Hello Everybody... How y'all doing? :D
An important development following my original post at
https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=2917.msg20384#msg20384
It's been a few days since I posted... but in my good faith effort to faithfully share my experience accurately, the good folks at the FBI called and informed me that I did NOT fail my Polygraph test as I presupposed when I first made my original post... and courteously offered me a 2nd Polygraph test.
The new polygrapher sounded like a super nice guy (actually the first polygrapher equally sounded nice until he snapped at me during the examination)...
We both made references to the information found on polygraphs throughout the internet and I basically "dumped" on him all my bottled up feelings in the last few weeks explaining to him how, after it took me over 4 years to get off my butt and "Do the Right thing for my country", I received a huge slap in the face and made to feel like a criminal when I was telling the TRUTH... I also continued by saying something like "no one who is telling the truth should have to be afraid" as Johnn the Great so masterfully put it... and that "the polygraph is nothing short of junk science" (to which he totally disagreed and offered to show me proof to the contrary)...
I explained to him that I am a highly sensitive man and that I am petrified of embarrassing myself again in a 2nd exam (I actually am so embarrassed that I did not tell anyone except one of my very close family members about the first exam)...
The fact remains that, to date, I still cannot figure out why I had such severe emotional and physiological reaction to the control question and have no reason to believe that this time will be any different for me....
I am going to present another "psychological theory"... I am NOT a psychology expert and this is NOT a scientific theory... It may be TOTALLY wrong!... so, I do NOT want to be judged... made fun of, nor will I tolerate ad hominem attacks....
Unless someone has the intellectual competence and the "good heart" to understand carefully the delicate nuance of this theory and my entire post, please remain quiet and go start your own post!...
When I lived in the in the 3rd world, I, like MANY OTHERS, was always petrified when someone of authority had ANY question even if I or my family did NOTHING wrong and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic of the question... Of course, there were no polygraphs but in regular conversations, if someone of authority asked me if I knew anything about someone who did something bad... and even if I knew nothing about that person, I immediately "looked" guilty... and I became a nervous wreck hoping that he will not get me or my family involved just because... This may be very hard to understand for most of you good folks who did not experience the 3rd world... but please.. at least try!...
The closest thing to an "American" experience is when any of you hears the alarm system go off next door ... As a "good Samaritan", you call 911 and, "without wanting to get involved" you just want to let the cops know that the "alarm next door" went off... To that , the cop responds "OK, thank you... what's your name?"... and you say "listen...I do not want to get involved... I just wanted to be helpful"... and then he, having your phone record from 911, would respond "OK... you are so and so...and you live on so and so, right?"... It is HIS right to ask that!... but if you were like me, you would feel very nervous, OFFENDED (do not ask me why nor knock me down), and hope that the cop doesn't think you have anything to do with the alarm being set off and investigate you... and pray that they do not involve you.... This is ALL irrational... but that's how I ACTUALLY would feel!...
Although unrelated, I felt the same way AS SOON as the relevant question was asked!...
My point is that even if I get a slightest hint of negative energy (and I am VERY smart and sensitive to detect it) for being questioned about something bad, I get IRRATIONALLY petrified... I am my worst enemy in that sense!... It does NOT mean that I am not telling the TRUTH!...
So for me, if the polygraph examination will be conducted in a manner similar to the first test (I am not sure how it could be different), I see no reason why I should be "calm and collected" when he asks the relevant question
All in all, he was an awesome listener and a "best friend" material... and he said that "now that you vented... you should really feel better"... and continued by saying that I have a choice to take the Polygraph exam again.... and he really sounded sincerely concerned... He didn't for a minute make me feel that he had ANY suspicion that I am a criminal... so I felt very good at the end of the conversation even though my whole body was shaking from the memory of the first experience and the possibility of a repeat experience...
I asked if I can get back to him and he sincerely obliged... even courteously offering me his own cell phone number to reach him any time...
On the one hand, I am COMFORTED that I will be in good hands with him but, on the other hand, I am petrified that I will go and just embarrass myself a 2nd time... I know this time I will NOT be "happy go lucky" as I was the first time on my way to the polygraph test...
Also, I am not sure how to deal with my bitterness and utter disappointment towards the polygraph!... I know that he meant well when he said that he will show me proof that the polygraph is not junk science..... I MUST keep an open mind and I definitely WILL... but I am very highly intelligent... and the simplest proof of all that the polygraph does NOT give the FBI the TRUTH all the time is that I got FALSE positive even though I KNOW beyond ANY doubt that was telling the Truth!....
I have read through MANY of the "yo buddy... go get the 2nd test since it is offered"... "no, be careful, don't go as the FBI is just playing a game so they can look fair"... I do NOT need such unsupported and inflammatory advice... I can read it elsewhere on this good board!... I sincerely need valid "cause-effect", root cause, and well thought out, accurate and critical analysis that is conducive to my post and helpful to me in making my critical decision.
Again this is NOT an invitation for the drunk dogs of society to come howling and babbling senselessly... nor is it a license for anyone to knock down the USA and its fine agencies INCLUDING the FBI!...
By the way, I sincerely bow my hat to Johnn and Polyfool who astutely indicated that my test would be INCONCLUSVE.... Love you friends!...
So, I thank and invite Johnn, EOSJupiter, George, polyfool detector1012000, Sargeant1107, Twoblock and even quickfix (but no unnecessary barbs, please)... and everyone else like them to come forward with accurate, verifiable and well thought out analysis, comments and advice....
Thank you all!...
Perplexed,
During my entire polygraph the examiner was very nice and I really thought he was trying to help me out. He never yelled or confronted me. I thought things were great until I got my rejection letter!! Don't believe them they are horrible human beings, who make a living LYING on a regular basis.
Hey perplexed. I read your initial post with great interest.
You already know the story. The polygraph is bunk, junk science. Most people here will tell you that 2nd/3rd polygraphs with the FBI are useless, and no one ever passes them etc etc. Don't worry about that.
You actually don't need to worry about much. You need to be confident and self-assured in your responses. You know you're not a terrorist (quite the contrary - a patriot); nor a drug dealer or user. The bottom line is you can pass a poly two ways: 1) Luck, or 2) Proactively.
It's up to you to decide. It's possible that now, having taken the polygraph and being familiar w/ the format & questioning, you can waltz back in there and pass it with flying colors. Or, you may want to do something to ENSURE you pass - namely, countermeasures.
Whatever you decide, choose carefully and go with it 100%. It's a shame that a qualified Arabic speaker like you (or George, for that matter), would miss out on an opportunity to serve because a person operating a flawed machine purports to read your mind. But that's the way it is.
Antrella
Such a creative name!... Does it mean something?
Thank you for your warm and highly insightful response!...
Although I really need to hear other advice from other "good people", my first instinct WAS to walk tall... go to the 2nd Polygraph test with confidence... and just be myself the way I went the very first time... and simply TELL THE TRUTH!...
And you are right on the money!..... It is really sad that I ONLY have 2 options: 1. Luck 2. Countermeasures.
Countermeasures seem to be "oh so easy!" for someone with my intellect and my nervous nature (just be nervous and exxagerate my emotions ALL the time)!... It's just I do NOT have it in me to "win" unfairly!... This is NOT about winning a game... It is about deep rooted Honor and Having that ONE chance of UNSELFISHLESSLY serving my Country (I know being an Arabic translator is NOT being a soldier... but in my mind it is the ONLY chance I will ever have... since I loathe politics and corruption and have NO ambitions other than live a good, stress free, happy go lucky life which I already have!)... and most importantly, for ME, it is about the FBI knowing the TRUTH about me from me NOT from a dumb ass Polygraph!...
As for Luck... Well Luck in "stressful" situations like these, is my enemy... On top of that, I AM my worst enemy as I get so worried about screwing up that I screw up!.... I know I WILL have an INVOLUNTARY reaction to the relevant question!...
My hope is that the FBI are much SMARTER than to solely rely on "junk science"... The FBI is the SMARTEST intelligence agency in the ENTIRE world (well... perhaps as good or close second to Scotland Yard)... I am PERPLEXED by how they rely on the polygraph to find the truth!....
My other issue is my childish dilemma of "They hurt my feelings!"... For the last few weeks, I accepted what I could not control... I accepted the fact that I might have failed... and just moved on with my life... putting the nightmare encounter all behind me... I came to terms with the fact that I tried to do something good for my country... but it just wasn't meant to be...
Now... I am really no longer as EXCITED about that romantic notion of doing what is RIGHT!... nor am I as motivated to do something unselfish just like our boys and girls are doing every day in Afghanistan and Iraq, with thousands ending up living blind or without limbs or worse losing their lives so that the rest of us may have life and have it more abundantly!...
Correct me if I misunderstood... but I did not know that George spoke Arabic... Do you George? In any case, THANK you for your helpful site... and although I may disagree with some of your points of view, you are a good man!...
God bless America!...
Perplexed,
I have watched your thread unfold and I have a great amount of admiration for your ability to analyze and keep a perspective that a lesser intellect would have probably failed on by now. If you go to the 2nd polygraph with the FBI, then go in ready, honest and knowlegeable. Anything less would tarnish the honor and courage you undoubtably have. But remember that even if they (DI) you, you have what it takes in any endeavor that you pursue. And it will be FBI's loss. Myself I wouldn't work for any organization that makes you crawl and prove your honest via interrogation. Good luck in any decision you make
Regards ... !!!!
perplexed,
Yes, I speak Arabic, but not with native fluency. You can read more about my background and polygraph experience here (http://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-003.shtml).
Here are some thoughts to keep in mind:
1) You didn't mention whether you told the new polygrapher that you have posted on AntiPolygraph.org under the screen name "perplexed." If you didn't, you should be aware that the FBI polygraph unit is likely well aware of who you are.
2) People who don't believe in polygraphy are a threat to polygraphers. Too often, polygraphers perceive non-believers as being insubordinate (if not subversive), unpatriotic, and certainly not to be trusted. You have seen how the NSA polygraph unit ultimately retaliated against Onesimus (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=2954.msg20638#msg20638), who, like you, was candid about his views regarding polygraphy.
3) Even if the FBI were to offer you a job, are you sure you want to take it? I think you may have been looking at the FBI through rose-colored glasses. Look at the way they've treated you thus far. Is that the kind of employer you want to work for? You might also consider the recent experience of former FBI contract linguist Sibel Edmonds (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=2149.msg15316#msg15316).
4) Right now, all you have in your permanent FBI HQ is an inconclusive polygraph result. If you agree to a "re-test," you risk having a "failed" polygraph on your record, or, even worse, an accusation of having used countermeasures. You could minimize your losses by withdrawing your application now. If I were in your shoes, I would probably choose this option.
5) If you do agree to a "re-test," I would suggest not using countermeasures. By posting here, you've left yourself little choice but to adopt the "complete honesty" approach outlined in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf). I think this is your preferred option, in any event. But be aware that your decision not to use countermeasures provides no guarantee that you won't be falsely accused of countermeasure use, just as telling the truth provides no guarantee that you won't be accused of deception.
EOSJupiter:
Thanks a lot my friend... I guess I need good luck... :)
I knew that the decision will not be easy after having been re-encouraged by my friendly conversation with the good FBI polygrapher... but I did not think it would be THIS hard... especially in light of the "hair raising" thoughts from George... which will take me a long time to digest!.... Lucky for me, I have more "rose-colored glasses" faith in the FBI than he does... and I hope that they will live up to the high regard I place in them...
Hey buddy... what does "DI you" mean exactly?
Quote from: George W. Maschke on Mar 16, 2006, 03:45 AM
....
5) If you do agree to a "re-test," I would suggest not using countermeasures. By posting here, you've left yourself little choice but to adopt the "complete honesty" approach outlined in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf). I think this is your preferred option, in any event. But be aware that your decision not to use countermeasures provides no guarantee that you won't be falsely accused of countermeasure use, just as telling the truth provides no guarantee that you won't be accused of deception.
George - I'm curious why you counsel against the use of countermeasures - is it because his identity is probably known to the polygraphers and you assume he'll be under extra scrutiny, or for some other reason?
Perplexed - I believe (DI) is shorthand for "deception indicated," which is polygrapher parlance for "lying" (meaning disqualification).
antrella,
By posting enough detail that he could be identified, "perplexed" left himself little choice but to adopt the "complete honesty" approach.
But more generally, I think that nowadays, many polygraphers are assuming that by the time an applicant for employment reports for a "re-test," he/she will have researched polygraphy. The returning examinee who denies having done so is likely to be disbelieved. I also suspect that an examinee reporting for a "re-test" is at increased risk of being accused of countermeasure use whether or not he/she actually employs them. Thus, I think the better option in such situations is the "complete honesty" approach.
Thank you George for your thought-provoking ideas... I may disagree with you on a few points, but that's the
TRUE American Spirit. God bless America!... We are both entitled to disagree, yet still be able to communicate honestly and openly without resentment or fear of expression. Here are my responses/requests for clarification:
Quote from: George W. Maschke on Mar 16, 2006, 03:45 AMYou didn't mention whether you told the new polygrapher that you have posted on AntiPolygraph.org under the screen name "perplexed." If you didn't, you should be aware that the FBI polygraph unit is likely well aware of who you are. .
No... I did not... but, most importantly, he did
not ask!... I would hope that the good FBI are aware of who I am since they have my file, they called ME, and they are doing a background investigation on me as I authorized them to do... If you meant that they are aware that I reached out and posted on the internet in good faith to seek reliable answers and expand my circle of knowledge, so be it!... Yes, I post on the internet like MILLIONS of good Americans do every day!... I happen to like the internet for the verifiable facts I can obtain... Your site is helpful to me and I thank you...
Even though I may disagree with some of your analysis... that's how one keeps an open mind and critically analyzes a topic considering various angles!... For Heaven's sake, I even disagree with Sean Hannity sometimes!....
Quote
Even if the FBI were to offer you a job, are you sure you want to take it? I think you may have been looking at the FBI through rose-colored glasses. Look at the way they've treated you thus far. Is that the kind of employer you want to work for?
To a certain extent, I am still looking at the FBI through rose-colored glasses. It is a romantic notion for me to get a chance to be useful to my country!... Of course, the UNNECESSARY slap in the face should have NEVER taken place, but, with the exception of the 1st polygrapher snapping at me (and he probably had no choice but to do so), the FBI has been a pleasant experience to me... I simply presupposed that I failed and had a NORMAL reaction to it... but I am a positive person and would like to keep my life stress free...
QuoteRight now, all you have in your permanent FBI HQ is an inconclusive polygraph result. If you agree to a "re-test," you risk having a "failed" polygraph on your record, or, even worse, an accusation of having used countermeasures. You could minimize your losses by withdrawing your application now. If I were in your shoes, I would probably choose this option.
While this may be a remote possibility, I am not sure it is a probability... The good agent was sensitive enough to respectfully give me the option of not taking the test, if I so choose, assuring me that no further investigation will follow. PERIOD!... Having said that, I still much prefer a ONE scope, National Security focused, and ACCURATE investigation of my background, NOT to randomly invade my constitutionally protected privacy and personal life, but rather to determine the TRUTH instead of relying on a "faulty" Polygraph which did NO justice to the Truth in my case!... Even though I received an inconclusive result, it is a
CONCLUSIVE evidence to me that the polygraph doe
not work 100% accurately 100% of the time since I
WAS telling he TRUTH!...
QuoteIf you do agree to a "re-test," I would suggest not using countermeasures. By posting here, you've left yourself little choice but to adopt the "complete honesty" approach outlined in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf). I think this is your preferred option, in any event.
Yup... That is my preferred option
IF I choose to re-take the test...
QuoteBut be aware that your decision not to use countermeasures provides no guarantee that you won't be falsely accused of countermeasure use, just as telling the truth provides no guarantee that you won't be accused of deception.
This is where you and I
respectfully disagree... I am not big on a conspiracy theories... I have faith in the FBI... As Americans, we are all confronted with a NEW world order after 9/11 whereby the FBI have to utilize whatever they can to protect us from harms way and I thank them for that!... However, unnecessarily scaring away good, patriotic Americans like me though, is of NO help to our country...
Of course, as a sensitive man and a true patriot who has great love for the U.S., I feel enormous need to be treated with HONOR and APPRECIATION... NOT make me "sweat it" or "crawl" because of a
faulty polygraph...
All in all, on
MY own road less traveled,
I will soon be reaching a fork in the road... So, either
1. I will be accepted and will be helpful to the U.S. or
2. I will not accepted and my good life will continues as is...
I am at peace with either possibility... I just felt uneasy sitting on my ass doing nothing to help out in the last 5 years when I knew I could...
Now, my
conscience is clear, I took initiative... and what is meant to be... will be!...
I say take the test again. If you pass, you get to be in the FBI. That is not a bad thing. Not everything the FBI does is good, but so it goes with every job. If you dont pass, no harm done for most applicants who will return to some private sector job somewhere like I did. Unless you have some other career path that will involve people needing your FBI file, I doubt it will affect anything.
I told dozens of people about my poly result. There is no embarrasment. It is the test that is wrong, not me.
You have placed all of your cards on the table with the FBI, I think you will find them more sympathetic than you might imagine on your re-test.
I think it was a bit different with George. He was in the intelligence business and the FBI result disrupted his career. For folks like me, while I was upset, I never had a career trashed by it, I simply didnt get to start one.
Quote from: Bill Crider on Mar 16, 2006, 01:20 PMIt is the test that is wrong, not me.
Oh my God!... How true!... a very powerful and
to the point statement of fact that is overflowing with
Eloquent Simplicity!... I thank you Bill... This is the level of POSITIVE, non-inflammatory and factual input I am seeking!... What can be more simple than
"It is the test that is wrong, not me." Duh!...QuoteI say take the test again. If you pass, you get to be in the FBI. That is not a bad thing. Not everything the FBI does is good, but so it goes with every job. If you dont pass, no harm done
No, it is not a bad thing... and from the feeling I get from dealing with the FBI, they seem to be "good people"...
The only thing that concerns me, is what I hear about the
FBI record of the "FAULTY" polygraph results IF I don't pass the 2nd time...
Such record, if it does exist, is like being
GUILTY until proven innocent which is so NON American and a sad reminder of life in the 3rd World...
Actually, it is worse... It is
GUILTY based on NO valid evidence whatsoever... which is oh! so
totally NON American and entirely devoid of any Justice!... I seriously doubt that such "dubious" record exists!...
QuoteYou have placed all of your cards on the table with the FBI, I think you will find them more sympathetic than you might imagine on your re-test.
I think so, Bill... Thanks again!...
Dear Perplexed,
Get ready for a rude awakening. The system does not care about false positives. As far as they are concerned "this is the cost of doing business."
It is a numbers game. Alot of applicants for a few positions. Anyone who "fails" is an acceptable casualty in the "war against terror." Sad but true.
Those people who think that they have "highly needed skills" which will exempt themselves from the polygraph witchhunt will be rudely awakened to the hard facts.
Regards.
Perplexed;
I agree with Bill Crider; take advantage and accept a re-test; if you decline, you'll kick yourself down the road later for not having availed yourself of the opportunity. You'll regret not knowing what "might have been". You also have nothing to lose, since no current job is depending on this. It sounds like your re-test will be assigned to a more senior, experienced examiner. I also recommend the "honesty" approach. If you employ countermeasures and get caught, you will never know if you would have passed it without them. You will also not have a valid defense that "polygraph doesn't work", since CMs will automatically invalidate the test results. If you don't employ CMs, a "false positive" argument would be more credible. If you have any doubt as to the intent of the counterintelligence questions, require the examiner to clarify, and if necessary, reword them to your comfort level. They should do that provided it does not change the scope of what they are required to verify.
Honest advice from a federal examiner.
Quote from: quickfix on Mar 16, 2006, 07:15 PMPerplexed;
I agree with Bill Crider; take advantage and accept a re-test; if you decline, you'll kick yourself down the road later for not having availed yourself of the opportunity. You'll regret not knowing what "might have been". You also have nothing to lose, since no current job is depending on this.
Thank you, my friend... This is where I am leaning to... but I am still dealing with the uneasy reminder that this is really too MUCH heartache for a 2nd class contract employee status with no benefits, etc...
QuoteIt sounds like your re-test will be assigned to a more senior, experienced examiner.
Yeah... I think so...
QuoteI also recommend the "honesty" approach. If you employ countermeasures and get caught, you will never know if you would have passed it without them. You will also not have a valid defense that "polygraph doesn't work", since CMs will automatically invalidate the test results. If you don't employ CMs, a "false positive" argument would be more credible.
I already addressed that in my posts... I really do not have it in me to do CMs...
QuoteIf you have any doubt as to the intent of the counterintelligence questions, require the examiner to clarify, and if necessary, reword them to your comfort level. They should do that provided it does not change the scope of what they are required to verify.
I NEVER had any doubt whatsoever as to the intent of the question... The question itself is just too CREEPY for me!... I do NOT know why!... that's the BIGGEST problem when KNOW I am telling the truth and STILL get false positive. As Bill so eloquently put it "It is the test that is wrong, not me."
However, you helpful advice to reword the question to my comfort level is something to consider... as if it were made very short, I MAY have a lesser reaction to it... but again it's putting unnecessary pressure on me with NO guarantee that I will not get a FALSE positive.
QuoteHonest advice from a federal examiner.
Thanks again for the advice, my friend... I am not sure if you are at liberty to say... but are you an FBI examiner somewhere in the US?
Dept of Defense, not FBI.
Good Luck to you.
perplexed,
One need not be from a third world country to understand your feelings when someone in a position of authority inquires about a threatening topic to which you have absolutely no connection. It's just the way your mind works and I assure you that you are not alone and there is nothing wrong with you. Simply put, you're a thinker--be proud of it. When I was questioned on national security during my first poly, I do remember thinking how horrible it would be to be accused of being disloyal to my country while realizing that these were questions the FBI meant business about. Even though I thought all the questions were important, I knew for a fact that the national security questions were especially significant. I have no reason to be threatend by them--I am an American born citizen loyal to my country, but I was perceptive enough to know they were different from the rest even without knowing anything about the poly.
You find yourself in a very difficult position. Personally, if I was in your shoes, knowing what you know, I would take my INC and run. First, you already know that polygraphs don't work and you don't believe in them. Fear and the belief that polys work are necessary elements in the process. You've educated yourself, so the option of being fooled into passing is out for you. The so-called test will be different for you now.
Secondly, you've already mentioned to your examiner that you've read things on the internet about polys. Though I commend and respect you for having the guts to let the examiner have it on the phone, telling him that you've researched the poly online was a mistake. I fear that even if you pass without countermeasure use, you will be accused of such. Examiners are very paranoid about this site and yours may question that research, even though he may not have acted like it on the phone. Remember, no matter how nice examiners may seem, they can make some pretty harsh judgements, though unwarranted as they may be. You may also have cause for concern because you've posted on this site--FBI examiners read it--hell, that's what brought me here.
Third, is the fact that your INC is in national security, which automatically raises red flags. It's one thing to be INC on the suitability/drugs portion of the test, but yours is in national security. One would think the examiner will be especially cautious with you because you were not born on American soil. I know, this is not a fair assumption to make on the FBI's part, but the agency won't risk it. Again, I am by no means questioning your loyalty to your country, but that's the way the agency will see it--better to be safe than sorry. I know, very wrong and unfair.
Finally, the truth is, the FBI is not all that it's cracked up to be. I too, trusted and respected the agency and thought it was "the tops" in LE. I based this assumption on working with employees of the agency who left 3-4 years ago. It seems there's been a lot of employees who have left within the past few years and their replacements, I must say, are not impressive. I personally find the agency to be disorganized and inept--my faith and confidence in it, shattered. I thank my lucky stars that I didn't end up there. The fact that it has so much power and responsibility, quite frankly, scares the living daylights out of me.
However, to each his own and in the end, you must do what is right for you. You seem like an eloquent, passionate, idealistic individual whose talents would be more appreciated elsewhere. I wish you the best in making your decision and good luck in whatever you decide.
P.S. I'll tell you the same thing I told a friend who ironically, just last night asked me what I thought about her applying for a job that requires a polygraph. Knowing what I know now, I couldn't in good conscience recommend a job to her that requires a pre-employment polygraph and therefore, I respectfully, cannot do the same for you.
Perplexed,
My best advice is to retake the examination, explain to the examiner your thoughts on why your prior examination was a bad experience. Be very honest regarding your experiences growing up and the manner in which you were treated by authority figures. Examiners are sensitive to these issues and do know how to work with you rather than against you. You seem to be getting advice to use coutermeasures, I don't believe that would be your best option.
Even disussing the postings on this board with the examiner and the purpose of venting here and getting advice is being honest and giving 100% of yourself on this, your second examination makes you an honest and respectible individual.
I applaud your statements regarding total honesty and I believe your examiner will do the same, give him a chance to help you pass this examination without problems by being totally honest about your first experience and other life experiences. FBI examiners are well trained and most are excellent examiners.
I wish you the very best, and please, it you do take the step, and 2nd polygraph, report back to the board and tell what happened.
perplexed,
Detector says "you seem to be getting advice to use countermeasures." If he'd read the thread a little closer, he'd see that at least two posters, myself included, recommended against countermeasure use. Not because they don't work, but because you will already be under suspicion before you even walk in the door and they'll be looking for them. It's quite possible you'll be accused of such without even using them. You may have already gotten on the bad side of you examiner for expressing doubt about the poly without even knowing it.
I do agree with detector that Cm's are not your best option. In my opinion, your best option would be to withdraw your application and walk away with an INC--better than a DI, no doubt.
Although Detector has a great deal of faith in FBI poly examiners, based on my experience, I must respectfully disagree with him as I'm sure many posters on this board would concur. Again, from my experience, they're not professional, caring and sensitive as detector would have you believe. My best advice would be not to trust them. My examiners didn't care about the truth and being open and honest with them got me an INC/DI on my permanent file. There was no value placed on that aspect, that's for sure. Don't make the same mistake I did by trusting an FBI poly examiner--you may get burned in the end. Trust me, you are playing a game that you can't win because the rules aren't fair. Even if you decide to take the test again and you pass, you will be subjected to future polys by the agency. It would be wise to think about whether that's a chance you're willing to take. You know the tests don't work and you would always be at the agency's whim if someone wanted rid of you. Personally, I would never want an agency or person to have that unfair advantage over me--things should be fair and square. I've seen the fear in the eyes of someone who has trouble with polys and is subjected to them as a condition of employment-- very unsettling. Personally, that is not a position I would want to be in. I feel very strongly that polys have no business in the pre-employment arena nor should they be relied upon for national security screening. Both huge mistakes with possibly devastating consequences. Not to mention a total waste of taxpayer money.
Much to think about. Good luck with your deliberations.
Polyfool:
Now George and his followers are warning against using counter measures because the examiners might see them. Very good advice and very interesting.
retcopper - I wouldn't get my pneumograph tubes in a tangle over this highly case-specific advice. perplexed's situation is different from the average, first-time polygraph taker's situation. that said, countermeasures certainly have a time and place.
Quote from: retcopper on Mar 20, 2006, 11:31 AMPolyfool:
Now George and his followers are warning against using counter measures because the examiners might see them. Very good advice and very interesting.
retcopper,
If you were a little quicker on the uptake, you'd have fully grasped the reasons why I recommended against countermeasure use for perplexed. Perhaps, I didn't make myself clear. He's already mentioned to the examiner that he's researched polygraphy online, expressed skepticism about it and is INC on national security. It's almost certain he'll be under suspicious before he walks in the door. NOT because examiners can easily recognize cm's--they can't. If they could, they wouldn't accuse examinees of using them who don't even know what they are. Explain that one wise a$$.
Polyfool:
So what you are saying is he might be under suspicion and he will be watched more closely so now is not the time to use cms becaue he will get caught. Very good. I knew you guys would come around.
Quote from: retcopper on Mar 21, 2006, 10:41 AMPolyfool:
So what you are saying is he might be under suspicion and he will be watched more closely so now is not the time to use cms becaue he will get caught. Very good. I knew you guys would come around.
retcopper,
I'm not going to let your antagonistic postings aimed at me get under my skin. It would be easy to jab back with nasty digs, but I'll refrain. I believe in respecting elders even those with misguided views such as your own.
I think I 've made myself clear in terms of the reasons I gave "perplexed" the advice that I did. I won't repeat it again, despite your inability to comprehend. You know good and damn well that examiners can only GUESS that cm's are being used when they're done correctly, which is the reason why they falsely accuse examinees of using them who don't even know what they are.
A word of advice. You might try and add some substance to the board instead of just trying to put words in the mouths of others.
Like you add substance. You never gave a poly test in your life and now you are an expert. BTW I do very well recognizing counter measures.
Rectalcopper,
You sound like a real kewl dude. Since you're such an expert on lying, why don't you edumacate us all about your experience with the poly?
- For instance, what's the biggest case you ever cracked with the poly?
- How many times have you taken one yourself?
- Would you let your son or daughter take one?
- Do you think examiners are better or worse on the east coast or west coast?
- Why do you spend your retirement fighting these tired old battles? If you had any faith in the poly, wouldn't you be confident enough to let posts by the nonbelievers here go unaddressed by you?
Quote from: allegedliar on Mar 23, 2006, 07:19 PMRectalcopper,
You sound like a real kewl dude. Since you're such an expert on lying, why don't you edumacate us all about your experience with the poly?
- For instance, what's the biggest case you ever cracked with the poly?
- How many times have you taken one yourself?
- Would you let your son or daughter take one?
- Do you think examiners are better or worse on the east coast or west coast?
- Why do you spend your retirement fighting these tired old battles? If you had any faith in the poly, wouldn't you be confident enough to let posts by the nonbelievers here go unaddressed by you?
Wow, can I play?
May answers to your questions:
#1, 18 month old girl, raped and beaten so savagely, her legs were both dislocated at the hip. She died from internal bleeding. I took a confession from a neighbor after a failed polygraph examination. BTW, he said it happened because the girl "came onto him."
#2, I have taken two polygraph examinations. One to get on the police department and the other when I was selected to attend polygraph school.
#3, Absolutely. You know when you have two small kids and they get into a fight, each blaming the other? Well, I just threaten them both with having to take daddy's polygraph test and the actual guilty party always fesses up. Every parent should be issued a polygraph instrument.
#4, Hmmm, good question. I really don't know if the examiners are better on one coast or the other. I do think the women are prettier on the west coast (but don't tell my wife) ;D
Regards,
Nonombre
Hi,
Nobody asked you, but since you butted in, Nobrain ...
#1 So, you're telling me that with all that evidence from the crime itself, you are that crappy of a cop that you still had to rely on a polygraph to crack a case? You must totally suck. Failed your appeal to the heartstrings.
#2 In your poly, you were in fact telling the truth then when you responded affirmatively that you are a dumbass who would faithfully rely on the polygraph to prosecute people, rather than physical evidence.
#3 And so polygraphy is child's play? You're a sick father figure and I'd never let my kids near you. If you parent by deception and intimidation, you're doing your children a real disservice, you creep.
#4 Ah, this question is the clincher -- and I think it's why Retcopper will not reply, at least honestly if he ever does. He knows what's up. So, retcopper, which coast do you live on? And don't lie now ...
Geez,
Somebody PLEASE tell me what rock this slug crawled out from under... :o
Name calling, such as allegedliar's calling nonombre "Nobrain," "a dumbass," and "a creep" is inappropriate and a violation of AntiPolygraph.org's posting policy (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=1791.msg13605#msg13605). Nonombre's reply to you was also inappropriate, but it did not come without provocation.
All are requested to keep it civil. Strong disagreement and vigorous debate are welcome; personal attacks are not.
1. Polygraphed a subject who denied shaking an infant and killing him. He failed my poly and gave me a confession. Hold up man shot and killed two customers, failed my exam and gave a confession and two other homicides are solved.
2. I've taken 2 exams.
3. Would test my kids to see if they smoke. I'll let you have fun with this one and let you decide if my nose is growing.
4. What difference does that make.
5. I still do polys. I vist this site to be amused by people like you and to talk to mature people who have a genuine interest in poly.
Quote from: retcopper on Mar 24, 2006, 11:35 AM
1. Polygraphed a subject who denied shaking an infant and killing him. He failed my poly and gave me a confession. Hold up man shot and killed two customers, failed my exam and gave a confession and two other homicides are solved.
...
Listen - few reasonable people would question the effectiveness of the polygraph as an interrogative tool. I agree it can be tremendously useful when used as part (not all) of an investigation - particularly on ignorant thugs who couldn't tell the difference between an fMRI and a colander (see below).
No question: the polygraph community has successfully built up this unflappable mythos that polygraphs somehow transcend the human mind to get to the truth. We all know that's not the case. The polygraph works best when the party being polygraphed believes it works best. If the examiners who browse this site disagree with that, you're either fools or facetious.
That said, I agree the polygraph has a place in society. I'm realistic enough to realize that the polygraph community, top to bottom, is a multimillion dollar one - from the equipment, to the schools, to the lucrative government work. This profession, like any other, puts food in mouths, and is a source of pride for the many folks who practice it.
But it's important to make sure that the poly's role in society is a limited one - one where 1) its use is "incident-specific" - for example, crimes where the GKT (which is less flawed than the CQT) can be used. And where 2) the benefit of passing is equal in weight to the potential harm of failing. In the criminal context, this is generally the case: if you pass, you're not exactly exonerated - the investigation continues if you're a suspect. If you fail, the information is inadmissible.
Use of the polygraph in a pre-employment screening situation is a gross misjudgment on the part of the government, however. Passing means the background check continues - you gain little of value other than continuing in the security screening. Failing, however, in many cases means a lifetime ban from reapplying with the agency (often incongruous with the agency's own screening policies), and sometimes a compete ban from sensitive gov't work. This is also the case for current gov't employees. You pass, you keep your job. Fail, and your career is effectively over.
(http://www.snopes.com/legal/graphics/colander.jpg)
Antrella:
I agree preemployments are less accurate than specific tests and a thorough background check should always attempt to resolve any contested issues. I disageree with the firing of emplyees who fail periodic polys. These should aslo be backed up by some other evidence. But, this is only my opinion. I think the feds probably use more periodic testing than the city, county or state agencies. I would think that they have some other evidence in addition to the poly before they dismiss someone.
Could not connect to your link at bottom of your page.
Quote from: retcopper on Mar 23, 2006, 03:51 PMLike you add substance. You never gave a poly test in your life and now you are an expert. BTW I do very well recognizing counter measures.
Grow up. I never said I was an expert nor have I ever implied such. However, I know enough about polygraphs to know they don't work. Of course, I've never given a polygraph. Why would I? I have a job that I can be proud of.
You do very well recognizing cm's? Yeah, that's what they all say.
BTW, I won't respond to any more of your posts as they are nothing but a total waste of my time.
Quote from: retcopper on Mar 24, 2006, 04:44 PMAntrella:
I agree preemployments are less accurate than specific tests and a thorough background check should always attempt to resolve any contested issues. .
Many people never get this opportunity.
Quote from: nonombre on Mar 23, 2006, 10:46 PM#3, Absolutely. You know when you have two small kids and they get into a fight, each blaming the other? Well, I just threaten them both with having to take daddy's polygraph test and the actual guilty party always fesses up. Every parent should be issued a polygraph instrument.
Nonombre,
I believe the intent of the question was to determine if you would allow your child to undergo a polygraph examination if there were negative consequences should he or she fail.
Suppose, for example, you had a college-age child who attended school in a different state from where you live. For whatever reason, he or she became a suspect for a serious crime. The local police agency, with which you are completely unfamiliar, wants to polygraph your child during the course of their investigation.
Your child has told you they have absolutely nothing to do with this crime, and you fully believe them. Do you think you would unhesitatingly tell them to take the polygraph, knowing that as long as they tell the truth they will be eliminated as a suspect?
I don't see how an ethical polygraph examiner who truly believes in the accuracy of the polygraph process could give any advice other than, "Take the polygraph and tell the truth. If you do that you will be instantly exonerated and you can go on with your life."
Sergeant,
Of course you are right. My original answer was definately "tongue in cheek." ;)
I would in fact advise my teenage child to undergo the polygraph examination. But in all fairness, I would advise him/her to take the advice of several of the folks who have posted on this site.
First of all, I would have my attorney monitor the examination. I have conducted MANY polygraph examinations with a defense attorney watching me from behind a two-way mirror. This has NEVER bothered me, for I am an ETHICAL polygraph examiner.
Since I record all my polygraph examinations, I would expect my child's examination to be recorded.
Next, if I could not QC the polygraph exam myself (I would after all be the father of the suspect) I would ask for an independent QC of the charts. Once again, I have provided my charts to defense experts on many occasions. This has also never bothered me. The only thing I ask is that the examiner reviewing my work by properly licensed in the state and have all current training and certifications. If like so many other forensic sciences the situation deteriorates into a "battle of the experts," in court or other hearing, I can accept that.
Lastly, I would tell my child that if he fails, I would expect him to come clean with the examiner, the attorney, and me. After all, in the end, we all must take responsibility for our actions.
You might not believe what I said in my last paragraph, and that is of course your right, but I meant everything I just said.
Regards,
Nonombre
NoNombre,
Your post is most impressive, But the post presents an opportunity for some research. If you QC'd the charts on your kid, and you saw that they showed no deception, but the polygrapher who gave the test started into interrogation saying that the kid was deceptive. What is your recourse ? Can you intervene ?
Interesting supposition to answer ? Your reply should be most interesting ?
Regards ...
retcopper,
I don't think anyone on even this board would say that the polygraph cannot aid in getting people to confess to things. WHat we are mostly saying is that while your anecdotal evidence is compelling for explaining why you find the polygraph a useful tool, the truth is you have no idea how many people over the years perhaps were judged falsely or got away with lying.
I suppose we could find a case for every one of your stories that would show where an innocent person was ravaged by police for failing a polygraph. You could find many links to such events on these forums. Many of us are angered by the notion that polygraphists are OK with this collateral damage.
Bill:
I guess we will have to bite the bullet until something else better comes along. (I know that is going to piss a lot of people off.) Like any other profession we continually have to improve training and upgrade standards. I respectfully disagree with you about the numbers of people who post here who say they have been wronged. While neither one of us can prove our point I would bet that many who complain here are not telling the "whole story" concerning their polygraph experiences. I am not defending any bad or renegade polygraphists. I know they exist. But, by the same token your side has to use commn sense when defending every anti poly story that appears here.
Quote from: EosJupiter on Mar 30, 2006, 03:30 AMNoNombre,
Your post is most impressive, But the post presents an opportunity for some research. If you QC'd the charts on your kid, and you saw that they showed no deception, but the polygrapher who gave the test started into interrogation saying that the kid was deceptive. What is your recourse ? Can you intervene ?
Interesting supposition to answer ? Your reply should be most interesting ?
Regards ...
Eos,
Good question but the situation would probably not unfold that way. What would probably happen if the examiner found my kid deceptive, he would interrogate before any opposing interest reviewed the charts. The defense polygraph expert is generally not present during the original exam.
If my kid was not guilty and if the examiner had actually made a mistake, that would come out later.
Would I be worried that one of my kids would be browbeat into a "false confession?"..
Hmmm...
Naw, the little monsters don't even confess to the things they ARE guilty of... ::)
Regards,
Nonombre
NoNombre,
I found much humor in your post. I snorted coffee out my nose and dam near fell out of my chair laughing on your last comment. thanks !!! :D
Regards