If one has a DoD clearance with the investigation done by DSS (OPM now), and applies for a job with an intel agency but fails the poly for supposed reasons that would negate the DoD clearance (even if not true, but we know how these polys work), would that in fact dismiss the DoD clearance as well?
Failure of a screening exam in connection with an application with another DOD agency is not grounds for revocation or suspension of a DOD security clearance. What generally happens is, applicant is non-selected for the position sought; your current agency's security of CI office may or may not be informed of your poly results; if so, the security office/CI office may or may not open a CI investigation surrounding your failed poly. Subsequent actions depend upon that outcome and your agency's policy. If your agency has a polygraph program, you may be asked to retake the exam by your own agency. It becomes further complicated if you were given a "full-scope" poly, passed the CI portion, but failed the suitability portion. Some agencies have no suitability poly requirement, only CI portion. Some agencies have no poly requirement for many or most positions. And finally, it is somewhat surprising that you have not been offered a retest, most (not all) DOD components attempt to resolve the exam.
Can someone explain exactly what the suitability portion of exams is? Is it possible to "pass" all the questions but still be considered unsuitable?
Some exams consist of two parts; CI-scope (espionage, sabotage, terrorism, etc); and suitability, which includes involvement with illegal drugs in the past five years, falsifying one's SF 86, and having committed serious crimes. One could pass one portion and fail the other.
Quote from: quickfix on Apr 03, 2006, 09:59 PMFailure of a screening exam in connection with an application with another DOD agency is not grounds for revocation or suspension of a DOD security clearance. What generally happens is, applicant is non-selected for the position sought; your current agency's security of CI office may or may not be informed of your poly results; if so, the security office/CI office may or may not open a CI investigation surrounding your failed poly. Subsequent actions depend upon that outcome and your agency's policy. If your agency has a polygraph program, you may be asked to retake the exam by your own agency. It becomes further complicated if you were given a "full-scope" poly, passed the CI portion, but failed the suitability portion. Some agencies have no suitability poly requirement, only CI portion. Some agencies have no poly requirement for many or most positions. And finally, it is somewhat surprising that you have not been offered a retest, most (not all) DOD components attempt to resolve the exam.
Since I work for a contractor, I have a DoD clearance that did not require a poly and I also had a high level clearance with an intel agency because I provided some support to them. I have not taken the poly before but the intel agency notified me and said they found something in an application that I filled out several years for another agency that conflicts with what I said on their SF86. They asked me to take a poly to confirm that the old paperwork was an error and that I had never done what they said. I told them I would take the poly and they will let me know when. However, I no longer need that clearance because I am no longer providing support to that agency. That being said, if I just get debriefed off the contract and they take away that clearance, I can continue to work for my DoD clients. Will the intel agency cause a problem with DoD and let them know the situation if I do not take the poly and just turn away from the situation (since I will not be supporting in the future anyway)? Can they cause a problem or are the intel and DoD communities to separate entities?
First, it sounds like a poly is being asked of you to resolve an SF86 conflict, which is part of the suitability sub-test. Second, you're confusing clearance and access. Holding a TS clearance requires no poly (with a couple of exceptions not relevant to contractors). Access to specifically-designated programs, such as NSANet, PKI, etc, does require the poly. If you decline/don't pass the poly, you are denied access, which is separate from your clearance. However, since your poly is now a matter of record, it could affect you sometime in the future, particularly if the terms of your contractor position change, such as requiring access to perform your duties. It might affect your position if the other agency notifies your parent agency, as I outlined in my earlier post.
Quote from: quickfix on Apr 03, 2006, 11:37 PMFirst, it sounds like a poly is being asked of you to resolve an SF86 conflict, which is part of the suitability sub-test. Second, you're confusing clearance and access. Holding a TS clearance requires no poly (with a couple of exceptions not relevant to contractors). Access to specifically-designated programs, such as NSANet, PKI, etc, does require the poly. If you decline/don't pass the poly, you are denied access, which is separate from your clearance. However, since your poly is now a matter of record, it could affect you sometime in the future, particularly if the terms of your contractor position change, such as requiring access to perform your duties. It might affect your position if the other agency notifies your parent agency, as I outlined in my earlier post.
Thank you for the very informative posts. I have the option to not take the poly but in an effort to show i am not hiding guilt, I told them I would take it. However, since I am not currently supporting that agency, and will not be in the future, and as a matter of fact will be relocating geographically, if I have my security department contact them and tell them I am going to be debriefed from their contract because I am not supporting anymore, and don't need that special access, will they close the issue or will they send it over to my DoD "clearance holders" (for lack of a better term)? I don't want to attract attention but I also don't want to go through the whole poly process since I do not need that special access from that particular agency.
I can only offer you an educated guess that the matter will be closed and the other agency will not notify your security office ("clearance holder"); just one word of caution, all federally conducted poly results can be obtained by any DOD poly program, so you are already in the system as having an unresolved poly on file. When your next clearance update is due, it may come up as an issue.
Quote from: quickfix on Apr 04, 2006, 12:00 AMI can only offer you an educated guess that the matter will be closed and the other agency will not notify your security office ("clearance holder"); just one word of caution, all federally conducted poly results can be obtained by any DOD poly program, so you are already in the system as having an unresolved poly on file. When your next clearance update is due, it may come up as an issue.
Thanks for the advice. After I agreed to the poly, the gentleman said he was going to write up the report and kick it up to management so they could make the official decision on whether or not it is needed. I'm hoping that, given the right timing, I can be debriefed before it is logged as me needing a poly. Even so, if i have to take on e in the future, that is fine, I just don't want to deal with it now, given all the nightmare stories out there, if I don't have to.
Thanks.
John_Doe_Forever,
It depends on what you admitted to; I do not believe
that DoD/DSS look at the actual poly charts, for good
reason, but agencies, such as, CIA and NSA may look
at each others charts. You will have to disclose
the failed poly/denial, on your SF86, so it may impact
the clearance process at other Intel agencies.
Certainly, this situation can't be helpful. Did you
check out this site, before taking your poly; if so, you
may have chosen not to take the poly. The CIA would
not clear me, until I passed my CI poly at NSA...
John_Doe_Forever,
I have heard that DoD/DSS thinks the poly is
nonsense, and if you only refused to take one, then
that shouldn't matter - good choice, if you don't need
one...
QUICKFIX:
If I may butt in here--you seem to have some solid information regarding the ramifications of an "unsuitable" determination. Perhaps you can indulge me here.
I was deemed unsuitable by CIA last year--with the caveat that I could affirm that I was never denied a security clearance and could reapply in a year.
I now have an opporunity at State that would require a TS clearance, no poly. Will the State security people have access/attempt to get access to my CIA charts/folder?
Wallerstein,
Since you were never denied, I wouldn't think it would
be an issue, since the SF86 only asks about denials
(I believe). I was put into clearance reinstatement
"limbo", by the NSA pricks, but it didn't cause a problem
with the CIA, or DoD...
NSAreject,
thanks. The SF-86 asks "have you ever been investigated by the federal government?"
I have, but I have not been denied a clearance. I have to put "yes" and for clearance granted put "N/A." This I hope will not raise too many red flags. Plus I have been told that the National Agency Check (or NAC) will register by unsuitable ding at CIA.
btw, did you see the Atlantic Monthly's article on NSA? Pretty good.
Wallerstein,
All I can say, is be TOTALLY truthful on your SF86, and
if you are, then it usually takes something major to
cause a problem (the DoD has always been really fair
with me, but I have always been totally truthful). No
I didn't see the NSA article, but having worked there
for many years, a lot of it is pretty mundane...
As is my intention. I was totally truthful with CIA and would/will be with any future government agency.
Check out the article. It's worth the read especially for someone who used to work there. Here's a snippet:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200604/nsa-surveillance
Wallerstein:
I would not be concerned with State Dept asking for another agency's poly charts. It's virtually unheard of. In 20+ years in the DOD poly community, I've never had interaction with State on poly matters of personnel of my agency. Secondly, merely holding a TS clearance requires no poly, with the exception of a couple of agencies, including NSA and CIA. Nomination for access to specifically designated special access programs does require successful completion of a CI-scope poly, where regulations so mandate. Further, the SF86 requires no disclosure of a previous poly. Where it asks whether you have ever been investigated for a clearance, the correct answer is yes if you have ever held a clearance or been put in for one; it has nothing to do with polygraph. The information contained in Item #26 of the form covers which agency conducted the check, when, and what level of clearance you were granted. Finally, be aware that a DOD poly (the fact that one was conducted, not the charts) entered into the DCII may be accessed by other federal investigative agencies, including, I would think, State. If so, it may or may not be an issue with their security folks. Hope this has been helpful.
Quickfix,
So State will never request the poly charts, but the fact that I was unsuitable at CIA (not DoD) would register on the DCII or NAC could cause problems?
For question 26 I have to put yes. For clearance received I should put N/A right?
Thanks.
Item 26, the answer is yes, the next box you put the code indicated for the agency that conducted your BI/SBI in connection with your clearance nominated (the codes are right above the box, DOD would be "1"), and the last box for type of clearance granted, you would enter "0" for clearance not required if never granted a clearance, or the appropriate code for whatever level you were last granted. There are also instructions above the boxes for what to enter if you don't recall or if you're not sure.
Unless State Dept has their own poly program, which I doubt, there would be no need for requesting your charts, as they would need the polygraph software to download and open them in the poly program. Even if they had a poly program, it is very unusual for a poly program to share charts with another program; would have to be something very significant for that to happen, almost non-existant in the pre-employment/screening world. Finally the DCII entries on poly only indicate that a poly was conducted, when, and whether it was favorable/unfavorable.
Regards
I was polygraphed (I'm a contractor) by a couple of assholes at an intel agency. Inconclusive both times; then put in adjudication limbo for a year or so.
Eventually the contact at the intel agency asked for somebody else to be put on the contract since my clearance was taking too long.
I was never denied; simply withdrawn from processing. I already held a DoD TS.
I'm assuming I answer "Yes I've been investigated" and put DoD and the date my TS was granted when it's time to renew, correct? No need to advertise my run-in with the box and disdain for those who worship it.
Will this come up during a DoD clearance renewal?
Correct; TS and date of last clearance; there is no provision on the form to refer to any poly. During your next PR, IF they check the DCII, they would see a poly for an unresolved exam, nothing more; I don't think it would be an issue just for a PR.
P.S. I might have been one of those assholes. I'm a DOD examiner. I almost fell out of my chair laughing, just think, an asshole examiner helping an examinee!!! What's this world coming too?!? Anyway, no offense taken, I've been called far worse, even by my own kind!
Regards
Quickfix,
Your honesty and helpfulness are appreciated. You say poly charts will not be shared--will CIA share any information with State about me garnered during poly--is this a matter of course?
My best guess is no, unless State inquires as part of any application for an upgraded clearance, i.e. from TS to TS/SCI in connection with a new job or position. I can't guarantee that, as I have not personally dealt with State, but it's been my experience in some 30 years of DOD service involving clearances, adjudications, and poly that your situation is not a big deal. Good luck in your endeavors.
So will a CIA denial cause a flag on a DoD NAC check? I was denied by the agency last year and have my re-investigation for my DoD secret due in 6 months. Should I worry?
Shouldn't be a problem; a NAC consists of checking with federal law enforcement databases for any outstanding warrants, arrest records, convictions, etc. Going from Secret to TS is a more comprehensive process.
Quote from: Wallerstein on Apr 04, 2006, 05:11 PMAs is my intention. I was totally truthful with CIA and would/will be with any future government agency.
Check out the article. It's worth the read especially for someone who used to work there. Here's a snippet:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200604/nsa-surveillance
This article, "Big Brother Is Listening" by James Bamford, is indeed a worthwhile read for anyone concerned with national security policy. For those who are not
Atlantic Monthly subscribers, the full text is available here:
http://homepage.mac.com/imfalse/chapel_annex/big_brother_listening.html
So now that we know the answer for CIA vs DoD...what would be the impact on a CIA lifestyle poly failure for someone holding a DIA TS SCI? I'm of course going to appeal since I really have no clue as to why I have not passed and am waiting for my statement of reasons.
I don't need the Lifestyle for my current position, but I want to have some reassurance that most likely I will not lose my current SCI access. Any one have any experience in this? Thanks.
stupid failed poly,
While I don't have firsthand knowledge, considering that DoD is DIA's parent agency, one would expect the general practice to be similar. On the other hand, it has been recently reported that DIA is greatly expanding (https://antipolygraph.org/blog/?p=201) its polygraph program, and it's conceivable that they've decided (against all evidence and reason) to put greater credence in polygraph chart readings.
ok, so I got my letter back stating why I failed. Apparently it was due to suitability. I had a run in with something totally STUPID that looked like shoplifting recently, which was just a comedy/tragedy of bad decisions on my part. I have never done anything like this in my life, but I was totally truthful about it during the interview after the poly (happend after I took the poly and even though I wasn't strapped in, again I was totally candid).
So what should I do? I mean I don't really know if I can appeal, because I was completely candid and the information that caused my denial is truth. At the same time, I have a concern for losing my SCI access for something this dumb. But because I wasn't denied for anything CI related, am I better off just letting the judgment stand (paperwork said I could reapply in a year) in hopes that DIA sees that I am no threat to their CI information? I think I have maybe 2 weeks left before I have to submit my appeal.
Stupid Failed Poly,
What made you initially think you failed the poly? In your first post, you seemed to have known that you had already failed. Also, how long after your poly did it take to receive the letter stating why you failed?
Thanks!
Initially I was going based off what the agent that did my poly was saying. Turns out he was just applying scare tactics to try to get me to divulge any other information. In actuality, I didn't fail because of anything he was hinting at. After my security office let me know that I failed, it took about a month to get my letter.
In the meanwhile, I'm still trying to figure out what my best course of action is.
Well here we are, 5 months from my last post and I still have a job. So as of yet, my "failed" poly has not effected my position at DIA as a contractor. Apparently DIA has hired more poly testers and are going through their backfill of people w/o CI polys. So I received a call today that tomorrow I need to go in and take a CI poly. As there has been no adverse effects yet, I don't know what will happen if I go in to take the test and find out that I've "failed" a Lifestyle, if they'll even bother letting me take their CI. Granted, I "passed" the CI portion of the Lifestyle. Anybody with any knowledge on this?