A federal judge has granted summary judgment to the defendants in Croddy et al. v. FBI et al., dismissing the case:
http://antipolygraph.org/blog/?p=70
The 19-page decision by U.S. District Judge Emmet G. Sullivan may be downloaded as a 90 kb PDF file here:
http://antipolygraph.org/litigation/zaid/opinion-29-09-2006.pdf
It is not known at this time whether the plaintiffs will appeal this decision.
I find it remarkable that the judge dismissed all concerns regarding the reliability of polygraphy in making his ruling. Justice has not been served.
To all Concerned;
Found these comments posted in a periodical for federal workers. The comments correspond to the lawsuit:
Link: http://www.fedsmith.com/articles/comment.viewall.db.php?articleID=1060
The comments are actually quite interesting as it shows the belief in polygraphs across the the different agencies is quite varied, and it appears some do not believe at all. I find this most humorous and it seems that the fassad is fading fast even in the Government.
I have no idea what the BOP is ... I am guessing its Bureau of Prisons (Justice Department ?).
Regards ....
Nice link, EosJ. It presents opinions on both sides of the argument.
LieBabyCryBaby,
Data mining is a hobby ... If the subject exists out there, I can and will find it. My BOTS are everywhere !!! And I always will post good or bad results from either opinion on the subject. Fairness in all things ....
Regards ...
I hope they appeal!!
George:
Quote from: George W. Maschke on Oct 02, 2006, 11:54 PMA federal judge has granted summary judgment to the defendants in Croddy et al. v. FBI et al., dismissing the case:
http://antipolygraph.org/blog/?p=70
The 19-page decision by U.S. District Judge Emmet G. Sullivan may be downloaded as a 90 kb PDF file here:
http://antipolygraph.org/litigation/zaid/opinion-29-09-2006.pdf
We know certain government employees are not required to pass a polygraph exam to hold responsible positions funded by our tax dollars. Judges are among this group. Thus, individuals who are not subject to certain searches and seizures reinforce these searches and seizures on the citizens. For our government to create, concoct and or plant false information during the search and seizure of a polygraph examination violates the right of US Citizens to be protected in their persons from unreasonable searches and seizures.
Our Constitution reads:
Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Lloyd Ploense
I think that it is a gross injustice that the federal government is allowed to subject its loyal empolyees to polygraph harrassment and abuse. If the polygraph isn't going well, the session quickly turns into an adversarial interrogation. Then, the loyal emploee, is berated, accused of sexual deviancy and accused of treason. This can go on for hours and hours and the loyal employee, who desperately wants to pass, keeps putting up with the abuse for hours, hoping to convince the polygrapher that he/she is telling the truth. The fact of the matter is, once they have made up their minds, no amount of talking will change their minds. I was interrogated, berated, accused of treason by two men for hours, while strapped to a chair. This session became very personal and ended with me admitting to being raped. The polygraph perverts wanted to hear all of the details and just refused to believe that I wasn't a traiter.
I have been a loyal government employee for 21 years and I was treated worse than any criminal that I have ever interviewed. I just can't believe that it is ok to subject our own people to this type of abuse/torture. I still haven't passed the test and my career is ruined, all for nothing. It is all bullshit, but there is nothing I can do about it.
There was a lot of lying going on in that room, but all of it was coming from the polygraphers. I find it ironic that I was being berated for being a liar, when I was telling the truth, and the polygraphers lied to me throughout the process. It's just rediculous. The emperor has no clothes. The government wraps itself in the cloak of ploygraph security, but their is no cloak. They don't catch any one, except for getting people to admit they smoked pot 20 years ago. They certainly didn't catch Proutty. If we had been spending more money on BIs, instead of contracting those out and relying on the stupid polygraph, we would be much more secure.
stoppolyabusenow
As I have posted here before, I will never understand why anyone would take this abuse. You should have ripped the hook-ups off and flattened them both.
Don't ever roll over and play dead. You'll get dirt thrown in your face every time. There is something you can do. You can write to newspapers, your congress persons and TV news magazines with your story and naming the sadistic bastards. There are links on the net on how to file a pro se lawsuit. There are also pro bono law firms.
At my advanced age, I will never have to take a polygraph and it's just as well because anyone calling me a liar or an sob (two things I will not stand for) to my face is gonna wind up on their backside. There are always other jobs around the corner. At 77, I can still through one hell of a punch. Had to do it a couple years ago.
Quote from: George_Maschke on Dec 06, 2007, 05:17 PMstoppolyabusenow
As I have posted here before, I will never understand why anyone would take this abuse. You should have ripped the hook-ups off and flattened them both.
Don't ever roll over and play dead. You'll get dirt thrown in your face every time. There is something you can do. You can write to newspapers, your congress persons and TV news magazines with your story and naming the sadistic bastards. There are links on the net on how to file a pro se lawsuit..
The poly abusers count on a person wanting to avoid publicity regarding their 'failed" polygraph, because in the publics eye, a person who fails the poly is a liar. It is a catch 22 for sure.
I am curious if the examination was video taped. Likely not.
Yes, I thought I was done with this crap also. I took a CI poly to get into my agency because I had been in the military. I thought it was stupid then, but I passed so I was just glad it was over. That one was actually pretty straightforward. We agreed on the questions and he went through them three times, unhooking all of the gizmos between each go around.
This time, after 18 years of loyal federal service and risking my life and being injured in the course of duty, I was told I needed to take a CI poly. I wasn't that worried, I had passed before. The first one I took was inconclusive and he said I had to go to WDC to get it done again. The second poly was the really abusive one. The blood pressure cuff was really tight and I was strapped to the chair, as usual, except this time the straps were never unhooked. I was called names, accused of lying and treason. I was appalled.
The first guy kept getting into sex topics, like cheating on my husband or any unusual sex practices, etc. None of these were an issue. He desperately wanted me to admit something. This went on for hours (about 3). The polygrapher left the room for about 20 minutes without unhooking anything, then two of them came back in and started in on me. They said I would be arrested and it would go better for me if I fessed up. I think I was in shock at this point.
I just couldn't believe this was actually happening and I desperately wanted to convince them that I am completely innocent. I should have figured out sooner, that nothing I could say would change their puny little minds. Once their all knowing needles give them the gospel they smell blood and lose all sense of morality (if they had any to begin with). I ultimately went for a third poly. We went through the questions once and he left the room. I unhooked all of the stuff and got up and looked at the file he had conveniently left. I knew I was being watched, but didn't care at this point. Sure enough, he came rushing back in and chastized me for unhooking things and looking at MY file. I told him I don't know how he sleeps at night and asked to leave. I knew there was no point in staying any longer.
I'm still working for the federal government, but poly guy number two almost ruined my life. I hate those guys with the intensity of a thousand burning suns. If they make me take another poly and they can fire me if I refuse, I plan to just answer the questions and leave. I'm not getting dragged into their sick little game again. I just can't believe that we put up with this in America. Unfortunately, one person who needs a pay check every two weeks can't do anything about it.
Oh of course there was no video tape. I would be on a beach in Hawaii if their was. They like to say that not video taping is for the subject's benefit, but I think we all really know who really benefits from no video tape. They can just do whatever they want and there is only the word of the lyer who failed the polygraph. Yes, it is all a very convenient situation for sadists who like to have power over people and abuse that power.
stoppolyabusenow
I didn't know that you were a female. Guess you couldn't have flattened them. However, that is in your favor in a federal lawsuit. I don't have to explain that one to you. My wife is in the process of filing a federal lawsuit, for gender and age discrimination and a couple of other things, against the corp. for which she works. I am hoping she gets fired then she will have another charge "whistleblower". If they fire you for filing a lawsuit, that is another charge you have against them. I think you have an actionable case.
The reason the first polygrapher was hammering on the outside sex issue he was probably looking for something extra for himself. He had no other reason to engage the subject. I am believing now that you passed and he labeled you a lyer for selfish reasons.
You know I thought that too. He just seemed to be getting off on the whole thing and I didn't think that I was even nervous until he started in with all of that. I could have flattened him and the other guy, but because I was strapped to the chair (essentially restrained) they would have seen me coming for them. I would have had to start unhooking stuff or ripping things apart and believe me it took all of the restraint I have not to do it. I really wanted to smash their stupid machine. I don't want to stoop to their level though because then I would just look like a violent crazy person. I'm innocent of any wrongdoing and I tried hard to maintain that posture.
I hope the poly examiners who read this are really proud of their profession.
Excellent site George.......Ive enjoyed your site since 2005 and have introduced it to too many to count.
I just wanted to comment as I had a fleeting idea pass through my mind tonight.
I was a sworn police officer and have also been subject to many many polygraph "exams" in the course of my hunt for the right job. On my first ever exam there were 3 exams given and ultimately I was told by the examiner I had "passed" and that he looked forward to working with me in the department in the future.....only for me to receive a disqualification letter weeks later. The reason listed "deception indicated" on several portions of my polygraph.
WHat was passing through my mind tonight though was a video Ive watched and made fellow officers,family and friends watch :http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865#
Professor James Duane and Virginia Beach Detective/Law School Student George Bruche explore the topic of the 5th amendment and how the public is polarized by the position that like a "failed" polygraph invoking your god given 5th amendment right to remain silent somehow confirms guilt.
Specifically though I like the portion where Det. George Bruche whom I have worked with discuss's how he asks suspects if they "want" the interaction/interview/interrogation taped or recorded.
He goes on to explain that regardless of the suspects response the rooms that these exams/interviews what have you take place in are not only rigged for audio but ALSO video. Once I thought about it I realized how deceptive this simple question is.
In the realm of polygraphy if you WERE to ask for recording you'de likely be challenged with "why".......are you afraid of something out of the ordinary or perhaps you might need a recording to defend yourself if you fail? DO you expect to fail sir/maam?
It just reinforces so much of the good work your site and writing does.
I can tell you I told 100% truth on my first exam and failed......on my second exam I lied to see if this would change the outcome and wah lah.....I passed....which I found amusing.
IN my first test the "failed" issue was whether or not I had ever PURCHASED marijuana. I have never in fact Purchased marijuana although I had in my youth smoked marijuana with friends who were already in possession of it. The examiner in the first test acted as if my denial of purchasing it was SO unbelievable that he wanted to do the test 2 more times....and as previously mentioned I left after the test....but not before we left the exam room together to the facilities break room where we had a 20+ minute discussion on how confident he was that I would soon be a co worker and brother in law enforcement with him with HIS department.
On my second poly with a separate agency I simply answered "yes" to purchasing for personal use and I "passed" the exam.
However in my career in law enforcement I have seen many abuses including working with BI's and polygraphers who have told me stories about how when a candidate or "examinee" enters the room they ask for their drivers license and physically retain custody of it throughout the test. They tell me they do this in order to verify the candidate is who they say they are but then withhold it to attempt to or in hopes of subliminally making the examinee feel like they are not free to leave or have been robbed in order to "break them down a bit". Once I mentioned how despicable I found this technique I was returned 24 hours later to uniformed patrol even though I was assigned to recruiting and BI work for 6 weeks to help with the back log of BI's that we needed to complete in order to fill seats for the upcoming academy.
A very good friend was assigned to fill my spot and this VERY SITE was mentioned multiple times to him during his tour in recruiting.
The permanent employees in recruiting mentioned how they felt this site was a nuisance and counterproductive to their mission.
Later on during a midnight shift we went into further discussion about our experiences with polygraphs,examiners,candidates ,equipment and our tours in BI. My fellow officer told me of instances where multiple examiners would leave the candidate in the exam room still "tied" to the machine (done by laptop) and would discuss how they would get a confession. He explained to me that in fact in our own agency the department/chief and even the examiners felt the poly was garbage.......what they did support was using it as a tool to get confessions. In fact he reported to me that they would pick an area where a BI had found inconsistent information and zone in on that in the poly. They would eventually get the candidate to believe that correcting the information given would "set them free" even though in fact by that point in the game changing information was considered a disqualifier. SO in fact theres really no way to tell how many liars stuck to their stories and made it into the uniform and how many truthful candidates were either forced to lie or were disqualified.
Anyway......from the Hampton Roads area of Virginia I wanted to send a warm hello and GOOD WORK form several police officers who LOVE your site and support you and your work 100%
PS. One of the worst polygraph offenders down here are Portsmouth,Virginia Police: http://portsmouthpd.org/index.php?s=recruiting
Several other local agencies are abandoning the junk science in lieu of stronger BI work
FailedJustice,
Thank you for your kind words about AntiPolygraph.org, and for helping to spread the word about polygraphy. If you're not already connected, you might want to get in touch with the Virginia Coalition of Police and Deputy Sheriffs (http://www.virginiacops.org/), which has taken a strong stance against polygraphy (http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Polygraph/Polygraph.htm).
I think that all jurists, including judges, should have to undergo 5-year polygraph examinations to determine reliability. If they fail, they are disbarred. I'll bet that idiot judge Sullivan would see things differently.
I love the suggestion of tearing off the wires. Then, :( I think one should throw the damn toy at the polygrapher.
Quote from: nopoly4me on Dec 06, 2007, 11:25 PMI hope the poly examiners who read this are really proud of their profession.
I'm sure that, as long as their jobs are secure, they don't really give a damn. Unfortunately the use of the polygraph toy appears to be in >:(creasing, not falling off.
Quote from: stoppolyabusenow on Dec 05, 2007, 05:40 PM I think that it is a gross injustice that the federal government is allowed to subject its loyal empolyees to polygraph harrassment and abuse. If the polygraph isn't going well, the session quickly turns into an adversarial interrogation. Then, the loyal emploee, is berated, accused of sexual deviancy and accused of treason. This can go on for hours and hours and the loyal employee, who desperately wants to pass, keeps putting up with the abuse for hours, hoping to convince the polygrapher that he/she is telling the truth. The fact of the matter is, once they have made up their minds, no amount of talking will change their minds. I was interrogated, berated, accused of treason by two men for hours, while strapped to a chair. This session became very personal and ended with me admitting to being raped. The polygraph perverts wanted to hear all of the details and just refused to believe that I wasn't a traiter.
I have been a loyal government employee for 21 years and I was treated worse than any criminal that I have ever interviewed. I just can't believe that it is ok to subject our own people to this type of abuse/torture. I still haven't passed the test and my career is ruined, all for nothing. It is all bullshit, but there is nothing I can do about it.
There was a lot of lying going on in that room, but all of it was coming from the polygraphers. I find it ironic that I was being berated for being a liar, when I was telling the truth, and the polygraphers lied to me throughout the process. It's just rediculous. The emperor has no clothes. The government wraps itself in the cloak of ploygraph security, but their is no cloak. They don't catch any one, except for getting people to admit they smoked pot 20 years ago. They certainly didn't catch Proutty. If we had been spending more money on BIs, instead of contracting those out and relying on the stupid polygraph, we would be much more secure.
This has essentially >:( been my experience with the polygraph, too, at two federal agencies.
Unfortunately, as I've learned from actual experience, the BI process can be flawed as well.