I am applying for a position with the FBI and was just notified that my initial polygraph results were inconclusive. I didn't know anything about polygraphs before I took the last one, but have since done a great deal of research into the mechanics of the process. (This site was an incredible resource!) In particular, I now understand how probable-lie control questions work.
Here are my questions:
- How forthcoming should I be about my knowledge of the process, including probable-lie control questions?
- Will knowing the importance of the probable-lie control questions affect my "natural" responses to these questions?
- Is there any point in trying to disclose past misdeeds related to the probable-lie control questions during the pre-test interview (like stealing that piece of candy when I was 9-years old)?
- Any other advice this second time around?
In this situation, I think your best option may well be to be perfectly frank with your polygrapher about the research you've done and your understanding of polygraph procedure. Your polygrapher for the re-test might have a hard time believing that you haven't researched polygraphy after having had an inconclusive result the first time.
There is a risk that your candor will result in your polygrapher arbitrarily accusing you of deception and/or countermeasure use. But perhaps your polygrapher will correctly take your honesty about your newfound knowledge of polygraphy as a sign of your intent to answer all questions truthfully.
Your knowledge of the question types could influence your reactions to them, but its hard to anticipate how. Knowing that it's important to react strongly to the control questions in order to pass might cause you to react more strongly to them. On the other hand, knowing that it's only the relevant questions that are of real interest might result in your reacting more strongly to them instead.
I don't think there's any problem making minor admissions to probable-lie control questions, if asked. But there's a good chance that, after disclosing what you know about polygraph procedure, your polygrapher will choose to give you a Relevant/Irrelevant test (see Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf)), instead.
Quote from: applicant55 on Mar 10, 2008, 03:58 PMI am applying for a position with the FBI and was just notified that my initial polygraph results were inconclusive. I didn't know anything about polygraphs before I took the last one, but have since done a great deal of research into the mechanics of the process. (This site was an incredible resource!) In particular, I now understand how probable-lie control questions work.
Here are my questions:
- How forthcoming should I be about my knowledge of the process, including probable-lie control questions?
- Will knowing the importance of the probable-lie control questions affect my "natural" responses to these questions?
- Is there any point in trying to disclose past misdeeds related to the probable-lie control questions during the pre-test interview (like stealing that piece of candy when I was 9-years old)?
- Any other advice this second time around?
My guess is that you were almost there, but the scoring didn't come out completely in your favor. Otherwise, they would probably just DQ'd you and moved on the one of the next 500 applicants...
Yeah, tell the examiner you looked around the web for information about the polygraph. You were concerned and curious and naturaly went to the web for information. There, you found a lot of stuff, both pro and con. My opinion is, that if you are under 30 and say you haven't searched the web on something this important, you're probably lying anyway and it sounds rediculous.
Rather than trying to "figure out" the process, why not go in and be honest. Completely honest. Do not try to beat it, you'll come off looking like your trying to hide something or guilty of something.
After your testing, come back and let us know how you did.
Good luck,
Sackett :)
applicant55,
In case you didn't know, and for whatever it is worth to you (and no disrespect intended), Mr. Sackett is a practicing polygrapher.
TC, False Positive "self-wallower"
Are you the T.M. Cullen from NASA?
Quote from: applicant55 on Mar 10, 2008, 10:52 PMRather than trying to "figure out" the process, why not go in and be honest.
The two are not mutually exclusive, you know.
No, I am not from NASA.
A rocket scientist I ain't.
I am a retired Military linguist (Chinese).
TC
Quote from: applicant55 on Mar 10, 2008, 10:52 PMQuote from: applicant55 on Mar 10, 2008, 03:58 PMI am applying for a position with the FBI and was just notified that my initial polygraph results were inconclusive. I didn't know anything about polygraphs before I took the last one, but have since done a great deal of research into the mechanics of the process. (This site was an incredible resource!) In particular, I now understand how probable-lie control questions work.
Here are my questions:
- How forthcoming should I be about my knowledge of the process, including probable-lie control questions?
- Will knowing the importance of the probable-lie control questions affect my "natural" responses to these questions?
- Is there any point in trying to disclose past misdeeds related to the probable-lie control questions during the pre-test interview (like stealing that piece of candy when I was 9-years old)?
- Any other advice this second time around?
My guess is that you were almost there, but the scoring didn't come out completely in your favor. Otherwise, they would probably just DQ'd you and moved on the one of the next 500 applicants...
Yeah, tell the examiner you looked around the web for information about the polygraph. You were concerned and curious and naturaly went to the web for information. There, you found a lot of stuff, both pro and con. My opinion is, that if you are under 30 and say you haven't searched the web on something this important, you're probably lying anyway and it sounds rediculous.
Rather than trying to "figure out" the process, why not go in and be honest. Completely honest. Do not try to beat it, you'll come off looking like your trying to hide something or guilty of something.
After your testing, come back and let us know how you did.
Good luck,
Sackett :)
Yet, My poligrapher told me that my research probably hurt my results. ( probably cause, now I know he knew nothing for sure )
You can't win ..... it's a dice roll...... you'll see
Quote from: applicant55 on Mar 11, 2008, 12:15 AMapplicant55,
In case you didn't know, and for whatever it is worth to you (and no disrespect intended), Mr. Sackett is a practicing polygrapher.
TC, False Positive "self-wallower"
Mr/Ms Cullen,
be careful! Your sense of humor is showing...
Sackett ;)
Thanks for all the great advice! I'll be sure to let you know how it turns out.
FYI - I had "round 2" today. I told the polygrapher that I did some research and knew how the probable lie control questions work. Even so, he used that format. I actually felt that things didn't go well because I was easily able to identify the probable lie control questions and did not feel that "twinge" of anxiety when asked one that I obviously should be lying to. I also did not attempt to employ any countermeasures.
Unlike the first time, I only had two series of questions (I believe I had a breakdown series in addition the first time). He didn't push me very hard on any questions except at the very end, but only for a minute. I asked him what his recommendation would be, but he kind of dodged the question and made some vague comments about me reacting to some of the questions and that HQ would have to sort it out. It doesn't sound like a good sign... I hope I'm not another victim of this process! :-?
applicant55,
why don't we wait to find out the results of your examination, before you go running out to join the revolution...
Sackett
Quote from: applicant55 on Mar 10, 2008, 10:52 PMRather than trying to "figure out" the process, why not go in and be honest. Completely honest. Do not try to beat it, you'll come off looking like your trying to hide something or guilty of something.
It sounds like he did that the first time and he did not pass. Wouldn't a reasonable person want to "figure out" how he could tell the truth on a test that purportedly detects deception and yet still not pass?
Sarge,
it seems to me that being 100% truthful is NOT something one has to "figure out."
Sackett
Quote from: applicant55 on Mar 22, 2008, 10:19 AMSarge,
it seems to me that being 100% truthful is NOT something one has to "figure out."
Sackett
Well,
Truth is that being 100% truthfull does not ensure you a passed Poligraph test!!
Quote from: applicant55 on Mar 22, 2008, 04:34 PMQuote from: applicant55 on Mar 22, 2008, 10:19 AMSarge,
it seems to me that being 100% truthful is NOT something one has to "figure out."
Sackett
Well,
Truth is that being 100% truthfull does not ensure you a passed Poligraph test!!
Well, usually it does. I suppose some on this board would in fact be the exception...
BTW, polygraph is with a "Y", not an "i."
Sackett
Quote from: applicant55 on Mar 22, 2008, 10:19 AMSarge,
it seems to me that being 100% truthful is NOT something one has to "figure out."
Sackett
The aspect of his experience he is likely trying to "figure out" is how he could be truthful during his polygraph and not pass with flying colors.
I think that would be enough to make any reasonable person doubt the accuracy of the polygraph.
QuoteThe aspect of his experience he is likely trying to "figure out" is how he could be truthful during his polygraph and not pass with flying colors.
I think that would be enough to make any reasonable person doubt the accuracy of the polygraph.
Well thats just rubbish!
How could one tell the truth yet fail.
You are misleading the innocent.
Sackett knows what is talking about. If one were telling the truth, he'd know it.
You must be one of those venomous "antis".
TC
Quote from: sackett on Mar 23, 2008, 12:22 AMQuote from: applicant55 on Mar 22, 2008, 10:19 AMSarge,
it seems to me that being 100% truthful is NOT something one has to "figure out."
Sackett
The aspect of his experience he is likely trying to "figure out" is how he could be truthful during his polygraph and not pass with flying colors.
I think that would be enough to make any reasonable person doubt the accuracy of the polygraph.
Hey Sarge,
Well see, we all understand what your saying and it makes perfect sense, except of course ..... Sakett!!
He doesen't know how many examinees have passed because they were truthfull in thier answers as he doesn't know how many failed even though they were truthfull. Unless you want to believe that his
" answer anaylisis" is even more accurate than the Polygraph.
Quote from: sackett on Mar 23, 2008, 12:25 AMQuoteThe aspect of his experience he is likely trying to "figure out" is how he could be truthful during his polygraph and not pass with flying colors.
I think that would be enough to make any reasonable person doubt the accuracy of the polygraph.
Well thats just rubbish!
How could one tell the truth yet fail.
You are misleading the innocent.
Sackett knows what is talking about. If one were telling the truth, he'd know it.
You must be one of those venomous "antis".
TC
Oh yeah!? Well, well, uh.... well, you don't have poetry written about you, now do ya!??? ;D
Quote from: sackett on Mar 28, 2008, 11:09 AMQuote from: sackett on Mar 23, 2008, 12:25 AMQuoteThe aspect of his experience he is likely trying to "figure out" is how he could be truthful during his polygraph and not pass with flying colors.
I think that would be enough to make any reasonable person doubt the accuracy of the polygraph.
Well thats just rubbish!
How could one tell the truth yet fail.
You are misleading the innocent.
Sackett knows what is talking about. If one were telling the truth, he'd know it.
You must be one of those venomous "antis".
TC
Oh yeah!? Well, well, uh.... well, you don't have poetry written about you, now do ya!??? ;D
Gotta admit that is true! And funny man! ;D
Sackett
Glad you reminded of poetry being written about you.
Here's some more. Written good-naturedly of coarse at you're expense. Another office hanger for you. Hope you take it as lightly as it was written.
Last verse of "The Boxer" My favorite song of Simon & Garfunkel.
"The Polygrapher"
In the clearing stands a polygrapher
a liar by his trade
and he carries the reminder
of every CM that put him down or cut him til he cried out
In his anger and his shame
"I am leaving, I am leaving"
but the polygrapher still remains - ooh la la-la lalala
Lie lie-lie , lie lie lie lie lie-lie lie, lie lie
I have the other verses done, but don't have the time to print.
UPDATE:
I just found out that I failed the 2nd polygraph. I'm sure it comes as no surprise to many on this board, but I was 100% truthful on the relevant questions. What a sad, sad day!
:'(
applicant55,
I am saddened, but not surprised, to learn of this (all too common) outcome. You'll want to be sure to contest the polygraph results in writing. If you ever apply for any job that requires a security clearance, your FBI file will be checked and the fact that you "failed a lie detector test" will come to the attention of adjudicators. Your letter disputing the polygrapher's accusation that you lied should be added to your FBI file and is important for the purpose of documenting your disagreement with the results.
Quote from: sackett on Apr 01, 2008, 11:34 AMUPDATE:
I just found out that I failed the 2nd polygraph. I'm sure it comes as no surprise to many on this board, but I was 100% truthful on the relevant questions. What a sad, sad day!
:'(
When you told them how the test worked, and they knew that you knew, you were destined to fail. You see, the FBI will not tolerate individualist thinking. The FBI is like the Borg, (you will be assimilated). If you fight assimilation, you will be killed, (or in this instance, not hired).
I know several retired FBI agents, none of them were happy, and they all retired as soon as they could. You are better off...
Quote from: sackett on Apr 01, 2008, 01:37 PMI know several retired FBI agents, none of them were happy, and they all retired as soon as they could.
Without going into specifics, part of my job at the FBI would have been to change that mentality (futile or not)!
Quote from: sackett on Apr 01, 2008, 03:32 PMQuote from: sackett on Apr 01, 2008, 01:37 PMI know several retired FBI agents, none of them were happy, and they all retired as soon as they could.
Without going into specifics, part of my job at the FBI would have been to change that mentality (futile or not)!
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated... >:(
Quote from: sackett on Apr 01, 2008, 11:48 AMYou'll want to be sure to contest the polygraph results in writing.
Does anyone have a good example letter or template to use for disputing the results and requesting a re-test?
Also, should I file a Privacy Act request? And if so, should I do this concurrent with the dispute/re-test letter or should I wait until after the "appeal" process is concluded?
I would suggest a letter coming from your attorney. It will get much more attention than one yourself. Explain in the letter in clear terms what you are asking for, and that you expect a response within a reasonable amout of time, (setting a date) or an explanation by said date as to why they cannot fulfill your request for information.
Quote from: sackett on Apr 07, 2008, 10:51 AMI would suggest a letter coming from your attorney. It will get much more attention than one yourself.
Are you suggesting that I get a lawyer to draft my request to be retested? I appreciate the advice, but my understanding is that granting a retest request is a subjective decision and I'm concerned that too harsh of a letter will not be received well. I know it's a long shot, but I still want to try and get this job!
You have already failed their polygraph twice. They are not going to retest you out of the goodness of their black suited hearts. After second thought, though, don't waste your money on an attorney, either, you are SOL. Anything you do is a waste of time, move on with your liife. That's my advice, take it for what it is worth.
hoorah!