It is worth noting that on this message board, Doug Williams has masqueraded as a satisfied customer (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=2053.msg14860#msg14860) of his own services.
George,
I bought Doug William's book, "How to Sting the Polygraph" several years ago, which comes with a phone number to call and talk with Doug. I called and spoke with him a couple of times, and also found Doug to be somewhat over talkative. I couldn't get a word in edgewise, thus... I finally gave up didn't call him again. I found his book interesting and informative, however. His book lacks the quality in detail, as does the TLBTLD. Doug's book contains personal side-notes and comments that diminish his credibility.
triple x
Yea, he continued to tell me in a loud voice, CIA, FBI, and LE do not go that deep into background checks and do not give a shit over and over. Also he plugged his book and DVD 9128390128390128 times in a yelling pattern, the dude to me discredited himself with his constant babbling and ability not to let me get a word in.
fender85,
I called Doug Williams 2 or 3 times several years ago to ask a couple of questions about his book, and I was less not impressed to say the least. He either had too much coffee and was over stimulated... or, he simply doesn't know when to stop talking and let the other person speak.
triple x
Hey guys, I have an idea. Why don't you just tell people to call me and make their own decisions about me? (405/226-4856 – 12 hours a day 7 days a week) I can sometimes be entertaining and informative as well as rude, overbearing, and too talkative.
Fender85 – I didn't mean to make you so upset. I just was not interested in your business proposition – (Fender85 wanted to trade me some website design work in exchange for my personal polygraph test preparation training.) – but after we talked, I was thinking about changing my mind and taking you up on your offer to demonstrate what you could do - I even tried calling you back but didn't know what extension to ask for.
Triple X – try calling me again sometime – I'll try to stay off the coffee long enough to let you have your say
;D
Doug...you are an a-hole my friend. I too tried calling you once and you were rude and cold. Learn how to do business my friend. I had 7 friends all asking me whether they should buy your book and I told them without question not to. Not because it is not effective, but because of your attitude.
And...by the way. Comparing it to the pamphlet on this website your DVD and brochure pale in comparison.
Regards.
You are right, I am often rude and I will often yell, scream, holler, etc., etc., etc. I don't have much patience with fools, and I don't have time to talk to people who haven't studied my manual properly – I get over 50 phone calls and 150 to 200 emails a day. I don't promise to be your mommy – I do however promise to teach you how to pass your test, and that is exactly what I do! As I say on my website I will be your drill instructor – and I WILL teach you how to pass your test. As you say, my manual and dvd are effective - and I will teach you how to pass the polygraph test – just like I have over 125,000 other people.
Also if anyone is interested in "the rest of the story", just go to http://www.polygraph.com and click on TESTIMONIALS. And if do you get my manual and dvd, read the manual at least 4 times as I instruct you to do before you call me with any questions and you may actually find that I am very police and informative.
FYI, the person that started this thread later posted an apology stating that he called me back and that I was very polite and helpful – in fact I talked to him several times after that. His apology however, was deleted by the administrator.
Quote from: Doug_Williams on May 15, 2007, 11:28 AMFYI, the person that started this thread later posted an apology stating that he called me back and that I was very polite and helpful – in fact I talked to him several times after that. His apology however, was deleted by the administrator.
The user who started this message thread deleted all of his or her posts. No posts were deleted from this message thread by the administrator.
Quote from: Doug_Williams on May 15, 2007, 11:28 AMI will teach you how to pass the polygraph test – just like I have over 125,000 other people.
;D WOW! I had no idea Doug Williams has taught 125,000 people to pass a polygraph examination. GEEZ, just think at $50.00 + a pop, old Doug is undoubtedly a friggin MILLIONAIRRE! Let's see 125,000 X $50.00 = $6,250.000.00.
Over SIX MILLION bucks!!!
Oh that's right Doug, you ain't in it for the money... ::)
And all those calls! Let's see, 50 calls X oh let's just say 20 minutes per call (gotta be courteous and listen) equals just about sixteen hours a day. Okay, that makes sense. Now we add 150 to 200 e-mails a day and assume you answer just half....
Sorry Doug, now that I do the math, it seems you haven't slept since the invention of the internet (which I guess explains all the coffee....)
Of course, since you clearly have not had the time to spend any of that six million plus, the interest alone must be staggering...
Have you considered a vacation? I hear the Bahamas are nice and they will help you hide your money, which leaves me to my final observation...
I just wonder..
Does the IRS know about all of this?
Your new pal,
Nonombre.
P.S. Can you spare a little change? :)
Doug:
Let's be serious... 125, 000 clients/customers, x $50.00 ea, 150 to 200 email messages and 50 phone calls per day.
I certainly can't speak for anyone else, however. Embellishment and/or exaggeration quickly comes' to mind.
triple x
Gentlemen,
Allow Doug a little hyperbole, he is one of the few people who publicly states that the polygraph test can be beaten quite easily and uses his own name.
I have found many "guess" posts to be suspicious over the years and a little skepticism is good.
We welcome your input Doug but try to refrain from any free testimonials (and or possible deceptive postings, we might have to polygraph you) and we will try not to attack on a personal basis.
You have got to admit, some of your numbers do not add up.
Regards.
Fair Chance,
I think that Doug Williams' misrepresentations on this message board (see link in what is now the first message in this thread) are more than "a little hyperbole" and amount to deceptive marketing.
OK, now that all of you have had your shot at me, let's look at some facts. I started my crusade against the polygraph in 1979 – it was a three pronged attack; 1. LEGISLATION, 2. LITIGATION, & 3. EDUCATION.
LEGISLATION – I was the one person most responsible for the passage of the Employee Polygraph Protection Act – I didn't say that – the AFL-CIO and the ACLU said that!
LITIGATION – I have testified in numerous state and federal courts against the use of the polygraph. And I am scheduled to testify again next month.
EDUCATION – This is the basis of my claim that I have taught over 125,000 people to pass their polygraph tests. I wrote my manual, "HOW TO STING THE POLYGRAPH" almost 30 years ago. It was included as part of my testimony in the US House of Representatives in the beginning stages of the committee hearings on the Employee Polygraph Protection Act (EPPA) and was included in the "packet" of evidence which I had placed in the Congressional Record. Part of my education prong was to go on radio and television talking about my manual and the problems with polygraph testing. I was a guest on over 5,000 radio and a scores of television shows – just go to http://www.polygraph.com and look at the MEDIA section of my website to see just a few of them. During many of the radio talk shows I pushed for passage of the EPPA and told people that they could get a FREE copy of my manual by simply writing their representative and telling them they supported the EPPA. The AFL-CIO, the ACLU, and many other organizations also gave away thousands of copies to anyone who asked for them. Literally tens of thousands of my manuals were distributed during this period.
I also put on many seminars to various groups – mostly union members. Often there were literally thousands of people in attendance – and I would demonstrate my technique to members of the audience. Using my polygraph instrument and the information in my manual I would teach them all how to pass the polygraph. One session that comes to mind was a police union meeting in Texas where I taught over 2,500 people in one session alone!
Then in 1996, I launched my website http://www.polygraph.com and to date have sold – or given away (I even gave George one) - over 25,000 copies of my manual.
Actually, now that I think about it, 125,000 is a very conservative estimate!
I'm here to vouch for Doug's bona fides. I have long believed that his primary motivation in publishing the manual is that he believes the polygraph does more harm than good, and that he is not a Judas selling out his former profession for filthy lucre.
I have talked with Doug on the phone many times, and, with only one exception, he has always been courteous and helpful.
When I was developing a 40-hour countermeasure course at what was then the DoD Polygraph Institute, I wanted to include Doug's manual in the handout material for the examiners. I called Doug to see if I could negotiate a quantity discount rate, as I wanted to distribute several hundred copies within the Federal polygraph community. As soon as I explained that I wanted to use his manual as part of the curriculum, he immediately and unhesitatingly gave me permission to download the manual, reproduce it, and distribute it to every Federal examiner without any fee whatsoever. I sent him a written agreement for that, which he promptly signed and returned.
I was deeply impressed. If he were in it for the money, he would never have made that very generous offer. Even a small fee, multiplied by the hundreds of Federal examiners, would have been a considerable sum. I am convinced that he, like George and Gino, is acting primarily out of moral convictions rather than greed.
And just for the record, although many Federal examiners question both Doug's and George's loyalty to America, I have never doubted their patriotism. I respect both for serving honorably in positions of great trust.
Now, alas, to end on a sour note. Although I don't question their motives, I do strongly disagree with what they are doing. I think the distribution of their manuals does in fact harm the National Defense. But that's a different issue.
Just thought I'd add my two cents.
Peace.
Gordon H. Barland
Quote from: Gordon H. Barland on May 16, 2007, 11:43 AMNow, alas, to end on a sour note. Although I don't question their motives, I do strongly disagree with what they are doing. I think the distribution of their manuals does in fact harm the National Defense. But that's a different issue.
Just thought I'd add my two cents.
Peace.
Gordon H. Barland
Dr Barland,
I was hoping you would show up again. You are one of the few pro-polygraph folks whose opinion is actually worth something. But I have to argue the point that polygraph knowlege is dangerous to national security. Quite the contrary, I submit that it is the polygraph itself that is the main threat. Currently at our national weapons labs, a majority of the senior scientists and enginners. Folks we desperately need to maintain our weapons superiority and nuclear know how, are all ready to quit and move on, because of it. Leaving us extremely vulnerable, without that talent. You can't fool highly talented scientists with a pseudo-science. The US counts on the polygraph to vet those who would have access to government clearances and information. But still spys, have beaten the system and given up the ship, most notable of late is the Phillipino agent in the office of the Vice President. The polygraph eliminates those who would serve for nothing more than a polygraphers hunch that their is deception. And again its just another humans opinion. These polygraph gatekeepers, for lack of a better term, wield there power based on hunch from a bunch of squiggly lines on a computer screen. In a time of war we should be beefing up our teams not eliminating prime candidates because of an opinion. And your efforts to educate your brethern polygraphers on countermeasures, though laudable, lasts in the minds of those attending the polygraph meetings about maybe a day. Yes, I have seen you speak at one of them. Still the bottom line is, researching the polygraph, understanding the process, and disbelieving in it, is still not illegal or immoral. Whats immoral is the protection it provides bureaucrats with a way out, should another Ames or Hansson happen again. Its the polygrapher that let them slip by. see who will catch the blame. George put it, most elequently, "Rulers are not polygraphed, only the ruled". I do hope you continue to post.
Regards ....
Quote from: Doug_Williams on May 16, 2007, 10:42 AMI was a guest on over 5,000 radio...shows
Okay Doug, we'll believe you if it makes you feel better. It's your story and you can tell it anyway you want.... ::)
Yes "nonombre" 5000! Does that seem like a lot to you? During the time I was on CBS 60 Minutes and making the night time talk shows on national television, 60 Minutes was the most popular news magazine show in the country - literally millions of viewers - and they showed my segment 5 times in a two year period! That caused a lot of interest in the local radio talk show markets. I was, and still am, a very popular radio talk show guest. But during that period it was not unusual for me to do 3 or more five or ten minute segments a day. My website, http://www.polygraph.com gets around ten thousand hits a day, and has for over 10 years. And I have been doing this crusade against the polygraph and those of you who use it for almost 30 years. How long have you been running polygraph tests - half that long? As to whether you believe me or not I couldn't care less - I certainly don't believe any of the BS you post!
Eos Jupitor said to Dr. Barland: "Dr Barland,
I was hoping you would show up again. You are one of the few pro-polygraph folks whose opinion is actually worth something."
Why should his opinion mean something more than other examiners? His research shows (as I recall) underwhelming success in utilizing TLBTLT. He certainly has conveyed in lectures that polygraph needs improvement (as I and scores of others do)---his humility is an attractive trait indeed----but his honoring of posters' professed patriotism is likely little more than lip service. No one doubts that GWB is a fine patriot, but jesus what lousy outcomes from his patriotism. So why give Dr. B. a butt hickey? Aren't you going to check to see if his phd is from a Mad magazine ad? Why don't you tell him that he is reading entrails or analyzing tea leaves----and finish with the brady-bunch predictable "you are deluding yourself...voodoo...."? What gives? Don't get me wrong, I do like to see civility---but is it sincere?
And also, doesn't George need to apologize for his gross mischaracterizations of D. Williams, a man that deserves no less than a presidential medal of freedom for his efforts in helping both the good guys AND the bad guys. Doug, you're an equal opportunity philanthropist. Machiavelli eat your heart out.
Palerider wrote:
Doug, you're an equal opportunity philanthropist. Machiavelli eat your heart out.
Palerider, your sarcastic comparison of me to Machiavelli is not as much of a slam as you intended. Read this and educate yourself. Pay particular attention to the last sentence: "The world must change it's vision of the cold, uncaring Machiavelli to the correct view of a patriot and a political genius." That does remind me of me - thanks palerider for recognizing that quality in me.
Niccolo Machiavelli
Niccolo Machiavelli was born on May 3, 1469, in Florence, Italy. He eventually became a man who lived his life for politics and patriotism. Right now, however, he is associated with corrupt, totalitarian government. The reason for this is a small pamphlet he wrote called The Prince to gain influence with the ruling Medici family in Florence. The political genius of Niccolo Machiavelli was overshadowed by the reputation that was unfairly given to him because of a misunderstanding of his views on politics.
Machiavelli's life was very interesting. He lived a nondescript childhood in Florence, and his main political experience in his youth was watching Savanarola from afar. Soon after Savanarola was executed, Machiavelli entered the Florentine government as a secretary. His position quickly rose, however, and was soon engaging in diplomatic missions. He met many of the important politicians of the day, such as the Pope and the King of France, but none had more impact on him than a prince of the Papal States, Cesare Borgia. Borgia was a cunning, cruel man, very much like the one portrayed in The Prince. Machiavelli did not truly like Borgia's policies, but he thought that with a ruler like Borgia the Florentines could unite Italy, which was Machiavelli's goal throughout his life. Unfortunately for Machiavelli, he was dismissed from office when the Medici came to rule Florence and the Republic was overthrown. The lack of a job forced him to switch to writing about politics instead of being active. His diplomatic missions were his last official government positions.
When Machiavelli lost his office, he desperately wanted to return to politics. He tried to gain the favor of the Medici by writing a book of what he thought were the Medici's goals and dedicating it to them. And so The Prince was written for that purpose. Unfortunately, the Medici didn't agree with what the book said, so he was out of a job. But when the public saw the book, they were outraged. The people wondered how cruel a man could be to think evil thoughts like the ones in The Prince, and this would come back to haunt him when he was alive and dead. However, if the people wanted to know what Machiavelli really stood for, they should have read his "Discourses on Livy", which explain his full political philosophy. But not enough people had and have, and so the legacy of The Prince continues to define Machiavelli to the general public.
A few years later the Medici were kicked out of Florence. The republic was re-established, and Machiavelli ran to retake the office he had left so many years ago. But the reputation that The Prince had established made people think his philosophy was like the Medici, so he was not elected. And here the sharp downhill of his life began. His health began to fail him, and he died months later, in 1527.
Machiavelli had been unfairly attacked all of his life because of a bad reputation. But it only got worse after he died. He was continually blasted for his "support" of corrupt ruling. In fact, Machiavellian now means corrupt government. Only recently has his true personality come to light. The world must change it's vision of the cold, uncaring Machiavelli to the correct view of a patriot and a political genius.
So you feel up to the characterization of political genius? All aside, I appreciate the lesson in post-distortion history. Incidentally, did you know that Attila the Hunn loved children----he was a victim of smear I tell you! My remarks refferred to your triangulation------profiting by both adversarial sides of the poly divide. It is a perfect throne. To sell a disease and cure simultaneously is quite notable. The folks will argue which sides of polygraph fall into the "disease" and which to the "cure."
Quote from: palerider on May 16, 2007, 08:09 PMEos Jupitor said to Dr. Barland: "Dr Barland,
I was hoping you would show up again. You are one of the few pro-polygraph folks whose opinion is actually worth something."
Why should his opinion mean something more than other examiners? His research shows (as I recall) underwhelming success in utilizing TLBTLT. He certainly has conveyed in lectures that polygraph needs improvement (as I and scores of others do)---his humility is an attractive trait indeed----but his honoring of posters' professed patriotism is likely little more than lip service. No one doubts that GWB is a fine patriot, but jesus what lousy outcomes from his patriotism. So why give Dr. B. a butt hickey? Aren't you going to check to see if his phd is from a Mad magazine ad? Why don't you tell him that he is reading entrails or analyzing tea leaves----and finish with the brady-bunch predictable "you are deluding yourself...voodoo...."? What gives? Don't get me wrong, I do like to see civility---but is it sincere?
And also, doesn't George need to apologize for his gross mischaracterizations of D. Williams, a man that deserves no less than a presidential medal of freedom for his efforts in helping both the good guys AND the bad guys. Doug, you're an equal opportunity philanthropist. Machiavelli eat your heart out.
palerider,
Gordon Barland is worthy of respect and civil interaction, and he has a real Phd.
Something I highly doubt you will ever aspire too. Scientific study, verbal discourse, and the ability to rationalize and debate all fall into this realm. You on the otherhand decided to prove yourself as cavalier and not worthy of even reading, with the exception of the comic relief you provide. Beating you and your polygraph I do believe would be quite easy. THis is because you overestimate your abilities. I have no fallicies in regards to you being a legend in your own mind !! Actually catching a prepared, audacious, and intelligent subject using countermeasures, is not going to happen. Or just not caring and coming out with a inconclusive, I can do those all day. Beats you everytime.
Regards ...
Somehow I feel as though I'm on a martial arts message board being informed of how a poster can break my neck with his pinky-------and all the while the threats are being made by a 12 year old boy who has watched a few Bond movies. I imagine that your countermeasures would be quite effective in a lab where you pretend to steal $5 from your teacher who instructed you to do so (whew, what a caper.) As far as getting inconclusives, I would have gotten an inconclusive on my GRE if only I had had the cunning to urinate on my answer sheet upon completion. Maybe your boast of getting inconclusives at will is an accomplishment in the hospital security shack, but in the world of intrepid counterworks, it's like pooping in a urine sample. awesome feat man, awesome.
Palerider,
Dealing with the used car salesmen mentality is easy, not much of a leap from that to a PDD examiner. But the bitterness I am seeing in your post speaks volumes about how bad your being beat, especially by the information provided on this website as well as by Doug Williams. I have a copy of his stuff too. It must be tough to go home at night and not fully trust yourself, not knowing if you were beat by countermeasures today. But thats ok, you can tell yourself in the mirror, on how great you really are. Since you never will know, I may have been one of the ones to beat you. ;) Or even better I could have been the one standing next to you at the last polygraph association meeting. But just like countermeasures, you will never know.
All the best !!
Quote from: Doug_Williams on May 16, 2007, 07:54 PMYes "nonombre" 5000! Does that seem like a lot to you? During the time I was on CBS 60 Minutes and making the night time talk shows on national television, 60 Minutes was the most popular news magazine show in the country - literally millions of viewers - and they showed my segment 5 times in a two year period! That caused a lot of interest in the local radio talk show markets. I was, and still am, a very popular radio talk show guest. But during that period it was not unusual for me to do 3 or more five or ten minute segments a day. My website, http://www.polygraph.com gets around ten thousand hits a day, and has for over 10 years. And I have been doing this crusade against the polygraph and those of you who use it for almost 30 years. How long have you been running polygraph tests - half that long? As to whether you believe me or not I couldn't care less - I certainly don't believe any of the BS you post!
Doug,
What your post implies is that on 5000 separate occasions, you sat down with a radio host and was interviewed. You are claiming FIVE THOUSAND INDIVIDUAL radio interviews...
My dear deluded friend...
Ronald Reagan was not interviewed 5000 times.
Madonna has not been interviewed 5000 times.
The Beatles were not interviewed 5000 times.
But a washed up, couldn't hack the job, ex Oklahoma cop with a two bit amateurish website, is interviewed 5000 times?
As they like to say on this website, prove it. Show me a verifible list. Until that time, you my friend are the one who is totally filled to overflowing with most pungent form of B.S.
Have a nice day, my "famous" friend...
Nonombre 8-)
Eosjupiter said "Palerider,
Dealing with the used car salesmen mentality is easy, not much of a leap from that to a PDD examiner. But the bitterness I am seeing in your post speaks volumes about how bad your being beat, especially by the information provided on this website as well as by Doug Williams. I have a copy of his stuff too. It must be tough to go home at night and not fully trust yourself, not knowing if you were beat by countermeasures today. But thats ok, you can tell yourself in the mirror, on how great you really are. Since you never will know, I may have been one of the ones to beat you. Or even better I could have been the one standing next to you at the last polygraph association meeting. But just like countermeasures, you will never know.
All the best !! "
Oh my gosh. The thought of you attending those ultra secret masonic ufo cover-up polygraph association meetings ---undetected no less---sends shivers down my crack. Worse yet, if I were to face your magnificent and forceful aura in the poly room----I'm afraid that your mastery of human deception would cause me to seek counseling---maybe even drive me to a new profession. My god, you could be underneath my chair right now as I type, so close to my privates that you could actually blow on them.
Palerider,
Dam its been such a long time since I have had this much fun. You polygraphers have been absent way too long as of late. But "shiver down my crack, "and blowing on your genitals", I guess with nothing else going for you latent, forbidden fantasies must be all you have. For it appears ad-hom attacks are all you got. And yes I have no worries about the outcome of any polygraph I may again have to take. Deception, like chess is a practiced art !! 8-)
Not that you can tell !!
Regards ...
I just ran to the store for tommorrow's breakfast and I saw a balding man with bad teeth buying "high times," was that you? Now I think you're everywhere. :-?
I don't believe your testimonials. Have you ever heard of remote viewing?
You are the one being watched. ;)
palerider,
What sour grapes, I expected more from such an eloquent debater. As far as being watched, I really could care less. As researching, understanding, and disbelieving in polygraphy is not a crime.
And neither is countermeasures or the use their of. And as far as I remember, my rights to free speech haven't been revoked either. And I push the anti rhetoric as much and often as possible. So I highly doubt I will ever be polygraphed again. As I won't put up with it. Not unless I get a polygrapher I really want to mess with. It would give me great pleasure to have sport with him.
And again, its not like that examiner could tell who he has in the seat.
Regards ....
No sour grapes here man. I'm calling your bluff. Like former privates who, at bars, tell women that they were in special forces, I believe that your prowess regarding polygraph domination is hooey. Send me a private message telling me under what circumstances you have been polygraphed and I'll give you client priv. Give me no identifiable info (name, state.) Impress me and I will give you props. I wish that I could post some charts of countermeasures. For chrissakes, a polygraph debate forum without actual field polygraph charts?! WTF?
This site is all talk---regarding the claims of countermeasure (false negatives) success. You are basically demanding of the polgraph community the equivelant of proving that bigfoot doesn't exist. The burden of proof lies on the lap of you, the advertiser. Do you guys sell antipolygraph.org dueche bags?
Quote from: palerider on May 17, 2007, 09:13 AMI wish that I could post some charts of countermeasures.
You can. All you need to do is scan them, save them in JPEG, GIF, or PNG format, and attach them to a message board post.
Quote from: palerider on May 17, 2007, 09:13 AMNo sour grapes here man. I'm calling your bluff. Like former privates who, at bars, tell women that they were in special forces, I believe that your prowess regarding polygraph domination is hooey. Send me a private message telling me under what circumstances you have been polygraphed and I'll give you client priv. Give me no identifiable info (name, state.) Impress me and I will give you props. I wish that I could post some charts of countermeasures. For chrissakes, a polygraph debate forum without actual field polygraph charts?! WTF?
This site is all talk---regarding the claims of countermeasure (false negatives) success. You are basically demanding of the polgraph community the equivelant of proving that bigfoot doesn't exist. The burden of proof lies on the lap of you, the advertiser. Do you guys sell antipolygraph.org dueche bags?
palerider,
Send your charts and what ever else you want, and attach them as George has said to either his or my ID. I always consider and give due diligence to real data. And being able to read both the 3 and 7 point scoring system helps too. Yes we can read the charts. Its not rocket surgery to do this. Again you are free to express your viewpoints, unlike your friends website over at the pro polygraph site. But you really need to work on your verbage and base your statements from a position of knowlege. These Ad-Hom attacks really make you look bad. And again its the examiner that has to prove they can catch the countermeasures. And lets be honest here, a good chess player never reveals winning moves or strategies.
Regards ...
EosJupiter,
Files cannot be attached to individual users (through private messages), but only to public posts. Palerider expressed the wish that he could post some countermeasure charts. He can, and I have explained how.
There should be no issue here of "hiding strategies." Palerider has claimed elsewhere (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=3577.msg24786#msg24786) that identifying charts with countermeasures was "very much like distinguishing steak from spam."
Palerider,
Please posts the countermeasure charts you wanted to share, and explain how you tell "steak from spam." You might want to start a new message thread for this purpose.
Quote from: George W. Maschke on May 17, 2007, 11:55 PMEosJupiter,
Files cannot be attached to individual users (through private messages), but only to public posts. Palerider expressed the wish that he could post some countermeasure charts. He can, and I have explained how.
There should be no issue here of "hiding strategies." Palerider has claimed elsewhere (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=3577.msg24786#msg24786) that identifying charts with countermeasures was "very much like distinguishing steak from spam."
Palerider,
Please posts the countermeasure charts you wanted to share, and explain how you tell "steak from spam." You might want to start a new message thread for this purpose.
Palerider,
Be careful here, man. These guys would LOVE to get their hands on a set of charts that demonstrate how we separate out CM's from legitimate responses. George Maschke has been after that data for a long time to give him an opportunity to adjust his methods of attack...
Don't let these guys goad you. The outcome isn't worth it...
Regards,
Nonombre
Quote from: nonombre on May 18, 2007, 06:39 PMQuote from: George W. Maschke on May 17, 2007, 11:55 PMEosJupiter,
Files cannot be attached to individual users (through private messages), but only to public posts. Palerider expressed the wish that he could post some countermeasure charts. He can, and I have explained how.
There should be no issue here of "hiding strategies." Palerider has claimed elsewhere (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=3577.msg24786#msg24786) that identifying charts with countermeasures was "very much like distinguishing steak from spam."
Palerider,
Please posts the countermeasure charts you wanted to share, and explain how you tell "steak from spam." You might want to start a new message thread for this purpose.
Palerider,
Be careful here, man. These guys would LOVE to get their hands on a set of charts that demonstrate how we separate out CM's from legitimate responses. George Maschke has been after that data for a long time to give him an opportunity to adjust his methods of attack...
Don't let these guys goad you. The outcome isn't worth it...
Regards,
Nonombre
Nonombre,
There's little need to worry about Palerider revealing the secret countermeasure divining rituals of the polygraph community. Palerider was no doubt lying when he wrote that he wished he "could post some charts of countermeasures" and that identifying them is "like distinguishing steak from spam."
The polygraph community has no reliable method of countermeasure detection, so the first line of defense is to discourage their use in the first place. Hence Palerider's disinformational campaign on this message board.
If polygraphy were truly robust against countermeasures, it wouldn't matter whether subjects were knowledgeable about 1) polygraph procedure, 2) polygraph countermeasures, and 3) polygraph counter-countermeasures.
Quote
Palerider,
Be careful here, man. These guys would LOVE to get their hands on a set of charts that demonstrate how we separate out CM's from legitimate responses. George Maschke has been after that data for a long time to give him an opportunity to adjust his methods of attack...
Don't let these guys goad you. The outcome isn't worth it...
Regards,
Nonombre
We already know this, but thanks for confirming in writing that you are concerned about George's "methods of attack."
I'm sure that's not what you really meant to communicate... :-X
You say the outcome isn't worth it... I'm curious, what would be the worst case senario?
Noombre makes a good point. Posting my countermeasure charts will elicit one thing, and one thing only. George and the rest of the gang here on gilligans island will claim that the countermeasures are poor---and of course I would agree.
Eos said:"And lets be honest here, a good chess player never reveals winning moves or strategies. "
I can't argue with you there----except that the site claims to offer winning strategies and yet only offers anonymous stories of success at the game. If you are the Bobby Fisher of polygraph, than show us a real match through freedom of info act requests.
If George was able to acquire the DOD's new scoring criteria only months after internal release, than why can't George supply ---with his resources and turncoats----his own countermeasure charts (graphic success stories.) Isn't it ironic that you nay sayers are always making claims---such as getting your false negatives--and that you have offered not a shred of proof? Can't one of you guys offer your own successful countermeasures rather than imploring an examiner to offer unsuccessful ones? Essentially, this site serves as a "miracle diet"---only without a single picture of the before and after bikini pics. I'm afraid that Antipolygraph.org is no longer the little cult site---in that you have to provide your readership with the pudding. Posters like Eosjupiter claim to have lost 200lbs off the George M. site and I would just like to see a picture of such an outlandish claim ---rather than resorting to me having to post pics of your fat-assed, unsuccessful readership's failures---figuratively speaking. It's simple. This site claims to have a successful recipe to beat the test. Show your readership those successes-------successes made directly as a result of TLBTLD.
I saw a tattered antipolygraph.org bumper sticker on the back of a pizza delivery car. No doubt another success story. I wonder if he was also former special forces----or maybe he was just digithead.
Excuse me while I test pediphiles, your #1 visitors. I'll be looking for spam. What would your father think, George? My guess is that he would be proud of your work ethic, but disgraced over your chosen cause.
Quote from: palerider on May 20, 2007, 10:18 AMIsn't it ironic that you nay sayers are always making claims---such as getting your false negatives--and that you have offered not a shred of proof?
I think it is more ironic that you are decrying the lack of proof offered to show a false negative, when the only "proof" offered to show the three false positives I received was the incorrect opinion of the polygraph examiner.
Perhaps it is simply the limitation of the polygraph itself that, at the conclusion of a test, the only proof that a person passed or failed is the claims made by the examiner and the examinee.
I think that, given such a limitation, the utility of the polygraph is only reasonably used in an attempt to elicit a damaging admission. If at the end of the test there has been no damaging admission the utility of the polygraph has been fully expended.
I use an Intoxilyzer quite often at work in order to measure the blood alcohol content of people I arrest for DUI. If there was a web site which claimed wearing a blue shirt, or singing a song in your head, or biting the side of your tongue while blowing into the machine would permit you to pass even if you had just downed a liter of vodka I would probably get a laugh out of it, but I certainly wouldn't be upset by it. I cannot imagine addressing hideously rude ad hominem attacks at the owner of the web site because he makes available information that, in my opinion, doesn't work. The Intoxilyzer is a scientifically valid method of determining a person's blood alcohol content so fanciful theories of how to "beat" the test wouldn't bother me at all.
The anger directed at George and the comments made, sometimes irresponsibly referencing pedophiles and how George is allegedly "helping" them, indicate to me that the information George has collected and made available on this site is accurate and extremely damaging to the illusion of polygraph testing.
Just to remind everyone, George did not invent the information contained in TLBTLD, he merely amassed it through research. That means the information George makes available on this site was always freely available to anyone who wanted to take the time to find it.
Since the polygraph examiners who post on this site routinely write that countermeasures don't work, and the polygraph is, in fact, a highly accurate instrument for the detection of deception regardless of what the "anti" literature says, why do they spend so much time, energy, and bile vilifying a person who merely collected freely available information and published it in an e-book?
Quote from: palerider on May 20, 2007, 10:18 AMNoombre makes a good point. Posting my countermeasure charts will elicit one thing, and one thing only. George and the rest of the gang here on gilligans island will claim that the countermeasures are poor---and of course I would agree.
So post the charts and explain why the countermeasures are poor. I am prepared to change my views regarding the advisability of using polygraph countermeasures, and I know precisely what it would take to so persuade me:
evidence. Thus far, the polygraph community has offered none. Why don't you be the first?
QuoteEos said: "And lets be honest here, a good chess player never reveals winning moves or strategies. "
I can't argue with you there----except that the site claims to offer winning strategies and yet only offers anonymous stories of success at the game.
Wrong. The countermeasure strategies described in Chapter 4 of
The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf) are not based on "anonymous stories of success at the game." They are based on the polygraph literature, again, with references that skeptical readers may check for themselves.
QuoteIf you are the Bobby Fisher of polygraph, than show us a real match through freedom of info act requests.
Specifically what files do you suggest that we request under the Freedom of Information Act?
QuoteIf George was able to acquire the DOD's new scoring criteria only months after internal release, than why can't George supply ---with his resources and turncoats----his own countermeasure charts (graphic success stories.) Isn't it ironic that you nay sayers are always making claims---such as getting your false negatives--and that you have offered not a shred of proof? Can't one of you guys offer your own successful countermeasures rather than imploring an examiner to offer unsuccessful ones? Essentially, this site serves as a "miracle diet"---only without a single picture of the before and after bikini pics. I'm afraid that Antipolygraph.org is no longer the little cult site---in that you have to provide your readership with the pudding. Posters like Eosjupiter claim to have lost 200lbs off the George M. site and I would just like to see a picture of such an outlandish claim ---rather than resorting to me having to post pics of your fat-assed, unsuccessful readership's failures---figuratively speaking. It's simple. This site claims to have a successful recipe to beat the test. Show your readership those successes-------successes made directly as a result of TLBTLD.
First, I must strongly disagree with your characterization of those who have provided information to AntiPolygraph.org as being "turncoats." Truth-telling in the public interest is patriotic.
As for why we don't post the polygraph charts of those who have successfully employed countermeasures: when a person does successfully employ polygraph countermeasures,
the polygraph examiner doesn't know it. So how would we obtain the charts?!
QuoteI saw a tattered antipolygraph.org bumper sticker on the back of a pizza delivery car. No doubt another success story. I wonder if he was also former special forces----or maybe he was just digithead.
Sure you did... While our bumber stickers may fade with age, they are made of durable vinyl and not prone to tattering:
(http://antipolygraph.org/graphics/bumper-sticker-2.jpg) (http://www.cafepress.com/antipolygraph.53109675)
QuoteExcuse me while I test pediphiles, your #1 fans. What would your father think George?
It is frightening to think that a charlatan with a polygraph machine such as yourself who doesn't even know how to spell "pedophile" would be making decisions regarding such persons' compliance or non-compliance with the terms of their probation/parole.
Quote from: palerider on May 20, 2007, 10:18 AMI saw a tattered antipolygraph.org bumper sticker on the back of a pizza delivery car. No doubt another success story. I wonder if he was also former special forces----or maybe he was just digithead.
It's funny that you need to imagine me as some bitter pizza deliveryman unable to find work in his chosen field because I couldn't pass a polygraph. Do you often engage in revenge fantasies?
Once again, I have never taken a polygraph nor have I been harmed by the polygraph. I am a criminal justice researcher dismayed by the use of this pseudoscience in law enforcement...
Why do you engage in ad hominem and misdirection? Your continued reliance on logical fallacies is a clear indication of your utter desperation to disparage this site and its information because it is a direct threat to your livelihood. You cannot and you have not cited any research which undermines any of the countermeasure information contained in the peer-reviewed literature summarized by AntiPolygraph.org...
palerider,
Without even lifting a finger, your posts prove that your ability to handle intellect and audacity, is severly limited. Weak posts, weak thoughts,and weak proof, again the only thing you got is ad-hominem attacks. I state again I have no doubt about who the superior intellect would be in the polygraph room, and again the outcome!! But in fairness I will grant you that before I gleened my polygraph knowlege, I would have believed and trusted the polygrapher giving me the test, which was my first mistake. And never again !!! And I fully plan should it happen that I take one again, the complete honesty method will be used, and I will inform that polygrapher, just how much I know, what I truly believe, and just how far to stuff the polygraph. It will guarantee that I never take another. I am not afraid of losing a job especially with any company or organization so narrow minded to put its faith in the polygraph. This beats you without even having to use countermeasures. But the best part is that highly trained, educated people will always work. Its the organization that wanted you, that loses out. And its happening more and more as college students get the knowlege to make an informed decision not to work for companies or organizations that use the polygraph. I am getting too old to put up with this kind of BS in my life. And I will not !!!
As far as SF types, you wouldn't know a tabbed individual, or the owner of a trident, if he came out and slapped you. Which might just happen if you got the wrong person pissed off in the polygraph suite. I will take the 200 lbs remark as a compliment. And do digest this, I have and will continue to train people what a crock the polygraph is. And so far not a dissatisfied customer. The sooner we put you polygraphers out of business the better. Which is why I believe you are so bitter. This site is really hurting you.
I'm afraid I've once again mistakenly transmitted the wrong tone of my posts. When I write you here, I suppose I feel a little like a graffiti artist, spray painting insults on the side of a sleazy pawn shop. I'm not scared of any of you, I rather think of you all like special needs clients----clients that talk of performing psychokinesesis------just like James Bond. Of course, if James Bond caused inconclusive polygraph tests------wow, what a feat.
I was out of town and couldn't log on to the site properly---different lap top, and I noticed that the rules of the message board are very implicitly against insulting posters and profanity---all things I've engaged in here as I haven't taken the site seriously enough. When I post, I do not create a scientific treatise or thesis on polygraph---and consequently, I don't bother with spell check---or even attempt at APA writing format bla blah blah. It's a message board, not a rigid uptight forum----or so I though. I will admitt that I loved the torture article by George----it was perfectly executed, and I agree with his views 100% regarding the subject. I feel bad for taking some of the cheap shots here, and I suppose you all deserve more respect despite my thorough disagreement with your opinions. I've never been as angry as my tone, and I have never been scared. Don't flatter yourselves. Again, I apologize to all of the chubby, sexless, James Bond fans here.lol
TO: NONOMBRE & PALERIDER
I find it especially amusing that the two of you express such
profound belief in the accuracy of polygraph technology. (NB
not science). You probably believe in the Tooth Fairy, The Man
In The Moon and Santa.
But I guess that if you faced the universal truth that the polygraph
is unscientific, outdated, junked science - then you would have to
seek a new career path.
How sad that it is that daily you park yourselves behind a computer
screen and find amazement at the unreliable, unstable data being
fed to you by 18th Century technology. You probably also believe
that your p/g is fully digital, computerised technology. (no it aint -
Still converting analogue data via a cheap-n-nasty transducer )
You know, I know, most people with a bit of grey matter know, that
the p/g is a base technology that can be manipulated at will by
examiner and subject alike. P/G mnfrs prop up sales by churning
out so called CM sensors (ha ha ) with which examiners try to impress
hapless subjects. If you're all so good - then why do you have to use
CM add-ons?? Because basically you dunno shite from shinola...
CM's are not news. CM's are part and parcel of p/g technology.
CM's is just another name given to a subject induced response.
Then you Einsteins pretend that you can tell the difference between
organic arousal (what hapened to 'natural' response ?) and artificial
arousal - dream on.
Most p/g cannot identify the most commonly used CM's by chart
analysis alone. That's because most of them should have stuck to
their old jobs where they really shone - like writing out traffic
citations.
One day you'll wake up and smell the coffee.
My god! To all anti-folk, you have a psychic on this board. When I read the above post, I was waking up AND smelling the coffee. :P
I think I'll go to the office and run some polygraph tests.
Quote from: palerider on May 23, 2007, 10:09 AMMy god! To all anti-folk, you have a psychic on this board. When I read the above post, I was waking up AND smelling the coffee. :P
I think I'll go to the office and run some polygraph tests.
Yo Surfer Boy - I sat in an Advanced class with 34 other p/g examiners.
Not one of them could identify CM's on charts presented by the
Instructor.
Go Figure and make it a big cup.