, whining, and gnawing of your teeth at a polygrah examiner that wants to give these guy's a FAIR polygraph examination.
If you don't want to be part of the solution, then STOP contributing to the problem. Your being a selfish twit, who could care less about anything more or anything less then your own agenda. That is what you look like.
Be cause you have clearly were unable or unwilling to read such a big and complicated posting, ley me REPEAT a part of the post you have missed, intentionally or otherwise.
I am not here to be anti polygraph or pro polygraph. I am here to be pro business, pro free market, and pro holding people to a policy that was clearly in place. I feel that polygraph is a very important tool in regards to convicted sex offender management. Depending on self report has proven to be useless. This is also common sense. Denial is a big factor in their crimes and in their thinking errors. I am not going to get into long and useless arguments on this because nothing will get solved. It will only end in everyone not having or wanting to agree to disagree.
I will not engage in conversations that will not solve the issue being argued. I will say that I respect your feelings and understand the anger in regards to the polygraph industry. I hope you will understand how I feel about what I do and my anger that I am being blocked from making a living because I give a fair and independent polygraph.
I AM NOT HEAR TO ARGUE WITH YOU.
I am here to make sure that the state or Texas and Tarrant County lives up to arrements that were made to people in exchage for their guilty plea. Just because they are criminals, does not mean that the people how don't want the sex offenders to lie to them, can lie to the sex offenders. Then Lie to the theripists that are there to get into the sex offenders heads, and finally lie to the polygraph examiners who are there to help the therapists and the probation officers in their efforts to manage the sex offender.
You are right, we are just talking about unimportand rights, unkept promisess and maybe even a corrupt system. But your personal agenda is much more important. It's all about you. The stage is yours. Send in the clowns.
Congratulations. You have just shown yourself to be the egotistical, self-centered, selfish thing that some people already knew you were. You also put yourself forward as a person that is incapable or unwilling to read a document or posting completely before tapping aimlessly on your commodore 64 computer like a clueless nail clipping collector.
There are people that walk into a polygraph room that just may be set up for failure. These people are told by their therapists and probation officers that they "will fail that polygraph" and that the polygraph examiner will ask the exact questions that the probation officers write. Do you know what happens the vast majority of the time? The probationer magically fails that test and pays $200.00 for the pleasure. At best, the probationer has to take another polygraph examination and pay another $200.00. The magic happens again and then the probationer is sent for another polygraph examination, paying yet another $200.00. It ends when the probationer is broke and almost wants to go to jail because at least there he knows where he stands.
Yet you want to be an ass to a polygraph examiner who is charging $125.00 to administer a fair polygraph. An examiner that would like nothing more than to give only one examination and solve the problem, but has no problem to say there is an issue with the tracings. An examiner who will stay in the room to work through the issue to be sure that outside issues didn't bleed into the test.
Take your agenda to the polygraph procedure message board where a lot of talk happens, but nothing gets solved or no one can find some common understanding. I am trying to help save my business, the businesses of others, and the asses of some people that just want the fair shot that they were promised.
I am sorry that some people here may have had jerks as polygraph examiners. I am sorry that some people in here "failed a polygraph when they were telling the truth". I am sorry that one of these things has happened to you. But, after your little attitude, I can tell you this from the bottom of my heart. If you want sympathy from me, you will find it in the dictionary. It's right in between the words sex and syphilis
I will respect people's opinion when they say that polygraph is a "flip of the coin" or a "50/50 chance." But doing some common sense math here, if polygraph is 50/50 that would mean that 25 to 50 % of the people who say they failed a polygraph when they were telling the truth are lying to you. Yet you could care less about that because it because it doesn't fit it doesn't fit the agenda that you want everyone to pay attention to instead of an issue that affects real people, real families, and real livelihoods.
Try, just try, to empathize or sympathize with the plight of others instead of being a cheap attention hound. You may find that it will make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
I could care less that you saw some video tape featuring some shrink that I don't know of and could care less about. I don't care that he was ranting on and on about how bad polygraph is and how it should be never used again. I doubt that this shrink has seen a polygraph instrument; much less ran even one test. If he has, I doubt that he's run a test on a real person in a real situation that was a matter of freedom or incarceration.
I don't care that you took PSYCH 101. It means you didn't make it to PSYCH 201. If someone had a PSYCH degree, they would be bragging about their doctoral dissertation, not PSYCH 101.
If you have a PhD, it doesn't make you smarter than me. It just makes you more educated that me. There are many people in the world that are more educated that I am, yet they can't cook a meal, tie their shoes, or hold down a job in an environment where real competition exists.
I am not impressed.
Adults are trying to solve a problem that is solvable here. Go play in traffic. Your rantings just degrade yourself and insult others that could care less about Dr. Phil who you had a crush on while taking PSYCH 101.
I am done with you now. I will no longer respond to you until you have something to contribute to THIS situation.
You should be ashamed of yourself. Your lack of caring for others as to how they are being totally screwed makes me sick to my stomach.
I am sorry everyone. It's just insulting to me when I pretty much lay it on the line about polygraph being "unbeatable" and this twit still isn't happy. So he'll gladly take the attention off the subject being addressed, just to make everyone think he so very much more intelligent than everyone else because he took PSYCH 101 in his first year in collage.
Well there is good news and bad new for ole T.C.
Good news? Jesus loves him.
Bad news? Jesus has no choice to love him, God ordered him to.
QuoteIf you don't want to be part of the solution, then STOP contributing to the problem. Your being a selfish twit, who could care less about anything more or anything less then your own agenda. That is what you look like.
You sound like an arrogant, long-winded, pontificating old jerk.
But I could be wrong.
My agenda is to expose the preemployment polygraph for what it is, a pseudo-scientific fishing expedition.
TC
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 02:16 AMQuoteIf you don't want to be part of the solution, then STOP contributing to the problem. Your being a selfish twit, who could care less about anything more or anything less then your own agenda. That is what you look like.
You sound like an arrogant, long-winded, pontificating old jerk.
But I could be wrong.
My agenda is to expose the preemployment polygraph for what it is, a pseudo-scientific fishing expedition.
TC
Two out of three TC. A am arrogant, good luck finding a a polygraph examiner who isn't. I think it is writtend somewhere in our S.O.P. I am a pontificating jerk. I have no shame over this, but jerk is hardly a would I would use to describe myself whan I'm pissed.
I am not normally long-winded and I actually much younger than most of my fellow examiners at 38. Most of them have a foot on the ground and the other in the grave. And right now there is only one person that I would waste my time giving CPR to. As for the rest of them, I am in the current mood of "don't go away mad, just go away".
On that note I have to say I 100% agree with you in regards to pre-employment testsing. I hate doing them, thay are a huge pain in the ass, and I am glad not to be doing them right now.
Please forgive me if I jumped down your throat a wee too much. It's just that these fart collectors that have a problem with me pointing out an injustice. So they think making threats is somehow giong to make me shut up.
I think that they will find that it makes me dig in further. As for whats her face that posted last night, I'll get to your posting a wee bit latter in the day.
So, stay tuned, watch what happens next. I plan to exposes what I "nice guy" Eric holden is. I am going to do this my sharing snips of a transcript that I have ontained from someone who was at an apa seminar.
Mr. Holden agrees with the coing argument, and laments on a story where he seems very happy with himself for sending someone to prision for 40 year in a test that was NDI.
Stick around.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 22, 2008, 09:55 PM
On another note: NPC, you know a polygraph can be manipulated, you use to run them mate! Anyone can screw up a polygraph chart but not many can actually 'beat' them.
Well, hello Donna. I am SO HAPPY you are paying attention to me again. I have missed you!
I guess you just confirmed that polygraph countermeasures do work, thank-you. Now, we are getting somewhere. BTW, do you have any idea regarding the percentage of polygraph exams are purposely manipulated?
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 09:24 AMIt's just that these fart collectors that have a problem with me pointing out an injustice.
That comment sir, belongs in the "anti-polygraph HALL OF FAME."
BTW, you are about to become polygraph's "Public Enemy No. 1." I hope you are ready.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 22, 2008, 07:54 PM If someone is going to fail a polygraph, they will do that all by themselves. They do not need my help to fail a polygraph. It is my job to help the truthful person PASS their polygraph.
To properly address the bulk of your post would take days of research and hours of time composing a cogent response, and since I have no dog in your fight, I'll pass. But, I do want to point out the language you use "above" is inaccurate, beecause"
How can one PASS an opinion? Isn't the result of a poly exam simply the opinion of the examiner, that the squiggly lines were made in response to questions asked?
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 09:59 AMQuote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 22, 2008, 07:54 PM If someone is going to fail a polygraph, they will do that all by themselves. They do not need my help to fail a polygraph. It is my job to help the truthful person PASS their polygraph.
To properly address the bulk of your post would take days of research and hours of time composing a cogent response, and since I have no dog in your fight, I'll pass. But, I do want to point out the language you use "above" is inaccurate, beecause"
How can one PASS an opinion? Isn't the result of a poly exam simply the opinion of the examiner, that the squiggly lines were made in response to questions asked?
Thank you for your kind post. You are one of the people on this message board that I look forward to reading a post from.
I understand you don't have a dog in this fight, but also feel that we all have a dog in the fight. They can do this to one class of person, and no one stands up because they are not in that class. This will make some people in our government more bold, so they do the same thing to another class of people. No one stand up because they are not in that class. Then for "security sake" they do this to a class of people that you belong to, there is no one how will stand up. Because there are none left other than the people who make the rules.
This could happen to anyone.
All of that was meant with all due respect.
On the next note, I feel, the use of the word opinion in polygraph is stupid and self defeatist. The Polygraph Illuminaniti keeps coming up with the words and phrases that almost beg to be challenged.
Either the charts show significant response or they do not. The word "opinion", implies that I am being subjective in my scoring. While there is a great deal of subjectivity in the 7 point scale, there is no subjectivity in 3 three point scale or ROSS.
Reaction is there or it is not there. I hate saying "ok this reaction is twice the amplitude from duration to relief in the control question. On the other hand the relevant question has a complex reaction that looks really neat. I would normally say that this reaction in relation to the control question would be a +2 but because of the complex reaction in the relevant question. So I will give this zone a +1".
On the seven point scale an examiner is being objective to allow them to be subjective. Some people just hear blah blah blah blah. I am happy to explain it but it would take a bit of time and further piss off my colleagues who don't seem to want to know what ever it is that they are not hiding. Because they insist that there is a free market that they have almost squeezed me out of because they are just that much better than I am and don't feel at all threatened by the presence of a polygraph examiner that gives a fair and honest polygraph examine.
The 3 point scale is in my personal opinion more objective rather than subjective using -0+. Either the reaction is there or it is now or it's hard to tell the difference between one over the other.
ROSS is a rank order form of scoring. Giving a numerical value to each relevant question and the highest reacting control. for instance if it is a 4 question air force MGQT I will give the highest reacting question a 4 and then the following downward reactions 3 2 1 0. I add the totals work it all out on a bell curve and make a mathematical decision from there. The reason I like this system, is because I have found it to be a system that is in line with the term Psyhset.
I am compariring the largest reacting control over all the others. I want to base my decision off the control question that causes the most concern.
Also there is a lower rate on inconclusive. I hate inconclusive tests.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 09:36 AMQuote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 09:24 AM It's just that these fart collectors that have a problem with me pointing out an injustice.
That comment sir, belongs in the "anti-polygraph HALL OF FAME."
BTW, you are about to become polygraph's "Public Enemy No. 1." I hope you are ready.
I already am. I have been receiving threats. I actually don't even bother turning on one of my cell phones anymore. I have gotten to a point that I am even arming myself. Yes things are getting that bad.
I can't trust anyone. It's a very lonely feeling standing up for the write thing.
But, ole Whitey James Buldger has been public enemy #1 for the FBI for years. Never underestimate a Mick that is backed into a corner. One may not like the end result.
If they want me that bad, come and get me. As we say in Southie "Do Somin"
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 09:28 AMQuote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 22, 2008, 09:55 PM
On another note: NPC, you know a polygraph can be manipulated, you use to run them mate! Anyone can screw up a polygraph chart but not many can actually 'beat' them.
Well, hello Donna. I am SO HAPPY you are paying attention to me again. I have missed you!
I guess you just confirmed that polygraph countermeasures do work, thank-you. Now, we are getting somewhere. BTW, do you have any idea regarding the percentage of polygraph exams are purposely manipulated?
wow I thought I cleared up the countermeasures issues pertty well.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 10:59 AM[
Either the charts show significant response or they do not. The word "opinion", implies that I am being subjective in my scoring. While there is a great deal of subjectivity in the 7 point scale, there is no subjectivity in 3 three point scale or ROSS.
I left in the above simply as a reference to the discussion. Regardless of what Donna says about me, (I think she DOES like me though) I am not, nor ever have been a polygrapher, so I am not conversant in the secret language of polygraph.
But, my point is, that first, a polygrapher makes the assumption that any physiological signal one emmits is due to the question asked, and not some other reason. Which of course, can lead to the use of countermeasures, (if someone understands this). Secondly, in each polygraph I have taken, (three of them) I was asked by the polygrapher to explain "blips." Then, whether or not the polygrapher believed me as to the truthfulness of my explanation, resulted in whether or not I PASSED the polygraph.
In other words, he formed an opinion as to my truthfulness, and based my "pass", (or "fail" in one case) upon his opinion of my truthfulness.
Because the polygraph is not a subjective test, one cannot pass or fail it, in the classicial, scientific sense. If a person takes a test in mathematics, there is one right answer, only. If a person gets enough answers right, he passes.
So, I respectfully suggest the term "opinion" is the better choice, and I have no problems with the result of a polygraph being something along the lines of "In my opinion, the subject was being truthful" as that would be an honest statement. But to say one "passed" a polygraph is innaccurate and dishonest, as one cannot "pass" an opinion.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 11:25 AMQuote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 10:59 AM[
Either the charts show significant response or they do not. The word "opinion", implies that I am being subjective in my scoring. While there is a great deal of subjectivity in the 7 point scale, there is no subjectivity in 3 three point scale or ROSS.
I left in the above simply as a reference to the discussion. Regardless of what Donna says about me, (I think she DOES like me though) I am not, nor ever have been a polygrapher, so I am not conversant in the secret language of polygraph.
But, my point is, that first, a polygrapher makes the assumption that any physiological signal one emmits is due to the question asked, and not some other reason. Which of course, can lead to the use of countermeasures, (if someone understands this). Secondly, in each polygraph I have taken, (three of them) I was asked by the polygrapher to explain "blips." Then, whether or not the polygrapher believed me as to the truthfulness of my explanation, resulted in whether or not I PASSED the polygraph.
In other words, he formed an opinion as to my truthfulness, and based my "pass", (or "fail" in one case) upon his opinion of my truthfulness.
Because the polygraph is not a subjective test, one cannot pass or fail it, in the classicial, scientific sense. If a person takes a test in mathematics, there is one right answer, only. If a person gets enough answers right, he passes.
So, I respectfully suggest the term "opinion" is the better choice, and I have no problems with the result of a polygraph being something along the lines of "In my opinion, the subject was being truthful" as that would be an honest statement. But to say one "passed" a polygraph is innaccurate and dishonest, as one cannot "pass" an opinion.
LOL ok first off, I wish I could explain what a "blip" is. The Examiner in question must have been a "twit". I would think that a "blip" is what I like to call the "oh sh&^ here comes the question reaction". I expect to see this, and when this reaction happens I am happy that the examinee not only understands the questions, but he is thinking about them. I get this impression because the "oh sh$^" usually happens between the start of the question and the answer. Therefore the reaction must be timely. I am lalso looking for the "oh fu@&" reaction. Then I look for consistency.
I do my best to be sure I set my controls well enough to help the truthful person to "pass" for the lack of a shorter term.
I will clarify this. No one ever passes a polygraph. Because in order to "pass" a polygraph you have to lie .
I know it sounds wacky, but, it is what it is.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 11:25 AM
wow I thought I cleared up the countermeasures issues pertty well.
A couple problems with your line of reasoning here. First off, polygraphers tend to contradict each other. Heck, one notable polygrapher here states that a polygraph isn't actually a lie detector, and the polygraph isn't designed to detect deception or verify the truth! So, even though you may have answered correctly and honestly, please forgive me for not falling all over myself to take what you, or any other polygrapher says for the truth.
Secondly, you must realize that Donna Taylor and myself have a long history of her sniping at me, (along with accusing me of being a sex offender and/or a polygrapher) and then refusing to answer my questions when I challenge something she has said. (Like she will do here, if history repeats itself).
You see, the point that I am trying to clarify is that because the polygraph CAN be manipulated, but no-one knows to what extent the polygraph is routinely manipulated by the examinees, then to rely upon the results of a polygraph for anything really important is pretty foolish. Wouldn't you agree?
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 01:49 PMQuote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 11:25 AM
wow I thought I cleared up the countermeasures issues pertty well.
A couple problems with your line of reasoning here. First off, polygraphers tend to contradict each other. Heck, one notable polygrapher here states that a polygraph isn't actually a lie detector, and the polygraph isn't designed to detect deception or verify the truth! So, even though you may have answered correctly and honestly, please forgive me for not falling all over myself to take what you, or any other polygrapher says for the truth.
Secondly, you must realize that Donna Taylor and myself have a long history of her sniping at me, (along with accusing me of being a sex offender and/or a polygrapher) and then refusing to answer my questions when I challenge something she has said. (Like she will do here, if history repeats itself).
You see, the point that I am trying to clarify is that because the polygraph CAN be manipulated, but no-one knows to what extent the polygraph is routinely manipulated by the examinees, then to rely upon the results of a polygraph for anything really important is pretty foolish. Wouldn't you agree?
With all due respect I can not completely agree with you here.
I do agree that Donna or ray or wonder woman ( that is original ) or the dragon lady has been entertaining at best.
i do agree that polygraph tracings can be manipulated.
I do agree that polygraph examiners can't get our crap together as a whole. We never will either at the current rate.
I don't expect people to fall all over themselves because I told a basic truth that has been common knowledge for years.
I don't agree that polygraph is no good for "really important stuff". I feel that we just need to shake ands there and agree to disagree and get back you calling this Donna person to the plate and account for her misguided statements. You with me?
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 22, 2008, 09:55 PMIt appears to me, and probably other readers, that there are a few established businesses in TX and you are having a hard time getting started. Welcome to the real world. It takes time and energy to building your business. Why do you think that just because you entered the arena you should be able to take business away from an entity that has the confidence and professionalism that some therapists have depended upon?
To read your statement you would think the entire state of Texas is corrupt. That's crazy! The polygraph examiner is on the take, the PO is on the take, the therapist is on the take....then there you are – off to save the world by offering $50 PCSOT exams and airing your dirty laundry at the very place that offers sex offenders advice on how to 'try' and beat the polygraph and advises them not to cooperate with therapy. Wow, you are really doing some justice.
I know Mr. Holden and respect him. He has put in time and effort into making the PCSOT program more regulated (and fair to the sex offender) as well as assisting the polygraph profession as a whole.
By the way, a therapist does not need to know a specific polygraph format. If they have a competent examiner, the examiner will run the appropriate exam format based upon the information presented to them. In your 'case' it even states that Ms. Moore was not familiar with 'Fenian' and would like to see examples of the types of tests they ran before she would refer them business. I believe that is a fair statement. Did you provide her with some examples of your tests?
I am curious, what professional organizations do you belong to?
On another note: NPC, you know a polygraph can be manipulated, you use to run them mate! Anyone can screw up a polygraph chart but not many can actually 'beat' them.
Alrighty, Donna I have put much thought into this response. Let's all note here that she called me out.
It sounds like you might be trying to save your business from someone
like me entering into the market.
I was told by David Kilpatrick that "the probationer is handed a list
of approved polygraph examiners and the probationer may choose from thatlist". Then, I found out that I was lied to by the people who aresupposed to be watching over the criminals. When I call their integrityto the plate, I am somehow made the bad guy. Nice. I guess integritymeans nothing to you either. Or does integrity only mean something to you when it benefits you?
My product will take the business away all on its own. I have been in
this area for a few years; therefore I am far from new. I have run
tests for people on the defendant list in the past. They know I gave a
fair and valid polygraph exam, not "utility tests".
I did write letters of introduction to these therapists before I found
out there was even a "Tarrant County List", which the Government Code does not authorize them to create. Tarrant County CSCD is not a licensing agency with rule making authority, yet it wants to act like
one. So this kind of spoils your point that I didn't do enough. Nice
try though.
I learned what I had to do to get a polygraph examiners license. I
busted my ass to make it happen. I did it on my own money. I took the time off from work losing income. I came home and started my
internship. During my internship, I sought out my PCSOT training with
what is thought of as the best private polygraph school in the country,
The Backster School. While doing my internship and taking my PCSOT
training, I was collaborating with my ex-wife on a very well written
article that was published in a SMU Law Review on the subject of
polygraph in future admissibility in trade secrete litigation. I doubt
that most of the examiners in this area were involved in the writing of
an article that may further polygraph and its application in other
areas of the law within the first two years of their career. But ecause I am not Holden or Wood or in their little circle, this hardly gets a second look where as if it had been someone from their offices, it would have resulted in polygraph examiner of the year. Most of you will more than likely never read the work that my ex busted her ass over with me helping to further polygraph for the better. Oops there I go again. I forgot that you were trying to make me out to be the bad guy. It is time for me to get back into character for you. OK. I'm ready for my close up.
Nothing was handed to me. I am still paying for everything. Unlike
others that went to polygraph school on the taxpayer's dime, while
receiving a salary, their CEU's are paid for by tax dollars as are
their instruments in many cases. What the taxpayers don't know is that these "police polygraph examiners" run private tests on the side, many times getting paid in cash. Cash that, as a taxpayer, I am curious if that money is ever reported to the IRS. I know. Cops never steal. Cops are never involved in corruption. All cops are citizens with sterling reputations who never ever break the law and are always around to help a little baby kittens out of the tree. Yea and I am the first Irish Pope.
They are making thousands on the side while you, the taxpayer flip the
bill. I have never heard of one red penny go back to the government
treasury to reimburse the public for the privilege of going to that
polygraph school and having it funded by the department while paying
their salary for one less cop that is on the job to protect the
community from the threats of the day. Da dada daaaaaa.
I busted my ass and continue to bust my ass while others have it handed to them. And when I step forward to grab my piece of the American Dream? "Sorry, you can work as hard as you want, but if you don't have enough to have your business survive until people retire or die, you don't stand a chance". I don't think so. There are no longer signs that say "Irish need not apply". I'll work damn hard to be a success.
But I won't take a back seat to someone that had it all handed to them.
Not when my work is just as good as theirs and in some cases better. I have seen some of these guys charts, and I can tell you I have seen
better charts from four week LDO's.
I have run over 1,000 polygraph examinations total. Many times I was
the "go to guy" on tests that I was told Holden and Company screwed up. Many of the people on the defendant list have had me run tests for them in the past. I have even run tests for them recently because the
offenders got my direct mailings and made a choice to use an
independent polygraph examiner. It is funny how these therapists are happy to use my DI results and the confessions that accompany them. But when a test goes NDI, my polygraph is deemed flawed and the probationer is forced to take another exam with the examiner that is not of the probationer's choice until the desired result is achieved. It sounds like polygraph result shopping to me, which is what everyone says that they are afraid the probationer will do. So it's do as I say not as I do. That is goodleading by example.
Well I don't sell results. I sell fair and independent polygraph
examinations. It is the "established businesses" in this area that
doesn't like the idea that someone has come into their market that
might just be an actual threat.
If you don't think so, then ask yourself this. If they are still just
that darn good, then why are they afraid to compete with me in a free
market that was clearly CSCD policy? Why is everyone so afraid of me? If they are not afraid that I'll take business away from them, then
they won't mind doing business in a free market. If they are so much better than I am, have great prices, and good customer service for all, then examinees will be breaking down their doors, even in a free market. If the free market that I was told existed goes into place and all their examinees that have been going to them because they had no choice would turn their backs on Wood, Holden and their companies and start coming through my doors. This would cut into Clayton's and the Holden boys entitlements. They'll actually have to earn reputations instead of riding on daddy's coat tails. It would cut into all the other's retirements and cut into repaying Eric Holden's IRS tax lien. Oops did I say that with my outside voice? Silly me.
You have this backwards. I am not airing my dirty laundry. I am
exposing the dirty sheets that they have been leaving in the lines for
years. You just seem to have a problem looking at a situation and
seeing judging it from an unbiased prospective. You made that clear when you mentioned what good buddies you are with Eric Holden and what a nice and sweet men he is. This tells me one of three things:
1. You interned under him and therefore you feel beholden to him;
2. Maybe there is a deeper relationship; or
3. You are his wife.
I know this probably offended you or someone else, but I could care less as you clearly didn't care about assuming to much abot me. And given Mr. Holden's past behavior, you are no stranger to being offended.
I guess you are also saying that they are more established, offer a
fair price, have more examiners, are more experienced, claim to spend time with examinees pre-test and post-test, claim to be fair, and claim to treat examinees like human beings. While it may be true that they are more established, have more examiners on staff, and most of those examiners are more experienced than I am, the rest is in serious doubt. You should know that probationers are talking and their stories are matching up.
One of these big firms doesn't know it yet, but there is a rat among
them. I know more than you think I know. I have Holden's employee
manual here. It makes for good reading. Would you like a copy? I'd be happy to PDF it for you. Maybe George wants a copy. Hold on.
Hey George, ya want a copy of Eric Holden's employee manual?
Clearly you weren't at the first two hearings. Allow me to fill you in
as I am sure Mr. Holden has lied to you because he wasn't even man
enough to show is face. On the subject of not showing faces, Mr.
Holden, along with everyone that works for him, refused to receive
service and intentionally avoided service, which is against the law.
Apparently, his receptionist, who was rude to the process server, was
served by Court ordered substitute of service. He is such a brave and
good man that he hid from a pile of papers. This is a man that I would
want to lead my enemies into battle. He must be French.
Anyway, Kilpatrick, at the beginning of his testimony said under oath
that there were no polygraph examiner and therapists that engaged in
exclusive relationships with therapists. After a wee bit more grilling
from the Judge, he admitted that he knew a few therapists that
practiced in exclusive relationships and when probationers were told to choose their therapists, the probationer was not told that choosing that particular therapist would mean that the therapist would dictate which polygraph examiner he/she used. It sounds corrupt to me. I can see
why
that wouldn't sound corrupt to you. Maybe you are probably one of the
people benefiting from this sweet deal.
In one of his emails, Kilpatrick said that the "strange symbiotic
relationships" between examiners and therapists had to come to an end. When we started following up with him, then he started backing off that strong definitive statement. But that was after he started addressing the issue with the therapists. Huh? There is a strong definitive statement before addressing the statement, then backing off and taking the side of the "strange symbiotic relationship" after addressing the issue with the therapists. Well, it doesn't take a polygraph examiner to see through that.
In the email that called the relationships between therapists and
examiners "strange and symbiotic", he also mentioned that this issue
mayneed to be settled in Court. Let's not go pointing fingers at me about filing suit. It was never in my mind until Kilpatrick said that was an option. Be fair here and place that blame square on the shoulders thatit belongs.
I doubt you'll be able to do that though. You seem to want to make me out to be the evil monster here. It looks like that is not working so
well for you.
My attorney and I tried like hell to settle this before we filed. I
even begged the president of TAPE to help. He said he couldn't help and that if what I said was happening, it was wrong and I should stand up for myself. This is what I am doing.
When I did press action David Harris called me, while I was represented by counsel, which by the way, is a BIG NO NO! But I guess working for the Attorney General makes someone exempt from some rules. Wow, you know what that sounds like? Corruption! Lets move on up now and discuss Mr. Harris' conversation. I was told that he was a reasonable person. That was his first lie, as he has not even made any attempt to try to resolve the issue. Well, other than threatening me monetarily and saying that he could do anything he wanted because he represented the Attorney General's Office and Tarrant County CSCD could take my name off the approved providers list because I filed action and there was nothing that could be done about it. Mr. Harris has never denied that he said that. He then told me that he didn't want to have to file a complaint with the State Bar. That sounds like an attempt to scare me using his position and saying that if I didn't stop this that I would be taken off the list. Scare tactics from corruption or terrorism. It sounds like someone trying to scare me into submission to achieve a political agenda to me. He continues to use this tactic, which just makes me dig in even further and prepare for a long battle.
Let's move on with the corruption. A therapist has had a "polygraph
fund" where probationers have paid up to $25 a month on top of their
therapy fees. When the probationer is ready to take a polygraph, the
therapist makes the appointment, and then pays the examiner out of this "polygraph fund". When a probationer asks for an accounting of themoney that he has been giving to this therapist, the probationer is
told that he would be kicked out of the group for being uncooperative. If there was no hanky panky going on, then what is the big secret? That by itself is suspicious. Add that to the fact that they won't produce financial documents that are protected by injunction along with any emails, letters, recording and other comments for the one year preceding the hearings. But, they expect me to pony up the same documents theyrefuse to produce. Well, that is just plain transparent. I wonder where some of that money was going? Guess I'll know soon enough.
Funny how the therapist with the biggest case load is someone who usedto be a probation officer with Tarrant County CSCD. Now, come on, tell me that is not obvious, or at least has an appearance of impropriety. Or are you just like the rest of the one sided people on this message board.
The Judge asked for a show of hands on how many therapists and
polygraph examiners engaged in exclusive relationships. You would be amazed how any hands went up. All while the top caption of the "approved polygraph examiners list" clearly read "the probationer can go to a polygraph examiner of his choice". It sounds like corruption and deceptive practices to me. But maybe I learned a different version of English than you did.
You make it seem like I am the only one. I have news for ya. I will
not be on the plaintiff's list alone much longer. Everyone may be in
for a shock real soon. Someone with a lot of credibility might be stepping up to the plate soon.
Oh I could go on and will at another time, but for now I think I have
made my point. The transcripts of the hearings will also clear up some
misconceptions that you have and are trying to spread for people you
think are your friends. Just a word to the wise, don't think they won't
stab you in the back if they feel you are a threat to their wallets.
You respect him? Well isn't that understanding. You respect a man that
has been accused of receiving $1,500.00 from an elderly woman to assess her mentally disabled son for a polygraph while he was in jail and then never showing up for the polygraph. Yes taking advantage of an elderlywoman on a fixed income and her mentally disabled son is something that we should all respect and encourage. I am glad you cleared that up for me.
You respect a man that was told not to return to the DPS Polygraph
School because he can't keep his hands to himself, his ego in check,
and his mouth shut at the right moments. OK. Respecting sustained
allegations of sexual harassment..... Check!
You respect a man that, from what I understand, was given an advisory letter by a licensing agency for holding himself out to be a LPC on an expired license. You respect a man that had held himself out to be a PhD in California, but for some reason fails to list it on his credentials on his own website. You would think he would list it there. Maybe that is why you mention the name Holden at the Backster School and most of the people will tell you that he is not well respected or liked in California. Wow, you are an understanding woman. I'm impressed.
Personally, I am concerned. I have come into possession of a transcriptof a course that Mr. Holden was the speaker at for an APA seminar. Itdoesn't sound like he is confident when he says:
"Dr. (indiscernible) from Minnesota testified that there is, in his
judgment, a 40 percent false positive error rating in the tests the way
they're done and because of the procedures that were being employed. We countered that; we happened to win. But most of it has to do with whatthe perceived utility is. But as more and more people bring these issues up, and more and more courts address it, and more and more adversaries to polygraphs testify these tests that you're trying to act on violate the principles of practice on a validating polygraph test, we're going to lose. And if we lose this, we're going to be in big trouble. [1]"
This is someone that isn't even confident in his own profession.
Now let's talk fairness. During the same class the transcript says he
stated:
"So when I testified, I testified, the judge said -- (indiscernible)
all are friends of mine -- and the judge said -- I'll never forget this
(indiscernible) very nice little soft-shoe dance she's been doing up
here for the last hour. "Could I ask you a question?" I said, "Yes,
ma'am." She said, "Would you mind just answering the questions and
laying it out (indiscernible)." I said, "I would." She said, "You believe the two tests that he failed comport with the standards and principles and practices of (indiscernible) for PSCOT?" "Yes, I do. Yes, I do." "Do you believe in the accuracy of that test?"
"Yes." "Do you believe the ones he passed?" (Inaudible) I said, "No,
Ido not." "Do you believe the ones he passed showed non-deception was correct?" "No, I do not." "Was it valid?" "I don't believe so."
"Thank you very much. You're dismissed."
Wow, I hope I didn't read that wrong. Let me take a look at that last
paragraph again......Clearly says that he believed in the accuracy of
the test. But when he was asked if he believed the results of the NDI
tests he said no. Or at least that is his story. I am trying to
understand this. He said he believes in the accuracy of the test, but
on the other hand, he didn't believe that the NDI decision was correct
or valid? I wonder if those were tests he ran? It sounds like he's
fair to me.
Let's look at what he said after that shall we?
"Before I got to the door, she revoked him and gave him 40 years, over an opinion of a polygraph test. That is an important issue, because when it gets down to it, in the final analysis, when you're forming an opinion of DI or NDI, it's what you did to get that opinion that's going to make the difference in the perception that it was valid or it was
not. "
Wow 40 years! Mr. Holden, according to this transcript that was taken
from an audio recording of that class, was bragging about sending a man back to prison for 40 year on a test that was originally scored as NDI. All because he manipulated the perception of what was done to get to an opinion. I am right now trying to find out who the person was to perform a follow-up test on this man who got 40 years on an NDI test in which Mr. Holden said he believed in the accuracy.
"By the way, I apologize to you now, especially the youth of this
group, because I started in polygraph in 1973 full time. I started my career as a psychologist with the prison system in Texas about seven years,five years on the men's maximum security prison, one year on the women's prison, my last year on death row. At that point I (indiscernible) had plenty of it, went into private practice. And I've been in polygraph ever since, since 1973. [2]"
In the paragraph above we have Mr. Holden holding himself out to be a
psychologist. Last time I checked one had to have a PhD and a license
to be held out as a psychologist. If he can not offer up a PhD from an
accredited school and a license to practice psychology, then I guess he
would be lying to the young polygraph examiners in the APA. But, hey
he's Eric Holden! A good man doesn't lie and has tried to make PCSOT
fair for the examinee.
Oh yea about fairness. Let's take a look at another quote from this
transcript.
"And what we learned as we got into post conviction testing was that
post conviction testing, as opposed to what we've always historically
known in pre conviction testing, post conviction testing has a new set
of rules. And those rules caused us to have to go back to the drawing
board, because if we don't, we find that we have a problem where we
have a good deal of utility, but flip-of-a-coin accuracy in opinions." [3]
Ouch! He is right we do need to go back to the drawing board. God I
hopeno one hands him the chalk. When back at the drawing board, we need to address ethics, restrictive trade practices, a ban on creating monopolies, and antitrust laws.
"And polygraph -- I testified once that polygraph is so strong as a science that if done even moderately well, it's going to work better than testifying. So we will get a lot of information even if we're wrong in our opinions." [4]
Well even is an opinion is wrong at least we got some information
right? Um, wait a minute. If there is a possibility that the final opinion is wrong, how does one validate that the information obtained is accurate information? Huh? Well I guess its right because Eric Holden "the polygraph guru" says it is. And if anyone questions it, then they are blackballed, demonized and ridiculed. You know kind of what you are failing to do right now. I guess your little speech and hero worshipwould have sounded great if I didn't have all of this documentation toback up my story. Oh don't worry there is more.
Anyway let me move on to the final Eric Holden quote of the day. This
is taken from a transcript from an APA seminar which Eric Holden was thespeaker for this session. Mr. Holden, according to the transcript said
"If we can't make a post-conviction test comply with each and every one of those standardized questions and principles of a valid polygraph, we shouldn't be doing this unless we are willing to admit that the test we conduct is for utility purposes only, and not for accuracy of a professional opinion. Then we can take liberty with the testing rules; then we can take liberties with the standards and principles of practice. Otherwise, wecannot, if we're not willing to say, "This is a utility test." And I think examiners around the country, if you run a test, and youdon't believe that you defend each and every aspect of that test, then(indiscernible) mark it in the file, "This test was conducted for purposes of utility." And therefore, you are given the latitude of not having to defend that this is everything met the standards of avalidated test.
And I will promise you right now that 90 percent -- 80 to 90 percent of
PCSOT tests that you're conducting fall into the category of utility
tests, and not a test of diagnostic accuracy. "
Oh so that is what a utility test is? OK, I get it now. So, if an
examiner wants to take "liberty" with the testing rules and the
standards and principals of practice, than all one would have to do is
mark on the file. "This test was conducted for purposes of utility."
Examiners will be given "latitude" in defending the standards and
validity of the polygraph examination. I do hope I interpreted that
correctly? He sounds fair. You are right that he is trying to improve
PCSOT standards. I am still trying to figure out if he is trying to
improve standards to benefit Eric Holden or the industry.
Many of the other examiners have warned me about Eric Holden over the years, saying that Eric was only out for Eric. I defended him up until a few months ago after I realized that they were right. I have a news flash for you. I know that no one has had the sand to say this, so I will. Not many people in the polygraph industry really like Eric. They are just afraid of him. Most examiners agree that Eric is a shameless self promoter. Maybe that is why he did not come to Court. Because I am playing his game, only I have more resources than he had and a lawyer as half owner of Fenian.
Maybe you could have called me to get all the facts before you put your fingers on your little keyboard in an effort to discredit me. Lucky
for me that I expected this because my posting was designed to weed you people out. Thanks for being nothing if not predictable. Can I ask
you what kind of positive feeling you got for trying to belittle me like
this? I mean let's think about this. You come to this forum and
makinga bad attempt at belittling me. What is in it for you to do that? Did that make you feel good? Are you doing it to help save your interest in a monopolistic closed market? Or are you just that easy to manipulate that Eric Holden would offer you up just to try to see how much information I have? What was in it for you?
I'll tell you what is in it for me coming to a place that I assure you
were a last resort because my pleas for help was ignored both before
and after I filed. No one was even willing to talk to me before or after I filed. I did make attempts to the point that I went to the TAPE
president and begged him to intervene. The only person who was willing to handle this quietly was me. No one cared. No one gave a rat's ass that I was told a set of rules but wasn't told the secret rules of the game. How on its face it says free choice but when you crack the shell it's about who has the secret decoder ring to see the hidden rules. No one told me that JPCOT meant nothing and that I also had to have a license from Tarrant County CSCD, Michael Strain, Ezio Leite, Lawrin Dean, Deborah Moore, and all the rest of Gilligan's Island. None of the other examiners were willing to offer help in any manner. When I came into this, my sponsor told me that "there was more than enough business to go around for everyone". I found a county where a new guy had a chance because of a "free choice market". It was all lies and crap. You all lied to me. I was told that this was a business filled with people of integrity. I found nothing but lies, rumor mongering, greed and back stabbing.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is a basic tenant of war and the attorneys on the defense table have made it very clear that this is a war and there will be no negotiations. At least here I can speak and someone will listen. I can say that something is very wrong and needs to be changed or at the very least brought to what was on paper. Yes, I am coming to the rescue. For all the new examiners that will want to strike out on their own to grab their slice of the American Dream in afair and free market place, there is room and you know it. I welcome competition. Offer a good product at a good price and give a fair polygraph, which is not based on "gut feelings" or "utility". Treat EVERYONE with a degree of fairness and then let the examinee make the decision to have a smooth test or a bumpy test. Holden and Wood will always have filled spots but when it takes two to four weeks to get someone in, I can't help but to think that is not good for the community as a whole or public safety. I am willing to test on Saturdays and Sundays, at no extra charge, for examinees that don't want to take the time off from work during the week or test in odd hours from 6pm to midnight for the people who work 2nd or 3rd shift. That is called marketing to my target audience. The problem is that everyone has gotten so comfortable with guaranteed business from this or that person because you gave the results that they want when someone new comes in
offering a fair independent product at a better price. The new guy
can't market because by Deborah Moore's own admission, she doesn't openwhat looks like junk mail.
I was set up to fail. Michael Strain said it best when he said that
"this is the way probation wants it". I started charging $175.00 a
test. Then because the Judge refused to give me the level playing
field that I was told I would have, I lowered it to $125.00 just to compete when I got home from burying my mother in Boston. Now, therapists are putting up road blocks by being extra slow in getting me information needed to run polygraphs on their probationers who choose me and their lawyers are not advising them to stop intentionally diverting business away from me. I am an approved examiner on the list. The list clearly states that the probationer may choose from the list. Sometimes, when the probationer chooses me, he is told by his therapist that he has to use Wood or Holden until the lawsuit is complete. Therefore I have lowered my prices to $75.00 just for that group until June 2008. My prices are so low that they are all making my case for me. I'll let them figure out what that means. Let's see if they can think out of the box for a few minutes. Personally I feel that they can't even open a box without instructions in front of them explaining the process of opening a box and the legal paper work needed to open said box. (This was sarcasm people, if you were offended I don't care deal with it.)
This brings me to the point about how nice the polygraph examiners and therapists are. The day of the first court hearing, I found out my
mother suddenly died. I was an emotional wreck. I was defending my
right to do business in a free market and facing down the barrel of no
less than four lawyers that want nothing more than to "end this in a
half an hour". I was in a room of therapists and not one of them even
came up and offered any sympathy at all. There are people on death row that probably get more care or sympathy when their mom dies. One of the other examiners wanted to be dismissed for the day because he had to commute home to Louisiana. Well isn't that nice? MY MOTHER IS BEING PUT INTO THE COLD BOSTON GROUND, but I am supposed to feel bad for someone who wants to beat traffic. There was another guy was expecting a new baby in his family. AW that is so sweet. I didn't even get to see my mother one more time before they closed the lid. He gets to see that baby every day. Everyone wanted something and everyone had an excuse.
I had a dead mother and not a one person other than one examiner cared. He approached me, said he was sorry and then continued to tell me how wrong I was to do this. Nice! Yes these are the "nice" people you defend. The people that are incapable of feeling empathy or sympathy. Eric Holden was at the hospital in me and my ex-wife's room giving the Godfather Trilogy to watch and hear me announce what I was going to name my new son, but he didn't even have the class to send a card or even fax a letter of condolence.
That is when I learned the caliber of humans I was dealing with. I
dismissed a few people because they approached me with their situations that deserved some empathy. They were dealing with enough and didn't need this being added to the burden in their lives. I had my lawyer nonsuit them so they could deal with their tragic family issues with a lighter heart. It's funny how I am the one being made out to be the monster here, but the monsters are the very people that you defend. Too bad I don't know who you really are so I could avoid keeping company with you, because birds of a feather...
I remember running tests for Ms. Moore in the past. When I did perform tests for her I never heard of any dissatisfaction about my work. She knew my name. Joseph McCarthy is a hard name to forget. I am willing to bet I am the only polygraph examiner in the county named Joseph McCarthy. It would be hard to confuse me with someone else or say they have never heard of me. I have been running tests for a few years. She is THE reason I discovered this little scam when she made a choice to try taking presents from under my son's Christmas tree. That was $175.00 less to make a Merry Christmas. I bet she had no problems putting presents under the tree. But, maybe everyone else is entitled to put presents under their trees by intentionally pressuring someone else out of business and using a governmental agency to do their dirty
work because no one wants to take me on in a free market.
I do not know who you are. Why do you care what professional
organization I belong to? What do they do for me anyway other than take my money and then charge me more money to take CEU's for a JPCOT certification that means nothing, all while doing their hardest to push me out of business along with the ring leaders Holden and Wood. That is right. Everyone who is a member of TAPE should take note.
TAPE is represented by the same lawyers that represent Holden and Wood. Funny thing is that no one knows how is paying this guy. Are your membership dues going to pay for Holden's and Wood's defenses or at the very least cutting their costs at your expense? It looks like yet more corruption. Here is what is real scary to me about TAPE and their lawyer.
You would think that the president of an association that is a
defendant in a legal action would be informed to consult in the hiring of an attorney. Well there you go thinking again. Don Ramsey didn't even know until I told him that TAPE was being represented by the same lawyers who represent Holden and Wood, which means that someone from the executive committee had to have hired the guy. But who is on the defendant list and is also on the executive committee? I believe that someone from Wood's office is on the executive committee. Wow. It is another coincidence. There have been a lot of them, haven't there?
I have a great idea. Trust me, this will make it easer to make a point
and have it stick. I'm just trying to help which is more than what I
can say you are doing for me. Next time you say there is no corruption or that there is no way anyone is on the take, maybe you should make sure that there are no appearances of impropriety that would make one believe or otherwise prove that there are issues. I doubt that you'll take that advice, but at least I am giving you some.
As always, I am willing to talk. Everyone else just wants to stand
firm when this whole thing can me worked out in two hours. However, I am the one being unreasonable. You guys are the ones that don't even believe in your own product enough to step up to the plate and let polygraph help solve this problem, but you are more than happy to put a possible truthful man away for 40 years using polygraph.
Here is a simple rule. Don't make anyone do something that you
wouldn't
do yourself.
Everyday, I will document this case and post documents of public record
either here in on a web site that I am still working in getting on
line.
As of today I am naming names, businesses, and actions. I am not going
to identify examinee's or discuss any detail of any polygraph as that
would be unethical.
Next time, please get all the details before you start judging. That
way, you can defend your judgments in an argument without looking
biased or bought.
I find it interesting that 20th anniversary year of EPPA. You know most
of the old timers say the same thing about EPPA. "Polygraph examiners did everything to make EPPA happen and we had no one to blame but ourselves".
Well, examiners should notice history repeating itself here. You're
doing everything to make my case to a jury and they will have no one to blame but themselves.
Thank you
by the way is $50 too much? Ah ok I might go as low as $25, the more you keep pissing and moaning about it I may go lower. Eventionally money will talk with these guys. Well off to see my wonderful friends at the TAPE meeting. happy reading Donna, um Ray, wonder woman, (snicker) dragon lady. Maybe we should call her the hurricane. Strong at first and then ends in disaster.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 05:34 PM
I don't agree that polygraph is no good for "really important stuff". I feel that we just need to shake ands there and agree to disagree and get back you calling this Donna person to the plate and account for her misguided statements. You with me?
I have no problem simply agreeing to disagree, but you see, my purpose here is not to sway you to any particular understand, but to help GM expose polygraph for what it is, so the 20-50 guests that are reading this at any given time understand the truth.
As far as not using polygraph for anything serious, would YOU trust an unknown polygrapher to determine your life long career choice, knowing what you know about the polygraph procedure?
Joe:
That was quite a story about Eric Holden and your situation there. But, first off, let me say I am sorry to hear about your Mother. It sucks to loose your parents, (I know from experience). Probably the biggest shocker is to come to grips with your own mortality. The dreams are kind of nice though, like you are still in touch on a cosmic level. Anyway, please accept my condolences.
Regarding your situation there, I applaud what you are doing. And, while you might not enjoy doing pre-employment polygraph tests for LE, you consider contacting the small departments in the outlying towns and offering a good, honest pre-employment polygraph for a decent price. I bet you would scare up some decent business, to keep you going until the SO stuff got sorted out. BTW, you are in for a ride (regarding the lawsuit).
You also might consider contacting the local defense bar and offering polygraph services for their clients. There should be a local association of D-FTW defense attorneys.
Good luck.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 06:46 PMQuote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 05:34 PM
I don't agree that polygraph is no good for "really important stuff". I feel that we just need to shake ands there and agree to disagree and get back you calling this Donna person to the plate and account for her misguided statements. You with me?
I have no problem simply agreeing to disagree, but you see, my purpose here is not to sway you to any particular understand, but to help GM expose polygraph for what it is, so the 20-50 guests that are reading this at any given time understand the truth.
As far as not using polygraph for anything serious, would YOU trust an unknown polygrapher to determine your life long career choice, knowing what you know about the polygraph procedure?
Because I know polygraph the way that I do, yes i would. As long as the examiner has no ties with the defendants, and the rules I layed out are followed.
I think this is day 3 of my challange. Still no takers from the "good polgraph examiners". I guess they are not as sure as I am. huh? I wonder why?
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 23, 2008, 07:44 PM[
Because I know polygraph the way that I do, yes i would. As long as the examiner has no ties with the defendants, and the rules I layed out are followed.
No, no, no, you don't get to lay out any rules! The polygrapher is God, and the machine is 95% accurate. That is what the last guy said, just a few months ago when I sat in the big chair for my last one, which, BTW, he refused to give me when I layed out my own rules.
Also, it is not improper for someone in an institutional setting like a prison counseler who has a masters degree to call themselves a psychologist, although I believe now "counseler" would be a better term. I should know, I have a BA in psychology, and was looking at getting a masters at one time.
It has come to my attention that there are people posting all kinds of nasty things about me on polygraph place. Yet for some reason I can't have access to the posts so I can respond to them.
Only two people have responded to me directly. Everyone else seems content bashing a man that is not given a chance to defend himself.
Have to be in court in the morning. I have a long day of dealing with the Fart Collectors.
QuoteIt has come to my attention that there are people posting all kinds of nasty things about me on polygraph place. Yet for some reason I can't have access to the posts so I can respond to them.
They don't let anyone post anything negative about the polygraph, either.
The polygraph community is pretty closed-minded, super sensitive, and defensive.
How do you expect them to act toward someone they see as a "turn-coat"?
I am the owner of the polygraph place and just want to clarify one thing. No one disallowed you from the private forums, I should know, I run it. You have never requested access to the private forums. If you read the instructions on the site, you will see there is a process of verification before being allowed access to the private forum. I'll post it here so you can see:
This is a secure place where Professional Examiners can talk about issues facing the industry. Whether it is countermeasures, sex offender testing, ASTM standards...whatver is beating at the heart of Polygraph. To gain access to this forum you must first register then send us an email with your username and password that you receive via email after registering. ALL EXAMINERS ARE SCREENED BEFORE BEING ADMITTED TO THIS PRIVATE FORUM. It is at our sole discretion as to whether we allow you access to this forum, so in the email with your username and password, also tell us who you are (full name), where you work, your polygraph experience and also whether you are a member of any State or National Polygraph Associations.
You have never requested access nor sent us the necessary information
Not only did you not request access, you stated in your first post on the public side of polygraphplace.com this comment:
"I will say that I will not address them on a restricted forum."
So it appears to me you don't really want access to the forum. So why come here and make it look like your being picked on?
I believe your level of anger over this issue is clouding rational thought and wisdom and has led to many cognitive distortions. For example, you seem to feel that all the examiners in the private forum were out to get you and nothing could have been further from the truth. The truth is....most, if not all of the examiners would have liked to hear your story and debate the issue, however, you are parading around like a bull in a china shop and any words of rational thought are met with accusations that we are trying to hide from the issue. That is patently false. The truth is...the distortions in your thinking and the angry attitude in which you are posting here at AP and at PP is what is alienating possible supporters to your cause within the polygraph profession. Whether you believe it or not, you have become your own worst enemy.
In summation, it is true that many at PP are now fed up with trying to have a rational conversation with you, but it didn't have to be that way.
Bill2E has posted a very clear question to you:
"What should be changed in Texas to improve on the system with PCSOT, more especially in Tarrant County."
The question now is: Are you capable of answering that question without a flood of anger and sarcasm at everyone involved?
The ball is in your court Joe.
Ralph Hilliard
The Polygraph Place
P.S. T.M. Cullen - It is not true that I don't let anyone post anything negative at PP. It is true that I don't let anyone carry on conversations in which the core motivation is solely to discredit polygraph. There is a mindset in those who have been banned at PP that will not be satisfied unless we agreed with their argument that polygraph is useless and should be completely abolished. There is nothing that could lead towards improving the profession in a conversation with that mindset, so only those people are not allowed on the board. The motive of the AP site is clear.
"AntiPolygraph.org seeks the complete abolishment of polygraph "testing" from the American workplace."
That is not the goal of PolygraphPlace, so those with that attitude and motivation simply aren't welcome.
QuoteIt is not true that I don't let anyone post anything negative at PP. It is true that I don't let anyone carry on conversations in which the core motivation is solely to discredit polygraph.
IOW, you don't allow an open discussion about the polygraph, and don't want both sides of the argument presented.
Suppose a recent "false positive" posted on your board looking for answers. Specifically, why they failed the polygraph despite the fact they were telling the truth.
If someone posted what the NAS report had to say about the topic of "false positives", would you allow it?
Or do you feel the NAS was out to "discredit the polygraph"?
QuoteThere is a mindset in those who have been banned at PP that will not be satisfied unless we agreed with their argument that polygraph is useless and should be completely abolished.
What is wrong with presenting both sides of the argument, and letting people (e.g. those false positives looking for answers) make up their own minds?
Or is polygraphy some kind of "secret society" like free masonry, or something?
TC
Not only is Antipolygraph.org effecting polygraphers, now it is apparant that this site is having a delitarious effect on PolygraphPlace! Wow George, your reach is expanding...
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 29, 2008, 03:56 PMNot only is Antipolygraph.org effecting polygraphers, now it is apparant that this site is having a delitarious effect on PolygraphPlace! Wow George, your reach is expanding...
n.p.c.,
I am anti-polygraph.org's biggest promoter (amungst polygraph examiners, that is!). I want every examiner to visit these pages, read TLBTLD, see what you (people) are posting and writing about. It will, in the end, make us better examiners.
Sackett
P.S. the only way this site could or would have had an effect on polygraph would have been to stay underground. Then, we as a profession would never have known your playbook. But, as you would have it, it is all here to read. Life is good for us, keep talking... You're just pissed off we don't address your CM training and our techniques in catching and identifying them.
Fighting Irish Wrote:
Because I know polygraph the way that I do, yes i would. As long as the examiner has no ties with the defendants, and the rules I layed out are followed.
I think this is day 3 of my challange. Still no takers from the "good polgraph examiners". I guess they are not as sure as I am. huh? I wonder why?
Come on McCarthy, be serious! All can see what you are clearly doing.
What do you plan to do whe this suit gets dismissed?
Did you tell everyone that your wife lost her job at the Law Firm over alleging this outrageous suit?
Did you tell everyone that one of your Polygraph School's co-instructor didnt want to graduate you?
Did you tell everyone that you were dismissed from your last job as a polygraph examiner with Don Ramsey of TEXAS (DALHOUSEY) and deemed incompetent by your employer?...that's why you started this business and that's why your wife is working with you.
Did you tell everyone about your reception at The Texas Assoc. of Polygraph Examiners?
Why arent you posting "Daily" as promised?
What are you going to do when this fraudulent lawsuit gets dismissed and the MULTIPLE countersuits come in to play?
Fighting Irish name is as close as you'll ever be to Notre Dame..
You are sooo outrageous that you even make AP persons embarrassed to side with you...
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Apr 30, 2008, 06:23 PMFighting Irish Wrote:
Because I know polygraph the way that I do, yes i would. As long as the examiner has no ties with the defendants, and the rules I layed out are followed.
I think this is day 3 of my challange. Still no takers from the "good polgraph examiners". I guess they are not as sure as I am. huh? I wonder why?
Come on McCarthy, be serious! All can see what you are clearly doing.
What do you plan to do whe this suit gets dismissed?
Did you tell everyone that your wife lost her job at the Law Firm over alleging this outrageous suit?
Did you tell everyone that one of your Polygraph School's co-instructor didnt want to graduate you?
Did you tell everyone that you were dismissed from your last job as a polygraph examiner with Don Ramsey of TEXAS (DALHOUSEY) and deemed incompetent by your employer?...that's why you started this business and that's why your wife is working with you.
Did you tell everyone about your reception at The Texas Assoc. of Polygraph Examiners?
Why arent you posting "Daily" as promised?
What are you going to do when this fraudulent lawsuit gets dismissed and the MULTIPLE countersuits come in to play?
Fighting Irish name is as close as you'll ever be to Notre Dame..
You are sooo outrageous that you even make AP persons embarrassed to side with you...
Half truths and lies. Ok Little Wood. I can see that is the game you want to play. It's all about who gets the last shot in any fight.
That is the answer to my challenge? You can do better than half truths and lies, can't you?
Tell them about TAPE? Do you mean your little ambush? The one you were chewed out about by Don and Ray for being the cheap shot artists you are?
Does the light on your practices really hurt that much? You have to resort to name calling half truths and lies. I can tell you why we'll fight to the end. Can you tell me why you will fight to the end? Other than you hate me for exposing you.
I can give you reasons why the suit will survive. Can you give me reasons why it will be dismissed?
By the way you need to look up fraudulent you pinhead. I have clear causes of action which your desperation proves you're afraid of.
This could all be done in a few hours; you are the one that wants to stretch this for months.
Fat-ing Irish wrote:
I can give you reasons why the suit will survive. Can you give me reasons why it will be dismissed?
By the way you need to look up fraudulent you pinhead. I have clear causes of action which your desperation proves you're afraid of.
This could all be done in a few hours; you are the one that wants to stretch this for months.
Please give us the reason it will be dismissed? You appear to seem entitled to business and because you hang your shingle out you feel as if you DESERVE business. Now, kicking and screaming :'( you are trying to force people to have a business relationship with you... All can see throuh your transparent suit
you have distanced yourself from those you desire to be next to...
You are the only one that appears "Desperate"
again, tell everyone about the firing of your wife, the firing of you and the fact your co-instructor at Skyhawk Poly Institute wanted NOT to graduate you...
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on May 01, 2008, 11:41 AM
again, tell everyone about the firing of your wife, the firing of you and the fact your co-instructor at Skyhawk Poly Institute wanted NOT to graduate you...
Perhaps it was because they realized that Joe was too honest to be a polygrapher. ;D
Perhaps so..are they taking applications at your place of work? maybe you would like to put up with his whinning...
Before addressing ole Baby Huey on my next post, I just wanted to give everyone an idea about what is at stake here which will make someone lie and try to drive a wedge between friends. I want everyone to see what may motivate someone to defame my character. Just follow the greed.
The "good ole boys" system in Tarrant County Texas must give way to a system where this profession's integrity is first and foremost. We must put forth a professional public appearance that will demonstrate that we can all truly work together rather than bicker amongst ourselves.
We must be a profession where we can address all issues fairly and resolve them before they get out of hand. We must be a profession where entrepreneurship, healthy competition, and a fair market place benefit the public rather than figuring out a way to smother the basic principles of the American economy to unjustifiably enrich the few.
There are only about 240 licensed polygraph examiners in the state of Texas. Texas is a big ass state. For those who have never been here, I can tell you the DFW area is big enough that it could take over an hour to drive from one end of the DFW area to the other easily. In the time it would take to drive through Texas from north to south, I could drive through the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York and into New Jersey. Trust me. There is more than enough business to go around for everyone.
What I find hard to believe is the math. Let's do some math for a minute. I am ONE polygraph examiner. My office can only fit ONE examiner and I have no plans to taking anyone on as another examiner. I am a one man show and that is the way I like it. The other offices have four to seven examiners.
I plan on catering to only PCSOT, pre-indictment, and the occasional infidelity test. I will not touch EPPA and have no desire to go after law enforcement/public safety contracts at this time. It is recommended that an examiner run no more than five examinations a day. At my last place of employment, five a day was not out of the norm. I got burned out fast. I cannot see how people do it consistently without affecting the tests long term. If you are running EPPA tests, then five is maximum number of test that you can conduct. So let's just use the number 5 as a baseline.
There are five slots a day per examiner in a five day work week. This adds up to twenty five spots per examiner per week. Let's multiply that by four examiners, which would equal 100 polygraph examinations for that office in one week. Then multiply that by four weeks and that is 400 examinations per month. Of course, these are average numbers. It is my understanding that Holden's office and the Woodies office have about a two to four week time period before appointments are available.
My office has one examiner. I plan on running no more than three slots a day. Multiply that by five days which equals fifteen examinations per week. Multiply that by four weeks and that would equal sixty examinations a month. Of course, this is an average figure and I have no waiting period. Even if I were to run five tests a day, then we would be looking at one hundred tests a month.
OK. They have 400 slots a month and a two to four week waiting period. I only have sixty to one hundred slots a month with no waiting time. Wow. It sounds like I would be robbing the other companies by putting a huge dent in the market. That is what it would seem.
Approximately fifty to sixty percent of their 400 tests per month are pre-employment examinations. The remainder is EPPA, domestic, criminal specific for law enforcement, pre-indictment tests for lawyers, and PCSOT.
Why is a company that is running this many examinations from a wide and established customer base so afraid of little ole me? Someone who would be whistling zippidy do da out of his ass if he could get five tests in a week right now. Someone who plans on running about fifteen to twenty tests a week. Why are they so afraid of one examiner who is not as experienced as most of them, other than Baby Wood? Why are they so afraid of competing with someone who is not well established in this area? If their prices were fair then why are they so scared? If they treat their examinees with dignity, why are they so scared of me? If they were on time for most of their polygraphs and did not leave examinees sitting in a waiting room for an hour or two then why are they so scared of me? If their charts were clear enough that they had a low inconclusive rate, why are they so scared of, you guessed it, ME?
Let's dissect this. It is time to do some math.
Let's say that each one of their four examiners runs two sex offenders a day at the $200.00 going rate during a five day work week. That is $8,000.00 a week. Multiply that by four weeks and you get $32,000.00 a month.
Let's say that each examiner runs one pre-indictment exam a week at $700.00, which is what I heard Holden still charges. That is $2,800 a week and $11, 200.00 a month.
Let's say that each examiner runs one infidelity test a week at $400.00 for each test. That is $1,600.00 per week and $6,400.00 per month.
Let's move on to The Texas Board of Nurses Examiners. This test is about $300.00. Let's say that each examiner runs two of those a week. That is $2,400.00 per week and $9,600.00 a month.
Let's say that each examiner runs one EEPA test a week at $400.00. That is $1,600.00 a week and $6,400.00 per month.
All of this fills up fifteen spots per examiner leaving ten spots for pre-employment per week per examiner. Pre-employment tests are about $100.00. If each of the four examiners runs ten pre-employments per week, then this adds up to $4,000.00 per week and $16,000.00 a month.
Of course, this is all an average. But, keep in mind that Holden and the Woodies are filled two to four weeks in advance. That is why I do a four week projection.
Each office makes $20,400.00 a week. Multiply this by 4 and you get $81,600.00 a month. DAMN. I have never made that in a year in my life! I wonder what that would be per year. I will let my fingers do the walking on my trusty calculator. All this adds up to approximately $979,200.00 per year. I bet that is bigger than some third world countries yearly budgets.
The average cut for the examiner is fifty percent. That is $489,600.00 for the examiners. Divide that by four and you get $122,400.00 per year per examiner. Of course, this is running the maximum number of tests. The maximum is probably a fair estimate due to their calendars.
This means that the company makes on average of $489,600.00. For the sake of argument, let's say that $200,000.00 per year is spent on office and business expenses. That still leaves $289,600.00 for the company. Uncle Sam takes his portion, which leaves approximately $150,000.00 of profit.
These are all hypothetical figures. But holy bat crap batman!
And the Woodies complain about legal fees. I gave them a way out last week with no harm and no foul. It would have only cost him a few cents for paper, $5.00 for a notary stamp, and one hourly fee from his attorney.
Let's go over my math.
Let's say I use the maximum slots. Right now, I charge $125.00 per sex offender test. I used to charge $175.00, but I had to lower my prices to get people in the door.
Let's say that I do five PCSOT tests a day at $125.00 each. That would be $625.00 a day, $3,125.00 per week, and $12,500.00 a month. Oooooo yea baby. That would be freaking sweet. It would be approximately $150,000.00 annually
Let's look at my expected reality. I ran five tests a day for a while at the last place I worked. I do not want to do that again.
I plan on maxing out at three tests a day five days a week for now. That is $375.00 per day, $1,875.00 per week, $7,500.00 per month, and approximately $90,000.00 a year. That would be pretty sweet too.
Let's subtract the expenses, which are approximately $20,000.00. This will leave me with a profit of approximately $130,000.00 per year maximum and approximately $70,000.00 per year if I were to keep my desired numbers daily.
Once Uncle Sam gets his share, then I make a profit of approximately $65,000.00 per year maximum and $35,000.00 per year on the low end.
OK. I am looking at the numbers here and I fail to see where I make a dent in the market. I fail to see where I am such a threat. Why is there the fear of fairly competing with me?
Well I guess that price does have something to do with it. I have heard nightmare stories from examinees about services in general and almost all stories match up from unrelated people. I doubt there is a conspiracy of examinees that are secretly meeting to match up their stories. I can get someone into a test tomorrow if that is what is needed. I have a low inconclusive rate compared to my competitors. I am basing this on what I have heard from CSCD, examinees, and therapists. Even when I worked for my former employer, we averaged a 2% inconclusive rate.
Wow. I offer a more affordable cost, respectful customer service, clear results, and timely appointments. I guess I can see where I would be a little bit of a threat. But I still only have so many spots a week open. If they are filled, then the offenders still have no choice but to go to the other guys.
Huh... I still don't see the threat. So therefore I only see a few possibilities.
1. Power
2. Control
3. Greed
In my next posting I will explain the basics of Texas Licensing and JPCOT. My lawyer is also preparing a full explanation of the current litigation and why we feel we have a case so that I may present it to anyone who cares to listen.
As for my detractors, you will not scare me. I have looked into the mouth of hell itself by being divorced two times. Trust me. Nothing scares me anymore. I plan on taking this to the highest court allowable by law. This is something I do not want to do, but I will if I am forced.
Till then remember
Where ever you go there you are.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on May 01, 2008, 11:41 AMFat-ing Irish wrote:
I can give you reasons why the suit will survive. Can you give me reasons why it will be dismissed?
By the way you need to look up fraudulent you pinhead. I have clear causes of action which your desperation proves you're afraid of.
This could all be done in a few hours; you are the one that wants to stretch this for months.
Please give us the reason it will be dismissed? You appear to seem entitled to business and because you hang your shingle out you feel as if you DESERVE business. Now, kicking and screaming :'( you are trying to force people to have a business relationship with you... All can see throuh your transparent suit
you have distanced yourself from those you desire to be next to...
You are the only one that appears "Desperate"
again, tell everyone about the firing of your wife, the firing of you and the fact your co-instructor at Skyhawk Poly Institute wanted NOT to graduate you...
OK. Let's dance.
My wife was let go because of her connection with this action. I feel
the idea that she believes in what we are doing more than her former
employer is a credit to the term "stand by your man". She took a stand and her boss did not like it. You are just pissed because you do not have anyone in your life that believed in you that much. You need to stop kicking and screaming because you were and are unloved both as a child and as an adult.
Let's move to the next issue. It is funny but I just spoke with Don.
It seems the incompetent issue is now officially laid to rest. My
departure from Dalhousie Polygraph Services was because we had
different directions that we both wished to take. Don said that I run great tests and charts and that he has never said that I was incompetent to anyone.
Therefore, either you are lying or he is lying. I would venture to say
that it is you. I hope that you can prove that he called me
incompetent. Otherwise, we can add libel to the laundry list of
actions against you. Prove Don said that! You cannot because he did not. I was just in his office speaking with him. Are you calling Don Ramsey a liar?
You seem too chicken shit to tell these half truths and lies and not
identify yourself, but I have a very good idea who you are. A wee bit
of investigation will nail that down.
There are lots of instances when co-instructors do not want to graduate
a student. Mostly it is because of personal issues. Someone did not
like me. But I did not like him until now. He was a hard ass to try
to prepare me for an industry that is cut throat. I did not see that
then, but I see it now. I bare no ill will to any instructor at Skyhawk. It was an outstanding school which left no stone unturned regarding
polygraph procedure and technique. Was there an instructor that did
not want to graduate me? I was unaware of one. But if that is what he is telling you, then there are some massive breaches in privacy which will clearly need to be addressed with the school and instructor alike. My attorney will be on that right away. Thank you for making me aware of that.
In any event, I did graduate, completed my internship with good
reviews, and passed my oral and written state exams on the same day. I took my PCSOT training at what is arguably the best private polygraph school in the country. I passed that course as well.
I continued to work for Don for a few years after that. I got burned
out on PE tests and wished to go into a different direction so I did.
In speaking with Don this morning, he does not know who would write
what is clearly a lie to discredit me and denies that he has ever called me or my work incompetent. So unless you can prove otherwise, you should check your facts before putting pen to paper.
Don has also made very clear that he wishes to stay out of this. Who
ever wrote this should stop writing lies just to try to intimidate me.
I plan on respecting Don's wishes. If you had any class, then you
would too.
Now I am going to address the last issue and your accusations of
"entitlement" and "deserving".
I will present to every one Exhibits A, B, and D. Now follow along with me Baby Huey. I can understand how you have some difficulty in grasping complicated issues and engaging in basic problem solving skills.
Documents attachedFirst, I will point out at the top of the approved polygraph examiners
list, which is public record. These are the instructions to the
probationer.
Quote
"Your conditions to supervision require you to complete CLINICAL POLYGRAPH EXAMS." Now here comes the hard part Baby Huey so pay attention. "Select the provider of YOUR CHOICE from the list below."Wow. "Your choice" hummmm..... I am just trying to see if there is any other way to interpret this. Well you are so smart. Why don't you tell me how you interpret that? I am sure the world would love to here your cognitive thought distortions on this.
Let's move on. "You are expected to attend appointments as scheduled and complete testing in a timely manner. You are responsible for full payment of fees."
OK. Now let's pick this apart.
"Select the provider of YOUR CHOICE from the list below."Maybe this is just written in a special form of English, but I don't
think it said "Select a provider or your therapist's choice". Ah Ha.
I know. It is written in invisible ink that only some polygraph
examiners and therapists can see, but no one else can. Maybe all one needs is a special decoder ring that you can only get if you send in 50 box tops of Froot Loops and learn a secret hand shake.
Now let's move on to Exhibit B.
When I found out that the above directions were being usurped (you can find the meaning of the word usurped in what is called a
"dictionary".)My attorney emailed Mr. David Kilpatrick with Tarrant County CSCD. For those of you who don't know who Mr. Kilpatrick is, he is the number two guy in the department. As one can clearly see, the issue is addressed clearly.
Mr. Kilpatrick's response was clear and definitive. "Please give me the name of the probationer involved. We've just dealt with one of the providers on this issue and I need to know if it's the same one, same issue, or a new one". Holy bat crap Batman! This needed to be addressed once before? Well, I am very sure that whichever providers and the documentation of the incident will be clarified during discovery.
Let's continue with this exhibit. It continues "Yes the P (clearly referring to probationer) gets to choose, and both the treatment provider nor the officer can insist on one over the other." This is pretty clear language too. Are you reading something different into this? If so, please share your thoughts with us. I am very sure that we would love to hear excuses as well.
Now I will draw your attention to Exhibit D.
In this email transmission, my attorney made a simple request. "Is there any way Tarrant County can send a letter to the sex offender therapists to reiterate to them that the polygraph examiner is the choice of the probationer and no one else?"
I think this is a very clear request. Is there any one in the forum
that finds one of those requests unclear?
Mr. Kilpatrick's response was once again clear and immediate. A
response was received seven minutes from the request being sent.
"Great. Yeah, we can do that. We just sent one such letter to one provider. It's a warning letter stating that continuing to do this will lead to the suspension of referrals to them."
Wow, apparently some are
"entitled" to receive a timely response from Tarrant County CSCD but I am not. You are right. Here I am with this sense of "entitlement" to have a governmental agency enforce their rules that are set up for everyone to be on a level playing field. I am
"entitled" to ask them to send a letter that they had to send out once before because someone else was being trampled. You are right. I should not be "entitled" to equal treatment. After all, I am but a humble business man who wants the level playing field that he was told he would get. Oh wait, there's more!
"The strange symbiotic relationship between sex offender providers and polygraphists hasn't been addressed to clarify this doctrine with them, but it is way over due."
OK. Let's dissect this shall we?
"Strange symbiotic relationship between sex offender providers and polygrahers"
This would imply that Mr. Kilpatrick has knowledge that this behavior
has been going on for sometime. I bet that I am the first examiner
that has called Tarrant County CSCD to the plate on this and stood his
ground. I dare say that is the reason that everyone is so angry with
me about filing this lawsuit. After all, that is what the Chairman of the
Executive Committee of TAPE said when he ambushed me at the TAPE
convention by saying "Joe you're the one who started all of this."
That was the wrong forum and the wrong venue. He was strongly admonished after the fact.
I informed him that I merely took steps to resolve the issue and did
not start this. I then told him what a peice of crap he is and how that was a chicken S thing to do. This was not even my idea at first. Do I have proof of that? Well, let's move on with this exhibit.
At the end of the email Mr. Kilpatrick clearly informs me "This will ultimately have to be resolved by the department and/or the courts".
Whose idea was this? Our survey says................. Mr. David
Kilpatrick of Tarrant County CSCD. Ding, ding, ding, ding, and ding.
And tell us what we have for Mr. Kilpatrick today Bob. "Joe, what we
have is the correct finger of blame! This finger of blame has been all
elusive until now. But, because now one seems to want to read the court documents, we at the game show "What is the Truth" feel that this is an appropriate prize for his valiant efforts to keep Tarrant County CSCD free of corruption. There may be more prizes coming down the pike. These are not the only emails that prove this case. So tell the audience to stay tuned."
Want to blame all this on someone Baby Huey? Call David Kilpatrick. I did not even have it in my mind to file an action until I saw that
email. Even then I did my best to clear all this up with Tarrant
County CSCD. I have the emails to prove that as well. What proof, other than the discovery I feel you are trying to hide, do you have that you were not engaging in these special relationships that were unauthorized and subject to disciplinary action? I am looking forward to seeing it.
For everyone else who hates my guts for expecting nothing more than
what I was told I would get, which was A FAIR SHAKE, I think you need to put yourself in my shoes for a minute because someday this could be you.
I was entitled to get what I was told existed, which was a fair, open,
and free market place. I deserved to have issues addressed and fixed
the same way others in the past have. You are the ones that seem to
have a problem being treated like everyone else. Clearly, there are
some ethics and morals which you have not ....... adopted...... over the
years. So go back to mommy and daddy and kick, scream and cry. Go put on your; what did you call it? Oh yea MANPON! And get over yourself!
If you are trying to get me to drop the suit, threats and intimidation
do not work. It is also my understanding that for your counterclaims
to be awarded, you have the burden of proof in proving that I filed this
in bad faith. Given that the suggestion was made by Tarrant County CSCD, I doubt you can do that.
There is just one more thing. You are on notice not to make direct
contact with me again. If you have something to say to me, then send it through my lawyer and I will get back to you.
Lieguy. This is an email address that I have heard of before but I
just can not put my finger on it.
Lieguytoo. Could this imply that you are lieguy's son? Only time will
tell.
I will be around for at least a year. The rent here is paid. The only
thing I have to worry about now is overhead, which I figured I can
cover at about $50.00 to $75.00 a FAIR TEST. Maybe I will win and maybe I will not. One thing is for sure. I am around for at least a year competing with you. I may just give them away for free for a small time to see if that generates getting some people in the door. No one can turn away that price. This has only begun.
My attorney will be contacting Mr. Webster to inform you that Judges do not like intimidation tactics. I am pretty sure there is a rule about
that kind of thing. Maybe we will drag everyone in to the next date do
he can explain it to everyone.
You do really show yourself to be a coward though. I hide behind no
one. You hide behind an alias and not an original one.
F3 baby, the reason that he is trying so hard to discredit me is fear. I must have hit a nerve in my last few posts or in documents filed with the court last week.
Thank you Baby Huey for letting me know I'm hitting that nerve.
Don't worry someday some one will love you, other than you loving yourself. Or maybe you love yourself too much? Better be careful I hear you can go blind like that.
Quote from: nopoly4me on May 01, 2008, 01:25 PMPerhaps so..are they taking applications at your place of work? maybe you would like to put up with his whinning...
Since you are new here, you don't realize that I don't work for an agency full-time, and my agency already has a polygrapher anyway. But, I do own a business, and if I were in the need of a polygrapher, Joe is about the only one, in fact he is the only one that I would consider hiring. He seems like an honest person, who will answer questions honestly. I wish him well in his legal action against his detractors. It will be fun to watch.
Quote from: nopoly4me on May 01, 2008, 06:42 PMQuote from: nopoly4me on May 01, 2008, 01:25 PMPerhaps so..are they taking applications at your place of work? maybe you would like to put up with his whinning...
Since you are new here, you don't realize that I don't work for an agency full-time, and my agency already has a polygrapher anyway. But, I do own a business, and if I were in the need of a polygrapher, Joe is about the only one, in fact he is the only one that I would consider hiring. He seems like an honest person, who will answer questions honestly. I wish him well in his legal action against his detractors. It will be fun to watch.
Thank you for your kind words. I do hope I have laid out the basic issue well enough for all to understand.
How sweet..see we can all get along. Polygraph people and Anti Polygraph people in harmony, even employent possibilities for Mr. McCarthy.
I understand that his lovely wife may also be looking for a job. Maybe you can get two for one (actually those two more resemble four) since McCarthy is now the Big Lots of Polygraph and his bride is "standing by her man".
Good luck in all your efforts!
Figiting Irish Wrote:
For everyone else who hates my guts for expecting nothing more than what I was told I would get, which was A FAIR SHAKE, I think you need to put yourself in my shoes for a minute because someday this could be you.
Who told you what you would get? What is a FAIR SHAKE?
Wouldnt the whole world want what thier grandma's promised them for Christmas. But we dont congest the system with transparent suits "kicking and screaming" and crying with your pigeon eyes...
Quote from: nopoly4me on May 02, 2008, 02:57 PMFigiting Irish Wrote:
For everyone else who hates my guts for expecting nothing more than what I was told I would get, which was A FAIR SHAKE, I think you need to put yourself in my shoes for a minute because someday this could be you.
Who told you what you would get? What is a FAIR SHAKE?
Wouldnt the whole world want what thier grandma's promised them for Christmas. But we dont congest the system with transparent suits "kicking and screaming" and crying with your pigeon eyes...
I am still waiting for some intelligent answer about what is so transparent about my suit. I laid the basic foundation out and proved it with documentation. Does he have anything other than insults and lies?
Are you saying you acknowledge that these documents are true and correct and that because you have been around for such a long time, that I should just roll over and accept it? Are you saying that you support restricting business and trade practices, especially to me, and that it is intentional? And that now this restriction applies directly to me?
You want all the business don't you, even if it means backroom deals?
Only one kicking and screaming, is him.
Quote from: nopoly4me on May 02, 2008, 02:57 PMFigiting Irish Wrote:
For everyone else who hates my guts for expecting nothing more than what I was told I would get, which was A FAIR SHAKE, I think you need to put yourself in my shoes for a minute because someday this could be you.
Who told you what you would get? What is a FAIR SHAKE?
Wouldnt the whole world want what thier grandma's promised them for Christmas. But we dont congest the system with transparent suits "kicking and screaming" and crying with your pigeon eyes...
This must be the first case where Ned Webster has been his attorney. He is going to have to do better than that.
I wonder if his company has worked with Webster before or if someone referred Webster to him.
Quote from: nopoly4me on May 02, 2008, 12:46 PMHow sweet..see we can all get along. Polygraph people and Anti Polygraph people in harmony, even employent possibilities for Mr. McCarthy.
I understand that his lovely wife may also be looking for a job. Maybe you can get two for one (actually those two more resemble four) since McCarthy is now the Big Lots of Polygraph and his bride is "standing by her man".
Good luck in all your efforts!
See everyone? He is happy to resort to personal insults but can back
up his case with no facts.
He said my lawsuit was fraudulent, yet he cannot tell you why it is
fraudulent. He said that I was described by a former employer as
"incompetent". When I exposed his lie, he resorts to personally
insulting my wife, who is gainfully employed by the way. Huey got
caught in a lie.
Take note everyone. I have responded with facts and have not hidden
behind an alias. I have been up front and honest. He has been far
less than truthful and vague. I have identified myself by my phone number and email address. He hides behind his lies and uses personal insults as a tool of distraction.
It is sad to say that people like him are running the polygraph
industry for the most part. These are the men that have people's future in their hands. I wonder if they just look into a magic eight ball to make a decision ND, DI, or their personal favorite INC.
Just think. The APA protects these people. These people ask me to lay it all out and give details of why I am doing this. Then when I do lay it out and back it up with documentation, all I get in response is
insults. They are so desperate that they insult my wife. Well isn't
that classy.
I hope they keep making my case for me. I hope they keep letting me
know when they are becoming afraid of me because I am getting close. I wonder how loud they will squeal when the IRS is knocking on their doors because a lot of the sex offender money comes in cash.
I wonder how Mr. Holden will respond on a witness stand to being kicked out of the DPS School for sexual harassment. I wonder how credible he will be. What I am still curious about is why Mr. Holden still holding himself out to be a PhD in California? He is also referred to as psychologist Eric Holden on some articles and publications on the net. All of these documents are from reliable sources. Does anyone know where this PhD comes from because he doesn't mention it on his website? Can anyone tell me what his PhD is in and where he obtained it?
I bet that will get answered with more insults and personal digs.
Is this the best that Holden has? :o They have to send Baby Huey after me. Not a very good plan to... adopt..., is it?
Someone pull his string, he's not talking. ::)
i do not represent Holden, Woods or anyone else... i am not even in your silly suit... it is just funny to see how you obsess...not even AP people are sooo defensive.
You should have entered the maket at a lower price to begin with. you would'nt have time to write so much or engage in BS law suits - you would have been busy and hanging out with your colleauges. but you probably wouldnt have friends anyway...enjoy your chat rooms
u really need help!
http://www.abajournal.com/news/probationer_polygraphs_increasingly_used_to_find_parole_violations/
"Eric Holden, a psychologist and Dallas polygraph examiner, told the newspaper that he thinks polygraph tests "will become a standard for supervising probationers of all kinds."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120612863077155601.html?mod=hps_us_pageone
Eric Holden, a psychologist and Dallas polygraph examiner, says that as courts become familiar with how lie detectors are used with sex offenders, the tests will be increasingly applied to other offenders. Polygraph testing "will become a standard for supervising probationers of all kinds," says Mr. Holden, who was one of the first to use polygraphy with sex offenders in the early 1980s.
Ok all,
Just curious, is there anyone who knows where he received a psychology PhD from?
Lat time I checked the Occupations and Administrative code of Texas, One can not hold him/her self out as a psychologist unless he or she has a PhD.
If he has a PhD, why does he not list this on his website?
If he does not have a PhD; he is lying to the Wall Street Journal and to the American Bar Association Journal. If he's holding himself out as a psychologist and does not have a PhD, he just may be breaking Texas Law.
Wow! If this is true, is there anyone other than me that finds it concerning that the APA has him on any committee?
Just a thought.
:o
Hello all. Sorry I have not posted any update with some real substance and meat recently. Things are on hold temporally until the Judge rules on a hearing from last Thursday. As of the time of this post, we are still waiting on word from the Court.
Be that as it may, while thumbing my way through the file, I came across issues where the defense clearly feels they can intimidate me into silence. It is my intent on this post to clear some things up. I am sure that the individual who addressed these issues is reading this, as he made it very clear that he is hanging on every word. Therefore let me start with these words. I WILL NOT BE SILENCED BY THE LIKES OF YOU.
Secrecy is the best weapon for these people. They do not want you to see how they manipulate the market. Should anyone bring it to the public's attention, these people will lie, intimidate, slander, and libel the person speaking out until that person is silenced. I will address certain issues in an effort to make the public aware of the restriction of fair trade, development of monopolies and the attempted restriction of free speech.
In one of our first documents, I asked the Judge to restrain the defendants from libeling or slandering my attorney and me. The Judge rejected that request and stating that he was not going to restrict free speech. I feel this is a clear indication that the Judge supports free speech. Clearly this man feels that his clients can practice intimidation tactics without repercussions, but I make factual statements which I can back up and I am somehow the jerk. Apparently his clients can do no wrong.
Apparently this individual had been around for a while. He is not aware that the internet is a tool which is frequently used to shine a light into the dark corners in which greed and corruption have had a safe haven before the advent of Mr. Gore's incredible invention. The internet is a great tool in getting one's position out there quickly to a very large audience. It seems that this guy and others don't like the idea I am posting on this web site. I can understand this point of view. I will be rectifying the issue soon. Stay tuned for more information.
While it is true that a place for the presentation of facts is in a courtroom, people are not aware that anything will be presented in a courtroom unless there is a dissemination of information about the action. If the examiners and therapists had their way, the community in which they all claim they want to protect would be kept in the dark about any appearance of impropriety, possible unethical or even illegal actions which just may be committed everyday by the very people who are entrusted and counted on to rehabilitate those who have been found guilty of crimes.
One of the reasons they want to silence me is because they have been getting away with hypocrisy, bullying, intimidation tactics, and manipulation for years. They have been getting away with it because who is going to complain. No one will believe a sex offender. No one will care about the hypocrisy and which has infiltrated the containment approach to sex offender management. Now, on that note, let me make one thing clear. I am very pro polygraph regarding sex offender management. I am pro sex offender management. I am pro using any tool at our disposal we have to help insure what everyone says is their goal "no more victims". I am not in favor of cutting convicted sex offenders a break. I am not in favor of empowering them to commit more crimes. Having said that, I am not in favor of throwing away or otherwise discounting people who are capable, educated, trained, and certified to help in achieving the goal of no more victims in favor of squeezing out any real competition because they are afraid of competing in what was clearly a free market. I am not in favor of monopolies or restricting someone from plying their trade through the use of good ole boy networks, cliques, libel, slander, intimidation, or out right lies. I am not in favor of excessive billable hours. I think they don't want to resolve the issue because they have to try to talk with my attorney in good faith other than threatening us with countersuits and reprisals. They make far more money through harboring hostility, anger and resentment.
If I had done what Michael Chimarys did at the TAPE conference, my attorney would have chewed me out major and then tell the other side that the issue was addressed. Apparently, my coming out in a public forum with the documented truth is somehow "reprehensible", but when their clients try to corner, confront and intimidate me in an inappropriate forum, it is OK. Clearly the rules of what this individual thinks is "proper" applies only to me and not to his clients.
This individual would love nothing more than to have my attorney shut me up. Here is what is funny about this. If he feels that my "veritable litany of rants" were so damaging to me, why try to stop me? That doesn't seem strategically smart. I let lieguytoo continue to send private messages because I know the information buried in emails and messages for security reasons would lead me to the source of the private messages. If my enemy was hurting himself, then I would let him continue to do so. His indignation only tells me that I am on the right track. I am getting too close to what his clients are trying so hard to hide through their attempts at silencing me through intimidation and scare tactics.
This individual has also said that my postings have "been libelous to his clients". I was always told that the best defense for libel was the truth, which is something his clients don't have. It will be interesting at deposition to see what his clients say about lieguytoo. If he lies about it I'll be interesting to see how he is going to wiggle out of it when we expose him, and we will. I would love to see this individual try to prove that I intentional libeled any of his clients. That would most definitely get the attention of the mainstream press.
He has also stated "this entire lawsuit was brought in bad faith and for the purpose of harassment". Now this will be interesting to prove. First, the suit wasn't even my idea. It was a suggestion made by David Kilpatrick who is one of the two people in authority with Tarrant County CSCD. I took his suggestion and ran with it, and had his blessings to do so. So, I suggest that once again you rest the finger of blame here squarely on the shoulders of the appropriate person who is to blame. Or maybe I should post the email where he told me to go ahead and file? He has the burden of proving that I filed this action in bad faith before any of the other attorneys can collect legal fees from me. This falls into my theory from earlier that they have no intention on even trying to resolve this in good faith. The longer they keep this going the more money they think they will make. Here is an interesting question. What if I win? Then they pay you and me. Even if I should lose, they would have to prove I filed for harassment purposes and in bad faith, which they will not be able to prove. I went through the proper channels to fix the issue. A person in authority at Tarrant County CSCD, David Kilpatrick, told me that this was an issue that may need to be settled by the Courts. Lastly, both my attorney and I have been available to talk about resolving this.
There were other issues in which he tried to assault my character and that of my attorney. He knows that if this case continues his clients will be forced to answer some hard questions. He knows the light will be shed into the dark corners of secrecy and lies in which his clients have enjoyed safe harbor for years. He knows that I just might expose how I am not the only polygraph examiner hurt by this restriction of trade.
If other examiners found out what I now know, they would probably feel like there is one group of examiners taking food off their plates. That there is one group of examiners who is taking presents out from under their kids or grandkids Christmas trees. I am sure the other examiners have no clue about the massive difference in the numbers which separate one group of examiners from the rest in Tarrant County, Texas. Tarrant County CSCD knew this was happening and condoned it through their silence. And of course they would be silent because CSCD is giving the majority of the clients to a group of therapists which consist of former Tarrant County CSCD officers. Isn't that convenient? I guess exclusivity begets exclusivity, which breeds monopoly.
The numbers involved with this one group of polygraph examiners will shock you. This one group of examiners has received 80 to 90 percent of the polygraphs intentionally over the past ten months. The rest of the polygraph examiners are left with the remaining 20% with no chance to compete, period. For those who don't understand the significance of 80 percent, I will illustrate.
Let's say for the sake of argument that we are talking about 1,000 polygraph examinations. Each polygraph examination is worth $200.00 per exam. There are two groups of polygraph examiners. The first group we will call group X. There are fifteen examiners in this group. The second group of examiners we will call group Y. There are five examiners in this group.
Let's say for the sake of this argument that group X has received 80 percent of the polygraph examinations intentionally and against the written rules and policy of the Tarrant County CSCD. Group X performs 800 polygraph examinations. This adds up to $160,000.00 for this one group of examiners. If you were to divide that up by 15, that would be $10,666.66 per examiner. The number says it all... when compared to group Y.
Group Y will run 200 polygraph examinations at $200.00 per examination. This adds up to $40,000.00 for group Y. If you were to divide that up by five, that would be $8,000.00 per examiner.
Note that I am not the only person in group Y. There are examiners in group Y that have just as much experience and, in at least one case, more experience that anyone in group X. They have been established in the area and they are quality examiners. Some of them have held offices or currently hold office in trusted polygraph associations. This is no longer an issue of experience or unreasonable expectations of a new person "hanging out their shingle". This is now an issue of one group of polygraph examiners taking money out of the pockets of another group of polygraph examiners.
What is sad about this, up until now, is that everyone in group Y was unaware of how skewed the system has been. No matter how much they advertise or put themselves out there, it wouldn't matter. Offenders go to the group of examiners that CSCD wants. A therapist has been quoted saying, "You'll go to who I want you to go to because that is the way probation wants it". So, if you do not belong to this one group, it doesn't matter how experienced you are, how long you have been around, or how good of an examiner you are.
My fifth grade teacher told me something that I feel is very prophetic. "The best thing about numbers is... numbers never lie".
When looking at the numbers which were provided to me recently, all I can say is that she was right. Numbers do not lie. Here is another number seventy five percent. I will let you guys figure out what that means.
I am not here to bring polygraph down. I am here to bring it to a place where we should be by virtue of what we do for living, the straight and narrow. Sadly it is in the lair of our enemy that will allow me to defend my actions and explain why I feel I needed to do this.
I have sent in my request for access to the examiner discussion to polygraph place more than a week ago. Clearly, they have no wish to defend any of the negative things someone has to say about me, but I openly defend what I say and back it up with documentation.
I do not hide behind walls because I intentionally work in a fish bowl. I have intentionally set up my business around the belief that when you operate in a fishbowl, you will almost always make damn well sure that you are right and defend it. But if you turn up being wrong, be a man and step up to the plate. Admit it, apologize, acknowledge and move on.
Have to go all. It is getting late and I have a long day of researching past cases my defendants have been involved in. After all, I have nothing but time to do it. By the way did anyone know that Holden tried to sue someone because he hung out his shingle? It takes three to make a pattern. Either that or Mr. Holden is a perfect example of a bastardized famous Shakespearean quote "methinks Holden doth protest too much"
;D
Another place to get information on the McCarthy lawsuit.
Time to branch things out to a wider audiance. Just one more way to get the word out.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/FENIANSFIGHT/
It is just as I said it would be. Secrecy is their best weapon. They are trying to silence the truth and me. The one sided requests are coming in. They want me to give and they want to take.
I find it funny because they want me to agree to keep my mouth shut, yet they do not offer the same in return. The polygraph examiners get to continue to bad mouth me and my work with lies, slander, and libelous postings with nothing to back them up. The therapists have been a wee smarter than the polygraph examiners but not to worry. I have people who are telling me what is going on there.
I may have exposed behaviors which some of my defendants do not want the public to know about. They do not want the public, the very public they claim to want to protect, to know how the sex offender management system works, not even on an administrative level. If they are doing nothing wrong, then they should not fear scrutiny. Bad actions do not create scandals, but lies about bad actions create and feed scandals. This is why I operate in a fishbowl. I do not have financial information to hide. I do not have high exclusive client numbers to hide. I do not have any possible monopolies to hide.
The only thing I asked for at the beginning of this whole affair was a temporary injunction on bad mouthing my practice, my wife, or me. I asked for this so everything would stay about business and would not get personal. The Judge denied the order, saying that he was not going to restrict anyone's free speech. All the defense attorneys were as happy as clams about this. Now, of course, when the truth is getting out, they want to do to me what I could not do to them. It should be interesting to see if the Judge will protect their free speech but restrict mine.
Everyone expects me to be nice and cooperative, but these people just do not want to do the same in return. They expect me to give and be happy that they take.
When I step up to the plate and put the pressure on them, they want to have what they fought so hard to deny me. They have been playing a game of lies, badmouthing, libel, and denial. I stood still and took it on the chin until some people on the defense side of the suit decided to make it personal. I decide to fight back and come out swinging. All they can do is act like the bullies they are and say "no fair". I guess it is true what they say about bullies. They can dish it out but they can not take it. They should not let clients play the game if they cannot roll with the punches. These people have brought this on themselves by making this personal in the first place.
I understand that this is an adversarial system, but the behavior that the defense attorneys have been no better than that of their clients. Allowing their clients to engage in intimidation tactics and smear campaigns with no admonishment or apology is shameful. Some of the defendants behavior has been out of line and reprehensible. Yet I see no evidence that it was handled. But they want my attorney to deal with my truthful postings. I think before they come whining to my lawyer, they should make sure their own house is clean. Furthermore, the passive aggressive hostility of certain attorneys and their lack of ability to compromise or settle simple disputes made a difficult matter almost impossible. The defense attorneys ignore our requests to handle their clients' behavior by rationalizing or even condoning their behavior.
This attempt to silence me when they feel they have done no wrong is cowardly at best.
It is not cowardly just because they want to silence me. It is cowardly because they want to silence me and not their clients also. They want me to shut up and play nice but they and their clients are free to do as you wish. It is cowardly because they now want what they fought so hard to deny me simply because they just might be losing the upper hand. It is cowardly because they chastise and judge my attorney for not trying to restrain me, and believe me she has. Yet I see no chastising of their clients when they have done far worse than post truthful statements on a web site. Most of all it is cowardly because nobody knows how to simply ask nicely.
Their clients have done their best to make me out to be a devil of some sort. Apparently they are weak willed enough to buy into the brain washing. Not a one of them has even tried to have a conversation in good faith regarding any solutions to this problem with my attorney and me. I guess $175.00 - $250.00 per billable hour is better when it is 200 – 1,000 hours rather than 20 – 100 hours.
They are counting on winning this case. I wonder what they are going to do if they lose. I guess they really believe that they are going to win. After all, I have received threats from what I believe is one of their clients. They have tried to scare me with counter actions and suits. I have let them get to me. That is until I remembered something my grandfather told me. "When someone has nothing that is all you can take away from them. Nothing for nothing still leaves you with nothing."
You see, I have never had anything growing up. I was raised in one of the worst neighborhoods in Boston area. My father never owned a new car and home ownership was an out of reach dream. Throughout my life, I have never had anything which would be worth taking from me. I never even owned a car that I had to make payments on until I was 36 years old. I never had a credit card until I was 37. I have only been a home owner for about two or three years before my divorce. I let her have the house payment. I have never owned stocks, bonds, or securities. Basically what I am saying is there is nothing to take. I have lived a life owning nothing of significance. I have always lived financially month to month. The hopes of living anywhere near what I would consider comfortable is that they are trying to take away from me. If they achieve their goal to taking it away, then nothing has really changed.
I had nothing before and I have nothing now. If they win, then I will have nothing in the future. Once again, nothing for nothing equals nothing. It is hard to enforce a judgment from someone who is judgment proof. That is what really kind of baffles me. They want to counter sue me for attorneys' fees. If they win, then I am out of business because it does not take a rocket scientist to know that retaliation from the county, therapists, and polygraph examiners will be swift and harsh. If I am out of business, then I am out of a job. I do not see many jobs in the classifieds for a polygraph examiner. With the economy being what it is, I will be forced to either move or find work in another field. In either case, I would be forced to start over. I am 38 years old. Looking at my family history my life is more than half over. Basically I was born with nothing, raised with having nothing, had nothing as an adult, and there is a chance that I will die with nothing. Many people did and still do lead happy lives just doing their best month by month trying to make it easier for their kids to grow up and have the things which their generation did not have. Most people like this still die happy and without regret. I realistically expected nothing more than that out of my life so they will not be taking anything away from me.
I no longer have any fear of countersuits because you cannot collect what is not there. I hear lawyers say this all the time. "You can't get blood from a stone." Well people, I am the proverbial stone.
Here is the bottom line regarding who wins this action. If I win, and I think I will, then the defendants have to pay their attorneys and me. If they win, then I will be out of business, which is what they wanted in the first place. They will have to prove that I filed this lawsuit in bad faith, which I very much doubt they will be able to do. Their clients pay their lawyers for every billable hour. If they do win attorney fees, they cannot collect money from someone who has no money, who is heavily in debt because of a failed business venture, and who will more than likely never have any money. If the defendants already paid their lawyers, then I hope they do not hold their breath on getting anything back. If the defense lawyers are working this case in the hopes of collecting fees, there is a better than average chance that they are working this case pro bono. A few of these attorneys look a wee too high maintenance to be doing pro bono work.
If they want to try to take something from me that I have never had, then take a shot. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. They have nothing to gain and much to lose. I have every intention on fighting this until all legal remedies are exhausted. I still have a few cards up my sleeve.
It almost seems like they want nothing more than to put me in my place and teach me a lesson. But is it the lawyers who want to teach me a lesson or is it the defendants? If it is the lawyers, then maybe they are too close and getting a wee too personal being wrapped around the axle. If it is their clients, then maybe the lawyers need to ask themselves one question. Why is everyone so afraid of one polygraph examiner?
They expect me to give yet they offer me nothing in return. Maybe they should all take a lesson from one of the other therapist's attorney. She has been kind, courteous, professional and respectful. Out of all the attorneys, I feel she has more a right to treat me the way the others treat me. Instead, she has done nothing but impress me with every dealing. Hell, the person who was the match that helped light the fire just may get out of this with barely a scratch. I honestly cannot say that for the rest of them. If this therapist was smart enough to hire an attorney who knows how to deal with people, then I guess she cannot be all that bad. I can honestly say that there is no reasonable request that this lawyer could make that I would not consider and mostly agree to.
As long as these deals are one sided, I will not be making deals. I will not be the only one who will have my first amendment rights taken from me. If you want my first amendment rights, then come and fight me for them.
On the other hand, should they want to negotiate a formal temporary truce and ceasefire, come with your hand out, not raised. Treat me like a person and not like some surf. They should not underestimate me just because they are more educated than I am. Once again, just because you are more educated does not mean that you are smarter. I am not impressed or intimidated by bar cards, PhD's, MA's, LPC's, etc.
You know what? I have a better idea. If they want me to enter into any agreed order or judgment, then let's do an agreed judgment that JPCOT is the only approved polygraph list in Texas and let the free market work. The rule was in place before it started to be changed while I was demanding that rule be enforced. Come on people, it is indisputable that the rule was in place. The rule would not have been looked at if I did not start demanding that it be enforced.
An agreed judgment to put things back to where it should have been is not only the right thing to do, but it is what they all should have been doing in the first place. It would also take care of the biggest cause of action and some of the defendants can go home. It is just that simple. We can weed down the defendants so the only thing that is left to clear up will be the antitrust issues. David Kilpatrick and Tom Plumlee will not have to go to Court anymore and the Attorney Generals' Office can move on to bigger and better things until the next legislative session. TAPE can be dismissed and they can move on with what ever it is that they do. A few therapists and polygraph examiners can be dismissed and move on.
I think this is actually very simple. Let's just agree to bring everything back to the way it should have been and the declaratory judgment goes away. I just do not get it. If they are so good and I suck so much, why is there a fear of competing with me?
Having said that, I feel that the antitrust action is going to be a wee more difficult to dispose of. I plan to go the distance. Because of the numbers, I am very confident that I can prove antitrust violations. I am confident with the declaratory judgment as well, but that just happens to be the easier of the two to settle. If anyone had actually tried to talk to my lawyer and me in good faith, then they would have known that.
The bottom line is do not come to me expecting me to give without something to offer. There are only two entities that I will take that from - charities and the Catholic Church. Everyone else has to give to get.
I just wanted everyone to know in case I suddenly disappear off the message board. I do not want anyone thinking I ran away from this. I am sure that one of their little lackeys would try to convince you of this. They have already tried in their having a little misinformation campaign.
If suddenly I am not posting or details are vague, then it means they are afraid of the truth and have managed to bury it. It will mean that they have a right to their first amendment right to free speech, but I do not have a right to mine. It means that they will have free game in doing everything possible to make me go away or out of business and I cannot make anyone aware of the corruption.
I will not be silenced willingly outside the courtroom. I will enjoy being an American Citizen with Constitutional rights until they take them away from me.
If they want to send me a one sided deal and expect me to blindly agree, then they are out of their minds. Should that be the case, I will force them to fight to take the rights from me that they fought so hard to keep for themselves and the Judge protected. I will fight it with every resource at my disposal, including, but not limited to, asking the ACLU for help.
fight Irish, are you the one with lawsuit in TX? I am from TX also, I had another post on what transpired with a friend of mine. I'm beginning to think that the whole thing is a big money making rackett.
He had no choice of Examiner, his polygragh also ordered by a therapist to his PO, with no prior evaluation or exam. He was in prison for being a drunk and scrapper, not a sex offender. But, when you are on Parole in TX, they can pretty much do whatever the heck they please.
Seems more like legal organized crime to me. If I remember, you stated some figures. I can add some more. The therapist also get 35.00 per person, per session. On average, that's 8 folks. That's 280.00 twice a day. 560.00, x 5 that's 2,800.00. Now, we all know how big TX is. Most of these people will have to travel some distance, 45 miles in friends case. So, it's also helping to keep the "Oil Mongers" wallets fat as well.
Now I am no fan of polygraghs. But I can certainly see the point of your case. Good Luck going up against the "good ole boys"!
Fighting Irish, My other post is under "polygragh can ruin a persons life". Maybe you could refer me to someone here in TX who could help. Here's a tidbit of info you may find interesting....the referral and counseling services here are RIGHT NEXT DOOR to the Parole Office! Isn't that conveinant?(sp?)
cat
I asked you a question on the other post and you haven't answered it. So I'll ask it here. Was there a plea, by your friend, that included SO treatment? Did the court order SO treatment? If the answer to both is no, then your friend is being treated illegally. And no they can't do just anything they want. If the answer is yes to to just one, then your friend has no recoarse but to comply.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on May 20, 2008, 04:44 PMfight Irish, are you the one with lawsuit in TX? I am from TX also, I had another post on what transpired with a friend of mine. I'm beginning to think that the whole thing is a big money making rackett.
He had no choice of Examiner, his polygragh also ordered by a therapist to his PO, with no prior evaluation or exam. He was in prison for being a drunk and scrapper, not a sex offender. But, when you are on Parole in TX, they can pretty much do whatever the heck they please.
Seems more like legal organized crime to me. If I remember, you stated some figures. I can add some more. The therapist also get 35.00 per person, per session. On average, that's 8 folks. That's 280.00 twice a day. 560.00, x 5 that's 2,800.00. Now, we all know how big TX is. Most of these people will have to travel some distance, 45 miles in friends case. So, it's also helping to keep the "Oil Mongers" wallets fat as well.
Now I am no fan of polygraghs. But I can certainly see the point of your case. Good Luck going up against the "good ole boys"!
I hear and validate your feelings of anger regarding your friend's situation. I can't agree with you that it legal organized crime. I will agree that there is a good ole boy's network.
I'll read your post and digest it. If he failed then a retest may be asked for. I don't know anyone in your area, so I am not sure I can help with a referral. I know someone in Houston, me in Grand Prairie, but the best examiner in the state is by far Don Ramsey in Richardson.
I'll get back to you soon
Twoblock
My friend only went before the jugde for misdemeaner assault. Nothing was ordered by a judge at all. He already went up before the parole board and was sentence to ISF for 7 months. His parole officer says all he had to do was be charged. It didn't matter what the D.A. , the Judge, and the parole board he went before had decided.
Apparently, here in Tx, a parole officer can order evaluations and polygraghs for whatever reason, when ever they choose. I've been trying to find out ways that he can recieve an independent evalution.
Parole is certainly not giving up any info. I still think it's pretty fishy, the therapist and evaluation center, right next door, in the same bdlg.
I've been trying to search more into the legallities on the issue, but, I really have no clue where to look. I know it would be under Criminal Law, I just don't know what part. Maybe you could toss me a clue or two.
And thank you very much, your input was greatly appreciated! :)
Fighting Irish
Thank you for the Info. Someone in Houston would be good, it's only 108 miles from where we are at. As you well know, here in TX, 100 miles ain't nothing! ;D
Personally, I'm not a big fan of polygraghs, seems they're over used and abused. There is a very closed ring inside the TDCJ, as you are well aware of. Austin, of course, is a little different. The Parole personnel(sp?) on the Board the my friend went before, were out of Austin. I have recently discovered though, is that his PO sent this so called evaluation, up to a different parole near Houston. Apparently, someone who was going to give her the result she was looking for.
It is not right that PO's and therapists get to choose where a person goes to get what done. What you are fighting against in Dallas I think, is going on everywhere in the whole state. We are suppose to have free enterprise in this country, reguardless of what you do for a living, I still wish you luck with your lawsuit.
cat
Based on your what you said, my advise stands. Have your friend cantact a lawyer. I don't think a PO can order anything outside of a judge's or parole boards order. Especially SO evaluation and treatment. The PO is dead wrong. Just because your friend was charged with a sex offense is not a legal reason for the PO to order SO treatment. There has to be a guilty conviction by a judge or jury. If there's no conviction, the charge is supposed to be dropped.
Most first consultations with a lawyer is not charged. They will decide if there's a cause of action. Then they will give an hourly price. If the lawyer decides your friend is illegally being raked over the coals, he/she might want to take it on a contingency bases if they think there is money to be had. If the price is too high, consult with the ACLU. They are pro bono.
You are welcome to PM me from this site. However, I might be leaving, on a moment's notice, for a summer in Alaska any day now.
Twoblock
Thank you for the more detailed reply. It didn't even occur to me to go to the Civil Liberties union. I will definately look into it.
Enjoy your trip to Alaska. I've never been there, but folks I know that have gone there say it's beautiful.
cat
You're welcome.
When you get a determination as to the limit of a PO's authority, please let us know. Having not researched Texas statutes, I still do not believe a PO has the authority to administer their own form of punishment. And I still think your friend has a Federal Constitutional violation lawsuit.
BTW - I do not go to Alaska to vacation. I go to work. The years I've been going there I have only had time for one fishing trip. Caught 25 salmon in one day.
Twoblock,
This is something that can also be federal? I thought the states had control over all these kinds of issues, unless it invovled a federal offense.
When I find out exactly what kind of limitations a PO here in TX has, believe, I'll post every last detail on the subject! ;)
Alaska.........if you keep going back you must enjoy the work(or pay).
25 salmon, very impressive. I'm lucky if I catch 2 catfish! ;D But, I did go fishing in the St. Lawrence Seaway once and caught some Pike.
cat
Not knowing the full details of the case, I can only say if a constitutinal right has been violated then the venue belongs in the federal courts. The ACLU can help determine that.
At this point in my old life I work for my health. (Money's not bad either). It keeps my musles about 20 years younger. Can't attest to the mental aspects. I have been contemplating selling my gold mining operations but hell, I just can't sit on my butt and do nothing. My wife retired a month ago ar 72 and she is already looking for something worthwhile to do. She can't sit on her butt and do nothing either. She could spend the 100 days with me in Alaska, the total mining season, but she's afraid she will be made the camp cook even though I have one hired.
Another interesting update.
The Sunset Commission just released their report. For those who do not know who the Sunset Commission is in Texas, the Texas Legislature created the Sunset Advisory Commission to identify and eliminate waste, duplication, and inefficiency in government agencies.
This year one Agency which they were obligated to look at was the Texas Polygraph Examiners Board. What they found is interesting to say the least.
Here is the commissions key findings
1, Regulation of polygraph examiners continues to be needed.
2, Portions of the Board's licensing exam for polygraph examiners are overly subjective, and the Board inconsistently applies grading standards.
3, The Board's enforcement efforts do not adequately protect the public.
4, The Board has made several decisions potentially based on interests of Board members rather than on the protection of the public, and has adopted rules that create the appearance of a conflict of interest.
5, The function of polygraph regulation is not well placed at DPS.
6, Consolidating the agency's functions with the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation (TDLR) will resolve problems with licensing and enforcement, and remove potential conflicts of interest.
I can't say that points 3 and 4 shock me. I am shocked by what I learned what brough them to those findings.
But you be the judge. Here is the link to the report.
http://www.sunset.state.tx.us/81streports/dps/dps.pdf
The Polygraph Examiners Board turned in a self report also. Parts of it really help my case I think. Once again you be the judge here is that link.
http://www.sunset.state.tx.us/81streports/peb/ser.pdf
Twoblock,
I found the nearest ACLU office in Austin, so we'll be making a trip up that way soon.
I've heard of that Sunset deal that Fighting Irish is talking about and will also be looking into that to look for clues in the legalities. Tx is something else in the Criminal Justice Dept.
You should convince your wife to go, If she doesn't have to cook she might enjoy the mining!
Hello All
You know, the freedom of information act can be a wonderful thing.
Because I have been unwillingly silenced, for now, there are certain things which I cannot say here in a public forum. The manner in which I was silenced was cheap and done through the back door, but rest assured there will be no more deals made without my personal seal of approval or a Judge's Order. I doubt that my opponents know how to ask nicely for anything, so I guess a lot of time will be spent at the courthouse. Someday, they will learn that asking rather than demanding will go further, but be that as it may.
As you all know, Eric Holden has made claims that he is a psychologist in the Wall Street Journal and other publications. I began a search to find out where he got his PhD or if he was a licensed psychologist. What I found did not surprise me.
Attached to this posting is a letter from the Texas State Board of Examiners of Psychologists, and big shock, they have no record of Mr. Holden being a psychologist. I have also obtained (not through the discovery process) a biographical CV which lists a lot of information which is still being confirmed or refuted. All I can say at this point about some of the information on Mr. Holden's CV is that things are not looking good. There is a chance that Mr. Holden may have a severe case of LLPOF. That CV along with a full investigation of the information on the CV will be released on another posting. After all, I have nothing else to do but dig a little deeper. Because I was a private investigator, I know where to dig and how.
Don't worry. I found some dirt on the others and that will all be released in my time. I just have to find some more pieces to the puzzle before I can confidently come out with it. Rest assured. I will find those pieces.
For instance, I know who has written some harassing private messages to me. I just want to wait to see if this person fesses up to it on deposition. Sometimes it's good just to let them trap themselves. I know about questionable issues regarding money of which I am still gathering information. I am learning more regarding the referral process and how it works. I am learning that there is a high rate of inconclusive tests and learning why that rate is so high. The more I learn, the more steadfast I become in my belief that this business needs to be cleaned up and brought back on the right path.
The best part about it is that I have nothing but time. The defendants have been very successful at scaring possible clientele into not using my services under threat of discharge from group or revocation. One thing that they don't understand is that the more I am not testing, the more I am digging for the truth. I guess I should thank them for giving me time to build my case.
Anyway, take a look at document which proves that someone has been lying about his credentials.
By the way, there is one lawyer who has said that I have been posting libelous information about his clients. Well, I have been told that the best defense to libel is the truth. I have documented everything, which is more than what I can say for one of his clients who has posted earlier. I can't wait to see if he lies about it.
They can't silence me completely, but I am sure that they will try.
To my knowledge, Eric Holden has never used the PHD title in any manner. News Agencies and reporters often get their facts wrong, If you look at this home page you will not find the PHD you refer to anywhere.
It is illegal for one to put him or her self forward as a psychologist without a PhD or one of the listed acceptations in the law.
Although I will agree with you that news agencies and reporters get things wrong, that issue is quickly resolve when looking at the California Association of polygraph examiners web site where it is documented.
"Several examiners in California are Certified by C.A.P.E. to conduct sex offender polygraph examinations and have completed a 40 hour C.A.P.E sponsored training program presented by Behavioral Measures (Eric Holden, Ph.D.). Those examiners have taken and successfully passed a written examination following the completion of the course. A Certificate of certification in Sex Offender Polygraph Examinations has been awarded to those members and each has agreed to follow the Guidelines for Clinical Polygraph Examination of Sex Offenders adopted by C.A.P.E. in 1997."
I am sure he knows about it because it was mentioned in a complaint made to the Texas Board of polygraph examiners in May of 2007. He has had an entire year to inform CAPE that he is not a PhD.
Another polygraph examiner has the following information on his website.
"Eric Jay Holden (Past President of APA) , Psychologist, and Polygraph examiner taught the course. He is a well known Expert in the field of Psychophysiological Detection of Deception (PDD)."
There are a number of other sources where is referred to as a "psychologist", no where does it clarify that he is not a licensed "psychologist". It's just dishonest on its face. There are other issues regarding his biographical information which is not checking out. In fairness to him as a former friend, I will not discuss those issues until I backup the research I have already done.
If the press has it wrong I don't se him jumping to correct them. I would if I were a LPC. Implying that one is a psychologist could jeopardize that license.
This is a polygraph examiners list which was handed to a Tarrant county probationer recently. Funny it says Michael Strain at the top and not Tarrant County CSCD. It's funny how the list contains only three polygraph companies when The Tarrant County CSCD "official" list has eight at my last count. But then again I have not received an updated list in some time. I guess discovery is a one way street.
I wonder how many "lists" Tarrant County CSCD has. Is this the original list or is this a hidden "secret" list? And why is Tarrant County Handing out this list in the first place with a therapists name on it? Could it be that this person may have some connection to CSCD before he became a therapist?
It's an interesting question.
Moreover, David Harris of the Texas AG's office has said that there is only one list which has been handed out to probationers by CSCD employees. Mr. Harris has also said that since this lawsuit, only the current lists have been handed out to all probationers who needed them. I can now prove that this is not the case.
The current list isn't being handed out to the probationers who were initially handed this posted list of three examiners. You'd think, persons who were handed the list with the Michael Strain letterhead would have been the first persons handed the "Official" Tarrant County Approved Polygraph Examiners List. However, I have learned that thinking like a normal, rational person does not work when dealing with people who, in my opinion, live in a world where they believe the sky is not blue. Having aid that, I think it is fair to assume that Mr. Harris means the "official" list is being handed out and not this unofficial list... which doesn't really exist... yet, here it is in my hands.
In Mr. Harris' defense he is only relaying information which is directed to him by defendant Tom Plumlee. So, therefore, one out of two conclusions can be drawn from this.
1. David Harris is lying to my attorney and me when he says there was no other list being handed out by CSCD employees other than the official list.
NOTE: Looking into the history of Mr. Harris, I doubt this is the case. He maybe a lawyer, but there is no history of any intentional behavior which could be viewed as unethical. By all appearances, he seems to be, a good and honest man. So, I doubt Mr. Harris is lying regarding any information which was relayed to him, which brings me to the next logical conclusion.
2. Someone in CSCD is lying to someone else in CSCD who in turn relays that misinformation to Mr. Harris. Mr. Harris in turn unknowingly relays that misinformation to us. Isn't that going to chap his ass when he finds out?
I can prove this list was handed to a probationer by a CSCD employee. I can also prove that this probationer has never been presented with the "official" list at any point in time by any CSCD employee or his therapist. If I could not meet the burden of proof in this matter, I would not be making such a claim.
Why would Mr. Strain's list of his "approved" polygraph examiners be handed to a probationer by a CSCD employee who is only to hand out the Tarrant County CSCD "approved" list? That is an interesting question let's explore it.
Is it possible that Mr. Strain and Tarrant County CSCD have a history with each other which goes beyond service provider/department? I of course know the answer, but I am bound by a form of an agreed gag order which I personally did not agree to, or had any knowledge of until after the agreement was made. Yes, essentially they back doored me, and I sadly let it happen. Therefore, I have no one to blame but myself for not demanding that I have impute on every agreement which will directly affect me. This was a mistake which will not happen again. Luckily I am only bound by these issues regarding discovery, depositions, developments in court, and protecting the identities my sources. Everything I find out on my own or that does not positively ID any of my sources is free game.
If they shut me up in one way, I will find another way to get the word out. Squash that, and I will find another. They are not the only ones who can play the semantics games. They think if they scare me enough or act like a bunch of holier than thou Muzzies and Gankies, that I will fall to my knees and say "oh yes, al mighty and noble lawyers. I will do as you command and not use every recourse available to me for my case. I will defer to you and you only and discard what is right and what is the truth. I will become a noble and loyal subject to you and your client's demands and I will ask or expect nothing in return. Oooommmmmmm". Hell has a better chance of hosting the Winter Olympics than the chances of me giving into one way demands made in any hostile manner. No more!
I know there are some defendants who are not living up to this agreement, an agreement which they demanded. But like many things in this case they expect me to be held to a higher standard of accountability than themselves. They are accustomed to driving on their one way streets and will force others to abide by their one way rules with the understanding that they can change the one way rules, on their one way street, anytime they wish to benefit their own needs. I said it in an earlier posting secrecy is their best weapon. As long as people are in the dark and uninformed, the total control which they enjoy will never be questioned, even if the actions of the persons in control are questionable.
I believe that is #6 on Mr. Strain's list of Criminal Thinking Distortions.
Closed Channel: Secret keeping, close-mindedness, and self-righteousness used to selectively filter incoming information. Used to avoid facing information and opinions which would require a change of attitudes and beliefs.
Wow, how did I know one of twenty of Mr. Strain's criminal thinking distortions which are a part of his program? All I can say is I have had this list for some time and it did not come from any of his clients that I have seen in connection to probation/therapy polygraphs. Let's just say that there are some skeletons which have dug themselves up. Be that as it may, the question is note how I came into possession of these and many other documents. The question is, how much more information do I have, and how much more will I find?
Ya see, their lawyers have made it clear that they want to play hard ball and make something that is about business into something personal. As the world has learned recently, it is a bad idea to play hard ball with someone from Boston. We have had a way recently of defying the odds.
GO Red Sox
Most of all
GO Celtics, I pray history will repeat itself and the Lakers get tanked.
Millie up!
http://www.star-telegram.com/metro_news/story/688609.html
story about changing polygraph in Texas.
God, some people are just amazing. There is one lawyer in this case whom I have become convinced is doing everything in this person's power to make this way more personal than what I would say is professionally appropriate.
In the "slap in the face of the day", I have to wonder if this person is intentionally lying to discredit me with no documentation to back up "fabricated" facts which this lawyer puts forward to a JUDGE. Option B is that this lawyer has no clue how to read discovery or check facts before putting pen to paper, which makes this person seem careless or incompetent.
Because this piece of fiction is a matter of public record, I will share the humor.
"With respect to Plaintiff's request for" (redacted because it is not relevant to the core of this post) "the request is on its face overly broad seeking 18 months of information (a time frame which is inclusive of 10 months during which Plaintiff was not even a JPCOT polygrapher – January through October of 2007)"
LMAO!
This is the most boneheaded lie this person has told since the first lie that this person tried to sell to my attorney and me on the first two days of this case. In between these two points there have been exaggerations, fabrications and out right lies. I will clarify why I believe this person is intentionally lying to manipulate the Judge.
If this lawyer would actually, oh, I don't know, READ discovery, then this person would see that I finished my PCSOT training in April of 2006 and became JPCOT certified in April of 2006. I have continuously been JPCOT certified since April of 2006. This person would have also seen that I disclosed every PCSOT polygraph examination within the time frame of August of 2006 to the current day. Given the fact this person had this information at the time this document was written and sent it to the court and presuming that this person has a duty to check their facts; this tells me that the above LIE may be intentional and possibly personally motivated. It also tells me that they have to resort to lying because the FACTS do not support them, and lies and manipulations are all they have left to try to keep something very big from being exposed. That is the only reason I can think of for the blatant lies and intentional poor conduct which this person has participated in.
This is the type of person which I am forced to deal with on one level or another along with the fabricated lies which this person conjures. This person needs to either learn how to read or needs to be lectured on the evils of lying.
I am sick of the lies. From here on out, I will publicly expose every lie which I can document as untrue and I will attach a name to the lie. Maybe this will act as a deterrent, in the same way they want to intimidate and scare me with sanctions and attorney fees. The only recourse I have is to expose these lawyers as the unashamed liars they have exposed themselves to be. Maybe this person needs to be chastised like a child to make this person understand that intentional lies or careless writing in public records without checking facts in good faith have consequences. I am sick of giving this person the benefit of the doubt. I have a better idea. I hope there is documentation that is in this person's possession which proves her assertion that I was not JPCOT certified between January 2007 and October 2007. Otherwise, that person is going to owe ME a very big apology.
This person has crossed the line in the sand. If she wants to make it personal, fine with me. I fight harder and dig in when the fight is personal.
Oh yes and by the way.
Lieguytoo, I have recently come into information regarding Rick Holden's Email address, which is lieguyrick@aol.com. Wow. That looks strikingly similar to lieguytoo. I bet that is just a coincidence. Wait! I have also come up with an IP address 152.27.210.118. I wonder whom that IP address comes back to? Oh well when I trace that IP address it comes back to Rick Holden with and email address of lieguyrick@aol.com.
The pieces of the puzzle are coming together. Depositions with Mr. Holden and his two sons should be very interesting. Wow, two sons, lieguytoo, one of them just happens to call himself Rick. I am not saying it is him, but, it does make one think about the links that seem to build a chain back to a possible source.
Amazing what one person can find when he has nothing but time because of other men's greed.
Public Comment to to the Sunset commission report regarding the Texas Polygraph Examiners Board
http://www.sunset.state.tx.us/81streports/dps/responses/135.pdf
we are all very anxious to hear about your suit....we havent heard from you in a while
This is what polygraph examiners do when the truth starts getting out, they threaten people. This is how law abiding polygraph examiners in Texas are. Yes what a nobel people that they are.
"Sender: LieGuyToo
To: the fighting irish
Subject: the smell of her chin?
Date: Yesterday at 9:52pm
Hey Choclate lover,
u must have been taking your meds just as requested...again..u need to be aware of your surroundings...
u have jumped into a friendly LZ but started firing...NOW it is on!"
It is now documented that my safety and the safety of my wife and family are being threatened. I am taking appropriate measures to ensure the security and safety of myself and my family.
This is an issue which will need to be addressed with the Court because I have information which leads me to believe that this is a defendant. In the meantime, I am taking necessary measures to ensure the security and safety of my family. Lieguytoo should be on notice that I will meet any attack with the necessary amount of force to stop, control, or neutralize any unlawful use of force against me or my family.
This has just gone too far. A line has now been crossed where I must act and demand action from the proper authorties.
Let this be a lesson to everyone. This is what happens to anyone who stands up to do the right thing. I guess that if I can't be silenced by their lawyers or intimidation, then terroristic threats are next followed by possible action.
What a noble, honorable and ethical profession I belong to where someone like this is allowed to do this and hide.
His private message the day before trial starts is a clear attempt at witness intimidation. This is who the public trusts to protect society from sex offenders. That trust maybe a wee mispaced.
Ok all; there is good news and bad news.
There is a partial cease fire of hostilities.
It gives me great pleasure to announce that cooler heads have prevailed in regards to the sex offender therapists. I was pleasantly surprised. A settlement has been reached which, I feel, will have a positive impact on sex offender management for all. During the negotiations, I learned that there are some whom I have misjudged. To those people, I am truly sorry and I think those people know who they are.
I feel, or I hope, they know that I did not file this for selfish reasons. I did not file this action to try to put anyone out of business. I did not file this lawsuit to be a nuisance or to harass anyone. I filed this action to get what was promised to me in the first place. I wanted to right a wrong in an effort to make the community a safer place. I feel that with the mutual cooperation of the sex offender therapists, their attorney, my attorney and me, this has been partially achieved. I feel that this settlement was not a victory for them or me. It was a victory for the community that we serve. It is a victory to fair treatment because if people are being sent into situations where they are being set up for failure, it is hard to achieve true change. It is a victory to the free market which has been the foundation of America's economy since its inception.
I feel that this settlement is a positive direction for a positive future. Now all resources will be used to ensure the goal of "no more victims." To me this makes sense. After all, if you have a police department with 100 officers available, you do not just use 50 of those officers and let the other 50 twiddle their thumbs. You use all 100 officers in a manner that will beneficial to citizens which those officer are sworn to serve. I feel that now, I hope, Tarrant County will use all the resources at its disposal and the talent which those resources possess.
I have to admit there is an unlikely hero which has emerged from all of this and who, to my surprise, became the voice of reason. This young lady stepped forward and made what was once the impossible, possible. I have been exceptionally harsh to this woman. Although war is hell, I now feel that I have misjudged this young lady, and for that I am truly sorry Glynis. You were a worthy adversary, deserving of my respect and admiration. My hat is off to you. If I were to be sued, I would hire this woman in a heartbeat. Anyone who can make me pull what is left of my hair out and turns a few more grey is someone I would hire to defend me. She is a hell of a lawyer and a skilled mediator. I thank and respect her for a hard fought battle and a fair ending. I wish her well and bare no ill will.
Nothing more will be said regarding any of her clients. It is time for a clean slate and a mending of fences. They have my respect and loyalty and I hope that we will work together in the future to make sex offender management better for the sake of all of our children.
There is one more therapist who we are still negotiating settlement.
The polygraph examiners are another matter.
Today, I came into possession of an email that was sent to TAPE members authored by Michael Chimarys. This email has made me call into question whether they can be trusted or not. I find it funny that Mr. Chimarys is quick to send out emails to rally the troops in an erroneous attempt to sway the Judge's decision, but he will not send out an email to try to find out which possible TAPE member is threatening one of their own. I guess someone who will take matters into their own hands illegally with threats of violence and racist comments is more worthy of protection that someone who takes action through proper legal channels.
Moreover he once again tells half truths.
"District Court threw out the remaining Anti-Trust portion of the law suit:"
Now let me clarify what he is saying.
My attorney filed the responses late because of an issue regarding new evidence from a witness who wished to have his identity protected because he feared retaliation from his probation officer, sex offender therapist, and/or one of the polygraph examiners. The response could not include the new evidence until this person allowed us to use his real name with his evidence. As a result there is a summary judgment against us. What this means is that the Judge determined there was no evidence of my causes of action because by filing a response to a Motion for Summary Judgment late, one is essentially agreeing with the Motions for Summary Judgment. It is a legal technicality.
Where he is incorrect is that it is over. We have filed Motions for New Trial based on the new evidence. We hoped to have it heard yesterday but many things happened yesterday, which put the Motions on the back burner. A chain of events that was so unusual that it had to be real because no one could write a script that good.
They need to understand, they got summery judgment on technicality not fact. They didn't win summery judgment because they were right or we have no evidence. They got lucky that my lawyer let her guard down and they capitalized. Its a mistake that will not happen again, I assure you.
Yesterday, the polygraph examiners and I were negotiating settlement. However, this new email falling into my hands has changed my willingness to agree to a couple of their terms.
They all seem a wee to fast in efforts to publicly embarrass me. This email just gives me further evidence that the ambush at the TAPE meeting was intentional and planned. Unfortunately I did not get that email. Furthermore, I have yet to receive any word that TAPE is at the very least looking into if it is one of their members who is not only breaking the law through witness intimidation by using threats, but is also a shameless racist. At a minimum, I thought that the vice president of TAPE would not want someone like that around.
Today, it has become clear that the polygraph examiners and TAPE want a one way settlement that will give them protection but offer me none. Thanks Mike for making me aware of TAPE's priorities. Racists and people who handle disagreements by taking matters into their own hands are far less important than trying to embarrass someone who is trying to handle something legally after trying to address the issue through all other official channels first. It is yearly dues well spent on my part. Someone has to pay for the crosses.
At this moment I can no longer trust that they are negotiating in good faith. It is clear that they just want more tools to defame my character and publicly embarrass me. I am not in the habit of handing weapons to those who seek to harm me. If they want bragging rights, then they will have to fight for them.
I was willing to enter into a nondisclosure/confidentially agreement. I can see here that these people might have a hard time honoring one of those. Moreover, he needed to ask a bunch of people to come to the trial to see the act of a coward who cannot stand alone. Me? I asked two witnesses to come and testify.
I can stand on my own. Men who are doing the right thing have no problem to stand alone. Bullies have to run in gangs so the lead bully can hide like a coward behind numbers.
What cracks me up is the numbers that he wanted he did not get. Even some of the defendants who are polygraph examiners were not there. He sent out a similar email asking for a circling of the wagons in Austin for the Sunset Commission also. The same thing happened. Four or five people showed up including me. Now there is effective leadership. Even Kelly Hendricks, the head of JPCOT, was not there.
I guess he was not there because he did not want to draw attention to JPCOT. It would be a shame for the State of Texas to learn that a private organization is licensing and regulating polygraph in the State of Texas. I guess that it would be shameful that this illegal licensing and regulatory authority is not officially recognized by the Board of Polygraph Examiners according to the Board's self-report. It would be shameful if the people of Texas learned that the members of JPCOT are not appointed by the Governor the Legislator, the Courts, or elected by the People.
JPCOT acts with impunity, autonomy and a 100% lack of accountability to any one public or private, legislative or executive, licensing board or court. It seems as if it is 100% above the law.
Even Richard Nixon said that no one was above the law. I guess he was wrong.
Mike, you keep making my point that you are making it all personal and that to you and TAPE, it is all about putting me in my place and making an example out of me so no one will dare question your authority again even if you are wrong.
I want to come to a good faith settlement so we can all put this behind us and we can ALL make a living again. Stop stirring the pot because of your own personal ego. Try acting in good faith with some honor for a change. It is hard to believe that a person who is acting like a bottom feeder like you can come out of the Navy, but then again the Marines do not take men with no sense of fair play or honor.
I have already asked TAPE to look into lieguytoo. I doubt that anything will get done, maybe they are afraid of what they might find.
Having said that, let me be clear. I will find out who this guy is. I will make his name and his affiliation very, very public. I will press charges, and I will seek libel damages against all allowable by law. If someone comes forward I can be reasoned with.
I do hope TAPE will do the right thing in regards to having a racist who threatens to take action into their own hands outside the law as a member. We have retired federal, state, and local law enforcement officers as leadership and members. I cannot believe that they can find murderers and thieves, but they cannot find out which one of their own is threatening a witness and plaintiff in a court action, which I am fairly confidant, is against the law. Or does the law apply to some and not to others?
I bet if I threatened any of them, I would already been sitting in Tarrant county Jail in the blink of an eye. Just comes to show everyone. Justice is for the rich or privileged few. The normal person should just pray for the best and hope God throws him a bone.
Here is the body of Mr. Chimarys' email.
From: Chimarys7@aol.com
To: ADDRESSES DELETED FOR SECURITY
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 6:49 PM
Subject: TAPE E-News
E-NEWLETTER
Just to let everyone in TAPE know, on July 2, 2008 the Judge of the 48th District Court threw out the remaining Anti-Trust portion of the law suit: Cause Number 048-228282-08: Joseph L. McCarthy, Individually and Doing Business as Fenian Polygraph Services vs. Deborah Moore, et al in the 48th Judicial District Court of Tarrant County, Texas.
It is not over as yet, on July 8, 2008, at 9:00 A.M. a hearing and trial begins to hear a counter claim for attorney fees, legal costs; and to determine if this law suit should be considered frivolous and spiteful.
So, as I mentioned in the last update—the dance goes on. But, we are close to the end of the tunnel.
If any of you are interested, please show up for the hearing and trial on July 8, 2008, on the 8th floor, West; at the Tarrant County Justice Center, 401 West Belknap, Fort Worth, Texas 76102.
All the plans for the seminar are basically set. This looks like it will be a really good one about juvenile sex offenders. So, you and everyone you know who deal with juvenile sex offenders should plan on attending. Pass the word around to therapists, school teachers, school administrators, CASA groups, juvenile judges, attorneys, prosecutor and defense type, probation officers, law enforcement investigators and even patrol officers.
In fact if someone can find out what the e-mail for each of these groups by organization are here in Texas let me know and I'll add them to my e-mail list so they can receive notice in the future. For now if you know any of these types of individuals pass it along to them and ask for their organizations contact points and elected officer's information. Oh, heck! Just go ahead and include dentist and barbers-they deal with juveniles don't they?
Remember to make your reservations early if you want to stay at the same location where the seminar will be held.
Also, put an "X" on your calendar for April 2009, the seminar will be held in the Houston area, it will be about Female Sex Offenders—this will be even better—so do plan on attending this one also. So, start putting the word out now so that even more people attend. As soon as we get the speakers lined up I'll put out information to everyone. The TAPE Newsletter will be mailed out early enough to let the "cavemen" who don't have e-mails know about the upcoming events. So, let everyone you can think of know about all of this. If you want me to add your friends and relatives to the e-mail list just set me an e-mail.
Remember, we have FREE parking when available, FREE bathroom facilities, FREE water, FREE advice; and if you don't show up YOU will be the center of attention that everyone will be talking about and spreading gossip. So, keep that in mind Brian Perot.
I hope everyone enjoyed their July 4th weekend.
Sincerely,
Michael Chimarys
TAPE, Chairman of the Board
to fighting irish
I have attempted to make contact with you a couple of times. I am very interested in talking to you. I have been readng your postings for several weeks and am shooked at what you say is hapening in Tarrant County. I also have some serious concerns about some of the same peopls that you have been talking about. My situation is very serious and I am not comfortable discussing any details on an open board. I understand what you are saying about people who are afraid of retaliation. Some of these people are very powerful when it comes to making life threatening decisions.
I really need some help and advice from someone who understands what is going on in Tarrant County regarding sex offenders and treatment and supervision officers and polygraph examiners.
would you please contact me so i can discuss my situation privately.
Also congradulations on your victory in court it sounds like a difficult battle. We all need people like you to stand up for those who can't or are to afraid to.
damsel_n_distress@live.com
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Jul 10, 2008, 12:11 AMto fighting irish
I have attempted to make contact with you a couple of times. I am very interested in talking to you. I have been readng your postings for several weeks and am shooked at what you say is hapening in Tarrant County. I also have some serious concerns about some of the same peopls that you have been talking about. My situation is very serious and I am not comfortable discussing any details on an open board. I understand what you are saying about people who are afraid of retaliation. Some of these people are very powerful when it comes to making life threatening decisions.
I really need some help and advice from someone who understands what is going on in Tarrant County regarding sex offenders and treatment and supervision officers and polygraph examiners.
would you please contact me so i can discuss my situation privately.
Also congradulations on your victory in court it sounds like a difficult battle. We all need people like you to stand up for those who can't or are to afraid to.
damsel_n_distress@live.com
For some reason the email I sent to you was bounced back, I'll try again.
I want to do all I can to make this program better in Tarrant County, and I think the providers are on the same page in that effort. I am happy to speak with you, as long as you understand that I am a very honest person who calls it as I see it. I won't lie to you, having said that, sometimes I can be honest to a fault.
If I see that something may be wrong and it is within my power to help, that is what I do for a living. If I see the problem is with the probationer, I don't hesitate to call the probationer to the plate. That is what I do for a living also.
Either way I hope to help you in the situation you feel you are in; if it is my power to help you. If it is not I will find someone who can help.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Jul 10, 2008, 12:11 AMto fighting irish
I have attempted to make contact with you a couple of times. I am very interested in talking to you. I have been readng your postings for several weeks and am shooked at what you say is hapening in Tarrant County. I also have some serious concerns about some of the same peopls that you have been talking about. My situation is very serious and I am not comfortable discussing any details on an open board. I understand what you are saying about people who are afraid of retaliation. Some of these people are very powerful when it comes to making life threatening decisions.
I really need some help and advice from someone who understands what is going on in Tarrant County regarding sex offenders and treatment and supervision officers and polygraph examiners.
would you please contact me so i can discuss my situation privately.
Also congradulations on your victory in court it sounds like a difficult battle. We all need people like you to stand up for those who can't or are to afraid to.
damsel_n_distress@live.com
I forgot to clear up another point, and please don't take this the wrong way. I am not trying to be a jerk here, but it may seem like it. Sometimes things like tone and inflection of voice get lost in the written word.
There was no victory for anyone. This suit has been costly in one way or the other for everyone. Even though I am going to get the fair chance I deserved in the first place, I hope, it doesn't mean I won. I sacrificed my health, my peace of mind and a lot of friendships in this fight.
My blood pressure is through the roof, I have lost a lot of sleep, and I've even had anxiety attacks. I have lost many friends and squandered away any political clout that I had. There are some relationships that I am not sure if the friendships can be mended. Some of them feel I betrayed them, all of whom I feel have betrayed me.
I can no longer trust that any trade organization will ever help me when I reach out, because I trusted one before and quickly realized that they couldn't be a solution because they are part of the problem.
Almost every examiner I look at now is someone who might be a person who can't wait to put a knife in my back.
There is also a nut job out there that can't wait for the day I am not "watching my surroundings," just so he can be a hero. Moreover some people who I knew and trusted could care less if this guy puts my lights out, which is obvious.
I am disenfranchised about the industry I work in. I've found that truth and integrity mean nothing to some people and to others, they are afraid of stepping forward because they fear be outcaste like me.
I still have to reach agreements with one therapist and all the polygraph examiners. Just when I get to a point when I am ready to accept some terms of the examiners, I find out that they can not be trusted.
They seem to feel that it is over. Well, I don't hear no fat lady. I am willing to take this to the end if I have to. If the examiners win on technicality, I'll take it to the federal level. Moreover I will appeal any counter claim judgment against me. I didn't file this at the direction of anyone but Tarrant County CSCD, lawyer and myself.
Despite popular belief there is no one behind me pulling any strings, and I could care less about any suit from the past and will not be a part of, or aid in any suit in the future. I will wash my hands of it and entertain it no more.
I after filing this suit I have been forced to walk through the nine rings of hell. As things unraveled and I investigated deeper into this, it became apparent to me that even if I had but up billboards and bought TV adds (which I plan on billboards soon), it still would have not mattered.
Any benefit the probationer would get by having another choice is collateral. Any benefit the future examiner will get in a free market will be collateral. Anything collateral is icing on the cake. Just remember it is easy for icing to go soar.
I am tired, sick, disenfranchised, and alone. What is worse, this fight, unlike what Mr. Chimarys believes, is far from over. Things have been said and that email from TAPE showed the true colors of the examiners involved. It showed what their true intent would be with any settlement which would solely benefit them. They want the bragging rights. No one including me will have any bragging rights. Its just not going to happen without a knock down drag out in that court room and in appeals courts. A one way settlement is not going to happen, period. So even if I am tired, "the dance goes on."
Even when this does end, there will be no victory for anyone. Everyone has already, and will continue to pay the piper until this is over, especially me. If going through the rest of my career being labeled a traitor is my reward for simply for standing up for myself and what I know is right; then if this be treason, I'll make the best of it.
Just know that when you do try to do the right thing, there will always be a chance that you'll be standing alone when you do it. All of your friends will be waiting in the other room waiting for the dust to settle to congratulate the party left standing, right or wrong.
DTA
I knew I was alone in a way that no earthling has ever been before.
Michael Collins, Irish Revolutionary Leader
Hi all,
Just wanted to post an email update.
I can now be reached at joey@jpcot.org.
i see that you have developed your own website. What does it stand for? Let me Guess:
Joey's Polyquackery Chikenshit Occupational Tashline
No No No!
They think I am going to be bullied. Now I will just stand more firm. This one way street the defendants want will lead to trial and maybe federal court. Either way I will get my fair trial or a fair resolution.
Buckle down everybody because it is now going to be an ulgly and long fight.
I will get to you later lieguytoo. How is your good buddy Eric Holden doing anyway.
The truce is over. If it is war they want, than war they shall have.
The pipes are playing.
Joey@jpcot.org
OK everyone, here we go again. Tomorrow will be another day at court. The polygraph examiners, again, are seeking any loophole they can find to keep this from going to trial. This is funny to me because I was recently told that some of the defendants want to "teach me a lesson." I am trying to understand this point of view. They want to teach me a lesson; and they want to do it in such a way where they don't have to present evidence to a jury. They want to publicly embarrass me, but they want to do it outside the presence of a jury at a trial that would more than likely be closely watched by the public. They want to show me how wrong I am and they want to rub my nose in it but they don't want to prove to a jury that I am wrong. Maybe I am the only person who doesn't understand how they are teaching me a lesson.
If they are so right and I am so wrong, then why be so afraid of trial? I can tell you why. They know that they are wrong and I can prove it to a jury. In an earlier post, someone said the polygraph examiners want me fit to stand trial, but then they do everything to avoid it. I am ready for trial. They apparently are not. That is easy to see when picking at the information that I have picked through in the past months. It is easy to hear in their words and it is obvious by their actions. They are so desperate that they even send a character assassin after me who showed himself to be a bigot and a man of very little courage or integrity. There is little doubt that this man is a member of TAPE and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that points to Eric Holden as the man holding the leash of this mangy dog.
Of course, all of them deny they have any role in what has transpired on this message board between me and this person. I have offered to drop the accusations and apologize for accusing them if they proved their innocence through polygraphs under the conditions which I posted earlier. Their answer was simply no. This is funny as hell to me because they refuse to exonerate themselves through the very product that Eric Holden uses to put people back to prison, but is not good enough to prove their case. They say that I am trying to destroy polygraph by posting here. I say that they are the ones destroying polygraph. I will make my point.
1. If I were to place a Coca-Cola product in front of the CEO of the Coca-Cola Corporation and he refused to drink it, then I would certainly never buy another Coca-Cola product again. People usually do not trust anyone who will not use the very product they sell. I have offered to take a polygraph over the issue of filling this lawsuit frivolously. I have even said that I would sit in one of their chairs to take that test. Wow, the "new guy" believes in the product more than the "old timers."
2. I am not as new as they say I am compared to one of my defendants, Clayton Wood. He became licensed about one year after I did. Of course, he is Richard Wood's son. One of the Holden boys has a long period of time between polygraph school graduation and full licensing. That would imply that his internship lasted more than a year; which would need Board approval. This implies that there were issues with his boards, but I will know more on that as FOIA requests make it through the pipe line. I was licensed before my year was up, so I guess I can't be all that bad of an examiner. I wonder how many of my defendants passed their Boards in one day. My guess is that little Wood and the little Holdens are riding on daddy's coattails, because I doubt either one of them could compete with me in a free and fair market.
3. TAPE has more than implied, through their silence and inaction, that they support members who make terroristic threats and condone sexually inappropriate emails regarding an officer of the court which is laced with racist comments. I guess that matches up with Eric Holden's DOCUMENTED past of sexual harassment. People like that can always be trusted to judge the good character of someone else.
4. The polygraph illuminati of Texas insist that they are not engaging in any wrongdoing. But, they want to avoid any chance of a jury looking at the facts and deciding if there is any wrongdoing. A jury verdict will put the issue to rest once and for all, but they want to avoid it.
Let's review
They say that I am wrong but do not want to prove it to a jury. How brave.
They say that they want to "teach me a lesson" but seem to want to do it in such a way that would be out of public view and want to do it through lies and legal wrangling to keep a jury from deciding. Looks like their case is not as strong as they think it is.
TAPE condones acts of terroristic threats, intimidation of a plaintiff through sexually inappropriate emails regarding the plaintiff's wife, who just happens to be an officer of the court, and racism. They do this through their silence and their lack of condemnation of such activities by their membership.
Little Wood and the Little Holdens stand a snowball's chance in hell of competing with me in an open and fair market. No matter which way you cut it, I am more experienced than one of them and appear to have had a shorter internship and a better start of my career than the other. I think that we have established here that there is a chance they are afraid when daddy leaves, they will be left to compete with me.
And finally
When they are being accused of wrong doing, they won't even drink their own Kool-Aid.
Wow
Lies, threats of violence, anonymous obscene emails regarding an officer of the court sent to her husband to intimidate or harass, racism, nepotism, entitlement, and, to top it all off, cowardly acts and cover ups.
Yes. I am the one destroying polygraph. The person who is exposing unethical practices and impropriety is destroying polygraph. YOU MUST BE KIDDING!
The cease fire is over. Negations have broken down. All bets are off and it is time to dig in and prepare for full scale war. Chances are it won't end in district court. I will take this to the Federal level if that is what it takes to get my jury trial. I know I am 100% right and when I do take this to the next level; I am bringing a friend named Rico. I do not hear a fat lady singing, but I do hear the war pipes striking in. Never underestimate an Irishman backed into a corner because that is where Irishman is used to fighting.
If these Bozos want to teach me a lesson, they shouldn't do it half assed. Take me to trial and prove that I am wrong. Put the issue to rest. This will not end until there is a trial of who is right and who is wrong. I am willing and ready to go to trial. Either they are not ready or willing to go to trial. In either case I wonder what they have to be so afraid of.
Don't tell me you want me fit for trial and then puss out then it comes time to put your chips in. Don't sing it, bring it.
As I used to say in one of my martial arts schools; "step up, or concede defeat, bow, and get the hell off my floor."
The lack of respect and one way communications will stop.
I have been kind over the past month or two. It's clear that everyone thinks my kindness is weakness. Well no more Mr. Nice guy.
I am in Tarrant County for good. They can like me or hate me, but they will learn to deal with me.
On 11 September 2008, AntiPolygraph.org received by fax an "Order Granting Plaintiff Joseph Lawrence McCarthy, Individually and Doing Business as Fenian Polygraph Services' Motion to Compel Disclosure of Electronic Information" in Tarrant County, Texas civil case No. 048-228282-08
(McCarthy v. Moore et al.), the dispositive portion of which states:
QuoteIT IS THEREFORE ORDERED that Plaintiff Joseph Lawrence McCarthy, individually and doing business as Fenian Polygraph Services' Motion to Compel Disclosure of Electronic Information from George W. Maschke and www.antipolygraph.org is hereby granted.
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that George W. Maschke and www.antipolygraph.org fully disclose any and all information in their possession, care, control, or custody relating to a registered user of www.antipolygraph.org who uses the avatar "lieguytoo". Said information is to include, but is not limited to, any and all internet protocol ("IP") addresses used by lieguytoo. Said information is to be sent to Plaintiff's counsel via email at ntxlaw@yahoo.com and via regular mail to P.O. Box 540218, Grand Prairie, Texas 75054 within three (3) calendar days of George Maschke and www.antipolygraph.org receiving a signed copy of this Order in any format, including, but not limited to, an email with the signed Order as a PDF attachment.
Unless AntiPolygraph.org receives timely notice of an appeal to this order, we intend to comply with it. The order, along with the plaintiff's motion seeking the order, and a cover sheet, are attached as a PDF file.
A whole lot of blah blah blah and lawyer mumbo jumbo happened yesterday. I hardly understand any of it. Frankly, I stopped trying to figure it out.
I can say that the Judge is very much looking forward to whom these IP addresses trace back. From the sound of it, he does not take this kind of thing lightly. I doubt this person will find much sympathy or mercy with this Judge when it is found out who he/she is.
Moreover, it is my intent to press charges on this individual, including any and all accomplices or conspirators, to the fullest extent of the law. Looking in the Texas Penal Code, I found the following offenses which may fit this issue:
§ 22.07. TERRORISTIC THREAT, which is a Class B misdemeanor.
§ 36.06. OBSTRUCTION OR RETALIATION, which is a 3rd degree FELONY.
I am sure the Judge and my wife can find a few more things to slap onto the basics. Either way, you just may want to kiss your polygraph examiner's license goodbye, because I don't think someone like this or people who help or harbor this activity should be in this profession.
Furthermore, be on notice that I will press any and all action civilly as allowed by law. Defamation of character, libel, and any other causes of action afforded to me by law will be filed in separate causes of action from the current ongoing case against this individual or individuals who are involved and have active knowledge of this person's activity. No one will be immune from prosecution, including, but not limited to:
Lieguytoo
The company, corporation, public agency, and/or firm that employees lieguytoo or is liable for his behavior (Most of his posts were during work hours so it is safe to assume that most of this happened while he was at work.)
TAPE or any other professional organization, entity, corporation, company, or firm which assisted or otherwise encouraged his unethical and/or illegal behavior.
No one, and I mean no one, will find safe harbor with me in this situation. Figuratively speaking, there will be a scorched earth policy regarding lieguytoo and his/her accomplices, co-conspirators, companies, firms, corporations, organizations, public safety agencies, and/or governmental agencies which has involvement with his/her actions in any way, shape, form, or fashion.
If you know who this person is, don't think he is going down alone. He'll point the finger at you just as soon as you point the finger at him. He may even try to say it was your idea. Does anyone really want to go down for this schmuck? I doubt it.
With that in mind, I will say this. Anyone who comes to me with information as to the identity of lieguytoo and any co-conspirators before I can trace the IP addresses will have immunity from civil action from me. I can trace the IP addresses in a matter of days. I have done it before. What my wife chooses to do with you is another thing, but I think I can get her to go along with my decision.
If lieguytoo steps forward and takes responsibility for his/her own actions, I will hear him out and negotiate a way to avoid the mess of any future litigation, including reconsidering litigation on anyone else or any other entity which could possibly be made liable.
What happens to you criminally will be up to the Judge and DA, but I assume that I might have a bit of influence as to the severity of charges if I choose to press them or not.
Anyone who comes forward will identify him or herself and be subject to polygraph to verify statements. Your name will not be made public on this or any other message board, with the exception of lieguytoo. I will not press any criminal or civil charges against you for coming forward with the truth.
Lieguytoo, if you come forward, I will not move forward on anything until I speak to your lawyer or representative to negotiate something that will avoid what will be a very public and costly litigation.
If someone does not step forward before I trace those IP addresses, all bets are off. I have made myself clear.
No one can say that they have not been warned. No one can say that I am being unreasonable here. My beef is with this guy, not with everyone. But, if people are protecting him, then my beef is with them too. Does anyone really want to put all that they have worked so hard for on the line to protect a person who was stupid enough to take things too far? Do you really want to risk your livelihoods just to "teach me a lesson" for pressing a legal action that I had every legal right to as an American Citizen?
Normally I hate a rat, but when the king rat decides that he wants to go down with the Titanic; I would let him go down alone and so should you.
What if it was your wife he said some of those things about? What is it was your sister or daughter he used to harass you by releasing personal non-public information about their jobs? I doubt any of you would take that.
If you want to come after me, come at me head on and with facts. I can respect that. But don't expect me to not swing back if your facts are outright wrong. Most of all don't ever come after my loved ones. My loved ones are off limits.
The jig is up lieguytoo. Right now, everyone who knows who you are is thinking about selling you out just to avoid being tangled in the mess you created. You are being offered the opportunity to make things right and avoid costly litigation, both criminally and civilly. Understand, the same opportunity is being offered to anyone who knows who you are and wants to avoid the same litigation.
The very person you are sitting next to or in the next room may very well be selling you out right now. One thing people have learned in this suit, legal expenses add up fast. I doubt you are worth 10 to 25K to protect; and that is just for the legal fees. If you are a member of TAPE and I go after TAPE, you'll have some explaining to do there too. That is, if they don't kick you out because of your actions.
It is all a matter of who gets to me first with the truth.
Ever read "The Tell Tale Heart" by Edgar Allen Poe? Well when you hear the sound of a heart beating, it's not a heart. It's a clock and as of the time I post this it is ticking away time that you have to make this easier on everyone.
I will find out who you are. One way or the other, I will find out who you are. The fewer hoops I have to jump through will result in this being less costly for everyone concerned. My phone is on 24/7; I suggest someone use it.
You all hate me anyway, so I have nothing to lose by painting everyone involved with the same brush. Knowledge = involvement. Anyone involved will be named in any action unless someone comes forward or lieguytoo comes forward. It has been made clear to me that I have no friends. If I have no friends then I will be making no new enemies.
I will be posting this on Polygraph Place as well to make sure all are on notice including Polygraph Place and its owners and administrators. If they have knowledge or direct involvement, I will go after them too.
You're running out of places to hide lieguytoo, and soon I think you will find yourself with fewer friends than I have. Don't worry I am sure you'll make plenty of new ones in jail or at the Wendy's where you'll be working when your license is taken away. Then again you can always do the right thing and step forward. That may save the licenses of those around you because I intend to press the same charges against those who had knowledge or involvement. Unless, of course, one of them rats you out.
I wonder who will eat the cheese first, or will they all eat crow?
Better yet, if I find out who you are for sure before you turn yourself in, maybe I will let the people on this board help me choose what I do to you. Do I forgive and forget or do I take you to court and shred you? I'd let the polygraph community have their say, but with a few acceptations, no one has cared enough to even talk to me. So, why should I care what they think?
I think I am being very fair by giving you an opportunity to come forward so we can handle this in private and avoid litigation. Don't take my kindness as weakness. When I am backed into a corner I am neither kind nor weak.
The clock is ticking boys and girls and this is no bluff. The order to compel is real, submitted and will be complied with. Game on!
If you think this will just go away, ask your self one question; has it gone away yet? Think about it.
Tick Tock, Tick Tock
OK. Lets try a wee social experimant.
I had some people contact me with some brilliant ideas. I actually think this is a fair way to handle this when I find out who this person is. The plan technically consists of two parts, and hinges on if no one sells out lieguytoo or if he does not step forward voluntarily.
Part #1 which is actually Part # 2.
When the IP address is tracked back to the pinheaded individual who calls himself lieguytoo, the Judge gets him first. After the Judge is done with him, if there is anything left, I can then decide if I want to press charges and/or file a civil action.
I feel this should be done fairly and equitably. It is my goal to give this tool the chance I was not given by my own trade association. Antipolygraph.org will have the opportunity to hold its very first cyber trial. There will be 12 jurors, who will consist of 6 antipolygraph.org members and 6 polygraph examiners. All other jurors will be chosen by me using criteria that I will work out in the next few days.
Evidence and argument will be by submission. I will represent myself and a polygraph examiner of lieguytoo's choice will represent him or lieguytoo can represent himself. We will find a way to do a secret ballot when it is time for deliberations.
The rest of the details will be worked out in the next few days.
Now for part #2 which is actually part #1.
In every mock trial, there must be a mock judge. This is where things get interesting. I feel like a reality show host; where is Dr. Phil when you need him? Hey Dr. Phil this would make a great show!!!!! But, Springer would be cool too. 8-)
The polygraph examiners are to surrender their IP addresses to compare with the IP addresses that George will give me. It will be noted here that the IP addresses that will be surrendered to me by the polygraph examiners will not be published in any way, shape, or form. I will not give them out so please do not ask.
If necessary, I will give out the IP addresses surrendered by antipolygraph.org. The first person who can positively document the examiner that the IP addresses traces back to will be appointed the mock judge and have the tie-breaking vote in the event there is a hung jury.
The rules of evidence of this mock trial will be taken from the Texas Rules of Evidence. The rules will be watered down and simplified so we non lawyer folk can understand it.
The trial will address the following issues.
Did the person identified as lieguytoo libel me?
Did the person identified as lieguytoo defame me?
Did the person identified as lieguytoo defame my wife?
Did the person identified as lieguytoo threaten me for the purposes of intimidation or harassment before trial was to begin in Tarrant County, Texas?
If yes, then did he commit the offense in a manner which the reasonable person would believe that there was an underlying racial intent or motivation?
Did the person identified as lieguytoo make terroristic threats against me?
Other charges, if any, will be announced. Any accomplices or persons of responsibility will be put on mock trial as well, including but not limited to, TAPE; APA; any business entity or governmental agency which employs lieguytoo; and lieguytoo's direct supervisor and/or business entity owner where this person works and/or posted messages and private messages.
If these people do not want to participate they will be tried in absentia.
The parties are either liable or not liable.
I am not saying that we will be doing this for sure; it's just something I am throwing out there.
The bottom line is that I can't count on the polygraph community to be fair and unbiased. The people on this message board have treated me, a polygraph examiner, with more kindness and dignity than those of my own profession. In return, I feel you should have some say in what happens to this clown. However, I do want to be fair to the people who were never fair to me. After all, this is America and that is how things are supposed to be done.
We will let a jury, of sorts, help decide what I do to the accused. However, let me say this. I am not bound to follow the verdict of the cyber jury. It is merely a 'guideline' to the next step.
If you have any CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions or thoughts, please let me know. If you are a polygraph examiner and plan on calling me evil, a traitor, etc., please don't waste my time. Before you blame me, please make sure your own hands are clean. If you do plan on defending this bozo, please tell us all how is actions are justified. It'll be fun to see the cognitive thought distortions of a polygraph examiner.
I was forced to walk the gauntlet at the TAPE convention and lieguytoo seemed to take great pleasure in that. Well, pay back is a bitch. I will put you in a mock trial situation and let these people have some influence on how I handle you.
Wow, I get ambushed and denied the opportunity to defend myself and still I am fair enough to give this worm the opportunity to defend himself. Yet again, I show that I am a true fair and unbiased verifier of the truth. Should be interesting to see how long it will take the other examiners to twist this in a way that I am the jerk for being fair.
I wanted to handle this in the polygraph community. No one listened or cared, so now, yet again I am left to the very people who are supposed to hate me. Now that is irony! Don't come pissing and moaning to me I gave the polygraph comunity to handle this one. Everyone was so busy throwing stones at me you forgot to look at yourselves.
As usual my phone is always on. If you don't like what I am doing, don't hide like the twit lieguytoo. I will not care what you have to say if I don't know who you are and can identify yourself. As far as I am concerned you will be just another chicken S&^% who can't be man and face me.
So what does everyone think?
God bless and good night
Me
Can I be the court jester?
TC
ladies and gentlemen the first juror to help decide the fate of lieguytoo. Congrads TM
i dont think any one's IP address should be given out EVER. Many people say many things. There is not a justifiable reason to deliver any person's IP to anyone!
this will jepordize the sanctity of this site!
DONT DO IT!!!
Having received no timely notice of any challenge to Judge David L. Evans' 10 September 2008 "Order Granting Plaintiff Joseph Lawrence McCarthy, Individually and Doing Business as Fenian Polygraph Services' Motion to Compel Disclosure of Electronic Information," AntiPolygraph.org has complied with it.
Quote from: the_fighting_irish on Sep 13, 2008, 10:03 PMi dont think any one's IP address should be given out EVER. Many people say many things. There is not a justifiable reason to deliver any person's IP to anyone!
this will jepordize the sanctity of this site!
DONT DO IT!!!
Ok I will be fair.
There are three IP addresses
One traces back to Cedar Hill, TX; the other Spring, TX; and the other Houston.
There are a group of people involved with this, of that there is no doubt. I am fixin to make some examiners weekends much worse because Hurricane Fenian is building pressure and is about to surge.
People have until midnight tonight to turn them selves in to Don Ramsey and for Don to call me with Identities. If this happens I will not release any information and I will try to handle this behind closed doors in good faith.
Releasing IP addresses is not a choice in the hands of the examiners involved and TAPE. I do hope they do not call my bluff. It is now their choice, I wash my hands of all responsibility. Do the right thing and face the music like "people of good character" as Don would say. Or suffer the consequences.
I don't think they understand; I am in the drivers seat now.
At 12:01 tonight I reserve the right to release any and all information I have to allow anyone a chance to be a hero. Now that I know it is a group of people, I have no problem serving them to the wolves.
Multiple IP addresses and multiple cites in Texas. So much for me being paranoid about it being a conspiracy; I think it is now confirmed. I wonder how much more I am right about.
Oh yea, here is something really funny;
On July 10 Lieguytoo wrote:
i use an anon. comm. ystem. my ip will be different almost everytime showing you diff. locations, IF you were even able to track it
That came from the IP address in Houston.
Over ten messages and 3 IP's. Looks like lieguytoo was living up to his name. Nice try.
Looks like diverting and misinformation is the MO.
Oh and the threat came from the Spring TX IP. So whoever that is, they should expect to take a trip to Tarrant County and meet a nice man named Judge Evans. My God have mercy on you because I doubt you will find any from Judge Evens.
Midnight tonight to do the right thing. In the mean time I will be continuing my search. If I find you before you turn yourselves in, GAME OVER. I will release any and all information I see fit.
Have a nice day.
P.S.
If this person is a Member of TAPE, this antitrust lawsuit may be the least of their worries.
The rope is tightening and my hand is on the handle to the trap door. Looks like there will be a "Texas Hanging" after all.
correction, there are six IP's
looks like people are sweating, look what I found posted on Whatis myipadderess.com
September 14 2008 10:22 am (Read 105 times)
Newbie
Status: online
Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 1
Hi -- I need some insight. I flamed a guy on a page that lists his job and how well he does. I put that he was a bully and had been really mean as a child. I tried to delete it, but they had already published it. I put a notice on it asking the site to delete it, but they are overseas. I also put a note under it saying that I retract my comments. Now I am really scared they may be able to track me and sue me for defamation, even though my comments were true. I deleted cookies from the site immediately. Can someone tell me what else I can do?
The walls are closing in. It is funny he turned to help from the very sight that I used to narrow the search.
Are ya sweating lieguytoo? Are you looking out your window, over your shoulder. Don't worry, I don't do things that way, anymore.
I will let the law handle you and you'll be taking my order at the local Wendy's in a matter of no time. Unless of course you decide to do the right thing. You clearly feel guilty.
Please do the right thing. Honestly it will go better on all of us. We all want to aviod further legal action. This is your only way to aviod it.
Funny there is an examiner who has a few offices in both Spring and Houston. Sounds like a suspect, but there are a few. Guess I'll know more after I release the addresses. I know there is another fat ass in the Houston area as well, he knows who i am talking about.
Four Hours
If anyone can help me out with this bit of information. The Email addresses reg to lieguytoo ia lieguytoo@yahoo.com
The Guys on PP just can't wait to get this ball rolling. It is also clear that Lieguytoo will not willingly come forward. It is time to stop thinking that polygraph examiners will do the right thing on their own. If they want to act like children, then I will treat them like children.
It is clear that there is more than one subject. Have fun guys. When you identify the IP addresses, you can do what you want with them and release them in any manner you like.
The defendants were supposed to give us their IP addresses this past Friday. The wait continues. Here are the IP addresses I need info on:
76.30.7.92
70.197.185.102
75.210.182.164
70.216.210.173
70.197.191.32
Lieguytoo's IP addresses trace back to the DFW area and the Spring/Houston area. You can always email and ask him who he plans on hiring as a lawyer or where he plans to hide. His email address is lieguytoo@yahoo.com.
I have an idea who one of the people is in Houston/Spring area. I hope IKE doesn't get to him before my lawyer does.
I also have an idea who the DFW person is. I just have to adopt a plan using the best options available to me.
Looking forward to reading what the other examiners have to say.
I'll see you guys in Houston real soon.
UPDATE:
The defendants' lawyer, as of today, has failed to surrender the defendants' IP addresses for comparison. The surrendered IP addresses of the defendants would not be released under any condition and I announced that publicly. By the way, I have lived up to every agreement I made during this action. There is still avoidance.
I personally find this interesting to say the least. This kind of avoidance has become motis operandi since this whole thing started. Delay releasing information until the point is moot. Finally my lawyer sees the pattern too.
Therefore, subpoenas will be issued to Yahoo, Verizon, and Comcast to give us the identities of the IP addresses.
1. I can not trust the information they give to there lawyer will be true and accurate information. If any of them are offended by what I said they need to ask themselves why. If I am wrong than there is nothing to be offended over.
2. An agreement was made to have the information and a singed agreement done by mast Friday. They have welshed on that agreement (big shock), therefore can no longer be trusted.
3. They obvious think this is just going to "go away", it won't.
4. They don't take me seriously when I say I am going to do something or they are arrogant enough to think they are untouchable. They are mistaken.
It is my understanding that the lack of cooperation on behalf of the defendants will be brought to the Judges attention also. We will more than likely have some of the information back before then so I will just have to expose the offending party or parties in open court. And then duck when the preverbal crap hits the fan.
Or option B, the offending party/parties come forward on their own while there is still time. If this happens we can sit down and try to handle it all as quietly as possible, and I might not press criminal charges and I take no responsibility for what the judge himself may do. Civilly is another matter, but I can be reasoned with there as well. Even formal civil action can possibly be avoided.
I think option B is easier and less stressful for everyone, don't you lieguytoo?
Subpoenas go out tonight.
Oh yea, one more thing. It is confirmed that lieguytoo was not using an anonymous or secured server. We have been told by professional law enforcement officers who specialize in computer crimes, that the IP's can be traced with subpoenas.
This is not going away; lets all do this the easy way over the hard way. The time on the offer is running down
the fighting irish
I have been following this from the very beginning and I have nothing to gain whether you win or lose. I'm just trying to hone my legal knowledge. I have nothing to do with or have any interest in SO polygraphs. I believe the polygraph's ONLY utility is to gain confessions. Therefore, I have some questions and statements.
1. It appears, by your postings, that you really don't want to go to
court and are offering deals to the defendants.
2. Why are you posting your plans of action? Forewarned is
forearmed.
3. I believe you possess a knock out punch. So why are you dancing
and jabing on the internet? Deliver the knock out punch in court.
4. If I was the defendants lawyer, I would be making copies of your
postings here and make them Exibit A stating that you were trying
to pressure my clients into a plea. I believe you are making a
mistake in this area.
5. If anyone made a threat on my or my family's life, I would
prosecute to the fullest or take care of business myself. The latter
would be more likely in my case.
6. Does your lawyer approve of your postings on this site?
I have a lot more questions but, I wouldn't want you to divulge any more information than you already have. I am pulling for you to open a closed network. And no, I am not willing to be an internet juror.
Please let us know the court date. I would drive 500 miles to take in the proceedings. I could learn a little about state court jurisprudence. I already know the federal court system.
Twoblock,
I just wanted you to know that I was not ignoring you. These are good questions that I will answer. I have been putting out some fires and preparing for the discovery of the identity of lieguytoo. The subpoenas are finally ready to be served and the actins are prepared and ready to go.
The answer to one of your questions is very simple.
Forewarned is forearmed; this is true. I like to give people the opportunity to avoid anytime I can. This way when I act, no one can say they were shocked or surprised. Moreover in most cases all they can do it sit there and watch me coming because that don't have a defense. This will be the case with lieguytoo.
Apparently there is someone out there who is not taking me seriously. They don't think I will find out who he is, or they think this will just go away. I have seen a lot of activity on their side lately; this tells me that they are nervous about the lieguytoo situations. Rightfully so if the information I gathered is correct.
I'll go into greater detail later and answer the rest of your questions. Please bare with me until after a few things play out.
Verizion has informed me that they will comply with a subpoena regarding the sources of the IP addresses which Antipolygraph.org released to me a couple of months ago.
I was informed last week they will release the information after December 10th so long as the person who is tied to the IP addresses does not file a motion in court to stop them from releasing the information. It is my understanding that no such motion was filed so I am expecting the information any day now.
Lieguytoo has, thus far, not even attempted to resolve the issues of theoristic threats, libel, witness intimidation, racism and disparaging commentary directed toward my new wife.
He stated on another message board which talks about hiding ones IP addresses that everything he said was true. He also inferred that he did noting wrong, unethical or illegal according to the tine of his postings. I hope he can prove this because his window of opportunity to settle this matter behind closed doors is now passed.
Because the IP addresses originate in Houston and the Dallas area, I feel it is safe to assume that there is not just one person involved with the lieguytoo screen name. I am also sure they have been informed by verizion that the information will be released to me and this information will be in my hands more than likely by the end of this week. I know for a fact they have been monitoring this message board to look for any new postings.
This person or people have been given every opportunity to do the right thing, apologize, and take responsibility of their actions. Time and time again the arrogant belief that I will not find out who lieguytoo has been their house of straw, stick and bricks which they have used to hide. Hurricane season is ending late this year for this person or people as Hurricane Joey is slowly approaching and there will be no way to escape that storm surge like the people in Houston managed to do.
I will make the identity of lieguytoo, the examiners who are associates with lieguytoo and the company which lieguytoo owns or is employed after I speak with legal counsel who specializes in libel and defamation issues. I also intent to press full criminal action allowable under the law on the person or persons involved as well as make the Presiding Judge involved with my case aware of the identities and will ask for what ever action which can be taken to be looked at and addressed.
So much for anonymous servers. Game over
'Once I though I was out, they pull me back in!"
I had hoped that when all this was supposed to have ended last year, I would never have to address what has become the worst year of my life ever again. Apparently most of the defendants in the suit seem to think that they can walk all over me and I won't do anything about it. They will so find that I am no pushover.
On July 9, 2008, I posted that the suit with the majority of the sex offender providers is over. In October of 2008, the rest of the parties settled. The settlements that were made were made for everyone best interests so we could all put our swords away and stop what would have undoubtedly had turned into an endless and costly war. I am here to tell you that over seven months later, all of the sex offender providers with the exception of Mr. Guthrie and Mr. Medina and about half of the polygraph examiners have either ignored or outright engaged in behaviors counter to the intent and sprit of the settlement agreements.
I am sure no one on this message board is shocked by this.
I make this public update after there have been countless efforts to settle the matters privately. All efforts have been met by the involved defendants with un-repentance and a sense of entitlement that they are not accountable for their actions or obligations in which they agreed to. I am willing to bet that if I had been engaging in activities which are contrary to my obligations which have been clearly laid out in the settlement agreement, I would be held responsible and accountable. Since the agreement was proposed and agreed to in July, I have received no more than 10 polygraph examinations from all of the providers in question. In fact, I have been informed that on at least one occasion, a person who used my services when he chose to do so was dismissed from his group therapy by Ezio Leite. I have also been told that probationers have been told that they are not to use my services because "he sued my ass".
In December of 2008, a Fenian Polygraph Services representative was sent to PSY where she was told that there would be some patents of theirs whom would be calling to make arrangements to receive services. I gave the above named individuals the benefit of the doubt and awaited the phone calls we were told were imminent. The phone calls did not come and we readdressed the issue of bringing the defendants into compliance with the settlement agreement. It is my understanding that this back and fourth lasted for a few weeks and ended when the defendants simply stopped taking our calls in January of 2009.
They offer settlement and I live up to every thing I agreed to and they live up to nothing except walking away. Looking back, I would have rather rolled my dice with a jury. But they offered a deal which they knew they would not live up to. I was swindled and coned. Even with an agreement they took Christmas presents from under my Son's tree and continue to take food off my table like a bunch of cowards and sneak thieves.
These are the people whom Tarrant County, Texas depends on to help keep sex offenders in compliance with their probation and/or parole conditions.
Eric Holden and Behavioral Measures entered into an agreement in October of 2008 which essentially ended all actions in the suit. In that settlement, it was agreed that I would not release anyone from liability upon the discovery of the identity of Lieguytoo should the identified person or companies or persons connected with the identified person be a defendant.
Eric Holden and Behavioral Measures now refuse to complete the final documents because they want to change the terms after it was discovered that one of the sources of the Lieguytoo posts came from the business address of Behavioral Measures. I know. Everyone is just shocked.
I pointed my finger straight at Behavioral Measures and I was right. Of course, given Mr. Holden's past, I do not think it would have taken a rocket scientist to figure out that he had a hand in it.
Mr. Holden and his new lawyer, Evan Shaw, will attempt to convince a Judge that they should have a "do over" in negotiating the settlement agreement. Apparently, they feel the agreement they approved of is now unfair because they are now connected to the libelous public postings and possibly illegal private messages which was made by one of his most trusted employees. I guess it is Behavioral Measures policy that it is all fun and games until you get caught. Then break out the smoke and mirrors to redirect attention away from Mr. Holden.
It seems Holden wants me to hold him free of responsibility or we start from the drawing board. That is fine with me, If Holden et al wants a trial after all, I am all for it. If there is going to be a "do over" it will be for everyone and not just for him. I have a lot more evidence now than I did last year. I know that Wood & Associates is still getting the vast majority of Tarrant County probationers and now I can prove it through the actions of Strain, Leite, Braun, Dean, and Shahan. I can also prove that there is deeper involvement with the CSCD's. All the polygraph examiners wanted to pull the "united we stand" bit from the very beginning. Now, they will have to accept the "divided we fall" alternative because Holden wants to be Al Gore.
This is what happens when you want to, how did Noah Webster put it; "teach Joe a lesson." They made the deal together; now let them sit together deal with the aftermath together. It will be hard to teach me a lesson when some people's egos and greed have made it clear that the restriction of trade and monopolistic practices do exist. It is a pretty hard accusation to deny when your actions speak louder then your lies huh?
I am also under the impression that Holden will not finish the settlement unless the issue of lieguytoo is settled with it. They want to keep it in Tarrant County. GREAT IDEA! There is another high profile internet blogging defamation suit in Tarrant County that is currently ongoing. This simply means that the two defamation cases would exist symbiotically. What happens to one case directly affects the other. The other case involves a high profile trial lawyer who has been defamed by a group of "anonymous" bloggers. Tarrant County is a great place for a case like this.
Holden and Shaw are tougher than even they thought. They are testing themselves and do not even know it. Great idea, I can not wait to hear Judge Evens' reactions when he hears that Shaw wants to keep this in his court. Wow, this Shaw guy has some balls to be brave enough to look into Evens' eyes and say that the case should stay in that court. But I guess it is better for Shaw to take a chance with Evens rather than face a Dallas Judge with his reputation.
What is funny to me is his choice of new attorney. Apparently Mr. Shaw has had some problems with allegations of trying to intimidate people to get his way himself. It has been alleged that Mr. Shaw has stalked a Dallas County Judge after the Judge refused to recuse himself after Mr. Shaw filed a motion asking the Judge to do so. You can read about Mr. Shaw's alleged woes involving influencing or intimidating persons involved with a court action in which he is not getting his way.
http://www.law.com/jsp/law/LawArticleFriendly.jsp?id=1202427720986
I guess birds of a feather do flock together or Mr. Holden is unaware of Mr. Shaw's past. Either way, in regards to credibility, Mr. Holden may need to rethink his position.
I will be filing suit against Behavioral Measures and Mr. Holden for the issues involving lieguytoo. I have been given no other option.
I get the feeling that some of the parties involved in the upcoming hearing are simply waiting until they have succeeded in forcing Texas' only independent unbiased verifier or the truth out of business leaving only the "lie detectors;" most of whom seem to be far from independent or unbiased. I guess there is always Federal Court to settle this anti trust suit and this time I will force everyone to trial. There will be a winner and a loser and a jury will decide.
Once again, some of Lieguytoo's posts have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have come from the business address of Behavioral Measures, according to records provided to me by Verizon. I am still awaiting identifications from Comcast which will be provided after the defamation suit is underway.
Given this information coupled with Mr. Holden's past documented questionable behaviors, I feel Mr. Holden's presence on any APA committee or on any decision making board becomes troublesome. I feel that Mr. Holden should step down from any office or committee membership which he holds until these questionable character issues are resolved.
I said it and I'll say it again. Until his character issues are cleared up, Mr. Holden or anyone Mr. Holden had direct influence over is a potential liability and thus should be asked to step down from any office or committee which have direct or indirect influence of polygraph policy or rule making.
I said it here and I'll say it to his face. There are people are afraid of Eric Holden. I am not one of them. In my opinion, he is all fluff and no substance.
When I think about it, most of these people are real idiots. If they had passed me about 5 to 10 tests now and again, I would have a very hard time proving anything. But ego got the best of everyone; even after I outperformed both Wood & Associates and Behavioral Measures; again and again. Even throughout the suit I would have tossed tests my way. That way if it did go to a jury, the jury would have said; "what is this guy complaining about, they are sending him tests."
Over and over again they have had a chance to prove me wrong, especially within the past month when I extended the deal of $100.00 maintenance and monitoring tests until Saint Patties. Not one single person from their groups called for a test. Now, is someone going to tell me that people, who already have a hard time making ends meet, can not wait to spend $200.00 to $250.00 for a test that they can get for $100.00? How believable does everyone think that will seem to a Judge? That by it self shows that they are intentionally ordering their people not to use my services, Ezio et al keeps making my case for me. I am glad they do not make a living by being chess players they would be broke
As long as they all stand together or stand silent and profit from another person's lack of integrity, I will paint them all with the same brush. You would think they would learn that I have no fear of any of them by now.
The question is not how far am I going to take this; the question is, do I have the intestinal fortitude to take this as far as is needed to assure I walk away with my head held high?
I have been silent when I thought there was a peace. Now that I know this peace was built on lies it is time to get the war machine moving again. Now they will be forced to consider the alternative. I am still here and in business and I am not going away anytime soon; even if it means me dieing broke and destitute.
I will not be conned again by a bunch of lowly sneak thieves, a gaggle of fidlen bens.
Hey Ezio, Lawren, Michael, Heather and Sean; how do you justify your mantra of "no new victims" knowing that there is a distinct possibility that your very own golden boys may be allowing offenders to fall through the cracks? If the offenders fall through the cracks, do the victims fall with them? How do you people sleep at night? How does Tarrant County sleep at night knowing that these people stand between their children and convicted sex offenders; not all of whom are following their treatment programs or the law?
I am glad these therapists sleep well at night. I guess they or someone they love must not live near any registered offenders. I hope their money buys them peace of mind and their egos keep them warm.
Our justice system never fails to amaze me. Apparently, agreements are not agreements in America. I have been told that you learn a new thing every day. Today is no exception. Settlements are only good so long has it benefits the party whom wants to change the deal midstream. My new nickname for Eric Holden is Gore. When something does not go his way, he wants a "do over." Well, he got it.
The case will go to trial after all. Because of the filing error my lawyer made, there was a summary judgment placed against me and now the trial is over if I filed the suit in bad faith. It is a trial I feel the polygraph examiners will lose, but apparently Holden wants to spend the money.
This is a warning to everyone out there. If you make a deal with Holden or Behavioral Measures, get it in writing right away. If you don't, then he may try to change the deal when your agreement no longer benefits him.
If he wants to go to the mattresses, he's got it. Sadly I am forced into the decision that all the polygraph examiners made the deal together. Now they will have to finish this together. After all they wanted to stand together to "teach me a lesson". Now they will have to live up to what their lawyer told me back in the summer of 2008.
What I am curious about is that if Holden et al was so right and I was so wrong, then why did he send a character assassin after me? They thought that I would not find out that it was them. When they did realize that I had proof, they try to stress me out more by changing the rules. They want to wear me down in the hopes that I will tuck tail and run like others in the past. While this would have worked last year, now it just pisses me off and makes me stronger in my resolve that some of these people are persons of bad character and need to be exposed for what they are.
Speaking of bad character, the Judge brought something to everyone's attention yesterday. Apparently, some "anonymous" correspondence was received by him in January of 2009. This correspondence addressed issues that are actually non-issues, about my wife. The Judge described the correspondence as "cowardly" and all attorneys were strongly admonished because this is considered ex parte communications with the Judge. It is my understanding that any ex parte communications with the Judge is highly inappropriate and frowned upon across the board.
Now here is the interesting twist. The person who mailed this cowardly inappropriate correspondence was not the smarted bulb in the bunch. He used a Pitney Bowes postage meter. All Pitney Bowes postage meters have a unique account number assigned to them. All you have to do is call the consumer affairs division of the post office, give them the number, and they will tell you who it belongs to. Guess who it belongs to? If you guessed that the meter belongs to Behavioral Measures, then you would be correct. This guy is dumber than the criminals he polygraphs.
Eric would not make a good criminal. Don't worry Eric. Practice makes perfect. Now we have Behavioral Measures and Eric Holden connected with numerous "anonymous" and 'inappropriate" communications with not only a Plaintiff, but also with the Judge. There seems to be a pattern developing here.
While this is a good thing for me because I can now establish that this is Mr. Holden's typical MO in handing things, this is not going to be a good thing for Mr. Holden because the Judge is going to want to have some words with him.
What he is doing is nothing more than constructive intimidation. He is hoping to scare her away so that I will be left alone and defenseless in Court or he is hoping that I will simply kick the bat snot out of him (which would not be a challenge) and he will press charges thus taking me out of the picture anyway. Much to his dismay, neither of those two things will happen. On the other hand, this could be just another one of Mr. Shaw's little stunts to set a case up for appeal or refusal that backfired on him.
Their little stunt did not have the desired effect they had hoped. Her licensing issues have been resolved and we will now pick up the issue of behavioral Measures cowardly ways and stupidity.
First, he has stirred a hornet's nest and provided us with proof that this "anonymous" form of intimidation is a pattern for him. Second, I don't think Eric or anyone who works for him is worth wasting my skills on and none of them would last 30 seconds going toe to toe with a trained fighter like me.
What I am going to do is take this to the Judge and demand satisfaction. Holden and everyone else on that side seemed to get away with murder in that courtroom. Seriously, every time I think these people have fallen into a sewer, they come out holding two gold watches. I will be interested to see what Holden et al will be holding when they walk out of the court room this week.
The lieguytoo issues are still out there and totally unresolved. Holden et al are probably under the impression that it will be forgotten and that they got away with it. With the trial going forward and the lieguytoo issue left unresolved, I actual fear for my safety and the safety of those around me. Given who I discovered is behind the anonymous letter to the Judge, there is no doubts in my mind that Holden is mentally capable of doing something to me or someone close to me in the "hostile LZ" which was referenced in the anonymous email which was sent to me the day before trial was supposed to have taken place last year. I guess that not only do I not have a right to speak my piece in Court, but I don't have a right to safety either.
Therefore, I guess, if Eric is making the rules, then I guess I will have to learn what those rules are and start playing by them also.
So here we go with another interesting piece of info that I have been sitting on for some time.
Eric has recently added a new name to his list of polygraph examiners who perform his contract parole tests for Texas. Apparently, former Uvalde County sheriff who did not run for re-election under a veil of corruption accusations is now running polygraph tests under the umbrella of Behavioral Measures.
Because I have a reputation of providing documentation to as many things as I am allowed to due to my case being ongoing, here is the news article addressing the alleged ethics issues which have surrounded Mr. Crawford:
http://www.uvaldeleadernews.com/articles/2008/11/27/news/news2.txt
If you read the article, I believe that you will see that water seeks its own level. It sounds almost exactly like my case. A list is to be handed out so people can make a choice, but yet magically, the vast majority of people pick the person for company who seems to have close ties to the current administration. The administration, with their back against the wall denies any wrong doing, but takes no preventative measures to eliminate the appearance of impropriety. The only thing that is missing on my end is the lack of hard proof that kickbacks and special favors are being offered and accepted, but there is always tomorrow. Now that the fight is still on, I may need to start looking into things again.
Anyway, Eric has been tied into continued "anonymous" and inappropriate communications in an effort to unethically influence the outcome of a court action in which he stand to have a lot to lose. His vetting process on hiring employees has been questionable. He feels brave enough that he feels no one will ever question him because he is "The Great Eric Holden."
In my opinion, Mr. Holden's actions and judgment is under great question. I feel that all his actions and words should be scrutinized and held to great suspicion. I call upon Eric Holden to step down from any APA or trade association committee which he holds any chair or office voluntarily until the issues are cleared up. If he does not, I challenge any trade organization or committee to demand the immediate resignation of Eric Holden until the issues of his character and judgment are cleared up.
Holden holds great influence in TAPE and in the APA. His questionable judgment might make him a potential liability to either organization, especially TAPE. One of Mr. Holden's employees confessed that he was Lieguytoo. He worked for Eric at the time and was an officer of TAPE while he was posting the defamatory remarks and sending his threats. TAPE does owe me an apology for one of their officer actions, but I will not hold my breath for one. This person is also an APA instructor. Just a wee something for the APA and TAPE to consider.
But here is a question. Are the other examiners involved in the suit in collusion with Holden? They would certainly benefit if I were to tuck tail and run and they would benefit if I lose too. They see a wee too silent on this matter. After all, they were "united" in how they dealt with me in the past. Who is to say they still aren't united in forcing me out of business?
If I were Eric I would clear my schedule for the date that will be listed on the subpoena he will be served with. He may even want to pencil out a few days. It is my understanding that the Judge could give him up to six months.
I will not give in on the defamation case which will be brought against Holden, Behavioral Measures and possibly other parties whom lieguytoo is directly involved with within the underlining case or the owners of the IP addresses once the identity of those other IP addresses are revealed.
The sex offender providers have got yet another temporary reprieve from their hearing due to a "scheduling conflict" and it is my understanding that will be heard next week although I won't hold my breath because this is the 3rd or 4th time. They are doing everything to avoid living up to their end of their SIGNED agreement, even all the way up to today. It seems they are looking for a reason to get a "do over" too.
I hope Holden and those who support him continues their stupidity. In my opinion, every day he makes himself more and more of a liability. Witness intimidation, cowardly acts, ex parte communication with a Judge, and "anonymous" threats are par for course with Eric Holden. All fluff and no substance with nothing more than posturing. When someone calls him to the plate, he whines and calls foul. It's all about smoke and mirrors.
I have been told that when you hear him speak publicly, he sounds like an evangelist preacher. I only know Eric privately and have never seen him speak in a public setting. I can say that if this is true, it would not shock me. I think we can all agree that the vast majority of TV evangelist preachers have proven through past actions that they are no more than snake oil salesmen who don't care about your soul but do care about how much money you have to spend in which to save said soul.
I feel that Eric Holden is the same type of person. While I am sure that some of the things he has to say are eloquent and maybe even philosophical, I bet that is as far as it goes. He is all talk and no action and all fluff and no substance. If it was not for his ability to manipulate the masses or the people backstage making the smoke and moving the mirrors, he would not be "Eric Holden," he would be "that guy". His ego cannot handle being "that guy."
He is going to speak at a TAPE conference sometime soon. I am willing to bet there will be little barbs and jabs at me. He will rant on about how good he is and why he is such a genius and then list a bunch of accomplishments from the past which remain just that, in the past. Any new ideas he will conger up in his little magic caldron of lies and BS will not benefit anyone other then himself or those he chooses to benefit. He will have no new innovations for the future or visions of a greater tomorrow in polygraph other than "Joe McCarthy needs to be taught a lesson and run out on a midnight train." All he can do is fluff up and re-hash the same blah blah blah of the last ten years like he is some small town high school football hero who never made it to the pros and has nothing but the past to live off of. Of course, he will only be brave in a room full of people who will protect him and hate me simply because the few people of power who cannot take responsibility for their actions can manipulate the mob. I was shocked last year to see how easy it was for a few of the defendants to manipulate the masses.
A group of polygraph examiners will, for the most part, believe what they are told to believe. I know I will not be popular for saying that, but my experiences from the past year have shown this to be true. There are a few examiners out there who are independent thinkers whom understand what I am trying to do but are not keen on my methods. I can respect that because I do have the ability to think outside of myself. But eventually the old will give way to the new and as that happens, Eric Holden's people will uncover the harsh and hidden fact that, in my opinion, is the reason why he is where he is now. It is not because he is a man of true substance, but because he has manipulated people into thinking that he is a man of substance.
If you were trying for a psychotic rant I think you acheived your goal.
I know you're smarter than that. Take some time and review your thoughts, allow your anger to subside and try again. I know you can present a more logical argument when you're temper isn't getting the better of you.
I have found that logic does not apply in this case or in this court. This was over, done and then because something did go Holden's way the rules change. Yes I am pissed; I am also disappointed that Holden can break his agreements, threaten and intimidate me, break court rules and when he gets away with it people question why I am angry.
There is more I want to say but will hold off a day or two. As far as the word "psychotic" goes, I feel that is a label that may be a better fit for Mr. Holden.
He seems to be working very hard to hide something.
Grace's post is an allegation of criminal behavior levied at a specific individual and possibly slander. If the author wishes to remain anonymous, the post should be removed.
QuoteGrace's post is an allegation of criminal behavior levied at a specific individual and possibly slander.
Not true Sancho. You're being silly.
TC
Cullen once again you are un-informed, or mis-informed but, in either case you have formed ANOTHER Opinion without the necessary facts.
I am not surprised.
I don't really care what you think because my comment and request was addressed directly to George as administrator of this forum.
Are you George?
Did he ask you to respond on his behalf?
Do you feel him incapable or unqualified to act upon my request?
Have you forgotten that this is his board?
Why do you constantly feel the need to answer for him?
I find your behavior here somewhat reminiscent of the kid in every kindergarten class that always raises his hand and never knows the answer.
QuoteI don't really care what you think because my comment and request was addressed directly to George as administrator of this forum.
Capt Queeg, Sancho Panza, Anonymous Too, Ed Earl (did I miss any?),
Really? Sorry, but your post wasn't addressed to him, or to anyone for that matter. Regardless, it's an OPEN forum. Maybe you should've sent GM a PM if you feel somebody has accused another person of committing a criminal offense on this board. You know, like when YOU accused GM of working for Iran and aiding terrorists a while back under the alias "Sancho Panza". This you alleged, because he translated TLBTLD into a middle eastern language. Weren't you banned for that scurrilous charge? And now YOU have the temerity to accuse another poster of making false accusations, which of course they aren't, under your latest of anonymous login name? Really Sir!
Now I may be totally wrong with the above comment, but I don't think you can prove it to be false.
TC
Off-topic replies have been moved to: this topic (https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1236798902/0#0).
I'm sure you will find "Fighting Irish's" response to Grace's unsubstantiated allegation that he compelled an act of prostitution entertaining. GM will likely receive more subpoenas before its over and perhaps enjoy all of the attention.
You however, between your enjoyment of the show and your INTENSE Columbus research might take some time to look up the definition of temerity and perhaps compare its defintion to audacity and effrontery. While somewhat synonymous there are some nuances you seem to have missed.
Actually hardihood would be closer to the meaning you seek.
Gentlemen, Grace's post is hardly worth fighting over. GM moved it to discarded posts and I am taking the necessary steps to remedy the situation within the confines of the law. In my opinion this was nothing more than a cheap attempt on the part of the defendants to intimidate, scare or rattle me. It was just another desperate act by desperate men. Rest assured that there is now a Jane Doe #1.
All of my tests are audio and video taped just for this kind of situation. Nuff said
OK, yesterday I have learned some terrible truths which have become problems. Some can be solved; most can not.
#1
In my opinion my counsel is inadequate for the purposes of this case. She is a good lawyer but is outmatched here in matters of aggressiveness; in other words she is too nice.
Solution:
She has bee informed last night that her services in the courtroom are no longer required. I will proceed pro se in the remainder of this case.
#2
This judge has already made up his mind and jeeps threatening my wife's future and I am sick of hearing it. Apparently he feels I am some overpowering, domineering, evil person who has forced her into this and am forcing her to stay. This of course is far from the truth; I have wanted to take the above step months ago and have been talked out of it at every turn.
The judge has let the defense get away with every unethical, borderline illegal, chicken shit thing they have done, while he wrings his hands in glee while he tells a woman that her law career is over if she continues in this case.
Solution
See solution #1
#3
There is no way I van get a fair trial at this point. I don't know if it is because the judge doesn't like me, afraid of losing campaign contributions or just wants to protect the good ole boys net work which Tarrant County seems to want to keep in place.
DO I thing the judge is intentionally not being impartial, yes. There I said it and it is something I have wanted to say for months. I would say it to his face if given the chance, but I can't seem to get a word in edgewise.
Solution
Bend over and hope for at least a reach around while I fight like hell and pull no punches; no fear.
#4
I have been told by the judge to consider the defenses offer of paying them. This is a clear indication that the judge has made up his mind after only two witnesses into the trial one of them dropped the ball about two dozen times and the other one couldn't remember much, and in some cases in my opinion outright lied.
Solution
As to the judge, it is not an election year so there is no solution.
Regarding the polygraph examiners there offer of paying them 10K is rejected. I have no chance of paying them 10K any more than I have of paying them 20 to 50 K. When I was presented with the settlement I believe the first response I had was "they can suck my left nut."
An offer was extended to them with a number that I feel I can pay over time and to Mr. Holden the offer was a bit more generous because I would be letting him off the hook legally for the lieguytoo thing. Otherwise that suit goes forward and it will be aggressively and publicly prosecuted.
#5
This turn of events has made a powerful good ole boys system almost invincible. The only victims here will be the community. These polygraph firms have stopped trying to put out quality work because, well, where else are you going to go. There is little competition and what competition there is lacks the recourses, funds and power to wage any kind of fight against an unbreakable wall of monopolies.
#6
Even is my some miracle I win, I still don't have a chance around this area.
Solution
Tarrant County and the surrounding counties are on their own. All people who want fair and unbiased polygraph testing are on their own. Everyone in the area who wants quality polygraph testing over the crap Wood's and Behavioral Measures is turning out, is on your own. All the polygraph examiners and treatment providers who told me privately to keep up the good fight while hiding in a foxhole can go to hell.
When I needed these people the most they were not there. Their fear and their indifference has made a strong monopoly stronger. I quit and I am out of here. Fenian Polygraph Services is moving out of the area; and when I say out of the area I mean out of the area. As I sit in my office alone, abandoned and broke the thought that I wanted to do the right thing and make the world a better place makes me want to vomit.
You people want Holden and Wood that much, have them. But when the truth does come out and someone has been found re-offending and passing polygraphs, don't get angry when I say I told you so; and don't come crying to me; I won't care.
That is the worst part about this. I simply don't care anymore; I am a man with literally nothing to loose any more.
This fight is now going to get ugly and I will pull out every stop and expose every dirty secret to the light of truth. I will fight in anyway I know how just short of demanding pistols at ten paces, personally I things would have been solved faster that way. After this fight is done, I am leaving North Texas, highly unlikely to return.
I hope everyone enjoys the bed in which they made.
QuoteIn my opinion my counsel is inadequate for the purposes of this case. She is a good lawyer but is outmatched here in matters of aggressiveness; in other words she is too nice.
Solution:
She has bee informed last night that her services in the courtroom are no longer required. I will proceed pro se in the remainder of this case.
I believe that the great Abraham Lincoln once said something notable with regard to pro se representation.
Joey
Truely a sad case. Even sadder, you and you alone created this mess, but you appear to have learned nothing from your mistakes. Let it go, pay off the people you sued, and look for a profession where a pugnacious nature is more useful than good judgement.
QuoteAll people who want fair and unbiased polygraph testing are on their own.
Kind of an oxymoron.
TC
Ah another anonymous coward heard from. Happy to criticize me behind the not so thick walls of secrecy without even reviewing the facts. You see everyone, I am not guilty of filing anything in bad faith; what I am guilty of is exposing the truth about what is going on. They also apparently don't like the fact that I can be a wee blunt and obnoxious when backed into a corner.
I have a question for you. Why should I care what a coward who hides behind a keyboard thinks about me? Right, wrong or indifferent, I seem to be the only polygraph examiner in the country who is brave and confident enough to post any opinion or fact and put my name on it. I don't suffer cowards or sneak thieves.
I hear a lot of criticizing but not a lot of people offering equitable solutions to the problem. I will be posting my proposed solution to getting this done quickly which will either vindicate me or damn me. My attorney is looking over my proposal now. Because Mr. Holden's lawyer has made it clear that they will listen to or entertain any new offer to settle (whose being unreasonable now Noah) posting it here is the only sure fire way of extending the offer to anyone.
Holden and his bunch settled and then changed their minds when the settlement didn't suit them. I did let it go. But I am not going to let go of the fact that I did not file the suit in bad faith and I will not let go that I was essentially lied to and conned into thinking there was a settlement by the defendants. It is just another example of polygraph examiner lying to get their way and then disparaging the person who points those lies out. This seems to be the SOP of the north Texas polygraph industry.
I did not file this suit in bad faith and I am not going to be extorted. I have no money to pay anyone. The defendants have been very effective in closing me down, I have decided to close my doors by the end of the summer, the end of the year at most. That is what they wanted; now they have it. If they want me to close down by the start of the summer I am fine with that. Essentially I will be out of their hair in north Texas. They have their little deals and apparently the deals still exist because there is no way they are doing a better overall job than I am.
My lack of witnesses is not due to a lack of witnesses. It has everything to do with the fact that there are people who knows what is going on but they are all afraid to step forward. When David Kilpatrick wrote this is an issue which needed to be settled in the Courts, we took that suggestion.
I am in the correct profession. I am a seeker of the truth and everything I have said has been just that or my opinion. It is very sad. It is very sad that someone agrees to a settlement and then backs out of it when he is caught with his pants down (figure of speech). It is sad that I have gone four months thinking that this chapter was behind me only to be tortured through another experience when it could have all been done in October. They are playing games with me just like they do with their examinees. I did make an offer which I have maybe half a chance to pay over time. I would drop the defamation suit (which is dead bang) and by the end of the summer I am closing my doors so they get their little racket back.
They rejected the offer. Who's being unreasonable here? They want to "punish me" and "teach me a lesson". It is that plain and simple. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with making an example of me. This is what happens when someone disturbs the balance of power which they created. They think I will cave just because they are stronger than me financially, politically, and in social status.
I have no money; I am thousands of dollars in debit; I have no assets; when I close down I will have no income; I hold no stocks or bounds, I have no life insurance; no estate and everyone is telling me that I have no future. So for the most part I rank no higher than a dead man or a rock. It is pretty hard to get any money out of either of them. That is what I find so funny about them. On one hand they want to destroy me and take me out of polygraph. They want to take my job and profession away form me. Then on the other hand they want money they will never be able to collect because they achieved their goals and drumming me out of the business. You can't have your cake and eat it too. They have already achieved their goal of pushing me out and isolating me. I have given an offer where they have a chance to see some of their precious money.
But beware of the phoenix who rises from the ashes. The ass you kick today may very well be the ass you will have to kiss tomorrow. That was one hard lesson we have all had to learn at one point or another.
I know there is no way I am going to get a fair trial. I know the Judge has already made up his mind. That is clear by what I heard him tell my lawyer. I now know there is favoritism because one lawyer gets a two week extension because he wants to go on spring break. I asked for an extension and am told that it would set the trial off a month or two and then he feed a bunch of bullshit that "justice delayed is justice denied." I listened to what he was saying and decided that he was right. There is no use in prolonging things to cost more money and heartache. Therefore, I withdrew my request. Days later, a lawyer got a special setting that he wouldn't give me so the lawyer can go to spring break. The Judge forced us into trial quickly in the first place and then he extends it over spring break? Come on! Justice delayed is justice denied seems to be a one way street in his court room.
I don't think the evidence is going to be brought into consideration at all. I think how the Judge and everyone else personally feels about me and my lawyer will be the deciding factor over me wining or losing this trial. Not even half of the evidence has been heard, but the Judge feels confident enough to tell my attorney that if she continues, she could be sanctioned and does so in a way that I can hear it. How am I supposed to feel? I'll tell you how I feel.
The Judge has made up his mind already, or at least that is the impression I am under. If I am found liable, I will appeal and will continue to do so until I am heard fairly.
I have been taking my medicine for coming here to AP. I am a damn good polygraph examiner, better than my defendants in my opinion. There are others who share that opinion, who are examiners, therapists, and officers alike. I have been able to get answers where others could not. In one case, I accurately detected sophisticated countermeasures where two of the defendants could not and have been beat.
I have an idea during the two week break in the slaughter. This offer was extended before and I will extend it again. A chance to end all of this quick and fair.
I will still step up and take any polygraph from any examiner regarding the issue of if I filed in bad faith. It will have to be an R&I to protect the validity of the test. The same rules I laid out in the April posting applies. But there is a catch. If I pass then it is done. Everything gets dismissed and we can all go back to the peace we all had from October 2008 to January 2009. If I fail, then I will stipulate to the 10K. I think this sounds reasonable. I am convinced that I will pass, because I tried to avoid having to file that suit. I know that there will be defendants who will fail because I am convinced that they are doing this.
I believe in polygraph that much where I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. I wonder if Mr. Holden believes in polygraph that much. He states it works every time he gets on the stand. Talk is cheap Eric; put your money where your big mouth is.
This is their big chance to shame me totally in the polygraph industry. On the other hand, it is also a chance for me to vindicate myself too. To me this is not a gamble. I know how my test will come out. I wonder if he is so convinced.
He could always accept the offer in which I have given, which goes off the table at midnight tonight Texas time. The offer for polygraph is open till further posted notice. But all the stipulation of the test will be agreed to in a Rule 11 before I sit for the test. I know better than to take anyone's word now.
If all the polygraph examiners on this board believe in polygraph as much as you say you do, this should be a reasonable offer. Or is antipolygraph.org right that even the most experienced polygraph examiners won't drink their own KoolAid?
Joey,
To discuss your case prior to trial is not wise If this is getting out of hand for you, possibly you can work in another state where you don't have these problems. To represent yourself is a mistake IMHO. I don't work in Texas anymore and have a good business in another state. Think about it for awhile. Best of luck.
Hunter,
Thank you so much for your kind words. I have a few options which I am exploring and have already started to lay a foundation for the future. There are two areas which I am primarily looking that have markets where slow but progressive growth is possible.
One thing is for sure, I never want to relive this nightmare again. I believed something was wrong and still do, I stand by what I did and truly believe I did the right thing given the situation I was in and the surrounding circumstances.
We are in an industry where honesty and integrity are promoted to others while these two virtues are cast aside as trivial in certain cliques within the industry.
Be that as it may, I feel I have devised an offer which everyone can walk away a winner in one way or another. I feel it is a very reasonable offer and an offer that will prove my commitment to my anti monopoly principles. It meets Mr. Holden's demands only without the apology. I would rather drink gasoline and piss on a brush fire before I apologize to the likes of him. If I were wrong I would apologize, but I am not so he will get no such pleasure from me, just as I am sure I will get no such pleasure from him. He will walk away with guaranteed money, and I walk away saving face. I'm happy, he's happy, other than hating each other's guts, we will all be happy.
This time there will be no more games in closing the deal. If he does accept the offer, it will be closed and finalized in an expeditious manner to prevent any future "misunderstandings." I can not and will not trust any of their handshakes and promises again. I am the only one who kept to the last agreement in good faith in my opinion. Extending this beyond October of 2008 falls squarely on the shoulders of either Mr. Holden and or Mr. Webster, in my opinion. Anyone who walks away with less than they think they deserve can gripe at one or both of them. One of them lied, bottom line, go and pitch your fits to them. I don't want to hear them; my give a damn is busted, as they say in Texas.
Hunter, once again thank you for your kind words and advice. You have been one of the few persons who have approached me as a gentleman and some day if our paths cross, you will see I always give the same respect and courtesy three fold. There are some who will call me a liar, but they already have knives with their names on it in my back.
the fighting irish
I have a question: What happened to the threat on your life. That's a felony not to be negotiated.
I guess you have learned a couple of things here. 1. When you're fighting an entrenched network whether it be city, county, state or federal, you gather your evidence (covertly if necessary) and present it in court rather than an open forum like AP. 2. you should never mention a judges name likewise. I am sorry you're giving up.
Best of luck where ever you land. Keep us informed
Quote from: Twoblock on Mar 15, 2009, 07:15 PMthe fighting irish
I have a question: What happened to the threat on your life. That's a felony not to be negotiated.
I guess you have learned a couple of things here. 1. When you're fighting an entrenched network whether it be city, county, state or federal, you gather your evidence (covertly if necessary) and present it in court rather than an open forum like AP. 2. you should never mention a judges name likewise. I am sorry you're giving up.
Best of luck where ever you land. Keep us informed
Fighting Irish, remember those meaningful wishes were offered to you by the same poster who thought it was "silly" when I complained that you were being anonymously accused of an unsubstantiated crime in this forum, then he insinuates that you are a quitter, then wishes you luck and encourages you to keep posting.
I suspect the Anti-Polygraph crowd cares little for your situation other than as fodder for their AP rhetoric. You alone need to decide what course of action will be best for you and your family in the long run.
At the end of the day they are what is most important or should be. If you make your decision with that foremost in your mind, it doesn't really matter what you do for a living or where you do it and it isn't likely you will take the wrong road.
At this point I think you should beware people who may just be trying to stir you up just for the entertainment value they get from your misery.
Ed Earl
You need to stop applying your stupid remarks to me. That does make you look silly. I do not take a threat on one's life lightly. The post I made to Fighting Irish was telling him what i thought he was doing wrong and how I would handle a threat on my life. According to his posts i thought he had a good case but was offering to much information to the defendants here which was apparently the case. I was pulling for him to win because i hate powerful, entrenched networks. I have been exposing them for 50 years. He seems like an honest man trying to do a reputable job void of any skulduggery that is rampant in any powerful, entrenched entity. Just because he's a polygrapher doesn't mean that I'm not sincere in wishing him the best of luck. There might be one or two more polygraphers out there with his integrety.
BTW - who were you posting as then and of what powerful network are you a part?
Tsk Tsk Tsk
OMG YOU HAVE DISCOVERED OUR SECRET POWERFUL NETWORK!!
I guess there isn't anything left to do but admit it. SIGH....
Twoblock, I am part of the Anti-Anti-Polygraph, Anti Cheating on Pre-employment Test, Anti-Lying to the Police, Anti-Uninformed-Curmudgeon, Network.
We are a small but dedicated group; fighting against those who try to convince people they are better off lying and cheating than they are telling the truth. We abhor those who continually cite statistically inconsequential anecdotes, over-generalizations and misinformation as proof of their arguments.
Yes Twoblock, We are the "AAPACPTALPAUCN". T-shirts, Coffee mugs and Mouse pads are available for a small fee. All proceeds will be spent educating people about:
Our belief that the use of polygraph countermeasures evidences a lack of personal and professional integrity,
The potential consequences of choosing the "Liars Path",
How to avoid using the preposition, "to", when the adverb, "too", is the appropriate word,
Dispelling the myth that Columbus was a great explorer who discovered that the earth was round, when he was actually a genocidal liar who repeatedly got lost instead finding his intended destination. and
Any other cause that furthers the goals of our organization.
We're kind of like lifeguards; people still drown, but if you have a lifeguard on duty, you'll save more than you lose.
We even have a secret handshake and high sign.
How is any of that, your concern?
Ed Earl
Now you sound like you're 6 bricks short of a load. What the hell does all this Pelosi rhetoric have to do with your misapplication post about me to Fighting Irish. Yet I have to remember that misapplication is routine in your trade.
Would you do better discussing particle separation???
Ed Earl, Twoblock (and all),
Any further posts to this message thread should substantively, civilly, and non-argumentatively address the original topic. If you wish to discuss unrelated matters, you may use the private message feature of this message board.
NUFF SAID!!!!!!!
There is already too much personal hatred and bickering going on, and it is something I am trying to put an end to.
I saw a wrong and tried to make it right and it appears that I lost.
I thought I was out in October and then they pulled me back in. I am not happy about it and I think it was nothing more than a cheap trick; but it is a trick that has thus far worked.
I am going to finish this and walk away form it. If Tarrant County wants these people that bad, they can have them. I am going to go and make an honest living, running honest tests elsewhere. The Texas Youth Commission thing came to a head and blew up in the States face; this will too. When it happens, not if, but when, I will be there smiling telling everyone I told them so and watch The Texas Attorney Generals Office send in their damage control.
From October to late January there was an uneasy peace, but there was a peace none the less. Despite the fact that I was still being isolated and pressured out, at least I knew a few nights of good sleep. I would like to get to that point again.
As far as the threats and the whole lieguytoo thing, it is clear the judge doesn't care and has no intention on addressing the issue. The focus is on giving the defendants justice at the cost of my entitlement to justice and satisfaction under the law. It is apparent that the judge condones the actions and is therefore unconcerned. Maybe he doesn't care maybe it is more common place than I thought and not an issue worth addressing even in passing.
The defamation suit is being severed and sent to another judge. I hope we can settle it and everyone can walk away. That depends on the defendants being reasonable. Either way they win no matter how this comes out. I am gone and things can go back to business as usual and the "community" can be "protected" by inconclusive results and false NDI's.
The past year has jaded me in a way that I had never imagined. I now truly feel the justice system is stacked against the little man even if the little man is right; Justice is not blind; and polygraph needs another overhaul like 1988.
In the meantime I just want to make a quiet living doing what I do best and better than others do. There are examiners out there with integrity who want nothing more but the best for society. I know a few personally and have spoken to many. Sadly it seems, we are a dying breed.
Now, I don't know how Christopher Columbus got into this debate, but the administrator is right.
Once I thought I was out, they pull me back in, again.
Get ready for a possible bombshell all, Holden has opened the door of confidentiality which may turn up being a Pandora's Box for a lot of people.
What is the latest on this situation? First Irish was suing Holden, then Holden sued Irish, next thing I read, Holden wins the suit, now there is some issue of confidentiality. Curious process.
I was once on DEFERRED ADJUDICATION PROBATION for 10 years back in FEB. 2006 up until MAY 2011 in DALLAS COUNTY and was also forced to ONLY go with whomever the 363rd DISTRICT COURT at the FRANK CROWLEY COURT BUILDING had on there list and you could NOT choose any LSOTP outside of that list which was started by DR. LILES ARNOLD.I felt like it was all setup to put me in prison and had my suspicions and fired my 1st attorney XAVIER DURAN and hired my 2nd attorney LISA A. FOX who happened to be present when the 363rd DALLAS COUNTY DISTRICT COURT PROBATION OFFICER told me if I wasn't pleased with the LSOTPs that were on their list.....to pick someone out of the telephone book.....and I did.It was DR. STEPHEN FINSTEIN from DOWNTOWN DALLAS near the EARL CABELL BUILDING.I went to him to get examined and tested and he could NOT find anything wrong with me and actually questioned the integrity of his colleagues and why they had subjected me to still be under their supervision.When the COURT PROBATION OFFICER found out.....they told me I couldn't see DR. FINSTEIN anymore and put me with LILES ARNOLD who eventually played a big part in sending me to prison.I believed that they were ALL in cahoots in sending MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE TO PRISON and am now trying to get my name cleared and hopefully exonerated by having ALL charges dropped against me because the of a detective lying on the POLICE REPORT that got me in trouble in the 1st place.Please....if I can be included in such a lawsuit feel free to contact me
I was once on DEFERRED ADJUDICATION PROBATION for 10 years back in FEB. 2006 up until MAY 2011 in DALLAS COUNTY and was also forced to ONLY go with whomever the 363rd DISTRICT COURT at the FRANK CROWLEY COURT BUILDING had on there list and you could NOT choose any LSOTP outside of that list which was started by DR. LILES ARNOLD.I felt like it was all setup to put me in prison and had my suspicions and fired my 1st attorney XAVIER DURAN and hired my 2nd attorney LISA A. FOX who happened to be present when the 363rd DALLAS COUNTY DISTRICT COURT PROBATION OFFICER told me if I wasn't pleased with the LSOTPs that were on their list.....to pick someone out of the telephone book.....and I did.It was DR. STEPHEN FINSTEIN from DOWNTOWN DALLAS near the EARL CABELL BUILDING.I went to him to get examined and tested and he could NOT find anything wrong with me and actually questioned the integrity of his colleagues and why they had subjected me to still be under their supervision.When the COURT PROBATION OFFICER found out.....they told me I couldn't see DR. FINSTEIN anymore and put me with LILES ARNOLD who eventually played a big part in sending me to prison.I believed that they were ALL in cahoots in sending MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE TO PRISON and am now trying to get my name cleared and hopefully exonerated by having ALL charges dropped against me because the of a detective lying on the POLICE REPORT that got me in trouble in the 1st place.Please....if I can be included in such a lawsuit feel free to contact me
I was once on DEFERRED ADJUDICATION PROBATION for 10 years back in FEB. 2006 up until MAY 2011 in DALLAS COUNTY and was also forced to ONLY go with whomever the 363rd DISTRICT COURT at the FRANK CROWLEY COURT BUILDING had on there list and you could NOT choose any LSOTP outside of that list which was started by DR. LILES ARNOLD.I felt like it was all setup to put me in prison and had my suspicions and fired my 1st attorney XAVIER DURAN and hired my 2nd attorney LISA A. FOX who happened to be present when the 363rd DALLAS COUNTY DISTRICT COURT PROBATION OFFICER told me if I wasn't pleased with the LSOTPs that were on their list.....to pick someone out of the telephone book.....and I did.It was DR. STEPHEN FINSTEIN from DOWNTOWN DALLAS near the EARL CABELL BUILDING.I went to him to get examined and tested and he could NOT find anything wrong with me and actually questioned the integrity of his colleagues and why they had subjected me to still be under their supervision.When the COURT PROBATION OFFICER found out.....they told me I couldn't see DR. FINSTEIN anymore and put me with LILES ARNOLD who eventually played a big part in sending me to prison.I believed that they were ALL in cahoots in sending MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE TO PRISON and am now trying to get my name cleared and hopefully exonerated by having ALL charges dropped against me because the of a detective lying on the POLICE REPORT that got me in trouble in the 1st place.Please....if I can be included in such a lawsuit feel free to contact me
I was once on DEFERRED ADJUDICATION PROBATION for 10 years back in FEB. 2006 up until MAY 2011 in DALLAS COUNTY and was also forced to ONLY go with whomever the 363rd DISTRICT COURT at the FRANK CROWLEY COURT BUILDING had on there list and you could NOT choose any LSOTP outside of that list which was started by DR. LILES ARNOLD.I felt like it was all setup to put me in prison and had my suspicions and fired my 1st attorney XAVIER DURAN and hired my 2nd attorney LISA A. FOX who happened to be present when the 363rd DALLAS COUNTY DISTRICT COURT PROBATION OFFICER told me if I wasn't pleased with the LSOTPs that were on their list.....to pick someone out of the telephone book.....and I did.It was DR. STEPHEN FINSTEIN from DOWNTOWN DALLAS near the EARL CABELL BUILDING.I went to him to get examined and tested and he could NOT find anything wrong with me and actually questioned the integrity of his colleagues and why they had subjected me to still be under their supervision.When the COURT PROBATION OFFICER found out.....they told me I couldn't see DR. FINSTEIN anymore and put me with LILES ARNOLD who eventually played a big part in sending me to prison.I believed that they were ALL in cahoots in sending MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE TO PRISON and am now trying to get my name cleared and hopefully exonerated by having ALL charges dropped against me because the of a detective lying on the POLICE REPORT that got me in trouble in the 1st place.Please....if I can be included in such a lawsuit feel free to contact me
I was once on DEFERRED ADJUDICATION PROBATION for 10 years back in FEB. 2006 up until MAY 2011 in DALLAS COUNTY and was also forced to ONLY go with whomever the 363rd DISTRICT COURT at the FRANK CROWLEY COURT BUILDING had on there list and you could NOT choose any LSOTP outside of that list which was started by DR. LILES ARNOLD.I felt like it was all setup to put me in prison and had my suspicions and fired my 1st attorney XAVIER DURAN and hired my 2nd attorney LISA A. FOX who happened to be present when the 363rd DALLAS COUNTY DISTRICT COURT PROBATION OFFICER told me if I wasn't pleased with the LSOTPs that were on their list.....to pick someone out of the telephone book.....and I did.It was DR. STEPHEN FINSTEIN from DOWNTOWN DALLAS near the EARL CABELL BUILDING.I went to him to get examined and tested and he could NOT find anything wrong with me and actually questioned the integrity of his colleagues and why they had subjected me to still be under their supervision.When the COURT PROBATION OFFICER found out.....they told me I couldn't see DR. FINSTEIN anymore and put me with LILES ARNOLD who eventually played a big part in sending me to prison.I believed that they were ALL in cahoots in sending MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE TO PRISON and am now trying to get my name cleared and hopefully exonerated by having ALL charges dropped against me because the of a detective lying on the POLICE REPORT that got me in trouble in the 1st place.Please....if I can be included in such a lawsuit feel free to contact me
I was once on DEFERRED ADJUDICATION PROBATION for 10 years back in FEB. 2006 up until MAY 2011 in DALLAS COUNTY and was also forced to ONLY go with whomever the 363rd DISTRICT COURT at the FRANK CROWLEY COURT BUILDING had on there list and you could NOT choose any LSOTP outside of that list which was started by DR. LILES ARNOLD.I felt like it was all setup to put me in prison and had my suspicions and fired my 1st attorney XAVIER DURAN and hired my 2nd attorney LISA A. FOX who happened to be present when the 363rd DALLAS COUNTY DISTRICT COURT PROBATION OFFICER told me if I wasn't pleased with the LSOTPs that were on their list.....to pick someone out of the telephone book.....and I did.It was DR. STEPHEN FINSTEIN from DOWNTOWN DALLAS near the EARL CABELL BUILDING.I went to him to get examined and tested and he could NOT find anything wrong with me and actually questioned the integrity of his colleagues and why they had subjected me to still be under their supervision.When the COURT PROBATION OFFICER found out.....they told me I couldn't see DR. FINSTEIN anymore and put me with LILES ARNOLD who eventually played a big part in sending me to prison.I believed that they were ALL in cahoots in sending MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE TO PRISON and am now trying to get my name cleared and hopefully exonerated by having ALL charges dropped against me because the of a detective lying on the POLICE REPORT that got me in trouble in the 1st place.Please....if I can be included in such a lawsuit feel free to contact me
Note that it is possible to include multiple attachments in a single message board post. To do this, click on the down arrow to the right of "Attachments," as illustrated below.
Yes,thank you for that bit of info on the multiple attachments on my post(s).Hopefully,someone can and will be willing to help on my various issues.
Someone please provide me with the name and phone number of the attorney that handled this case? I am search of one now to sue the City of Waxahachie, Woods and Associates of Arlington, and the Tarrant County CSCD.
Case Synopsis
Actor: ****** S. Served a period of 7 years CS. 21.11 (a)(1)
Investigator – Waxahachie Police - Investigator of original case as noted above. Co-conspirator to secure failed polygraph, the subject of this complaint.
Robert "Bobby" Jones – Polygrapher for Woods and Associates, Arlington Texas – Co-conspirator to secure failed polygraph, the subject of this complaint.
Joy Heather Hallum – Tarrant County CSCD (TC-CSCD) (no longer employed in this capacity) Co-conspirator to secure failed polygraph, the subject of this complaint.
****** S. had been under the supervision of the TC-CSCD for 5 previous years, after having transferred supervision to Tarrant County.
****** S. had secured, as a mandatory requirement of conditions of Community Supervision (CS), the services of Michael Chimarys, a Tarrant County approved provider of polygraph services for the TC-CSCD.
Upon initial transfer to Tarrant County, ****** S. went to Woods and Associates for his initial polygraph assessment, and was uncomfortable with the demeanor of Robert Jones at that moment. ****** S. sought the services of Michael Chimarys afterwards, and remained with Mr. Chimarys until his expiration of CS in the fall of 2008.
In October 2006, ****** S's oldest daughter, was interviewed by a CPS Social Worker, after the allegation was made of sexual abuse by ****** S. Keep in mind, that after ****** S's arrest for the offense of 21.11 (a) (1), both of ****** S's daughters were interviewed and it was learned that neither child had been previously assaulted or abused.
****** S. was ordered by his then SOTP, Michael Strain, as a condition of continued treatment, to submit to a polygraph, one that was directed by the investigator, a police officer in official capacity, against the protections of the 5th Amendment of the Constitution, and it was clear that a "Deceptive" result was sought.
Upon learning that ****** S. was ordered to submit to the polygraph examination, he made an appointment with Michael Chimarys, as this is the polygrapher that ****** S. had been using for the 5 previous years, without incident, or question, as to the legitimacy of the results returned to the SOTP or the CSCD.
The investigator demanded that ****** S. be examined by Robert "Bobby" Jones of Woods and Associates, to secure a "Deceptive" result, so that ****** S's ex- wife could then secure an order of protection from the court, as she was seeking to terminate the parent-child relationship, but didn't realize that she had abandoned the case when she moved from Texas.
****** S. arrived at Woods and Associates on the day of the appointment, accompanied by ****** S.'s best friend. Upon entering the business, Robert Jones met ****** S. in the waiting room, and immediately asked, without any form of greeting or any salutations at all, "Do you have anyone from Waxahachie PD here with you?".
This statement was to instill fear in ****** S., to ensure that no matter how truthful he was, the result would show deception, because ****** S. believed that he would be taken into custody immediately following the examination, because of the deceptive result.
******'s ex-wife, used that result of the failed polygraph to secure the protective order that was provided to her when she sought the services of the civil court, because she learned that all of the attached orders from the case would, because of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, become void as a result of her abandoning the case in Texas. ****** S's ex-wife had moved from the jurisdiction of the original court.
The police investigator, Joy Heather Hallum, and Robert Jones, all conspired to violate ****** S's Constitutional rights, and to deprive ****** S. and his daughters of each other, for the purposes of assisting ****** S's ex-wife in her attempts to further destroy the Parent-Child relationship of ****** S. and his daughters.
****** S. and his daughters are seeking civil litigation relief from what has been inflicted upon them, as a result of the actions of the people in positions of law enforcement authority, and extensions of the court, to impose upon and violate the Constitutional Rights of all involved.
The parties are seeking a civil judgment of not less than $3,000,000.00, ($1MIL each party).
It should be noted that ****** S was never prosecuted for the offense claimed in the allegation. There were too many witnesses to state the allegations were false.
My specific experience with this was that Texas government code make all requirements on parole be clearly provided at the time of signing your "contract of release"
They then do not even give you the option, instead just scheduling it.
They may argue that they are "better" or something.
But I recently recorded a whole interaction where I specifically read things off on the documents and had her verify them out loud.
Then, they changed the paperwork later.
The license board are currently investigating the issue.
It was against Ruiz in Ft Worth
There is a difference I believe in denying you the choice of a person shown to be corrupt, or having suits against them.
And promoting without the option of any other a person shown to be corrupt.
Update - April 2021 - ****S's daughter, the subject of the unfounded and coached allegations, is now telling her story to her local police department on how her mother trafficked her for prostitution at the age of 14, and how the scheme as I detailed in my previous post was acted upon by all of the people listed there. ****S's ex wife used the allegations against him as a cover for her trafficking. The FBI is also investigating this, and if found guilty, she's looking at a minimum sentencing guideline of 10 years.
Any help with good attorney information?
Michael Strain - SOTP - Fort Worth Texas
Tarrant County CSCD
Waxahachie Texas Police Dept
Richard Woods and Assoc - Arlington Texas
Joy Heather Hallum - Former CSO TC-CSCD
"Toni" Laitsch - Atty - Madison Wisconsin
State of Wisconsin DCFS - Dane County, Madison
****S is coming for each and every one you. You will answer for the wrongs you've committed against ****S's children. ****S will not stop until each of you are either out of business, your insurance has provided for his children, or you are disciplined by the appropriate agency governing your licenses, but you will be held accountable for all of the harm you've caused.
Wow, um, ok. A lot to go over here.
Having said that, I'm here for another reason.
Polygraph consumers have bigger problems to worry about other than the regular cast of characters that is normally discussed here.
There is a very good chance that after this year, polygraph examiners will not have to be licensed anymore and will have zero accountability. No more standards and no more oversight. The law is being sunset.
I'll set up a different string for that though.
Anyway
I see a lot of talk on here about suing examiners, CSCD's, SOTP's, and blah blah blah.
I'm still kinda looking some of this stuff over and trying to make sense of it. It seems disjointed and confusing. I am not poking fun at you, because at first that is how some of my stuffed looked. Anger can be a hinderance to clear communication. No one knows that better than me.
I see no cause number. Is this a case that is currently in the system? Do you have an Original Petition and Exhibits?
All this is kinda important information.
Also know this, any advice I can offer you, you may not like. But, it will be the truth.
I speak from experience when I tell you, this is going to be a long and ugly road. It will be costly, financially and emotionally.
If you are going to step up, you better do it proper. I assure you, there will be many spectators, but you will stand alone.
Thank you for the reply and the suggestions / opinion. This case has not yet been filed, so therefore, no cause number. I sent out a demand letter to all of the actors on my list, and included a copy to the governor of Wisconsin, because it was his CPS agency who failed my children. I am now waiting for responses, or the lack of them, from my demand for insurance information. I'm obviously not an attorney, but in order to preserve the statute of limitations on civil claims, a demand had to be sent. It will absolutely be ignored, because the pompass-assses who did all of this believed I would had been charged and convicted, and relied on all of that scenario just as the FBI believed Hillary was going to win.
I'll give all of this to the national media for publication if no one takes this seriously. I'm certainly not going to worry about exposing myself. If I have to go down in history as the most horrible human being on the planet for my daughter's sake, then sobeit. One way or the other, someone is going to be held accountable for what has happened to my daughter.
Hello
In some states they have discontinued polygraph examiner licensing due to the cost in managing the licensing.
Some of the bigger states being
Georgia
Florida
Both states have a large APA membership base. They have seminars for ongoing training and other topics.
APA Chapters also have designated training and certification for Sex Offender Testing.
At the end of the day if he or she is conducting a large number of tests per year why even have the follow up certification. It is basically a revenue generator for the local APA chapters.
CA, NY, DC Metro/Northern VA have large state APA memberships and polygraph licensing in those areas. Due to the politics in these three states will keep licensing alive for many years to come.
One possible way is to nationalize polygraph examiner certification. APA could provide a Certified National Polygraph Examiner designation.
As large as the APA is they could implement and manage a program like this, and working through the local APA Chapters for the purpose of quality control and assurance.
Just a thought.